That's the point - a literal translation doesn't work.

I think the reason is that when you say in English "I'm going," the
natural stress patterns of the language mean that the stress falls on the
going and puts too much emphasis on it - I'm GOING. Whereas "Tak ja jdu",
wit its more balanced stress, doesn't suffer from that problem.

I'd translate it as I should be going, or I must be going (not I'm out of
here, because that pretty often has negative overtones). I've got to get
going is useful, too.


> "Tak ja jdu" as such does not by any means imply that you're leaving as a
> result of being offended or you're p*ssed off or you're looking for an
> excuse to leave. No need to read anything like that into it. It's a simple
> statement: I must be going.  I am out of here.
>
>
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of James Kirchner
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:04 PM
> To: czechlist@...
> Subject: [Czechlist] "Tak, ja jdu!"
>
>
>
> I know a lot of this would depend on the context, but I'm interested in
> some other translators' ideas of how to translate, "Tak, ja jdu!" in a
> culturally appropriate way at the end of a conversation.
>
> If you translate it literally into English, it can either sound like,
> "I've had enough of this conversation," or, "Okay, I get the message. I'll
> leave."
>
> I suppose you could say, "Well, I must be going," or, "I'm sorry, but I
> have to leave right now." Americans would offer an elaborate excuse that
> Czechs don't require.
>
> Any other ideas about how to translate it when no excuse is offered?
>
> Jamie
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

I'll get me coat ... :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfJAHASV8k8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F5wtk4msfU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3OM2MA1pic&feature=related

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, vtalacko@... wrote:
>
> That's the point - a literal translation doesn't work.
>
> I think the reason is that when you say in English "I'm going," the
> natural stress patterns of the language mean that the stress falls on the
> going and puts too much emphasis on it - I'm GOING. Whereas "Tak ja jdu",
> wit its more balanced stress, doesn't suffer from that problem.
>
> I'd translate it as I should be going, or I must be going (not I'm out of
> here, because that pretty often has negative overtones). I've got to get
> going is useful, too.
>
>
> > "Tak ja jdu" as such does not by any means imply that you're leaving as a
> > result of being offended or you're p*ssed off or you're looking for an
> > excuse to leave. No need to read anything like that into it. It's a simple
> > statement: I must be going.  I am out of here.
> >
> >
> > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of James Kirchner
> > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:04 PM
> > To: czechlist@...
> > Subject: [Czechlist] "Tak, ja jdu!"
> >
> >
> >
> > I know a lot of this would depend on the context, but I'm interested in
> > some other translators' ideas of how to translate, "Tak, ja jdu!" in a
> > culturally appropriate way at the end of a conversation.
> >
> > If you translate it literally into English, it can either sound like,
> > "I've had enough of this conversation," or, "Okay, I get the message. I'll
> > leave."
> >
> > I suppose you could say, "Well, I must be going," or, "I'm sorry, but I
> > have to leave right now." Americans would offer an elaborate excuse that
> > Czechs don't require.
> >
> > Any other ideas about how to translate it when no excuse is offered?
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Czechlist mailing list
> > Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>

Exactly!  By sheer coincidence I've just come across the following internal
instruction issued by a US-based Corporation (XY) to its Marketing

"XY trademarks and service marks should be identified and distinguished in
marketing material copy by using either a (R) or TM after XY trademark's first
reference in headlines and body text. Subsequent references do not need to
include the (R) or TM after the trademark name."


From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
James Kirchner
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:12 PM
To: czechlist@...
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Use of the TM symbol in Czech



This is late, but now that we're all back online, I'll weigh in on this one.

As for English (American) usage of the TM symbol, when I worked in advertising
-- and I worked for what, at the time, was "the world's largest advertising
agency" -- we did not put the TM symbol after every incidence of the brand name.

According to our legal department (and subsequent departments I worked with at
other agencies), the TM symbol did not have to appear after the trademark every
time, but just often enough that it's clear that it's a registered trademark.

In practice, this meant that we put the TM symbol (or R symbol, or SM symbol)
after the trademark the first time it appeared on each page, and left it off the
rest of the time.

We virtually never put the TM symbol after the trademark every time it appeared
-- only if we had a nutty client who insisted on it, which was rare.

