Hello everyone,

I've been fruitlessly looking for the names of "vybijena" and "skakat
panaka". I'm afraid that the former is specifically Czech, but the latter
should be a piece of cake for a native speaker of English once you know what
I'm talking about (I'm not very good at ASCII art, but there's this jack on
the ground [drawn by chalk...] and you hop up and down it missing a field
each round after throwing a stone to it...):

    (  )
[ ][ ][ ]
    [  ]
    [  ]
    [  ]

I've forgotten the rules of "vybijena" since it's normally only played by
school children and I'm quite elderly now

:-)

and I never really played it much anyway.
You basically play in two teams throwing a ball at each other trying to hit
the opponent teams' players.

Thanks for your enlightening me on this.

Jirka Bolech
Liberec, CR

Dear Jirka,

"skakat panaka" is "Hopscotch" in English but I'm afraid that although I
remember playing something like "vybijena" when I was a nipper, I can't for
the life of me remember what it was.

HTH

Coilin O' Connor
-----Původní zpráva-----
Od: Jirka Bolech <jirka.bolech@...>
Komu: CzEnglish-L <CzEn@...>; CzechList <Czechlist@onelist.com>;
CzechEd <CzechEd@onelist.com>
Datum: 3. ledna 2000 14:57
Předmět: [Czechlist] English names of a couple games


>From: "Jirka Bolech" <jirka.bolech@...>
>
>Hello everyone,
>
>I've been fruitlessly looking for the names of "vybijena" and "skakat
>panaka". I'm afraid that the former is specifically Czech, but the latter
>should be a piece of cake for a native speaker of English once you know
what
>I'm talking about (I'm not very good at ASCII art, but there's this jack on
>the ground [drawn by chalk...] and you hop up and down it missing a field
>each round after throwing a stone to it...):
>
>   (  )
>[ ][ ][ ]
>   [  ]
>   [  ]
>   [  ]
>
>I've forgotten the rules of "vybijena" since it's normally only played by
>school children and I'm quite elderly now
>
>:-)
>
>and I never really played it much anyway.
>You basically play in two teams throwing a ball at each other trying to hit
>the opponent teams' players.
>
>Thanks for your enlightening me on this.
>
>Jirka Bolech
>Liberec, CR
>
>>Community email addresses:
>  Post message: Czechlist@onelist.com
>  Subscribe:    Czechlist-subscribe@onelist.com
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>
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>  http://www.onelist.com/community/Czechlist
>
>
>

Hi Jirka,


>
>I've been fruitlessly looking for the names of "vybijena" and "skakat
>panaka". I'm afraid that the former is specifically Czech,

I reckon that vybijena is closely related to "dodgeball", one of those games
that have been played throughout Europe in more or less the same form since
Roman times:

The object is to throw the ball at the opposing team and contact one or more
of the opponents. Any person contacted by a
thrown ball on the fly is out of the game. The person throwing the ball is
out if the ball is caught by an opposing player on the fly.

About the same, yes?

I don't think the Poldauf-Pynsent dictionary is very helpful on this one
with its description of a "ball-game similar to pig-in-the-middle".

>there's this jack on
>the ground [drawn by chalk...] and you hop up and down it missing a field
>each round after throwing a stone to it...):
>
>    (  )
>  [ ][ ][ ]
>    [  ]
>    [  ]
>    [  ]
>
Very nice:). I agree that this is hopscotch, commonly known here as nebe,
peklo, raj.

Melvyn

Horlivi rybari mezi Vami asi uvitaji vydani noveho anglicko-ceskeho
cesko-anglickeho
slovniku rybarskeho Nakladatelstvim Fraus. Obsahuje priblizne 7000 hesel a
vazeb z oblasti
sportovniho a profesionalniho rybarstvi a stoji 195 Kc.

Take vidim, ze toto nakladatelstvi pripravuje celou serii odbornych
prekladovych slovniku
vcetne c-a a-c zemedelskeho slovniku a slovniku vypocetni techniky.

