what I meant was, why do you think chairwoman sounds unnatural?


On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 10:06 +0200, Valerie Talacko wrote:
>
> Using -woman instead of -man is completely normal practice in English,
> e.g. kinsman, kinswoman.
>
> >From the King James Bible:
>
> "And behold, Elisabeth thy kinswoman..."
> "Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy
> kinswoman"
>
> Valerie
>
> On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 09:54 +0200, "Charlie Stanford Translations"
> wrote:
> > Perhaps I am wrong and out-of-touch but I don't think women usually
> mind being referred to as "Madame Chairman" - to me it sounds much
> more natural than "Madame Chairwoman" and I always just use chairman,
> irrespective of gender.
> >
> > Here is what Maggie Thatcher had to say about it (perhaps not the
> most feminine of sources...) in a speech to the Conservative Women's
> Conference: 'Conservative women are above all practical. They do not
> attempt to advance women's rights by addressing you, Madame Chairman,
> as Madame Chairperson or Madame Chair, or worse, simply as Chair. With
> feminists like that who needs male chauvinists?'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Matej Klimes
> > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 9:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Liz,
> >
> > this is just a one-off in an article intro, but good to know.
> >
> > I've gone with -woman
> >
> > M
> > ------ Original Message ------
> > From: "Liz" <spacils@...>
> > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: 2.5.2012 9:24:41
> > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
> > > Hi Matej,
> > >
> > >IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males
> and
> > >Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
> > >
> > >Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip
> curl.
> > >
> > >Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and
> > >consistently) in academia.
> > >
> > >Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is
> from
> > >the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but
> that
> > >seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
> > >
> > >Cheers
> > >
> > >Liz
> > >
> > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> In a quote or an article introduction (i.e. Predsedkyne
> > >predstavenstva
> > >> spolecnosti XX Mrs YY), would you say Chairwoman or Chairperson??
> > >>
> > >> Some sources including Forbes use Chairwoman, seems more
> natural...
> > >> what do you think?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks
> > >>
> > >> M
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Czechlist mailing list
> > Czechlist@...
> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
>
>
>
>

Perhaps you are right in certain contexts Valerie, but in business Chairman
seems much more widespread. Christine Lagarde for instance is referred to as
"Chairman of the IMF", Irene Rosenfeld is "Chairman of (the Board at) Kraft",
Meg Whitman is "Chairman of the Board at eBay", Indra Nooyi is "Chairman of the
Board at Pepsi" - you hardly ever find them referred to as Chairwoman. Try
Googling their names followed by Chairman or Chairwoman and you will see what I
mean.
Charlie

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Valerie Talacko
   To: czechlist@...
   Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:06 AM
   Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Predsedkyne predstavenstva



   Using -woman instead of -man is completely normal practice in English,
   e.g. kinsman, kinswoman.

   >From the King James Bible:

   "And behold, Elisabeth thy kinswoman..."
   "Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy
   kinswoman"

   Valerie

   On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 09:54 +0200, "Charlie Stanford Translations"
   wrote:
   > Perhaps I am wrong and out-of-touch but I don't think women usually mind
being referred to as "Madame Chairman" - to me it sounds much more natural than
"Madame Chairwoman" and I always just use chairman, irrespective of gender.
   >
   > Here is what Maggie Thatcher had to say about it (perhaps not the most
feminine of sources...) in a speech to the Conservative Women's Conference:
'Conservative women are above all practical. They do not attempt to advance
women's rights by addressing you, Madame Chairman, as Madame Chairperson or
Madame Chair, or worse, simply as Chair. With feminists like that who needs male
chauvinists?'
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: Matej Klimes
   > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 9:31 AM
   > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
   >
   >
   >
   > Thanks Liz,
   >
   > this is just a one-off in an article intro, but good to know.
   >
   > I've gone with -woman
   >
   > M
   > ------ Original Message ------
   > From: "Liz" <spacils@...>
   > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: 2.5.2012 9:24:41
   > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
   > > Hi Matej,
   > >
   > >IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males and
   > >Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
   > >
   > >Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip curl.
   > >
   > >Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and
   > >consistently) in academia.
   > >
   > >Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is from
   > >the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but that
   > >seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
   > >
   > >Cheers
   > >
   > >Liz
   > >
   > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
   > >>
   > >> In a quote or an article introduction (i.e. Predsedkyne
   > >predstavenstva
   > >> spolecnosti XX Mrs YY), would you say Chairwoman or Chairperson??
   > >>
   > >> Some sources including Forbes use Chairwoman, seems more natural...
   > >> what do you think?
   > >>
   > >> Thanks
   > >>
   > >> M
   > >>
   > >>
   > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > >>
   > >
   > >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   > _______________________________________________
   > Czechlist mailing list
   > Czechlist@...
   > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

   _______________________________________________
   Czechlist mailing list
   Czechlist@...
   http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a universal/neutral form
derived from the meaning of person/human, rather than male? Just like we don't
say mankind and womankind? :) Or what makes the difference that "mankind" is
still gender neutral?