Jamie

On Aug 8, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like (made
> up example):
>
> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like 'I
> am made for Android'
>
> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are headlines,
> not body copies, or small print..)
>
> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main reason
> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they
> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be a
> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx etc.
> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not have
> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
>
> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
> speakers? Thoughts?
>
> Thanks
>
> Matej
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for this note, Joe. I thought I stopped getting them because I
unsubscribed just before I went on holiday (and miraculously, right after I
unsubscribed - they stopped). One of the things on the "to do" list was to
figure out how to get the "proper" list again so I could read all of the posts
again -- žżįķěřž comes across really badly on Yahoo :)

Cheers

Liz

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Josef Hlavac <joe@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Apologies to all Czechlisters who are using the czechlist.org server.
> Tomas and I found out, to our complete horror, that the mailinglist
> subsystem was down for about... well.. a month. It seems that due to the
> holiday season, nobody else noticed, too...
>
> Again, I apologize. Things should be back to normal now and the queued
> messages are being delivered (hence the massive volumes of czechlist
> mail today).
>
> Joe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>

Yes, I was wrong with ā€žIā€™m ouf of hereā€œ.

(Interestingly enough, online definitions mostly donā€™t indicate or warn you
against these negative overtones
Such as
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/i'm+out+of+here
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I'm%20outta%20here
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/I'm+out+of+here

But dictionaries are rarely correct.)


From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
vtalacko@...
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:30 PM
To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Czechlist] "Tak, ja jdu!"



That's the point - a literal translation doesn't work.

I think the reason is that when you say in English "I'm going," the
natural stress patterns of the language mean that the stress falls on the
going and puts too much emphasis on it - I'm GOING. Whereas "Tak ja jdu",
wit its more balanced stress, doesn't suffer from that problem.

I'd translate it as I should be going, or I must be going (not I'm out of
here, because that pretty often has negative overtones). I've got to get
going is useful, too.

> "Tak ja jdu" as such does not by any means imply that you're leaving as a
> result of being offended or you're p*ssed off or you're looking for an
> excuse to leave. No need to read anything like that into it. It's a simple
> statement: I must be going. I am out of here.
>
>
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> Behalf Of James Kirchner
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:04 PM
> To: czechlist@...<mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
> Subject: [Czechlist] "Tak, ja jdu!"
>
>
>
> I know a lot of this would depend on the context, but I'm interested in
> some other translators' ideas of how to translate, "Tak, ja jdu!" in a
> culturally appropriate way at the end of a conversation.
>
> If you translate it literally into English, it can either sound like,
> "I've had enough of this conversation," or, "Okay, I get the message. I'll
> leave."
>
> I suppose you could say, "Well, I must be going," or, "I'm sorry, but I
> have to leave right now." Americans would offer an elaborate excuse that
> Czechs don't require.
>
> Any other ideas about how to translate it when no excuse is offered?
>
> Jamie
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
>
Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org><mailto:Czechlist%40cze\
chlist.org>
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear listmates,

A member of our state translator association almost got caught up in one of the
translator versions of the Nigerian scam recently, and she wrote me wanting to
know how people can tell the original e-mail is fraudulent.

I look at them with the eyes of an ESL instructor, so I have my ways of
detecting them.  One of the biggest giveaways is when the grammar and
punctuation errors don't match the ethnicity of the name the e-mail is signed
with.  For example, the name on the bottom of the e-mail might be "Steven
Jones", but the mistakes are ones that Arabs typically make, especially the
punctuation.

Plus, I get hundreds of e-mails a week from various project managers around the
world -- Germans and French people writing in English, Chinese people writing in
German, you name it -- and none of these legitimate project managers make the
kinds of writing mistakes you find in those scam e-mails.

Does anybody on the list have their own method of detecting these that I could
pass on to this young woman?

Jamie


_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
Czechlist@...
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

I usually apply the duck test

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> Dear listmates,
>
> A member of our state translator association almost got caught up in one of
the translator versions of the Nigerian scam recently, and she wrote me wanting
to know how people can tell the original e-mail is fraudulent.
>
> I look at them with the eyes of an ESL instructor, so I have my ways of
detecting them.  One of the biggest giveaways is when the grammar and
punctuation errors don't match the ethnicity of the name the e-mail is signed
with.  For example, the name on the bottom of the e-mail might be "Steven
Jones", but the mistakes are ones that Arabs typically make, especially the
punctuation.
>
> Plus, I get hundreds of e-mails a week from various project managers around
the world -- Germans and French people writing in English, Chinese people
writing in German, you name it -- and none of these legitimate project managers
make the kinds of writing mistakes you find in those scam e-mails.
>
> Does anybody on the list have their own method of detecting these that I could
pass on to this young woman?
>
> Jamie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>

What is the duck test?