S pozdravem,

Melvyn

At 14:52 1994/01/03 +0100, Jirka Bolech wrote:
>I've been fruitlessly looking for the names of "vybijena"

Seconding Melvyn re the likely usability of dodgeball.  Whatever
differences there might be in "received rules" locally would be, I imagine,
relatively unimportant compared to the similarities.  For assurance or
comparison, I offer a couple of pages showing the English term's basic
meaning & its breadth:

http://www.gameskidsplay.net/games/ball_games/dodgeball.html
and
http://www.indiana.edu/~recsport/intramurals/dodgeball/rules.html

> . . . and "skakat panaka"  . . . hop up and down it missing a field
>each round after throwing a stone to it...):

Again seconding Melvyn, re hopscotch:
http://www.how2hq.com/how2home/kids/games/hm09gm08/hm09gm0801.htm
and
http://www.streetplay.com/thegames/hopscotch.htm



Michael Trittipo
Minneapolis, Minnesota
mailto:tritt002@...

Thanks Melvyn and Michael T. for your replies on the two games.

Just a remark: I'm getting these split personality syndroms from subscribing
to Czechlist and CzechEd at a time. It seems to me, there are cross
references in the postings. Well, nothing lethal, I suppose.

Jirka Bolech
Liberec, CR
+420-48-6202703
+420-604-822298 (cell phone)

A warm welcome to all new members.

Some of you may be interested to hear about a a very useful study of Cz/Eng
translation
problems that I have been dipping into recently: "The Noun in Translation -
a Czech-English
Contrastive Study" by Ales Klegr - Charles University Press 1996. This study
is described in
the preface as "the application of the morphological and syntactic
description of language to
the results of translation from Czech to English. Its aim is to show how the
Czech noun is
reflected in the English translation text, i.e. to establish the degree of
morphological and
syntactic correspondence and the factors involved...It examines the spectrum
of potential
solutions in translating the Czech noun, the main tendencies and the ...
character of the
translation shifts involved".

The author has examined extracts from seven different translations of Czech
texts which he
has judged to be of a high standard. Five of these texts are literary and
the other two are
technical. He has analysed each translation of the original noun and noted
any change in
word-class, additions, omissions and so forth.

You might find the overall results surprising.
"From the total of 3706 Czech nouns in the texts, 74.9% have standard
dictionary
equivalents. In other words, in 3/4 of cases, professional translators of
the investigated texts
used expressions that can be found in a standard bilingual general
dictionary. Only in the
next 16.4% did the translator create his/her own equivalent - in 5.6% it was
a close
adaptation of the standard equivalent (synonym, hyperonym or hyponym) and in
10.8% it
was a purely ad hoc translation. In the remaining 8.7% the translator did
not formally
translate the Czech noun at all. With a certain simplification it may be
said that in one fourth
of the cases the translator resorts to his/her own solutions and departs
from the standard
offer of equivalents in reference books".

Klegr comments: "With regard to the existing state of affairs in bilingual
dictionaries, which
are almost exclusively based on the principle of word-class correspondence,
the fact that
this principle is not in accordance with translators' practice in 10-20% of
cases (depending
on whether potential or only realized non-noun equivalents are taken into
account) is quite
significant. Together with the figures on the occurrence of standard
dictionary equivalents,
these findings rather tellingly document the limits to which bilingual
dictionaries are or can
be put to use".

The analysis of the individual translations of nouns and their context is a
goldmine of
inspiration. I recommend it to everybody.


Klegr makes another interesting comment on a different issue:

"One of the basic principles of professional translating is that the
translator has to translate
into his/her mother tongue. For instance, the Code of Professional Conduct
of the Institute of
Translation and Interpreting says: '...a Member shall translate only into a
language in which
he has mother-tongue or equivalent competence, or interpret only between
languages in one
of which he has mother-tongue or equivalent competence (Article 4)'.
Similar, in fact, even
more purist views are voiced by a number of authors of practical translation
handbooks.

This logical demand is naturally enough respected in translations into
Czech. When it comes
to translation into English, however, the principle is untenable: there are
not, and never will
be, enough English native-speakers [...] with adequate knowledge of Czech to
meet the
demand. This gap must and probably will always have to be filled by Czech
speakers."