Tomas


--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Matej,
>
> IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males and
Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
>
> Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip curl.
>
> Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and consistently) in
academia.
>
> Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is from the
Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but that seems to be one
of those popular urban myths...
>
> Cheers
>
> Liz

Dear Colleagues,

we've just posted on the "Traduttore Cerca Aiuto" blog a list of new
multilingual online resources shared last month by other translators:

http://traduttorecercaaiuto.blogspot.com/2012/05/resourcesrisorse-042012.html

Thanks

s


~~~~~~
stefano gallorini
deutsch-italienisch
web: proz.com/translator/23576


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Penguin:

- chairman or chairwoman noun (pl chairmen or chairwomen) 1 somebody who
presides over or heads a meeting, committee, organization....

- chairperson noun (pl chairpersons) a chairman or chairwoman

- womankind noun female human beings; women as a whole, esp as distinguished
from men.


My super-ancient Merriam-Webster offers only chairman, but I see online they
have

- chairwoman: a woman who serves as chairman


As to "Madam Chairman", here's a little entertainment from Canada:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/34872-deputy-speaker-draws-line-%E2%80%98ma\
dam-chairman%E2%80%99

- Liz

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...> wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a universal/neutral
form derived from the meaning of person/human, rather than male? Just like we
don't say mankind and womankind? :) Or what makes the difference that "mankind"
is still gender neutral?
>
> Tomas
>
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Matej,
> >
> > IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males and
Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
> >
> > Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip curl.
> >
> > Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and consistently) in
academia.
> >
> > Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is from the
Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but that seems to be one
of those popular urban myths...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Liz
>

Maybe things will change Liz but "Madame Chairman" is nearly 4 times more common
than "Madame Chairwoman" according to Google hits (fairly unscientific method
but still...). I think the Canadian Deputy Speaker is out on a bit of a limb.

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Liz
   To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:15 AM
   Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva



   Penguin:

   - chairman or chairwoman noun (pl chairmen or chairwomen) 1 somebody who
presides over or heads a meeting, committee, organization....

   - chairperson noun (pl chairpersons) a chairman or chairwoman

   - womankind noun female human beings; women as a whole, esp as distinguished
from men.

   My super-ancient Merriam-Webster offers only chairman, but I see online they
have

   - chairwoman: a woman who serves as chairman

   As to "Madam Chairman", here's a little entertainment from Canada:
  
http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/34872-deputy-speaker-draws-line-%E2%80%98ma\
dam-chairman%E2%80%99

   - Liz

   --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...> wrote:
   >
   > Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a universal/neutral
form derived from the meaning of person/human, rather than male? Just like we
don't say mankind and womankind? :) Or what makes the difference that "mankind"
is still gender neutral?
   >
   > Tomas
   >
   >
   > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@> wrote:
   > >
   > > Hi Matej,
   > >
   > > IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males and
Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
   > >
   > > Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip curl.
   > >
   > > Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and consistently) in
academia.
   > >
   > > Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is from the
Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but that seems to be one
of those popular urban myths...
   > >
   > > Cheers
   > >
   > > Liz
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm only a non-NS, but I feel Madam is added there to avoid using
chairwoman and still address the person as a woman... doesn't work in
my case - or most cases in writing