Jamie

On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:59 AM, wustpisk wrote:

> I usually apply the duck test
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>>
>> Dear listmates,
>>
>> A member of our state translator association almost got caught up in one of
the translator versions of the Nigerian scam recently, and she wrote me wanting
to know how people can tell the original e-mail is fraudulent.
>>
>> I look at them with the eyes of an ESL instructor, so I have my ways of
detecting them.  One of the biggest giveaways is when the grammar and
punctuation errors don't match the ethnicity of the name the e-mail is signed
with.  For example, the name on the bottom of the e-mail might be "Steven
Jones", but the mistakes are ones that Arabs typically make, especially the
punctuation.
>>
>> Plus, I get hundreds of e-mails a week from various project managers around
the world -- Germans and French people writing in English, Chinese people
writing in German, you name it -- and none of these legitimate project managers
make the kinds of writing mistakes you find in those scam e-mails.
>>
>> Does anybody on the list have their own method of detecting these that I
could pass on to this young woman?
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Czechlist mailing list
>> Czechlist@...
>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
Czechlist@...
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

It's an Americanism so I thought you might like it.

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> What is the duck test?
>
> Jamie
>
> On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:59 AM, wustpisk wrote:
>
> > I usually apply the duck test
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
> >
> > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear listmates,
> >>
> >> A member of our state translator association almost got caught up in one of
the translator versions of the Nigerian scam recently, and she wrote me wanting
to know how people can tell the original e-mail is fraudulent.
> >>
> >> I look at them with the eyes of an ESL instructor, so I have my ways of
detecting them.  One of the biggest giveaways is when the grammar and
punctuation errors don't match the ethnicity of the name the e-mail is signed
with.  For example, the name on the bottom of the e-mail might be "Steven
Jones", but the mistakes are ones that Arabs typically make, especially the
punctuation.
> >>
> >> Plus, I get hundreds of e-mails a week from various project managers around
the world -- Germans and French people writing in English, Chinese people
writing in German, you name it -- and none of these legitimate project managers
make the kinds of writing mistakes you find in those scam e-mails.
> >>
> >> Does anybody on the list have their own method of detecting these that I
could pass on to this young woman?
> >>
> >> Jamie
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Czechlist mailing list
> >> Czechlist@
> >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Czechlist mailing list
> > Czechlist@...
> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>

Here's a picture of an alleged duck to help you
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:Mallard2.jpg

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> What is the duck test?
>
> Jamie
>
> On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:59 AM, wustpisk wrote:
>
> > I usually apply the duck test
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
> >
> > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear listmates,
> >>
> >> A member of our state translator association almost got caught up in one of
the translator versions of the Nigerian scam recently, and she wrote me wanting
to know how people can tell the original e-mail is fraudulent.
> >>
> >> I look at them with the eyes of an ESL instructor, so I have my ways of
detecting them.  One of the biggest giveaways is when the grammar and
punctuation errors don't match the ethnicity of the name the e-mail is signed
with.  For example, the name on the bottom of the e-mail might be "Steven
Jones", but the mistakes are ones that Arabs typically make, especially the
punctuation.
> >>
> >> Plus, I get hundreds of e-mails a week from various project managers around
the world -- Germans and French people writing in English, Chinese people
writing in German, you name it -- and none of these legitimate project managers
make the kinds of writing mistakes you find in those scam e-mails.
> >>
> >> Does anybody on the list have their own method of detecting these that I
could pass on to this young woman?
> >>
> >> Jamie
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Czechlist mailing list
> >> Czechlist@
> >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Czechlist mailing list
> > Czechlist@...
> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>

You can say "OK, I'm off," though, and it sounds OK (maybe not AmE).

