To je moje profesionalni deformace :-)

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
>
> Kostasi,
>
> jak upozornil Melvyn, mozna ze bychom do toho, jak formuluje sve
> citaty, nemeli Tomasi Edisonovi moc mluvit:
>
>
http://www.google.cz/search?hl=cs&source=hp&q=Opportunity+is+missed+by+most+peop\
le+because+it+is+dressed+in+overalls+and+looks+like+work.+Thomas+A.+Edison&gbv=2\
&oq=Opportunity+is+missed+by+most+people+because+it+is+dressed+in+overalls+and+l\
ooks+like+work.+Thomas+A.+Edison&gs_l=heirloom-hp.12...4495.4495.0.6041.1.1.0.0.\
0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c.1.9eWVy9cSiCg
>
> M
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Kostas" <kzgafas@...>
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 27.2.2013 15:28:40
> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Monterky
> > Thanks to all of you. I finally used "overalls", but looking at a
> >different part of this sentence, making it more catchy quote something
> >tells me to reword it as: Most people miss their
> >opportunity.....instead of ...Opportunity is missed by most people...
> >
> >K.
> >
> >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" wrote:
> >>
> >> > they unanimously said 'overalls' or maybe 'boiler suit'.
> >>
> >> "Overalls" works best here, I think.
> >>
> >> Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in
> >overalls and looks like work. Thomas A. Edison
> >>
> >> BR
> >>
> >> Melvyn
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Kostas" <kzgafas@...> wrote:
>
> To je moje profesionalni deformace :-)

Une deformation professionnelle, c'est ca ? = Goes with the job, huh?
http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/d%E9formation+professionnelle.\
html

Or occupational bias?

BR

Melvyn

From a medical report

kouři stále - "jak se namane" - 20 cig za den

I'm guessing: whatever he can lay his hands on?

Thanks for any suggestions!

sounds more like "when opportunity arises"

whatever he can lay his hands on would be 'co se namane'?


M
------ Original Message ------
From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...>
To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 28.2.2013 12:12:21
Subject: [Czechlist] jak se namane
> From a medical report
>
>kouři stále - "jak se namane" - 20 cig za den
>
>I'm guessing: whatever he can lay his hands on?
>
>Thanks for any suggestions!
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks - so basically chain smoker. It is probably a last attempt at humour from
the patient who is lying on his deathbed. Exitus letalis soon follows.

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
>
> sounds more like "when opportunity arises"
>
> whatever he can lay his hands on would be 'co se namane'?
>
>
> M
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...>
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 28.2.2013 12:12:21
> Subject: [Czechlist] jak se namane
> > From a medical report
> >
> >kouři stále - "jak se namane" - 20 cig za den
> >
> >I'm guessing: whatever he can lay his hands on?
> >
> >Thanks for any suggestions!
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Exactly. Or "how does he come by..."

Gerry

On 28 February 2013 11:12, wustpisk <gerry.vickers@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> From a medical report
>
> kouři stále - "jak se namane" - 20 cig za den
>
> I'm guessing: whatever he can lay his hands on?
>
> Thanks for any suggestions!
>
>
>



--
7 Old Shoreham Road
Brighton
Sussex
BN1 5DQ
U.K.

Tel/fax: ++ 44 1273208484

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I bow to this wisdom ;) except that I'd say "whenever the opportunity
arises"

Gerald

On 28 February 2013 11:32, Matej Klimes <mklimes@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> sounds more like "when opportunity arises"
>
> whatever he can lay his hands on would be 'co se namane'?
>
>
> M
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "wustpisk" gerry.vickers@...>
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 28.2.2013 12:12:21
> Subject: [Czechlist] jak se namane
> > From a medical report
> >
> >kouři stále - "jak se namane" - 20 cig za den
> >
> >I'm guessing: whatever he can lay his hands on?
> >
> >Thanks for any suggestions!
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
7 Old Shoreham Road
Brighton
Sussex
BN1 5DQ
U.K.

Tel/fax: ++ 44 1273208484

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, actually, 20 cigs a day doesn't sound that bad to me (non-smoker,
but heavy smokers go through two packets a day, don't they?)... same
goes for chain smoking, if you chain smoke, you're bound to end up with
more than 20 a day..

That's why I said when, not whenever (my first choice), because
whenever suggests any time all the time..

My feeling is that he was trying to make it sound better, maybe he does
chain smoke and goes through two packs a day, but 'jak se namane'
sounds like - when other people are smoking, when I have a bit of time,
or something  like that to me...

Anyway, not terribly important, but it doesn't sound like a super heavy
smoker (feel like I'm defending smoking now:)

M
------ Original Message ------
From: "Gerald Turner" <turner.gerald@...>
To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 28.2.2013 12:43:01
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] jak se namane
> I bow to this wisdom ;) except that I'd say "whenever the opportunity
>arises"
>
>Gerald
>
>On 28 February 2013 11:32, Matej Klimes mklimes@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> sounds more like "when opportunity arises"
>>
>> whatever he can lay his hands on would be 'co se namane'?
>>
>>
>> M
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "wustpisk" gerry.vickers@...>
>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: 28.2.2013 12:12:21
>> Subject: [Czechlist] jak se namane
>> > From a medical report
>> >
>> >kouři stále - "jak se namane" - 20 cig za den
>> >
>> >I'm guessing: whatever he can lay his hands on?
>> >
>> >Thanks for any suggestions!
>> >
>> >
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>7 Old Shoreham Road
>Brighton
>Sussex
>BN1 5DQ
>U.K.
>
>Tel/fax: ++ 44 1273208484
>
>To see a World in a Grain of Sand
>And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
>Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
>And Eternity in an hour.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:

> Une deformation professionnelle, c'est ca ? = Goes with the job, huh?
>
http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/d%E9formation+professionnelle.\
html
>
> Or occupational bias?


or maybe occupational ailment, disorder, quirk, reflex...

job conditioning
force of habit at work,


See also Veblen's concept of "trained incapacity", Dewey's notion of
"occupational psychosis" or Warnotte's view of "professional deformation"


Or use the French deformation professionelle.

Sir Oliver Wright, who served as ambassador to
Germany and the United States, describes the phenomenon
as "déformation professionelle"—the skewing of someone's
outlook by his career imperatives.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/chan154.pdf

BR

Melvyn

CZECHLIST - kde dostanes odpoved driv nez polozis otazku. :-)

Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a "professional deformity"
for years.

It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the anglophone mind that
much, as is schadenfreude.