I decided for chairwoman because it's a Czech person and English
readers may not guess she's a woman from just the name, anyway, wasn't
that important

Thanks again

M



------ Original Message ------
From: "Charlie Stanford Translations"
<charliestanfordtranslations@...>
To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2.5.2012 11:50:24
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
> Maybe things will change Liz but "Madame Chairman" is nearly 4 times
>more common than "Madame Chairwoman" according to Google hits (fairly
>unscientific method but still...). I think the Canadian Deputy Speaker
>is out on a bit of a limb.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Liz
>To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:15 AM
>Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
>
>Penguin:
>
>- chairman or chairwoman noun (pl chairmen or chairwomen) 1 somebody
>who presides over or heads a meeting, committee, organization....
>
>- chairperson noun (pl chairpersons) a chairman or chairwoman
>
>- womankind noun female human beings; women as a whole, esp as
>distinguished from men.
>
>My super-ancient Merriam-Webster offers only chairman, but I see
>online they have
>
>- chairwoman: a woman who serves as chairman
>
>As to "Madam Chairman", here's a little entertainment from Canada:
>http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/34872-deputy-speaker-draws-line-%E2%80%98m\
adam-chairman%E2%80%99
>
>- Liz
>
>--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...> wrote:
>>
>> Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a
>universal/neutral form derived from the meaning of person/human,
>rather than male? Just like we don't say mankind and womankind? :) Or
>what makes the difference that "mankind" is still gender neutral?
>>
>> Tomas
>>
>>
>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Matej,
>> >
>> > IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males
>and Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
>> >
>> > Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip
>curl.
>> >
>> > Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and
>consistently) in academia.
>> >
>> > Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is
>from the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but
>that seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> >
>> > Liz
>>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Madam" is actually there to avoid saying "Mr."  :-)  We do address people as
"Mr. President", "Mr. Chairman", etc., and "Madam" is used for women in that
context.  However, these words are used only when addressing the chair directly
and not when referring to him or her in the third person.

As you can see, the usage of the three terms is all over the place, but I think
that the type of feminist who is hypersensitive about being called "chairwoman"
instead of "chairman" does not rise to the level of chairman anyway.  This may
be why the Google search resulted in more references to women as "chairman" than
as "chairwoman".

I tend to avoid the problem by using "chair", but this can cause problems in
cases where it's not clear whether the speaker is talking about a person or an
actual piece of furniture, as when my graduate advisor told me, "I have to go to
a meeting this afternoon.  We're getting a new chair for the English
department."  It took about three hours to for it to dawn on me that an armchair
was not being purchased by committee.

In other expressions, sometimes they stick and sometimes they don't.  When I was
in art school, all professors and therefore students were condemning use of the
word "sculptress", and we seamlessly switched to "sculptor" without confusion. 
However, the entertainment world tried to eliminate the term "actress" with the
result that they now constantly say "woman actress".  Apparently the gender
distinction is important in some professions and not others.

Jamie

On May 2, 2012, at 6:08 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

> I'm only a non-NS, but I feel Madam is added there to avoid using
> chairwoman and still address the person as a woman... doesn't work in
> my case - or most cases in writing
>
> I decided for chairwoman because it's a Czech person and English
> readers may not guess she's a woman from just the name, anyway, wasn't
> that important
>
> Thanks again
>
> M
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Charlie Stanford Translations"
> <charliestanfordtranslations@...>
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 2.5.2012 11:50:24
> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
>> Maybe things will change Liz but "Madame Chairman" is nearly 4 times
>> more common than "Madame Chairwoman" according to Google hits (fairly