> That's the point - a literal translation doesn't work.
>
> I think the reason is that when you say in English "I'm going," the
> natural stress patterns of the language mean that the stress falls on the
> going and puts too much emphasis on it - I'm GOING. Whereas "Tak ja jdu",
> wit its more balanced stress, doesn't suffer from that problem.
>
> I'd translate it as I should be going, or I must be going (not I'm out of
> here, because that pretty often has negative overtones). I've got to get
> going is useful, too.
>
>
>> "Tak ja jdu" as such does not by any means imply that you're leaving as
>> a
>> result of being offended or you're p*ssed off or you're looking for an
>> excuse to leave. No need to read anything like that into it. It's a
>> simple
>> statement: I must be going.  I am out of here.
>>
>>
>> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
>> Behalf Of James Kirchner
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:04 PM
>> To: czechlist@...
>> Subject: [Czechlist] "Tak, ja jdu!"
>>
>>
>>
>> I know a lot of this would depend on the context, but I'm interested in
>> some other translators' ideas of how to translate, "Tak, ja jdu!" in a
>> culturally appropriate way at the end of a conversation.
>>
>> If you translate it literally into English, it can either sound like,
>> "I've had enough of this conversation," or, "Okay, I get the message.
>> I'll
>> leave."
>>
>> I suppose you could say, "Well, I must be going," or, "I'm sorry, but I
>> have to leave right now." Americans would offer an elaborate excuse that
>> Czechs don't require.
>>
>> Any other ideas about how to translate it when no excuse is offered?
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Czechlist mailing list
>> Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>

haha, I was just thinking of that!

Actually, forget "I need to get going." It sounds a bit like you're
accusing the other person of holding you up. Only really works as a
self-reprimand - "whoops, I've been surfing the net for the last hour, I
need to get going."


> I'll get me coat ... :)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfJAHASV8k8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F5wtk4msfU&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3OM2MA1pic&feature=related
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, vtalacko@... wrote:
>>
>> That's the point - a literal translation doesn't work.
>>
>> I think the reason is that when you say in English "I'm going," the
>> natural stress patterns of the language mean that the stress falls on
>> the
>> going and puts too much emphasis on it - I'm GOING. Whereas "Tak ja
>> jdu",
>> wit its more balanced stress, doesn't suffer from that problem.
>>
>> I'd translate it as I should be going, or I must be going (not I'm out
>> of
>> here, because that pretty often has negative overtones). I've got to get
>> going is useful, too.
>>
>>
>> > "Tak ja jdu" as such does not by any means imply that you're leaving
>> as a
>> > result of being offended or you're p*ssed off or you're looking for an
>> > excuse to leave. No need to read anything like that into it. It's a
>> simple
>> > statement: I must be going.  I am out of here.
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
>> > Behalf Of James Kirchner
>> > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:04 PM
>> > To: czechlist@...
>> > Subject: [Czechlist] "Tak, ja jdu!"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I know a lot of this would depend on the context, but I'm interested
>> in
>> > some other translators' ideas of how to translate, "Tak, ja jdu!" in a
>> > culturally appropriate way at the end of a conversation.
>> >
>> > If you translate it literally into English, it can either sound like,
>> > "I've had enough of this conversation," or, "Okay, I get the message.
>> I'll
>> > leave."
>> >
>> > I suppose you could say, "Well, I must be going," or, "I'm sorry, but
>> I
>> > have to leave right now." Americans would offer an elaborate excuse
>> that
>> > Czechs don't require.
>> >
>> > Any other ideas about how to translate it when no excuse is offered?
>> >
>> > Jamie
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Czechlist mailing list
>> > Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
>> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

Hi,

I encountered just the big deal version (we need to deposit one million on
your account). If English, the language tends to be orientally ling-winded.
The natives like sort of text messaging style or they use a specific
written-communication newspeak, specific "catchphrases" the non-English
scammers donĀ“t use - they are trying to be polite their own way.


What is the translator version?

Libor

2012/8/30 James Kirchner <czechlist@...>

> **
>
>
> Dear listmates,
>
> A member of our state translator association almost got caught up in one
> of the translator versions of the Nigerian scam recently, and she wrote me
> wanting to know how people can tell the original e-mail is fraudulent.
>
> I look at them with the eyes of an ESL instructor, so I have my ways of
> detecting them. One of the biggest giveaways is when the grammar and
> punctuation errors don't match the ethnicity of the name the e-mail is
> signed with. For example, the name on the bottom of the e-mail might be
> "Steven Jones", but the mistakes are ones that Arabs typically make,
> especially the punctuation.
>
> Plus, I get hundreds of e-mails a week from various project managers
> around the world -- Germans and French people writing in English, Chinese
> people writing in German, you name it -- and none of these legitimate
> project managers make the kinds of writing mistakes you find in those scam
> e-mails.
>
> Does anybody on the list have their own method of detecting these that I
> could pass on to this young woman?
>
> Jamie
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>



--
czesko.pl, preloz.me, maven.cz
Libor Zajƭček <http://about.me>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The translator version is where they offer you a job at a good rate and promise
to pay you in advance.