Jamie

On Feb 28, 2013, at 1:56 PM, Melvyn wrote:

>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
>
>> Une deformation professionnelle, c'est ca ? = Goes with the job, huh?
>>
http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/d%E9formation+professionnelle.\
html
>>
>> Or occupational bias?
>
>
> or maybe occupational ailment, disorder, quirk, reflex...
>
> job conditioning
> force of habit at work,
>
>
> See also Veblen's concept of "trained incapacity", Dewey's notion of
"occupational psychosis" or Warnotte's view of "professional deformation"
>
>
> Or use the French deformation professionelle.
>
> Sir Oliver Wright, who served as ambassador to
> Germany and the United States, describes the phenomenon
> as "deformation professionelle"?the skewing of someone's
> outlook by his career imperatives.
> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/chan154.pdf
>
> BR
>
> Melvyn
>
> CZECHLIST - kde dostanes odpoved driv nez polozis otazku. :-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
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--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
> Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a "professional deformity"
for years.

Well sure, I have also heard it called a professional deformation, which at
least gets a decent number of hits on the search engines, but these strike me as
obvious calques from the French. I mean...would anyone (outside the field of
psychiatry) normally talk of personal traits as deformities or deformations? Oh,
sorry for being a bit on edge today. It is my personal deformity. :-)


> It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the anglophone mind that
much, as is schadenfreude.

Gloating. Glee.

BR

Melvyn

Is "professional deformity" any worse than "schadenfreude"?  At least the calque
from French is not opaque.

When I'm talking to people I think won't know the concept, I say "some
personality quirk you've got because of your job."  If they still don't get it,
I say, "Like the policeman who's suspicious of everybody or the teacher who
talks to adults as if they're children."

Jamie

On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Melvyn wrote:

>
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>> Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a "professional deformity"
for years.
>
> Well sure, I have also heard it called a professional deformation, which at
least gets a decent number of hits on the search engines, but these strike me as
obvious calques from the French. I mean...would anyone (outside the field of
psychiatry) normally talk of personal traits as deformities or deformations? Oh,
sorry for being a bit on edge today. It is my personal deformity. :-)
>
>
>> It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the anglophone mind that
much, as is schadenfreude.
>
> Gloating. Glee.
>
> BR
>
> Melvyn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
Czechlist@...
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> Is "professional deformity" any worse than "schadenfreude"?  At least the
calque from French is not opaque.

The more solutions, the merrier, AFAIAC. Calques included.

Harrap's New Standard French and English Dictionary defines deformation
professionnelle as ''professional idiosyncrasy; vocational bias.''
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/08/27/magazine/on-language-succinctly-spoken.html

>
> When I'm talking to people I think won't know the concept, I say "some
personality quirk you've got because of your job."  If they still don't get it,
I say, "Like the policeman who's suspicious of everybody or the teacher who
talks to adults as if they're children."

"It's what your job does to you."

"A newsagent will take one look at you and think: 'ah yes, Daily Mail and
something for the weekend, sir.'"

BR

Melvyn

What's wrong with the old 'occupational hazard' - seems to be used
quite widely for what we'd call 'profesionalni deformace' - in a
sarcastic way of course, but I think we almost always use profesionalni
deformace in a sarcastic way... whenever I've heard occupational hazard
used by ENG speakers (direct experience, comedy, Tv shows, novels), it
was always on par with what we'd say, i.e. a self depreciating, argh we
all do these things, or here you go, can't expect much else from a
(teacher, doctor, linguist...)

Some of the the French bits from Melvyn's post sounded a bit different,
like French had a special term for all sorts of things that go on in a
workplace/in professional people's minds (wouldn't they just..), but I
feel that Czech and English (at least BR and AFAIK) share a/n (somewhat
sarcastic) approach here, i.e. whenever this concept is mentioned, it's
meant to be a put-down, a sarcastic remark (more often than not about
oneself) in the direction of.. here I go again, shouldn't bother but
that's what we (teachers, doctors, linguists..) tend to do/say...

Is this just me reading too much into it, or would (some) NS's see my
point here?

Matej
------ Original Message ------
From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...>
To: czechlist@...
Sent: 28.2.2013 21:32:11
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
> Is "professional deformity" any worse than "schadenfreude"? At least
>the calque from French is not opaque.
>
>When I'm talking to people I think won't know the concept, I say "some
>personality quirk you've got because of your job." If they still don't
>get it, I say, "Like the policeman who's suspicious of everybody or
>the teacher who talks to adults as if they're children."
>
>Jamie
>
>On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Melvyn wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner wrote:
>>> Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a "professional
>deformity" for years.
>>
>> Well sure, I have also heard it called a professional deformation,
>which at least gets a decent number of hits on the search engines, but
>these strike me as obvious calques from the French. I mean...would
>anyone (outside the field of psychiatry) normally talk of personal
>traits as deformities or deformations? Oh, sorry for being a bit on
>edge today. It is my personal deformity. :-)
>>
>>
>>> It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the anglophone
>mind that much, as is schadenfreude.
>>
>> Gloating. Glee.
>>
>> BR
>>
>> Melvyn
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Czechlist mailing list
>> Czechlist@...
>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>_______________________________________________
>Czechlist mailing list
>Czechlist@...
>http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Occupational hazard is completely different from professional deformity.

A professional deformity is a psychological quirk caused by one's job.  It
generally does not pose a hazard.

An occupational hazard is a risk of injury, financial ruin or some other problem
posed by one's job, not a psychological quirk.  A typical example:  On a crowded
mat in an aikido dojo, a person swung me around without looking where he was
going, and another guy's head and mine collided full speed, giving me a
concussion.  I get to the hospital, and the first thing the doctor says is,
"Occupational hazard, huh?"  That has nothing to do with a profesionalni
deformace.

Anyway, if you guy's can accept the EU term "harmonization" in senses that have
nothing to do with music, I can't see why you object to "professional deformity"
as a calque from French.  I sense some inconsistency here.

Jamie

On Feb 28, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:

> What's wrong with the old 'occupational hazard' - seems to be used
> quite widely for what we'd call 'profesionalni deformace' - in a
> sarcastic way of course, but I think we almost always use profesionalni
> deformace in a sarcastic way... whenever I've heard occupational hazard
> used by ENG speakers (direct experience, comedy, Tv shows, novels), it
> was always on par with what we'd say, i.e. a self depreciating, argh we
> all do these things, or here you go, can't expect much else from a
> (teacher, doctor, linguist...)
>
> Some of the the French bits from Melvyn's post sounded a bit different,
> like French had a special term for all sorts of things that go on in a
> workplace/in professional people's minds (wouldn't they just..), but I
> feel that Czech and English (at least BR and AFAIK) share a/n (somewhat
> sarcastic) approach here, i.e. whenever this concept is mentioned, it's
> meant to be a put-down, a sarcastic remark (more often than not about
> oneself) in the direction of.. here I go again, shouldn't bother but
> that's what we (teachers, doctors, linguists..) tend to do/say...
>
> Is this just me reading too much into it, or would (some) NS's see my
> point here?
>
> Matej
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...>
> To: czechlist@...
> Sent: 28.2.2013 21:32:11
> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
>> Is "professional deformity" any worse than "schadenfreude"? At least
>> the calque from French is not opaque.
>>
>> When I'm talking to people I think won't know the concept, I say "some
>> personality quirk you've got because of your job." If they still don't
>> get it, I say, "Like the policeman who's suspicious of everybody or
>> the teacher who talks to adults as if they're children."
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Melvyn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner wrote:
>>>> Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a "professional
>> deformity" for years.
>>>
>>> Well sure, I have also heard it called a professional deformation,
>> which at least gets a decent number of hits on the search engines, but
>> these strike me as obvious calques from the French. I mean...would
>> anyone (outside the field of psychiatry) normally talk of personal
>> traits as deformities or deformations? Oh, sorry for being a bit on
>> edge today. It is my personal deformity. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the anglophone
>> mind that much, as is schadenfreude.
>>>
>>> Gloating. Glee.
>>>
>>> BR
>>>
>>> Melvyn
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>> Czechlist@...
>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Czechlist mailing list
>> Czechlist@...
>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