BTW can anybody recommend any other literature of interest in this field, on
translation studies as a whole or on Czech<>English translation in
particular?

Melvyn

Many thanks to Vit for uploading some Trados CAT software to the Czechlist
files area. I haven't had the time to look at it yet myself - any chance of
a quick review, Vit?

Melvyn
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Hi everybody,
I seem to see "bile musky" instead of "bile mysky" - does anybody know what
"whiteflies" (Aleyrodidae) may be called in Czech? And "meristem-tip cultures"?
"Double-antibody sandwich"? And what is the difference between mild green and
light green?
Sorry for so many questions - I will appreciate any suggestions!
Thanks a lot,
Irena

>BTW can anybody recommend any other literature of interest in this field,
on
>translation studies as a whole or on Czech<>English translation in
>particular?



Melvyn,

I suppose Acta Universitatis Carolinae, Translatologica Pragensia was your
source in this case. If not, you can find some good read about
translation/interpreting there, though not purely Czech < > English and, one
must admit, quite academical at times.

I was also able to derive some benefit from '9 x O PREKLADU' - conference
proceedings focused primarily on literary translation; the 62-page document
was published by JTP in 1994.

The one article I got really enthusiastic about is entitled 'K pragmaticke
ekvivalenci v prekladech ceskych neliterarnich textu do anglictiny' and I
would be tempted to consider it an absolute MUST for every Czech-to-English
translator. It is a solid piece of work based on a thorough analysis of
real-life texts with lots of practical examples, no scientific gobbledegook.
The author is Patrick Corness and the article was published in ToP (the JTP
quarterly) No. 42, September 1998, pp. 7 - 11.

Best wishes to all

David

Ahoj Ireno,

Cituji knihu "Choroby a skudci okrasnych rostlin" - od Valaskove a kolektivu
-SZN - s. 80:

"Molice (Aleurodoida) maji cele telo i strechovite slozena kridla pokryty
voskovymi, drobnymi,
belostnymi vypotky a proto se jim take rika 'bile musky'"

Fuj.

Potvrzuje to majitel naseho mistniho zahradnictvi (Get your plants from Petr
Franc, Kamenne
Zehrovice), ktery rika, ze ten tvuj druhy problem je nejaka "meristemova
kultura", ale nevi co
tam mas za sendvic.

"Light green" je normalni slovni spojeni kdezto fraze "mild green" je ve
srovnani dost vzacna kolokace, podle me. Mozna, ze se slovo "mild" vztahuje
s nejakym podstatnym jmenem?

S pozdravem,

Melvyn

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

myslim si, ze temhle cisticim zarizenim se rikalo jezek





At 08:12 AM 12/30/1999 +0100, you wrote:
>From: "Jirka Bolech" <jirka.bolech@...>
>
>Hi
>
>Sorry to trouble you at the festive season of the year end. I'm doing this
>awful text from English to Czech. It's a description of equipment for a car
>body painting line by German company Durr/Behr. The English is rather bad
>and
>context poor, which makes it hard for me to see the meanings of some of the
>expressions.
>
>There's one I'm racking my brains about to find the Czech expression for.
>It's plainly called a "pig" and it's the name for a device that can travel
>down a hose or pipe, a bit like a piston in a cylinder of a combustion
>engine, but no con-rod (see http://www.starpig.com/Pig_Products.html).
>
>I would quite simply call it a "prase", but I'm afraid that's not it. Thanks
>for any inspiration.
>
>Sorry if you receive this message more than once.
>
>Jirka Bolech
>Liberec, CR
>
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Subscription $30 per calendar year (or $3 per month if you are subscribing
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(cash, check, VISA, MASTER and AMEX accepted)

>
>Ahoj Melvyne, >

>>"Light green" je normalni slovni spojeni kdezto fraze "mild green" je ve
>srovnani dost vzacna kolokace, podle me. Mozna, ze se slovo "mild" vztahuje
>s nejakym podstatnym jmenem?