Then they send you a rubber check, ask you to deposit it quickly, and before
it's had time to clear, they tell you they've overpaid you and need you to
return part of the money.  The translator does this, then the original check
bounces, and the translator is out the "remitted" money and the penalty fees.

These are not written in an overblown African style, but they have lots of
punctuation and capitalization errors that are typical of Arabs when they write
in English.

Jamie

On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:33 AM, czechlist-bounces@... wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I encountered just the big deal version (we need to deposit one million on
> your account). If English, the language tends to be orientally ling-winded.
> The natives like sort of text messaging style or they use a specific
> written-communication newspeak, specific "catchphrases" the non-English
> scammers don?t use - they are trying to be polite their own way.
>
>
> What is the translator version?
>
> Libor
>
> 2012/8/30 James Kirchner <czechlist@...>
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Dear listmates,
>>
>> A member of our state translator association almost got caught up in one
>> of the translator versions of the Nigerian scam recently, and she wrote me
>> wanting to know how people can tell the original e-mail is fraudulent.
>>
>> I look at them with the eyes of an ESL instructor, so I have my ways of
>> detecting them. One of the biggest giveaways is when the grammar and
>> punctuation errors don't match the ethnicity of the name the e-mail is
>> signed with. For example, the name on the bottom of the e-mail might be
>> "Steven Jones", but the mistakes are ones that Arabs typically make,
>> especially the punctuation.
>>
>> Plus, I get hundreds of e-mails a week from various project managers
>> around the world -- Germans and French people writing in English, Chinese
>> people writing in German, you name it -- and none of these legitimate
>> project managers make the kinds of writing mistakes you find in those scam
>> e-mails.
>>
>> Does anybody on the list have their own method of detecting these that I
>> could pass on to this young woman?
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Czechlist mailing list
>> Czechlist@...
>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> czesko.pl, preloz.me, maven.cz
> Libor Zajicek <http://about.me>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


_______________________________________________
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--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> I know it doesn't mean the person is offended, but when it's translated
directly into English it often gives that impression.  So can, "I'm outta here,"
if it's handled wrong.

Yes, I mentioned it can sound urgent.
>
> I'm starting to conclude that there's no way to translate it into English
without adding an apology of some kind.

Or at least a reason, if only the passage of time?

Time I made a move.
Time I hit the road.
Time I was on my way.

In some situations I would be tempted to use something like this as a pragmatic
translation.

How does something like "I'll be on my way then" or "I'll be off then" sound to
American ears? To me they are considerably less immediate than "Okay, I'm on my
way" or "I'm off", which really sound like you have your hat and coat on.

Goodness, will you look at the time now?

BR

M.

I suppose this is the problem of having a language as rich as English, in all
its forms.

Right, best get going. Got to get the kids.

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
> >
> > I know it doesn't mean the person is offended, but when it's translated
directly into English it often gives that impression.  So can, "I'm outta here,"
if it's handled wrong.
>
> Yes, I mentioned it can sound urgent.
> >
> > I'm starting to conclude that there's no way to translate it into English
without adding an apology of some kind.
>
> Or at least a reason, if only the passage of time?
>
> Time I made a move.
> Time I hit the road.
> Time I was on my way.
>
> In some situations I would be tempted to use something like this as a
pragmatic translation.
>
> How does something like "I'll be on my way then" or "I'll be off then" sound
to American ears? To me they are considerably less immediate than "Okay, I'm on
my way" or "I'm off", which really sound like you have your hat and coat on.
>
> Goodness, will you look at the time now?
>
> BR
>
> M.
>

I think it's the "then" that makes those phrases sound British.  We don't use
"then" to soften a phrase as much as you folks do.

Jamie

On Aug 30, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Melvyn wrote:

> How does something like "I'll be on my way then" or "I'll be off then" sound
to American ears? To me they are considerably less immediate than "Okay, I'm on
my way" or "I'm off", which really sound like you have your hat and coat on.

_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
Czechlist@...
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

Z USA jsem dostal odkaz na

http://www.youtube.com/embed/9wm-Ge8LL7o?rel=0

Original je nemecky, ale Americanum se to libi. Je to v duchu "kanadskych
zertu", ktere nataci skryta kamera.

Milan

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:

> I'm figuring out that the the word for "skodolibost" (Schadenfreude,
??????????, etc.)