_______________________________________________
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Czechlist@...
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I don't know if I can properly describe this, but..

A teacher starts to patronise someone (an adult) at a party..

A doctor might start talking about some obscure (and quite disgusting)
condition..

A lawyer might say 'we'll all see each other in front of the court one
day'..

... OK, struggling here, let's just say things that may seem funny
(sarcastic funny) to fellow teachers/doctors/lawyers but not
necessarily to people in other professions..

when nobody laughs or someone takes an offence, they'll shrug it off
and say 'profesionalni deformace/occupational hazard' I guess... or
someone else may say that about them... or they may add that (PD/OH) at
the end of their 'joke' to avoid such outcome and still appear funny...

At least that's a situation that I imagine we'd use 'profesionalni
deformace' in in Czech and (unless I was hallucinating), I've
heard/read the same in (BR) English??

Put me out my misery someone

M


------ Original Message ------
From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...>
To: czechlist@...
Sent: 1.3.2013 0:00:33
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
> Occupational hazard is completely different from professional
>deformity.
>
>A professional deformity is a psychological quirk caused by one's job.
>It generally does not pose a hazard.
>
>An occupational hazard is a risk of injury, financial ruin or some
>other problem posed by one's job, not a psychological quirk. A typical
>example: On a crowded mat in an aikido dojo, a person swung me around
>without looking where he was going, and another guy's head and mine
>collided full speed, giving me a concussion. I get to the hospital,
>and the first thing the doctor says is, "Occupational hazard, huh?"
>That has nothing to do with a profesionalni deformace.
>
>Anyway, if you guy's can accept the EU term "harmonization" in senses
>that have nothing to do with music, I can't see why you object to
>"professional deformity" as a calque from French. I sense some
>inconsistency here.
>
>Jamie
>
>On Feb 28, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
>
>> What's wrong with the old 'occupational hazard' - seems to be used
>> quite widely for what we'd call 'profesionalni deformace' - in a
>> sarcastic way of course, but I think we almost always use
>profesionalni
>> deformace in a sarcastic way... whenever I've heard occupational
>hazard
>> used by ENG speakers (direct experience, comedy, Tv shows, novels),
>it
>> was always on par with what we'd say, i.e. a self depreciating, argh
>we
>> all do these things, or here you go, can't expect much else from a
>> (teacher, doctor, linguist...)
>>
>> Some of the the French bits from Melvyn's post sounded a bit
>different,
>> like French had a special term for all sorts of things that go on in
>a
>> workplace/in professional people's minds (wouldn't they just..), but
>I
>> feel that Czech and English (at least BR and AFAIK) share a/n
>(somewhat
>> sarcastic) approach here, i.e. whenever this concept is mentioned,
>it's
>> meant to be a put-down, a sarcastic remark (more often than not
>about
>> oneself) in the direction of.. here I go again, shouldn't bother but
>> that's what we (teachers, doctors, linguists..) tend to do/say...
>>
>> Is this just me reading too much into it, or would (some) NS's see
>my
>> point here?
>>
>> Matej
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "James Kirchner" czechlist@...>
>> To: czechlist@...
>> Sent: 28.2.2013 21:32:11
>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
>>> Is "professional deformity" any worse than "schadenfreude"? At
>least
>>> the calque from French is not opaque.
>>>
>>> When I'm talking to people I think won't know the concept, I say
>"some
>>> personality quirk you've got because of your job." If they still
>don't
>>> get it, I say, "Like the policeman who's suspicious of everybody or
>>> the teacher who talks to adults as if they're children."
>>>
>>> Jamie
>>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Melvyn wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner wrote:
>>>>> Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a
>"professional
>>> deformity" for years.
>>>>
>>>> Well sure, I have also heard it called a professional deformation,
>>> which at least gets a decent number of hits on the search engines,
>but
>>> these strike me as obvious calques from the French. I mean...would
>>> anyone (outside the field of psychiatry) normally talk of personal
>>> traits as deformities or deformations? Oh, sorry for being a bit on
>>> edge today. It is my personal deformity. :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the anglophone
>>> mind that much, as is schadenfreude.
>>>>
>>>> Gloating. Glee.
>>>>
>>>> BR
>>>>
>>>> Melvyn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>>> Czechlist@...
>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>> Czechlist@...
>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Czechlist mailing list
>> Czechlist@...
>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>_______________________________________________
>Czechlist mailing list
>Czechlist@...
>http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The concept is different.

The anglophone who says, "Occupational hazard," is saying, "Situations like this
are one of the problems caused by my profession."  It is not a direct reference
to the mentality the profession has caused him to have, but to the situation
he's liable to get into because of it.  It's not about the mental cause, but
about the result in the outside world.

A Czech who says, "Profesionalni deformace," is saying, "The mentality I have
because of my profession made me do this."  It is a reference to the mental
quirk that caused him to get into the situation, not to the situation.

So "profesionalni deformace" is more about the mental cause, and "occupational
hazard" is more about the external result.

Cutting off a finger with a saw is not a "profesionalni deformace", but it is an
occupational hazard.  Occupational hazards largely come from outside your head. 
Professional deformities are always inside your head.