>> unscientific method but still...). I think the Canadian Deputy Speaker
>> is out on a bit of a limb.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Liz
>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:15 AM
>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
>>
>> Penguin:
>>
>> - chairman or chairwoman noun (pl chairmen or chairwomen) 1 somebody
>> who presides over or heads a meeting, committee, organization....
>>
>> - chairperson noun (pl chairpersons) a chairman or chairwoman
>>
>> - womankind noun female human beings; women as a whole, esp as
>> distinguished from men.
>>
>> My super-ancient Merriam-Webster offers only chairman, but I see
>> online they have
>>
>> - chairwoman: a woman who serves as chairman
>>
>> As to "Madam Chairman", here's a little entertainment from Canada:
>>
http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/34872-deputy-speaker-draws-line-%E2%80%98ma\
dam-chairman%E2%80%99
>>
>> - Liz
>>
>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a
>> universal/neutral form derived from the meaning of person/human,
>> rather than male? Just like we don't say mankind and womankind? :) Or
>> what makes the difference that "mankind" is still gender neutral?
>>>
>>> Tomas
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Matej,
>>>>
>>>> IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males
>> and Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
>>>>
>>>> Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip
>> curl.
>>>>
>>>> Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and
>> consistently) in academia.
>>>>
>>>> Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is
>> from the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but
>> that seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Liz
>>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
Czechlist@...
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

Podle meho nazoru je hlavni, ze nas Jamie upozornuje na chyby, ktere mnozi z nas
delaji/delame. Ja za sebe jsem mu za to vdecny a dekuji mu, a jestli je v tom
min nebo vic antagonismu, je pro mne vcelku vedlejsi (zejmena kdyz nepise "ten a
ten na Czechlistu dela porad jednu chybu" :-) ).
Petr Adamek

Steve, the difference between those high school kids and me was that they'd had
only had a year and a half of English and were claiming their language to be
superior to all other languages.  I have a vseobecna statnice in Czech and 20
years of translation experience and wasn't making any claims about linguistic
superiority.

Those kids were reaching their conclusions about the poverty of the English
vocabulary based on their elementary and intermediate ESL books, while I had
reached my not-quite-firm conclusion that Czech had no terms for "plug in" and
"unplug" (at least spisovne terms) through translating thousands and thousands
of pages of Czech text that always used circumlocutions for those concepts and
finding that reputable Czech dictionaries also contain circumlocutions for
"unplug" (albeit shorter ones).

And there was precedent for problems like this.  English certainly has no term
for "bufetak" and a host of other terms, for example, but at the same time a
concept as simple as "self-conscious" gets translated in the VACS as "majici
niprijemny pocit byt stredem pozornosti".

Anyway, take heart in the fact that I never dare try to translate INTO Czech!

Jamie

On May 1, 2012, at 8:20 AM, Steve Vitek wrote:

> Then why do you act like those silly elementary school students of
> yours, James?
>
> The proper way to ask your question would be "Is there a single word
> for  the term "plug in" (there is, of course, zastrcit, zasunout,
> einstecken, etc.), not "There is no single word for the term "plug in".

_______________________________________________
Czechlist mailing list
Czechlist@...
http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

Zdravim,

vzhledem k tomu, ze se na 2 dny nachazim v Praze bylo Pavlem J.
rozhodnuto, ze zvolame na rychlo meeting :-)

Stul je objednan zde http://www.kristian-marco.cz/index.php/listek.
<http://www.kristian-marco.cz/index.php/listek>
Bude-li pocasi hezke doprejem si venkovni seseni :-)

Uz se na vas tesim
Helga

<http://www.kristian-marco.cz/index.php/listek>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ahoj,

mohl by mi prosim nekdo z Vas poradit s terminem "results over imputantions" v
nize uvedene vete? Nevim, zda se tim mini "deleno", nebo ve srovnani?

Last, treatment-effect inference at week 12 will be obtained from the pooled GEE
results over imputations
diky moc
Sabina

Skvele! Ja take prijdu a moc se tesim :)

- Liz

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Foren - Helga <listen@...> wrote:
>