Ahoj Jirko,

priznal ses k odvaze experimentovat. Z prekladatelu, kteri sleduji skupiny
Czechlist a Preklady se mi privatne ozval jeden prekladatel a nabidl mi pomoc,
mohu mu poslat svoje pripadne dotazy.

V Ubuntu je nove graficke rozhrani Unity (pred dvema lety byla nabizena prvni
volitelna verze), ktere se lisi od predchozich grafickych rozhrani.

V Linuxu existuji bezplatne editory pro soubory PDF, ktere obsahuji text.
Prakticke zkusenosti zatim nemam. Zabyvam se momentalne existujicimi preklady
dila Karla Capka do anglictiny.

Milan

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Jirka Bolech <jirka@...> wrote:
>
> Ahoj Milane,
>
> aktivne nepouzivam zadnou distribuci Linuxu, ale Ubuntu jsem asi pred
> dvema roky zkousel a pripadl mi opravdu hodne dobry. Vzhledem k tomu, ze
> byl patrny pomerne intenzivni pokracujici vyvoj tohoto systemu,
> predpokladam, ze aktualni verze je jeste lepsi.
...
> Nejnazornejsi priklad teto pocitacove negramotne arogance je zdrojovy
> soubor ve formatu pdf od Adobe...
>
> Jirka Bolech

That genre is called "candid camera" in the US, based on a show from the 1950s
of the same name.

Would you classify that as "skodolibost"?  I don't think a Russian would.

Jamie

On Aug 31, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Milan wrote:

> Z USA jsem dostal odkaz na
>
> http://www.youtube.com/embed/9wm-Ge8LL7o?rel=0
>
> Original je nemecky, ale Americanum se to libi. Je to v duchu "kanadskych
zertu", ktere nataci skryta kamera.
>
> Milan
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
>> I'm figuring out that the the word for "skodolibost" (Schadenfreude,
??????????, etc.)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


_______________________________________________
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--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> That genre is called "candid camera" in the US, based on a show from the 1950s
of the same name.
>
> Would you classify that as "skodolibost"?  I don't think a Russian would.


Comes pretty close to the banana-skin pratfall category, which automatically
entails Schadenfreude in my book. Why else would anybody laugh in that kind of
situation?

The Japanese version of Candid Camera can be pretty brutal IMO. After being
awoken by machine guns and explosives the victims will at most manage to utter:
"oh, your humour is _very_ cruel".

The British version has some neat ideas, but then I am biased.

Perhaps our Schadenfreude can be even crueller and more refined?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tDvwrEHA1w

Anybody ever been in a situation like that? :-)

Check out Nevahej a toc on YouTube. Just one nasty pratfall after another,
intercut by shots of audience members contorting with laughter. Or so I presume.
Can't bear to watch more than a few seconds, myself.

BTW:

Glee
great merriment or delight, often caused by someone else's misfortune

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/

I notice Merriam Webster does not mention the misfortune element.

Can occasionally be used for skodolibost IMO, at least in BrEng.


BR

M.

Okay, but back to my specific questions.

Which one is and isn't skodolibost?

Here are four examples.  Can list members please tell me which of the four they
think would be examples of of "skodolibost"?

1.  You're jealous of your neighbor's nice car, so when another driver smashes
it on the road, you're happy.

2.  You hate your neighbor, so when his marriage breaks up, you're happy to see
him suffer.

3.  A man eating potato chips turns his hand to look at his watch, unthinkingly
tips the bag, and all the potato chips fall into his lap.  His friend
good-naturedly laughs at it.

4.  A guy is so sleepy in the morning that he accidentally pours orange juice
instead of milk on his cereal.  His girlfriend laughs.

Jamie


_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
Czechlist@...
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

All of these involve laughing at somebody's misfortune, which automatically
entails Schadenfreude in my book, as I was trying to say.

You could even be gleeful over your own misfortune. Ha, ha, that'll teach me.

BR

M.

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, but back to my specific questions.
>
> Which one is and isn't skodolibost?
>
> Here are four examples.  Can list members please tell me which of the four
they think would be examples of of "skodolibost"?
>
> 1.  You're jealous of your neighbor's nice car, so when another driver smashes
it on the road, you're happy.
>
> 2.  You hate your neighbor, so when his marriage breaks up, you're happy to
see him suffer.
>
> 3.  A man eating potato chips turns his hand to look at his watch,
unthinkingly tips the bag, and all the potato chips fall into his lap.  His
friend good-naturedly laughs at it.
>
> 4.  A guy is so sleepy in the morning that he accidentally pours orange juice
instead of milk on his cereal.  His girlfriend laughs.
>
> Jamie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>

What is your opinion on this matter?