Jamie

On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:

> I don't know if I can properly describe this, but..
>
> A teacher starts to patronise someone (an adult) at a party..
>
> A doctor might start talking about some obscure (and quite disgusting)
> condition..
>
> A lawyer might say 'we'll all see each other in front of the court one
> day'..
>
> ... OK, struggling here, let's just say things that may seem funny
> (sarcastic funny) to fellow teachers/doctors/lawyers but not
> necessarily to people in other professions..
>
> when nobody laughs or someone takes an offence, they'll shrug it off
> and say 'profesionalni deformace/occupational hazard' I guess... or
> someone else may say that about them... or they may add that (PD/OH) at
> the end of their 'joke' to avoid such outcome and still appear funny...
>
> At least that's a situation that I imagine we'd use 'profesionalni
> deformace' in in Czech and (unless I was hallucinating), I've
> heard/read the same in (BR) English??
>
> Put me out my misery someone
>
> M
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...>
> To: czechlist@...
> Sent: 1.3.2013 0:00:33
> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
>> Occupational hazard is completely different from professional
>> deformity.
>>
>> A professional deformity is a psychological quirk caused by one's job.
>> It generally does not pose a hazard.
>>
>> An occupational hazard is a risk of injury, financial ruin or some
>> other problem posed by one's job, not a psychological quirk. A typical
>> example: On a crowded mat in an aikido dojo, a person swung me around
>> without looking where he was going, and another guy's head and mine
>> collided full speed, giving me a concussion. I get to the hospital,
>> and the first thing the doctor says is, "Occupational hazard, huh?"
>> That has nothing to do with a profesionalni deformace.
>>
>> Anyway, if you guy's can accept the EU term "harmonization" in senses
>> that have nothing to do with music, I can't see why you object to
>> "professional deformity" as a calque from French. I sense some
>> inconsistency here.
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
>>
>>> What's wrong with the old 'occupational hazard' - seems to be used
>>> quite widely for what we'd call 'profesionalni deformace' - in a
>>> sarcastic way of course, but I think we almost always use
>> profesionalni
>>> deformace in a sarcastic way... whenever I've heard occupational
>> hazard
>>> used by ENG speakers (direct experience, comedy, Tv shows, novels),
>> it
>>> was always on par with what we'd say, i.e. a self depreciating, argh
>> we
>>> all do these things, or here you go, can't expect much else from a
>>> (teacher, doctor, linguist...)
>>>
>>> Some of the the French bits from Melvyn's post sounded a bit
>> different,
>>> like French had a special term for all sorts of things that go on in
>> a
>>> workplace/in professional people's minds (wouldn't they just..), but
>> I
>>> feel that Czech and English (at least BR and AFAIK) share a/n
>> (somewhat
>>> sarcastic) approach here, i.e. whenever this concept is mentioned,
>> it's
>>> meant to be a put-down, a sarcastic remark (more often than not
>> about
>>> oneself) in the direction of.. here I go again, shouldn't bother but
>>> that's what we (teachers, doctors, linguists..) tend to do/say...
>>>
>>> Is this just me reading too much into it, or would (some) NS's see
>> my
>>> point here?
>>>
>>> Matej
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "James Kirchner" czechlist@...>
>>> To: czechlist@...
>>> Sent: 28.2.2013 21:32:11
>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
>>>> Is "professional deformity" any worse than "schadenfreude"? At
>> least
>>>> the calque from French is not opaque.
>>>>
>>>> When I'm talking to people I think won't know the concept, I say
>> "some
>>>> personality quirk you've got because of your job." If they still
>> don't
>>>> get it, I say, "Like the policeman who's suspicious of everybody or
>>>> the teacher who talks to adults as if they're children."
>>>>
>>>> Jamie
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Melvyn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner wrote:
>>>>>> Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a
>> "professional
>>>> deformity" for years.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well sure, I have also heard it called a professional deformation,
>>>> which at least gets a decent number of hits on the search engines,
>> but
>>>> these strike me as obvious calques from the French. I mean...would
>>>> anyone (outside the field of psychiatry) normally talk of personal
>>>> traits as deformities or deformations? Oh, sorry for being a bit on
>>>> edge today. It is my personal deformity. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the anglophone
>>>> mind that much, as is schadenfreude.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gloating. Glee.
>>>>>
>>>>> BR
>>>>>
>>>>> Melvyn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>>>> Czechlist@...
>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>>> Czechlist@...
>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>> Czechlist@...
>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Czechlist mailing list
>> Czechlist@...
>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
Czechlist@...
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

Hi,

I've heard "occupational hazard" used ironically to describe the "mental
illness" (usually some sort of obsessive-compulsive behaviour or altered
perception of reality) one can get from a job.

Warped is another option - as in being warped by your job.