>Jedna se o nazev viru - "tobacco mild green mosaic tobamovirus"; necham ho
asi svetle zeleny.
>
ten tvuj druhy problem je nejaka "meristemova
>kultura", ale nevi co
>tam mas za sendvic.
>
>Ten sendvic je pro zmenu soucasti jakehosi "antiviroveho" testu - budu to
zrejme muset vyresit nejakym opisem.
Diky!
Irena

Hi everybody
I have somehow been out of touch, although receiving the daily digests.
Well, I have read a little about CAT lately and my opinion is that the very idea
of CAT may not be dismissed lightheartedly. Just a few remarks:
Many years ago, computers were believed not to be able to play chess, ever.
Those days, the chess game was considered too creative for computers to cope.
Today, programmes like Chessmaster simply compare a database of 300 000 chess
games with a single move in a game and are able to achieve a high standard of
excellence in the final product, i. e. the chess game for this instance.
Mentioning the chess and computers, many similarities may be drawn to CAT.
Again, a database is compared with a "single move" (a translation of a segment,
which is usually a sentence) and a suggestion is made on a basis of database
contents.
Just when the time comes of readily available reliable databases of millions of
"segment translation solutions" nobody can really be certain.
Vit

Vit Ruzicka wrote:

> Well, I have read a little about CAT lately and my opinion is that the
very idea of CAT may not be dismissed lightheartedly. Just a few remarks:

I can't recall Computer-Aided Translating (that's what CAT stands for, isn't
it - I hate abbreviations) discussed on the list, but whatever has been said
I'm sure anything that can be put in an algorithm, can be processed by a
"computer". It depends on the technology level. So why don't we just set up
a business to be the first to develop such technology so we are not the ones
who will lose by such development? I know, there ain't enough cash. Let's go
on translating the primitive tedious way, then.

Jirka Bolech
Liberec, CR

>I'm sure anything that can be put in an algorithm, can be processed by a
>"computer". It depends on the technology level.

A pretty big leap to assume that language translation can be
algorithmic, isn't it? I rather suspect it can't.


>So why don't we just set up
>a business to be the first to develop such technology so we are not the ones
>who will lose by such development? I know, there ain't enough cash. Let's go
>on translating the primitive tedious way, then.

People have been working on it for decades with very limited results.
Right now the most promising avenue seems to be "controlled
language"--i.e. writing texts specifically to be processed by machine
translation systems. I suppose a lot of the computer manuals that
have been our bread and butter lately could theoretically be written
that way....

Michael

Hi everybody in the New Year,

I'd like to say someting about the CAT tools as I have been studying them
and working with them for a couple of years now. I think there exists a
common misunderstanding what this acronym stands for.

CAT tools can be divided into MT and MAHT tools. The first acronym stands
for Machine Translation and there is still a long way to go, in order to
achieve really acceptable results.
The second stands for Machine Aided Human Translation. This is the kind of
tools I have been using. Some examples - Trados Translator's Workbench, IBM
Translation Manager, Atril's DejaVu, which is my favorite. These tools are
really valuable if you have repetitive translations as software
localiyations, technical manuals, etc. This type of tools is quite mature
and of a great help to any experienced technical translator.
MT tools are focused on people having little or none language knowledge and
they are, at least nowadays, able to give you just a very high-level
overview of a document contents, sometimes in a funny language. However, Vit
is right these tools are constantly being improved and with the increasing
computing power the results are also beginning to be more and more
acceptable. But the way to a perfect translation is still long and, by my
opinion, unachievable, due the each language variability. More complicated
texts will remain in hands of professional translators, the easier ones will
be automatically processed using MT tools.

Regards,

Otto

> >I'm sure anything that can be put in an algorithm, can be processed by a
> >"computer". It depends on the technology level.
>
> A pretty big leap to assume that language translation can be
> algorithmic, isn't it? I rather suspect it can't.

I leave this to everybody to decide for herself or himself.