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> Quiz time:
>
> I'm figuring out that the the word for "skodolibost" (Schadenfreude,
??????????, etc.) has a varying semantic field from one language to another.
>
> Here are four examples.  Can list members please tell me which of the four
they think would be examples of of "skodolibost"?
>
> 1.  You're jealous of your neighbor's nice car, so when another driver smashes
it on the road, you're happy.
>
> 2.  You hate your neighbor, so when his marriage breaks up, you're happy to
see him suffer.
>
> 3.  A man eating potato chips turns his hand to look at his watch,
unthinkingly tips the bag, and all the potato chips fall into his lap.  His
friend good-naturedly laughs at it.
>
> 4.  A guy is so sleepy in the morning that he accidentally pours orange juice
instead of milk on his cereal.  His girlfriend laughs.
>
> If you have time to give me feedback on this, I'll be grateful.
>
> Jamie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>

I think Schadenfreude is a bit darker than that - IMO there is nothing
good-natured about it, therefore as per my previous response no. 3 doesn't come
under this category, and neither does 4, unless there are underlying marriage
issues ...

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
>
>
> All of these involve laughing at somebody's misfortune, which automatically
entails Schadenfreude in my book, as I was trying to say.
>
> You could even be gleeful over your own misfortune. Ha, ha, that'll teach me.
>
> BR
>
> M.
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
> >
> > Okay, but back to my specific questions.
> >
> > Which one is and isn't skodolibost?
> >
> > Here are four examples.  Can list members please tell me which of the four
they think would be examples of of "skodolibost"?
> >
> > 1.  You're jealous of your neighbor's nice car, so when another driver
smashes it on the road, you're happy.
> >
> > 2.  You hate your neighbor, so when his marriage breaks up, you're happy to
see him suffer.
> >
> > 3.  A man eating potato chips turns his hand to look at his watch,
unthinkingly tips the bag, and all the potato chips fall into his lap.  His
friend good-naturedly laughs at it.
> >
> > 4.  A guy is so sleepy in the morning that he accidentally pours orange
juice instead of milk on his cereal.  His girlfriend laughs.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Czechlist mailing list
> > Czechlist@
> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> >
>

1 is a classic example
2 yes, but it's a bit more intense, skodolibost is usually to do with
small(er) things..

3 since the friend laughs good-naturedly, it's not skodolibost, it's
just a funny situation
4 can be if the girfriend hates him or if they've had an argument the
night before, otherwise I'd say it's same as 3

for 3 and 4 to be skodolibost the laugh would have to be a bit
sinister, the people laughing enjoying what's going on - which usually
comes with a) not knowing the person well/not being their friend and b)
laughing from a distance/inside their head instead of directly in front
of the person, skodolibost usually has that element to it - you'll be
all sweet to your neighbour in 1 and 2, condemning the driver who
smashed their car, or his ex, etc., but you'll laugh inside and later
on at home..

M


------ Original Message ------
From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...>
To: czechlist@...
Sent: 31.8.2012 14:54:07
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Semantics of skodolibost
> Okay, but back to my specific questions.
>
>Which one is and isn't skodolibost?
>
>Here are four examples. Can list members please tell me which of the
>four they think would be examples of of "skodolibost"?
>
>1. You're jealous of your neighbor's nice car, so when another driver
>smashes it on the road, you're happy.
>
>2. You hate your neighbor, so when his marriage breaks up, you're
>happy to see him suffer.
>
>3. A man eating potato chips turns his hand to look at his watch,
>unthinkingly tips the bag, and all the potato chips fall into his lap.
>His friend good-naturedly laughs at it.
>
>4. A guy is so sleepy in the morning that he accidentally pours orange
>juice instead of milk on his cereal. His girlfriend laughs.
>
>Jamie
>
>_______________________________________________
>Czechlist mailing list
>Czechlist@...
>http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Okay, this is interesting, because people from other countries have a word for
Schadenfreude, but they say that two of them would definitely not be classified
as Schadenfreude.

It seems further west you get, the more likely people are to classify them all
as Schadenfreude, until you cross the Atlantic Ocean and find the Americans
making the same distinctions as the Russians, Ukrainians and Serbs.