> Zdravim,
>
> vzhledem k tomu, ze se na 2 dny nachazim v Praze bylo Pavlem J.
> rozhodnuto, ze zvolame na rychlo meeting :-)
>
> Stul je objednan zde http://www.kristian-marco.cz/index.php/listek.
> <http://www.kristian-marco.cz/index.php/listek>
> Bude-li pocasi hezke doprejem si venkovni seseni :-)
>
> Uz se na vas tesim
> Helga
>
> <http://www.kristian-marco.cz/index.php/listek>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In this context it means the results, obtained using MI-GEE methods (multiple
imputation) - that is, including the estimated (not real) results also for the
cases of patients drop out.
Sorry, I cannot help with the Czech term here.

Mihail

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: SABINA KRÁLOVÁ
   To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 6:21 PM
   Subject: [Czechlist] over ve statistickem kontextu



   Ahoj,

   mohl by mi prosim nekdo z Vas poradit s terminem "results over imputantions" v
nize uvedene vete? Nevim, zda se tim mini "deleno", nebo ve srovnani?

   Last, treatment-effect inference at week 12 will be obtained from the pooled
GEE results over imputations
   diky moc
   Sabina





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Such as, at the end of an article describing the exhibits at a museum,
"Vystaven� expon�ty jsou..." (+ no contrast to exhibits that are NOT out on
display)... that is what you have in mind, right?

Liz

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
> >
> > Another one that drives me crazy is the various words in Czech and German
that translate as "used" but would not be written in English.
> >
> > So bad translations say something like "the used fluid" or "the used
device".  This means that everything is ojete or pouzite.  To say that it's the
one you're using now (that's not ojete or pouzite), you would have to say "the
fluid used" or "the device used".
>
> OK. Or sometimes I think this is what definite articles and demonstrative
pronouns were invented for. Nothing else needed in some unambiguous cases IMHO.
>
> Note to self:  must come back to this one with more examples of superfluous
participles.
>
> BR
>
> M.
>

Exactly.

Jamie

On May 3, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Liz wrote:

> Such as, at the end of an article describing the exhibits at a museum,
"Vystavene exponaty jsou..." (+ no contrast to exhibits that are NOT out on
display)... that is what you have in mind, right?
>
> Liz
>
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Another one that drives me crazy is the various words in Czech and German
that translate as "used" but would not be written in English.
>>>
>>> So bad translations say something like "the used fluid" or "the used
device".  This means that everything is ojete or pouzite.  To say that it's the
one you're using now (that's not ojete or pouzite), you would have to say "the
fluid used" or "the device used".
>>
>> OK. Or sometimes I think this is what definite articles and demonstrative
pronouns were invented for. Nothing else needed in some unambiguous cases IMHO.
>>
>> Note to self:  must come back to this one with more examples of superfluous
participles.
>>
>> BR
>>
>> M.
>>
>
>
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--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@...> wrote:
>
> Such as, at the end of an article describing the exhibits at a museum,
"Vystaven� expon�ty jsou..." (+ no contrast to exhibits that are NOT out on
display)... that is what you have in mind, right?

Yes, another fine specimen for our collection.

I had a rummage in my notes and came up with:

Mel vykyvne polonapravy obvykle konstrukce Tatra. Pouzity motor Tatra 108 byl
odvozen od znameho dvanactivalcoveho motoru Tatra 111.

It had the standard Tatra-design swinging half-axle, and its Tatra 108 engine
was developed from the well-known twelve-cylinder Tatra 111.

nebylo totiz mozne obratit se na soud, pokud jedna ze stran porusila uzavrenou
smlouvu.

as it was not possible to refer to a court if one of the parties breached the
agreement.

Normally I would not play fast and loose with the wording in legal texts, but
here I figured that you cannnot breach an agreement that you have not entered
into.

????

BR

M.

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Muzeum se stalou vystavou na tema osobnost TGM a jeho rodina
> >A museum with a permanent exhibition on Masaryk the man and his family.
> >Couldn't you also use legend and/or legacy in some contexts? (probably
> >not here as it presumably deals with his time..)


I think here we are contrasting Masaryk the old chap who e.g. enjoyed riding
around a bit on horseback and Masaryk the figurehead dressed in white who rides