- Liz, warped


--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> The concept is different.
>
> The anglophone who says, "Occupational hazard," is saying, "Situations like
this are one of the problems caused by my profession."  It is not a direct
reference to the mentality the profession has caused him to have, but to the
situation he's liable to get into because of it.  It's not about the mental
cause, but about the result in the outside world.
>
> A Czech who says, "Profesionalni deformace," is saying, "The mentality I have
because of my profession made me do this."  It is a reference to the mental
quirk that caused him to get into the situation, not to the situation.
>
> So "profesionalni deformace" is more about the mental cause, and "occupational
hazard" is more about the external result.
>
> Cutting off a finger with a saw is not a "profesionalni deformace", but it is
an occupational hazard.  Occupational hazards largely come from outside your
head.  Professional deformities are always inside your head.
>
> Jamie
>
> On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
>
> > I don't know if I can properly describe this, but..
> >
> > A teacher starts to patronise someone (an adult) at a party..
> >
> > A doctor might start talking about some obscure (and quite disgusting)
> > condition..
> >
> > A lawyer might say 'we'll all see each other in front of the court one
> > day'..
> >
> > ... OK, struggling here, let's just say things that may seem funny
> > (sarcastic funny) to fellow teachers/doctors/lawyers but not
> > necessarily to people in other professions..
> >
> > when nobody laughs or someone takes an offence, they'll shrug it off
> > and say 'profesionalni deformace/occupational hazard' I guess... or
> > someone else may say that about them... or they may add that (PD/OH) at
> > the end of their 'joke' to avoid such outcome and still appear funny...
> >
> > At least that's a situation that I imagine we'd use 'profesionalni
> > deformace' in in Czech and (unless I was hallucinating), I've
> > heard/read the same in (BR) English??
> >
> > Put me out my misery someone
> >
> > M
> >
> >
> > ------ Original Message ------
> > From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...>
> > To: czechlist@...
> > Sent: 1.3.2013 0:00:33
> > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
> >> Occupational hazard is completely different from professional
> >> deformity.
> >>
> >> A professional deformity is a psychological quirk caused by one's job.
> >> It generally does not pose a hazard.
> >>
> >> An occupational hazard is a risk of injury, financial ruin or some
> >> other problem posed by one's job, not a psychological quirk. A typical
> >> example: On a crowded mat in an aikido dojo, a person swung me around
> >> without looking where he was going, and another guy's head and mine
> >> collided full speed, giving me a concussion. I get to the hospital,
> >> and the first thing the doctor says is, "Occupational hazard, huh?"
> >> That has nothing to do with a profesionalni deformace.
> >>
> >> Anyway, if you guy's can accept the EU term "harmonization" in senses
> >> that have nothing to do with music, I can't see why you object to
> >> "professional deformity" as a calque from French. I sense some
> >> inconsistency here.
> >>
> >> Jamie
> >>
> >> On Feb 28, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
> >>
> >>> What's wrong with the old 'occupational hazard' - seems to be used
> >>> quite widely for what we'd call 'profesionalni deformace' - in a
> >>> sarcastic way of course, but I think we almost always use
> >> profesionalni
> >>> deformace in a sarcastic way... whenever I've heard occupational
> >> hazard
> >>> used by ENG speakers (direct experience, comedy, Tv shows, novels),
> >> it
> >>> was always on par with what we'd say, i.e. a self depreciating, argh
> >> we
> >>> all do these things, or here you go, can't expect much else from a
> >>> (teacher, doctor, linguist...)
> >>>
> >>> Some of the the French bits from Melvyn's post sounded a bit
> >> different,
> >>> like French had a special term for all sorts of things that go on in
> >> a
> >>> workplace/in professional people's minds (wouldn't they just..), but
> >> I
> >>> feel that Czech and English (at least BR and AFAIK) share a/n
> >> (somewhat
> >>> sarcastic) approach here, i.e. whenever this concept is mentioned,
> >> it's
> >>> meant to be a put-down, a sarcastic remark (more often than not
> >> about
> >>> oneself) in the direction of.. here I go again, shouldn't bother but
> >>> that's what we (teachers, doctors, linguists..) tend to do/say...
> >>>
> >>> Is this just me reading too much into it, or would (some) NS's see
> >> my
> >>> point here?
> >>>
> >>> Matej
> >>> ------ Original Message ------
> >>> From: "James Kirchner" czechlist@...>
> >>> To: czechlist@...
> >>> Sent: 28.2.2013 21:32:11
> >>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
> >>>> Is "professional deformity" any worse than "schadenfreude"? At
> >> least
> >>>> the calque from French is not opaque.
> >>>>
> >>>> When I'm talking to people I think won't know the concept, I say
> >> "some
> >>>> personality quirk you've got because of your job." If they still
> >> don't
> >>>> get it, I say, "Like the policeman who's suspicious of everybody or
> >>>> the teacher who talks to adults as if they're children."
> >>>>
> >>>> Jamie
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Melvyn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner wrote:
> >>>>>> Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a
> >> "professional
> >>>> deformity" for years.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well sure, I have also heard it called a professional deformation,
> >>>> which at least gets a decent number of hits on the search engines,
> >> but
> >>>> these strike me as obvious calques from the French. I mean...would
> >>>> anyone (outside the field of psychiatry) normally talk of personal
> >>>> traits as deformities or deformations? Oh, sorry for being a bit on
> >>>> edge today. It is my personal deformity. :-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the anglophone
> >>>> mind that much, as is schadenfreude.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gloating. Glee.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> BR
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Melvyn
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
> >>>>> Czechlist@...
> >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Czechlist mailing list
> >>>> Czechlist@...
> >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Czechlist mailing list
> >>> Czechlist@...
> >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Czechlist mailing list
> >> Czechlist@...
> >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Czechlist mailing list
> > Czechlist@...
> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>

I understand your your point, Jamie, but (unless I am mistaken), this
may be one of those differences between US/BR/Europe - not saying I'm
an authority, just remembering what I've heard over the years.. and
yes, sarcasm is a vital part here and let's be honest, your side of the
pond (should I capitalise that?) is not known to be a big fan of that -
I do feel  certain affinity between Czech and English sarcasm, if you
pardon me, .. there are subtle differences of course, but I never felt
more at home when I was in England and never felt more out of cit (in
this particular context, not saying all was bad in America)... of
course that may all be down to my inexperience/lack of grasp of the
finer points of the lingo at the time, .. but still, something clicked
vs. not clicked in there (and my English became much better by the time
I got to the US of A)... anyway, NOT trying to start an argument, or
saying that mine is the universal truth, just fishing for ideas to see
if my understanding of the thing may resonate with that of others,
maybe?

Really curious now... not sure if I explained myself properly but what
the hell, someone might get what I'm trying to say..