JK

On Aug 31, 2012, at 9:13 AM, Melvyn wrote:

>
> All of these involve laughing at somebody's misfortune, which automatically
entails Schadenfreude in my book, as I was trying to say.
>
> You could even be gleeful over your own misfortune. Ha, ha, that'll teach me.
>
> BR
>
> M.
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>>
>> Okay, but back to my specific questions.
>>
>> Which one is and isn't skodolibost?
>>
>> Here are four examples.  Can list members please tell me which of the four
they think would be examples of of "skodolibost"?
>>
>> 1.  You're jealous of your neighbor's nice car, so when another driver
smashes it on the road, you're happy.
>>
>> 2.  You hate your neighbor, so when his marriage breaks up, you're happy to
see him suffer.
>>
>> 3.  A man eating potato chips turns his hand to look at his watch,
unthinkingly tips the bag, and all the potato chips fall into his lap.  His
friend good-naturedly laughs at it.
>>
>> 4.  A guy is so sleepy in the morning that he accidentally pours orange juice
instead of milk on his cereal.  His girlfriend laughs.
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Czechlist mailing list
>> Czechlist@...
>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


_______________________________________________
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Czechlist@...
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

This sparked off a bit of a skype conversation with a German philosopher friend
of mine - he is adamant that it can only be  malicious.
However your idea of Selbstschadenfreude is an interesting one
http://waldenswimmer.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/origins-of-selbst-schadenfreude.html

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
>
>
> All of these involve laughing at somebody's misfortune, which automatically
entails Schadenfreude in my book, as I was trying to say.
>
> You could even be gleeful over your own misfortune. Ha, ha, that'll teach me.
>
> BR
>
> M.
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
> >
> > Okay, but back to my specific questions.
> >
> > Which one is and isn't skodolibost?
> >
> > Here are four examples.  Can list members please tell me which of the four
they think would be examples of of "skodolibost"?
> >
> > 1.  You're jealous of your neighbor's nice car, so when another driver
smashes it on the road, you're happy.
> >
> > 2.  You hate your neighbor, so when his marriage breaks up, you're happy to
see him suffer.
> >
> > 3.  A man eating potato chips turns his hand to look at his watch,
unthinkingly tips the bag, and all the potato chips fall into his lap.  His
friend good-naturedly laughs at it.
> >
> > 4.  A guy is so sleepy in the morning that he accidentally pours orange
juice instead of milk on his cereal.  His girlfriend laughs.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Czechlist mailing list
> > Czechlist@
> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
> >
>

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...> wrote:
>
> This sparked off a bit of a skype conversation with a German philosopher
friend of mine - he is adamant that it can only be  malicious.

Probably going off on my own philosophical cloud here (and not really making a
very useful linguistic point), but it seems to me that even if your friend is
right and Schadenfreude is essentially malicious (and indeed, as Schopenhauer
points out, demonic), there can still be huge differences of degree. So at one
extreme you can have overt gloating (another useful near-synonym) and gleeful
hand-rubbing over the downfall of a hated adversary, mwa ha ha ha etc, whereas
at the other extreme, even the most innocent and good-natured teasing and banter
may have just a soupcon of big S, and the gentlest of laughter may just show a
glint of that cruel cutting edge. So in a sense, one can be good-natured and a
little malicious all at the same time.

As Matej points out, Schadenfreude often consists in laughing from a
distance/inside your head/later on at home. To quote Wikipedia FWIW: A
distinction exists between "secret schadenfreude" (a private feeling) and "open
schadenfreude" (Hohn, a German word roughly translated as "scorn") which is
outright public derision.

BR

M.

Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he
stumbleth: Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his
wrath from him. (Proverbs 24:17–18, King James Version).

K tomu mame ironicke rceni "cizi nestesti nejvic (nebo: vzdycky) potesi".
Petr Adamek
--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, but back to my specific questions.
>
> Which one is and isn't skodolibost?
>
> Here are four examples.  Can list members please tell me which of the four
they think would be examples of of "skodolibost"?
>
> 1.  You're jealous of your neighbor's nice car, so when another driver smashes
it on the road, you're happy.
>
> 2.  You hate your neighbor, so when his marriage breaks up, you're happy to
see him suffer.
>
> 3.  A man eating potato chips turns his hand to look at his watch,
unthinkingly tips the bag, and all the potato chips fall into his lap.  His
friend good-naturedly laughs at it.
>
> 4.  A guy is so sleepy in the morning that he accidentally pours orange juice
instead of milk on his cereal.  His girlfriend laughs.
>
> Jamie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>