a white horse while aetherial music plays in the background (you've seen the
film, now visit the museum). Actually, there is a very nice museum in Lany just
down the road from us and round the corner from the llama farm (don't ask). Well
worth a visit if you and your family like historical exhibitions. Some of the
period depictions are a bit larger than life - literally. TGM towers over the
assembled populace as he leads them forward. I believe he himself often
complained about this kind of portrayal.

But TGM is an extreme case. I reckon this solution might sometimes be useful in
phrases like Zdenka Braunerova: d�lo a osobnost - the woman and her work.

BR

M.

Thanks! It really helped.
Sabina
   -----Original Message-----
   From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Mihail Mihaylov
   Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 5:36 PM
   To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [Czechlist] over ve statistickem kontextu



   In this context it means the results, obtained using MI-GEE methods (multiple
imputation) - that is, including the estimated (not real) results also for the
cases of patients drop out.
   Sorry, I cannot help with the Czech term here.

   Mihail

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: SABINA KRÁLOVÁ
   To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 6:21 PM
   Subject: [Czechlist] over ve statistickem kontextu

   Ahoj,

   mohl by mi prosim nekdo z Vas poradit s terminem "results over imputantions" v
nize uvedene vete? Nevim, zda se tim mini "deleno", nebo ve srovnani?

   Last, treatment-effect inference at week 12 will be obtained from the pooled
GEE results over imputations
   diky moc
   Sabina

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

dotaz k tem, co jsou registrovani jako platci DPH (predpokladam, ze vsichni!):

na rozdil od danoveho priznani, ktere lze podavat v papirove forme, Souhrnne
hlaseni lze podavat pouze elektronicky - bud na strankach EPO s overenym
elektronickym pdopisem, nebo prostrednictvim datove schranky.
Jak to delate? Zridili jste si kvl�li tomu datovou schranku? Nebo je jeste
nejaka jina moznost?
Diky, Honza

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Na DPH ti staci elektronicky podpis (certifikat). Na odesilaci strance
je okynko k vyhledani certifikatoveho souboru na disku. Na dan z prijmu
(pokud nechces na postu) uz musis mit schranku.

Elektronicky podpis stoji neco ke ctyrem stovkam rocne a da se sjednat
po vyplneni par lejster na poste (PostSignum). Schranka je tusim zdarma
(ale odesilani priznani k DPH neni tak komfortni jako s podpisem).

Martin

Dne 4.5.2012 8:18, Jan Culka napsal(a):
>
> Hi all,
>
> dotaz k tem, co jsou registrovani jako platci DPH (predpokladam, ze
> vsichni!):
>
> na rozdil od danoveho priznani, ktere lze podavat v papirove forme,
> Souhrnne hlaseni lze podavat pouze elektronicky - bud na strankach EPO
> s overenym elektronickym pdopisem, nebo prostrednictvim datove schranky.
> Jak to delate? Zridili jste si kvl�li tomu datovou schranku? Nebo je
> jeste nejaka jina moznost?
> Diky, Honza
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
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ARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNDM1ODgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzEzMzYxMTIyOTc->
>
> Switch to: Text-Only
>
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:%20Traditional>,
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>

Ahoj Honzo,

Uc(et na datoveschranky.info jsem me(l o dost dr(ive nez jsem se musel
stat platcem DPH, takze jej pouzivam na veskerou komunikaci se statni
spravou, krome( Financ(niho ur(adu take tr(eba se Spravou socialniho
zabezpec(eni. Dan(ova pr(iznani a Souhrnna hlaseni VIES vypln(uji ve
webovem prohlizec(i na adisspr.mfcr.cz <http://adisspr.mfcr.cz/>.
Vysledne soubory xml a pdf posilam pr(es "datovky". Nicmene( by me(ly
tyto vysledky jit posilat pr(imo z Dan(oveho portalu pomoci pr(islusneho
podpisoveho certifikatu.

Pr(ehled o pr(ijmech a vydajich pro socialku se da stahnout jako
elektronicky formular( pro program Form Filler of spolec(nosti
Software602, ktery je "systemovym pozadavkem" na provoz Datovych
schranek. Pokud jiz neni na poc(itac(i instalovan, vnuti se to pr(i
pr(ihlaseni k Datovych schrankam. Myslim, ze to chodi jenom s relativne(
novymi verzemi prohlizec(u* Microsoft Internet Explorer a Mozilla Firefox.

Datove schranky vyuzivaji vyhradne( webove rozhrani a ja pouzivam dva
pr(ihlasovaci udaje. Pr(i spravnem pr(ihlasovacim jmene(, ale
opakovanych pokusech o pr(ihlaseni se spatnym heslem se asi na potr(eti
uc(et zablokuje a je potr(eba zadat pr(es pr(epazku na postovnim ur(ade(
o nove pr(ihlasovaci udaje, ktere pr(ijdou za ne(kolik dni postou a