M


------ Original Message ------
From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...>
To: czechlist@...
Sent: 1.3.2013 0:27:05
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
> The concept is different.
>
>The anglophone who says, "Occupational hazard," is saying, "Situations
>like this are one of the problems caused by my profession." It is not
>a direct reference to the mentality the profession has caused him to
>have, but to the situation he's liable to get into because of it. It's
>not about the mental cause, but about the result in the outside world.
>
>A Czech who says, "Profesionalni deformace," is saying, "The mentality
>I have because of my profession made me do this." It is a reference to
>the mental quirk that caused him to get into the situation, not to the
>situation.
>
>So "profesionalni deformace" is more about the mental cause, and
>"occupational hazard" is more about the external result.
>
>Cutting off a finger with a saw is not a "profesionalni deformace",
>but it is an occupational hazard. Occupational hazards largely come
>from outside your head. Professional deformities are always inside
>your head.
>
>Jamie
>
>On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
>
>> I don't know if I can properly describe this, but..
>>
>> A teacher starts to patronise someone (an adult) at a party..
>>
>> A doctor might start talking about some obscure (and quite
>disgusting)
>> condition..
>>
>> A lawyer might say 'we'll all see each other in front of the court
>one
>> day'..
>>
>> ... OK, struggling here, let's just say things that may seem funny
>> (sarcastic funny) to fellow teachers/doctors/lawyers but not
>> necessarily to people in other professions..
>>
>> when nobody laughs or someone takes an offence, they'll shrug it off
>> and say 'profesionalni deformace/occupational hazard' I guess... or
>> someone else may say that about them... or they may add that (PD/OH)
>at
>> the end of their 'joke' to avoid such outcome and still appear
>funny...
>>
>> At least that's a situation that I imagine we'd use 'profesionalni
>> deformace' in in Czech and (unless I was hallucinating), I've
>> heard/read the same in (BR) English??
>>
>> Put me out my misery someone
>>
>> M
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "James Kirchner" czechlist@...>
>> To: czechlist@...
>> Sent: 1.3.2013 0:00:33
>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
>>> Occupational hazard is completely different from professional
>>> deformity.
>>>
>>> A professional deformity is a psychological quirk caused by one's
>job.
>>> It generally does not pose a hazard.
>>>
>>> An occupational hazard is a risk of injury, financial ruin or some
>>> other problem posed by one's job, not a psychological quirk. A
>typical
>>> example: On a crowded mat in an aikido dojo, a person swung me
>around
>>> without looking where he was going, and another guy's head and mine
>>> collided full speed, giving me a concussion. I get to the hospital,
>>> and the first thing the doctor says is, "Occupational hazard, huh?"
>>> That has nothing to do with a profesionalni deformace.
>>>
>>> Anyway, if you guy's can accept the EU term "harmonization" in
>senses
>>> that have nothing to do with music, I can't see why you object to
>>> "professional deformity" as a calque from French. I sense some
>>> inconsistency here.
>>>
>>> Jamie
>>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
>>>
>>>> What's wrong with the old 'occupational hazard' - seems to be used
>>>> quite widely for what we'd call 'profesionalni deformace' - in a
>>>> sarcastic way of course, but I think we almost always use
>>> profesionalni
>>>> deformace in a sarcastic way... whenever I've heard occupational
>>> hazard
>>>> used by ENG speakers (direct experience, comedy, Tv shows,
>novels),
>>> it
>>>> was always on par with what we'd say, i.e. a self depreciating,
>argh
>>> we
>>>> all do these things, or here you go, can't expect much else from a
>>>> (teacher, doctor, linguist...)
>>>>
>>>> Some of the the French bits from Melvyn's post sounded a bit
>>> different,
>>>> like French had a special term for all sorts of things that go on
>in
>>> a
>>>> workplace/in professional people's minds (wouldn't they just..),
>but
>>> I
>>>> feel that Czech and English (at least BR and AFAIK) share a/n
>>> (somewhat
>>>> sarcastic) approach here, i.e. whenever this concept is mentioned,
>>> it's
>>>> meant to be a put-down, a sarcastic remark (more often than not
>>> about
>>>> oneself) in the direction of.. here I go again, shouldn't bother
>but
>>>> that's what we (teachers, doctors, linguists..) tend to do/say...
>>>>
>>>> Is this just me reading too much into it, or would (some) NS's see
>>> my
>>>> point here?
>>>>
>>>> Matej
>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>> From: "James Kirchner" czechlist@...>
>>>> To: czechlist@...
>>>> Sent: 28.2.2013 21:32:11
>>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was:
>Monterky)
>>>>> Is "professional deformity" any worse than "schadenfreude"? At
>>> least
>>>>> the calque from French is not opaque.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I'm talking to people I think won't know the concept, I say
>>> "some
>>>>> personality quirk you've got because of your job." If they still
>>> don't
>>>>> get it, I say, "Like the policeman who's suspicious of everybody
>or
>>>>> the teacher who talks to adults as if they're children."
>>>>>
>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Melvyn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner wrote:
>>>>>>> Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a
>>> "professional
>>>>> deformity" for years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well sure, I have also heard it called a professional
>deformation,
>>>>> which at least gets a decent number of hits on the search
>engines,
>>> but
>>>>> these strike me as obvious calques from the French. I
>mean...would
>>>>> anyone (outside the field of psychiatry) normally talk of
>personal
>>>>> traits as deformities or deformations? Oh, sorry for being a bit
>on
>>>>> edge today. It is my personal deformity. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the
>anglophone
>>>>> mind that much, as is schadenfreude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gloating. Glee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Melvyn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>>>>>
Czechlist@...://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechli\
st
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>>>>
Czechlist@...://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechli\
st
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>>> Czechlist@...
>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>> Czechlist@...
>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Czechlist mailing list
>> Czechlist@...
>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>_______________________________________________
>Czechlist mailing list
>Czechlist@...
>http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>I've heard "occupational hazard" used ironically to describe the
>"mental illness" (usually some sort of obsessive-compulsive behaviour
>or altered perception of reality) one can get from a job.
>
>>Warped is another option - as in being warped by your job.
>
>That's pretty much what I meant...
>>- Liz, warped
>Matej, God knows what..
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know about any UK vs. US difference in the love of sarcasm.  If
anything, I'd expect the British to be more restrained in it, as they are
restrained in many things.  I imagine it depends on who you hang around with.  I
didn't detect any proneness to sarcasm in the Czech Republic that was greater
than anything you find in the US.

If some people are using "occupational hazard" as meaning a type of job-induced
mental illness, which it doesn't actually mean, a number of things could be
happening:

1.  Czechs and other people who know the concept of profesionalni deformace are
interpreting that and occupational hazard as meaning the same thing just because
the respective nations use them in the same situations.  How about an example:

During the velka prestavka at school in Marianky, I was often hungry and had to
run to the corner store for a snack, which I often ate on the street as I rushed
back to school.  People would pass by, see me chewing, and say, "Dobrou chut!" 
Or if a kid walked into my office, and there was food on my desk, the first
thing the kid would say was, "Dobrou chut!"  From this, an American might
surmise that "Dobrou chut!" is a Czech equivalent of "Hi!" spoken in the
morning, because he's seeing it used in situations where Americans would say,
"Hi!" and never, "Bon appetit!"  (Maybe he knows that in China a common morning
greeting is, "Have you eaten yet?")  He'd be wrong.

There are a lot of things that Czechs and English speakers say in the same
situations that nonetheless don't track one to one.

2.  It may be on that the meaning of "occupational hazard" is drifting on one
side of the ocean and not the other, much the way the meaning of "turnover"
drifted in the UK, so that it now means revenue and not what turnover really
means in economic terms.

3.  The meaning may be drifting in more than one country, much as the term
"cover version" has come to mean something much different from what it
originally meant.  I notice that Americans in their 20s to their 40s often give
slightly off interpretations to various words and idioms, largely because
English education deteriorated starting around the mid-1970s and they never got
exposed to enough written language.  (Statistics show that a kid leaving high
school now has a vocabulary half the size of that of his counterpart in the
1950s.)

Jamie

On Feb 28, 2013, at 7:10 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:

> I understand your your point, Jamie, but (unless I am mistaken), this
> may be one of those differences between US/BR/Europe - not saying I'm
> an authority, just remembering what I've heard over the years.. and
> yes, sarcasm is a vital part here and let's be honest, your side of the
> pond (should I capitalise that?) is not known to be a big fan of that -
> I do feel  certain affinity between Czech and English sarcasm, if you
> pardon me, .. there are subtle differences of course, but I never felt
> more at home when I was in England and never felt more out of cit (in
> this particular context, not saying all was bad in America)... of
> course that may all be down to my inexperience/lack of grasp of the
> finer points of the lingo at the time, .. but still, something clicked
> vs. not clicked in there (and my English became much better by the time
> I got to the US of A)... anyway, NOT trying to start an argument, or
> saying that mine is the universal truth, just fishing for ideas to see
> if my understanding of the thing may resonate with that of others,
> maybe?
>
> Really curious now... not sure if I explained myself properly but what
> the hell, someone might get what I'm trying to say..
>
> M
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...>
> To: czechlist@...
> Sent: 1.3.2013 0:27:05
> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
>> The concept is different.
>>
>> The anglophone who says, "Occupational hazard," is saying, "Situations
>> like this are one of the problems caused by my profession." It is not
>> a direct reference to the mentality the profession has caused him to
>> have, but to the situation he's liable to get into because of it. It's
>> not about the mental cause, but about the result in the outside world.
>>
>> A Czech who says, "Profesionalni deformace," is saying, "The mentality
>> I have because of my profession made me do this." It is a reference to
>> the mental quirk that caused him to get into the situation, not to the
>> situation.
>>
>> So "profesionalni deformace" is more about the mental cause, and
>> "occupational hazard" is more about the external result.
>>
>> Cutting off a finger with a saw is not a "profesionalni deformace",
>> but it is an occupational hazard. Occupational hazards largely come
>> from outside your head. Professional deformities are always inside
>> your head.
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know if I can properly describe this, but..
>>>
>>> A teacher starts to patronise someone (an adult) at a party..
>>>
>>> A doctor might start talking about some obscure (and quite
>> disgusting)
>>> condition..
>>>
>>> A lawyer might say 'we'll all see each other in front of the court
>> one
>>> day'..
>>>
>>> ... OK, struggling here, let's just say things that may seem funny
>>> (sarcastic funny) to fellow teachers/doctors/lawyers but not
>>> necessarily to people in other professions..
>>>
>>> when nobody laughs or someone takes an offence, they'll shrug it off
>>> and say 'profesionalni deformace/occupational hazard' I guess... or
>>> someone else may say that about them... or they may add that (PD/OH)
>> at
>>> the end of their 'joke' to avoid such outcome and still appear
>> funny...
>>>
>>> At least that's a situation that I imagine we'd use 'profesionalni
>>> deformace' in in Czech and (unless I was hallucinating), I've
>>> heard/read the same in (BR) English??
>>>
>>> Put me out my misery someone
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "James Kirchner" czechlist@...>
>>> To: czechlist@...
>>> Sent: 1.3.2013 0:00:33
>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
>>>> Occupational hazard is completely different from professional
>>>> deformity.
>>>>
>>>> A professional deformity is a psychological quirk caused by one's
>> job.
>>>> It generally does not pose a hazard.
>>>>
>>>> An occupational hazard is a risk of injury, financial ruin or some
>>>> other problem posed by one's job, not a psychological quirk. A
>> typical
>>>> example: On a crowded mat in an aikido dojo, a person swung me
>> around
>>>> without looking where he was going, and another guy's head and mine
>>>> collided full speed, giving me a concussion. I get to the hospital,
>>>> and the first thing the doctor says is, "Occupational hazard, huh?"
>>>> That has nothing to do with a profesionalni deformace.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, if you guy's can accept the EU term "harmonization" in
>> senses
>>>> that have nothing to do with music, I can't see why you object to
>>>> "professional deformity" as a calque from French. I sense some
>>>> inconsistency here.
>>>>
>>>> Jamie
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What's wrong with the old 'occupational hazard' - seems to be used
>>>>> quite widely for what we'd call 'profesionalni deformace' - in a
>>>>> sarcastic way of course, but I think we almost always use
>>>> profesionalni
>>>>> deformace in a sarcastic way... whenever I've heard occupational
>>>> hazard
>>>>> used by ENG speakers (direct experience, comedy, Tv shows,
>> novels),
>>>> it
>>>>> was always on par with what we'd say, i.e. a self depreciating,
>> argh
>>>> we
>>>>> all do these things, or here you go, can't expect much else from a
>>>>> (teacher, doctor, linguist...)
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of the the French bits from Melvyn's post sounded a bit
>>>> different,
>>>>> like French had a special term for all sorts of things that go on
>> in
>>>> a
>>>>> workplace/in professional people's minds (wouldn't they just..),
>> but
>>>> I
>>>>> feel that Czech and English (at least BR and AFAIK) share a/n
>>>> (somewhat
>>>>> sarcastic) approach here, i.e. whenever this concept is mentioned,
>>>> it's
>>>>> meant to be a put-down, a sarcastic remark (more often than not
>>>> about
>>>>> oneself) in the direction of.. here I go again, shouldn't bother
>> but
>>>>> that's what we (teachers, doctors, linguists..) tend to do/say...
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this just me reading too much into it, or would (some) NS's see
>>>> my
>>>>> point here?
>>>>>
>>>>> Matej
>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>> From: "James Kirchner" czechlist@...>
>>>>> To: czechlist@...
>>>>> Sent: 28.2.2013 21:32:11
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was:
>> Monterky)
>>>>>> Is "professional deformity" any worse than "schadenfreude"? At
>>>> least
>>>>>> the calque from French is not opaque.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I'm talking to people I think won't know the concept, I say
>>>> "some
>>>>>> personality quirk you've got because of your job." If they still
>>>> don't
>>>>>> get it, I say, "Like the policeman who's suspicious of everybody
>> or
>>>>>> the teacher who talks to adults as if they're children."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Melvyn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Believe it or not, in English I've heard it called a
>>>> "professional
>>>>>> deformity" for years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well sure, I have also heard it called a professional
>> deformation,
>>>>>> which at least gets a decent number of hits on the search
>> engines,
>>>> but
>>>>>> these strike me as obvious calques from the French. I
>> mean...would
>>>>>> anyone (outside the field of psychiatry) normally talk of
>> personal
>>>>>> traits as deformities or deformations? Oh, sorry for being a bit
>> on
>>>>>> edge today. It is my personal deformity. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's just one of those concepts that doesn't cross the
>> anglophone
>>>>>> mind that much, as is schadenfreude.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gloating. Glee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Melvyn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>>>>>>
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st
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
>>>>>>
Czechlist@...://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechli\
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Czechlist@...
>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
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>Jamie> I don't know about any UK vs. US difference in the love of
>sarcasm. If anything, I'd expect the British to be more restrained in
>it, as they are restrained in many things. I imagine it depends on who
>you hang around with. I didn't detect any proneness to sarcasm in the
>Czech Republic that was greater than anything you find in the US.
>
>I'm more than ready to accept that I was wrong about occupational
>hazard and its use, but sarcasm (as long as we mean the same thing?..
>come on, I'm not alone to say this...)
>
>The real problem may be that 'sarcasm' is a dirty word in the US (in
>my experience) and any use of it is regarded as, don't know, really,
>patronising, foreign, strange? All I know is that things I might have
>said to different people in UK (including builders, bartenders, don't
>know, just about anybody) - which would go down quite well as (maybe
>not a brilliant, but still a joke of sorts), were suddenly bad
>manners/incomprehensible/weird/what the hell? in the US..
>
>Re British use of sarcasm, they may be restrained in certain things,
>but not sarcasm (AFAIK), even at the time restraint was the order of
>the day (sorry, we all know those are long gone), sarcasm was IMHO
>more than alive and kicking even among the most restrained, but again,
>perceptions may differ..
>I'm sure I've read a thing or two on the subject from reliable (from
>this side of the pond, I grant you) sources, of course that may not
>sound reliable enough to you, but try to take it as an outsider's
>opinion.. There may be a comparative something or other thesis on it
>somewhere.. just one look at popular culture would be enough, not
>saying one is worse than another, but the use of sarcasm is surely
>very different in Brit vs. US TV comedy shows, for example..
>Not a subject we're likely to solve/agree on once for all and in a
>single post, I'm sure, though..
>M
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Putting aside men in dresses, the main difference I see in the humor in British
vs. American TV shows is that the British shows have all sorts of situations the
British apparently find hilarious just because an Englishman is trying to stay
polite in a situation where an American would see no reason to.