stoji to ne(jaky peniz. Prvni zr(izeni by snad zatim por(ad me(lo byt
zdarma. Pr(ihlasovat by se vsak me(lo dat i jinak:
www.mojedatovaschranka.cz.

Samotna obsluha Datovych schranek se pr(ilis nelisi od be(zne
elektronicke posty. Jde i nastavit zasilani oznameni o pr(ichozich
zpravach na e-mailovou adresu. Neni tam te(lo zpravy, veskera sde(leni
jsou v pr(ilohach. Datovky by me(ly jit vyuzivat jako nahrada
doporuc(enych listovnich zasilek a pravnicke osoby ji maji povinnou. To
je ale sluzba za penize.

Mam i kvalifikovany osobni certifikat PostSignum (www.postsignum.cz)
<http://www.postsignum.cz/>, ale zrovna PostSignum asi por(ad jeste(
rozlisuje mezi certifikatem pro osobni uc(ely a pro komunikaci se statni
spravou. Zda se, ze kazdy z nich je jinak ove(r(ovan a nejsou
zame(nitelne, zatimco u jinych certifikac(nich autorit je, co ja vim,
nabizen jenom jeden druh kvalifikovanych osobnich certifikatu*, ktery
lze pouzit pro oba uc(ely, ale stoji pr(iblizne( to same jako oba
certifikaty od PostSignum v souc(tu. Takto ne(jak to alespon( bylo, kdyz
jsem si zr(izoval prvni certifikat...

Jirka Bolech

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Jirko a Martine, diky za osvetleni.
Honza

Souhlasim s Jirkou, s temito doplnky:

Ano, Postsignum rozlisuje mezi osobnim a podnikatelskym, ale bernak uz
zrejme ne - mam osobni certifikat a DPH mi funguje taky.

FormFiller muzu na dan z prijmu vrele doporucit - zkousel jsem ruzne
varianty, ale takhle je z nich jednoznacne nejkomfortnejsi.

Vybirat adresata (bernak) pri odesilani pres datovou schranku je nocni
mura a komfortu normalniho mailoveho postaka jejich system nesaha ani po
kotniky. Asi ho postupne vylepsuji, ale maji jeste hooodne prace.

Martin


Dne 4.5.2012 9:40, Jirka Bolech napsal(a):
>
> Ahoj Honzo,
>
> Uc(et na datoveschranky.info jsem me(l o dost dr(ive nez jsem se musel
> stat platcem DPH, takze jej pouzivam na veskerou komunikaci se statni
> spravou, krome( Financ(niho ur(adu take tr(eba se Spravou socialniho
> zabezpec(eni. Dan(ova pr(iznani a Souhrnna hlaseni VIES vypln(uji ve
> webovem prohlizec(i na adisspr.mfcr.cz <http://adisspr.mfcr.cz/>.
> Vysledne soubory xml a pdf posilam pr(es "datovky". Nicmene( by me(ly
> tyto vysledky jit posilat pr(imo z Dan(oveho portalu pomoci pr(islusneho
> podpisoveho certifikatu.
>
> Pr(ehled o pr(ijmech a vydajich pro socialku se da stahnout jako
> elektronicky formular( pro program Form Filler of spolec(nosti
> Software602, ktery je "systemovym pozadavkem" na provoz Datovych
> schranek. Pokud jiz neni na poc(itac(i instalovan, vnuti se to pr(i
> pr(ihlaseni k Datovych schrankam. Myslim, ze to chodi jenom s relativne(
> novymi verzemi prohlizec(u* Microsoft Internet Explorer a Mozilla Firefox.
>
> Datove schranky vyuzivaji vyhradne( webove rozhrani a ja pouzivam dva
> pr(ihlasovaci udaje. Pr(i spravnem pr(ihlasovacim jmene(, ale
> opakovanych pokusech o pr(ihlaseni se spatnym heslem se asi na potr(eti
> uc(et zablokuje a je potr(eba zadat pr(es pr(epazku na postovnim ur(ade(
> o nove pr(ihlasovaci udaje, ktere pr(ijdou za ne(kolik dni postou a
> stoji to ne(jaky peniz. Prvni zr(izeni by snad zatim por(ad me(lo byt
> zdarma. Pr(ihlasovat by se vsak me(lo dat i jinak:
> www.mojedatovaschranka.cz.
>
> Samotna obsluha Datovych schranek se pr(ilis nelisi od be(zne
> elektronicke posty. Jde i nastavit zasilani oznameni o pr(ichozich
> zpravach na e-mailovou adresu. Neni tam te(lo zpravy, veskera sde(leni
> jsou v pr(ilohach. Datovky by me(ly jit vyuzivat jako nahrada
> doporuc(enych listovnich zasilek a pravnicke osoby ji maji povinnou. To
> je ale sluzba za penize.
>
> Mam i kvalifikovany osobni certifikat PostSignum (www.postsignum.cz)
> <http://www.postsignum.cz/>, ale zrovna PostSignum asi por(ad jeste(
> rozlisuje mezi certifikatem pro osobni uc(ely a pro komunikaci se statni
> spravou. Zda se, ze kazdy z nich je jinak ove(r(ovan a nejsou
> zame(nitelne, zatimco u jinych certifikac(nich autorit je, co ja vim,
> nabizen jenom jeden druh kvalifikovanych osobnich certifikatu*, ktery
> lze pouzit pro oba uc(ely, ale stoji pr(iblizne( to same jako oba
> certifikaty od PostSignum v souc(tu. Takto ne(jak to alespon( bylo, kdyz
> jsem si zr(izoval prvni certifikat...
>
> Jirka Bolech
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
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ARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNDM1ODgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzEzMzYxMTcyODU->
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Or what would you do with osobnosti here? Any clever thoughts? My idea is upside
down at the bottom of the page. :-)

Badatelske zamereni:
Dejiny vedy, vedeckych instituci a osobnosti vedeckeho zivota v Ceskoslovensku;
Politicke dejiny stredni Evropy v 19. stoleti.

BR

M.





sǝɹnƃıɟ ʇuǝuıɯoɹd

I've run into another interesting difference in perception between English and
Czech:

graficke zpracovani

In some of the texts I translate, the Czech original treats what in English
would be considered design as a type of data processing.  So you get statements
like this, which if translated literally into English would be downright weird:

"Data zpracovavame ve vseobecne uznavanych grafickych programech (Adobe
Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, InDesign, PageMaker, QuarkXPress, FrameMaker,
CorelDraw atd.)."

The English-speaking mind (or at least the American mind) does not think of
designing on a computer as processing data.  It's considered more akin to
drawing or painting, and the computer is almost incidental.

I don't know how relevant this is, but most younger Americans tend to be totally
stupid as to what a computer is and how it processes data.  People now in their
50s (at least in my town) were taught at age 10 to do binary addition,
subtraction, multiplication and division, so understanding computers is not a
big jump.  However, when teaching linguistics to contemporary American education
students -- even those training to be math and science teachers :-S -- I found
that the vast majority of them don't know what the word "binary" means, and it's
hard to teach them the concept.  This means that they have no clue how a
computer works and basically think of it as a TV that "knows" things.  So
"processing data" is the farthest thing from their minds, and doing things in a
computer has little to do with data.

Jamie



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The history of science, scientific institutions and notable scientists in
Czechoslovakia.

In another context I might write "notable figures in science".

Jamie

On May 4, 2012, at 8:26 AM, Melvyn wrote:

> Or what would you do with osobnosti here? Any clever thoughts? My idea is
upside down at the bottom of the page. :-)
>
> Badatelske zamereni:
> Dejiny vedy, vedeckych instituci a osobnosti vedeckeho zivota v
Ceskoslovensku;
> Politicke dejiny stredni Evropy v 19. stoleti.
>
> BR
>
> M.
>
>
>
>
>
> sǝɹnƃıɟ ʇuǝuıɯoɹd
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Czechlist mailing list
> Czechlist@...
> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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Greetings Czechlisters,

For some strange reason one of my long-standing customers sent me an English
legal text that he needs translated to Czech on Monday. I guess he forgot that I
only translate into English. It is about 22 normo. If anybody would like to
spend a few hours this weekend at their computer, let me know off-list. And name
your price! Thanks!

kasha at terminal dot cz

Hope I am not going to offend anyone with this. My girlfriend is translating
something from Lonely Planet into Czech and it talks about a hotel which
attracts a "young, hip and shag-happy crowd - the rooftop bar fairly pulses".
Shag-happy to me means that they are out looking for sex, but I might be mixing
my dialects and she found a blog entry describing David Cameron and Barack Obama
as "smooth-talking shag-happy liars" so I cannot see that my interpretation
really fits. Thanks in advance

Charlie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is written in the Czechlist Users' Guide:

...because this is a language list, vulgar and/or offensive words are sometimes
actually the subject of discussion. There is no need to feel squeamish about
mentioning a word of this kind in such a context... [smelling salts required if
you wish to read on]
https://sites.google.com/site/czechlist2/

I found another example on the Lonely Planet site, so possibly by the same
author?

the tequila flows as freely as the testosterone, and a shag-happy crowd sweats
it out to live music until dawn.

My impression from this context is that it basically means (caution: low
colloquial expression ahead) randy. Can't imagine what else it could mean.

BR

M.


--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Stanford Translations"
<charliestanfordtranslations@...> wrote:
>
> Hope I am not going to offend anyone with this. My girlfriend is translating
something from Lonely Planet into Czech and it talks about a hotel which
attracts a "young, hip and shag-happy crowd - the rooftop bar fairly pulses".
Shag-happy to me means that they are out looking for sex, but I might be mixing
my dialects and she found a blog entry describing David Cameron and Barack Obama
as "smooth-talking shag-happy liars" so I cannot see that my interpretation
really fits. Thanks in advance
>
> Charlie
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>