Give me a couple of examples of sarcasm that would "go over well" in the UK or
CR but not in the US.  I don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Jamie

On Feb 28, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:

>
>> Jamie> I don't know about any UK vs. US difference in the love of
>> sarcasm. If anything, I'd expect the British to be more restrained in
>> it, as they are restrained in many things. I imagine it depends on who
>> you hang around with. I didn't detect any proneness to sarcasm in the
>> Czech Republic that was greater than anything you find in the US.
>>
>> I'm more than ready to accept that I was wrong about occupational
>> hazard and its use, but sarcasm (as long as we mean the same thing?..
>> come on, I'm not alone to say this...)
>>
>> The real problem may be that 'sarcasm' is a dirty word in the US (in
>> my experience) and any use of it is regarded as, don't know, really,
>> patronising, foreign, strange? All I know is that things I might have
>> said to different people in UK (including builders, bartenders, don't
>> know, just about anybody) - which would go down quite well as (maybe
>> not a brilliant, but still a joke of sorts), were suddenly bad
>> manners/incomprehensible/weird/what the hell? in the US..
>>
>> Re British use of sarcasm, they may be restrained in certain things,
>> but not sarcasm (AFAIK), even at the time restraint was the order of
>> the day (sorry, we all know those are long gone), sarcasm was IMHO
>> more than alive and kicking even among the most restrained, but again,
>> perceptions may differ..
>> I'm sure I've read a thing or two on the subject from reliable (from
>> this side of the pond, I grant you) sources, of course that may not
>> sound reliable enough to you, but try to take it as an outsider's
>> opinion.. There may be a comparative something or other thesis on it
>> somewhere.. just one look at popular culture would be enough, not
>> saying one is worse than another, but the use of sarcasm is surely
>> very different in Brit vs. US TV comedy shows, for example..
>> Not a subject we're likely to solve/agree on once for all and in a
>> single post, I'm sure, though..
>> M
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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Ahoj, nejsem si jista významem části následující věty po "without"



The Price is to be understood for the delivery goods

(acc. to Incoterms 2010) including adequate packing

without covers excluding taxes, duty and any other fees in Czech Republic.





Díky



Sarka



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Omlouvám se,
Zapoměla jsme změnit předmět, tak jeątě jednou:

-----Original Message-----
From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Sarka Rubkova
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 11:25 AM
To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)

Ahoj, nejsem si jista významem části následující věty po "without". Jedná se
o německou angličtinu.



The Price is to be understood for the delivery goods

(acc. to Incoterms 2010) including adequate packing

without covers excluding taxes, duty and any other fees in Czech Republic.





Díky



Sarka



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------






Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@...> wrote:

> I've heard "occupational hazard" used ironically to describe the "mental
illness" (usually some sort of obsessive-compulsive behaviour or altered
perception of reality) one can get from a job.

This is a point I was going to make yesterday before I got sidetracked. I do see
this small area of overlap between "deformation professionnelle" and
"occupational hazard", e.g. if I start automatically interpreting everything I
hear around me I might tap my head and say something like "hazard of the job" by
way of explanation, but even then I would probably try to think of something
more drôle and apposite (like "hey, you got a problem with that, asshole?" :-)).


As for the acceptability of sardonicism in any given culture well Peter Newmark
makes the point (don't know how much he is generalizing) that in some places in
the Arab world it is considered highly insincere and frivolous, while in other
places (he names Hungary) people go in for it in a big way.

Imagine a car is stopped and the driver is chatting away even though the traffic
lights have changed to green. What do people typically say in your part of the
world? Zelenejsi to snad nebude, pane...?

Or if somebody leaves a door open. Mas v prdeli voj...?

BR

Melvyn

no, nemysli se tim "packing without covers", jako zabalene, ale nezakryte?
H


Dne 1.3.2013 11:24, Sarka Rubkova napsal(a):
> Ahoj, nejsem si jista významem části následující věty po "without"
>
>
>
> The Price is to be understood for the delivery goods
>
> (acc. to Incoterms 2010) including adequate packing
>
> without covers excluding taxes, duty and any other fees in Czech Republic.
>
>
>
>
>
> Díky
>
>
>
> Sarka
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:


> Anyway, if you guy's can accept the EU term "harmonization" in
senses  that have nothing to do with music, I can't see why you object to
"professional deformity" as a calque from French. I sense some
> inconsistency here.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=harmonized
FWIW the Online Etymology Dictionary says the  "bring into agreement" meaning of
"harmonize" dates back to 1727. Hardly Brusselese.

In any case, I do not object at all to the use of calques from French (the more
solutions, the merrier, as I say), but there must be some reason why so many
sources seek alternative translations, so I guess that is the main reason.

BR

Melvyn
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I
contain multitudes.) - Walt Whitman :-)

And let's keep Thoreau's hobgoblin out of this.

I don't think that sentence was written by a native English speaker, and it
looks like a translation from some other language.

By "covers" could they mean insurance?  Could they mean the recipient covering
the taxes, duties, etc.?

It really is impossible to understand, and the only thing you can do is try to
figure out what the intent might have been in the original language.

Jamie

On Mar 1, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:

> Omlouvam se,
> Zapomela jsme zmenit predmet, tak jeste jednou:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Sarka Rubkova
> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 11:25 AM
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Deformation professionnelle (was: Monterky)
>
> Ahoj, nejsem si jista vyznamem casti nasledujici vety po "without". Jedna se
> o nemeckou anglictinu.
>
>
>
> The Price is to be understood for the delivery goods
>
> (acc. to Incoterms 2010) including adequate packing
>
> without covers excluding taxes, duty and any other fees in Czech Republic.
>
>
>
>
>
> Diky
>
>
>
> Sarka
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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On Mar 1, 2013, at 5:34 AM, Melvyn wrote:

> Imagine a car is stopped and the driver is chatting away even though the
traffic lights have changed to green. What do people typically say in your part
of the world? Zelenejsi to snad nebude, pane...?

"MOVE YOUR ASS, MISTER!" or, "MOVE YOUR ASS, LADY!"  In the United States, we
just say it.

> Or if somebody leaves a door open. Mas v prdeli voj...?

"Brought up in a barn?!"  (I actually teach that expression to my ESL students,
because they give me so much opportunity to say it.)

Jamie


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