Jirka Bolech
Liberec, CR

Dobry den,
po dlouhe odmlce, kdy jsem ve volnych chvilich prochazel starsi Digests, v nichz
je k nalezeni mnoho zabavy a pouceni, k vam prichazim s problemem, jejz se
snazim uspokojive vyresit jiz drahnou dobu:
" ... prijimame Vasi nabidku s tim, ze pote, co budou ucineny z Vasi strany
prislusne kroky, bude faktura uhrazena ..." Jde o frekventovane - a pekne
hnusne, IMHO - spojeni "s tim, ze". Pokazde, kdyz ho prekladam, lehce se orosim,
nastvu a nakonec odchazim od pocitace s pocitem, ze preklad neni dobry. Mate
nekdo nejake elegantni varianty???

Zdravim
Martin Koci
FL tr.-interp.-teach.
tel.: 0628/34 44 33
marko2@...

P.S.
Melvin´s "Resources for Translators" or "FAQ Transl. Problems" and others (the
Mushroom dict. - wow!!!) are fabulous!!! Good job, Melvin!

>" ... prijimame Vasi nabidku s tim, ze pote, co budou ucineny z Vasi
>strany prislusne kroky, bude faktura uhrazena ..." Jde o
>frekventovane - a pekne hnusne, IMHO - spojeni "s tim, ze". Pokazde,
>kdyz ho prekladam, lehce se orosim, nastvu a nakonec odchazim od
>pocitace s pocitem, ze preklad neni dobry. Mate nekdo nejake
>elegantni varianty???

Hledáte teda varianty v c'es'tine', nebo jde o pr'eklady do cizího jazyka?

Michael

Martin Koci napsal:

> " ... prijimame Vasi nabidku s tim, ze pote, co budou ucineny z Vasi
strany prislusne kroky, bude faktura uhrazena ..." Jde o frekventovane - a
pekne hnusne, IMHO - spojeni "s tim, ze". Pokazde, kdyz ho prekladam, lehce
se orosim, nastvu a nakonec odchazim od pocitace s pocitem, ze preklad neni
dobry. Mate nekdo nejake elegantni varianty???

Zda se mi, ze toto je mozne prekladat ruzne a ze obecne to vyresi treba
prechodnik nejakeho vhodneho slovesa. Napriklad zde bych pouzil (we are
accepting your offer,) "stipulating" (that after relevant steps have been
taken by your party, the invoice will be remitted). Zitra bych to mozna
prelozil trochu jinak. ;-)

Urcite jsem na "s tim, ze" narazil mnohokrat, ale musel bych chvili patrat,
jak to vlastne pokazde prekladam. Treba se s tim, ze jsem to nasel jeste
ozvu.

Jirka Bolech
Liberec, CR

>Napriklad zde bych pouzil (we are
>accepting your offer

Should be "We accept...." The continuous verb forms in English seem
to give Czech speakers more trouble than anything else, even
articles. They're NOT equivalent to imperfectives in Slavic
languages--in fact they're really not even close.

Michael

Martine,

ja bych to ignoroval. Proc si lamat hlavu s blbostmi Cechu, kteri neumeji cesky?

...we accept your offer (quote). The invoice will be paid once ... (you take the
steps required).

Ostatne, vzdycky se muzes utesit starou dobrou zasadou GIGO (garbage in, garbage
out).

zdravi

Martin

>" ... prijimame Vasi nabidku s tim, ze pote, co budou ucineny z Vasi strany
prislusne kroky, bude faktura >uhrazena ..." Jde o frekventovane - a pekne
hnusne, IMHO - spojeni "s tim, ze". Pokazde, kdyz ho prekladam, lehce >se
orosim, nastvu a nakonec odchazim od pocitace s pocitem, ze preklad neni dobry.
Mate nekdo nejake elegantni >varianty???

Ahoj vespolek,

Martin Koci napsal:

>" ... prijimame Vasi nabidku s tim, ze pote, co budou ucineny z Vasi
strany prislusne kroky, bude faktura uhrazena ..." Jde o frekventovane - a
pekne hnusne, IMHO - spojeni "s tim, ze". Pokazde, kdyz ho prekladam, lehce
se orosim, nastvu a nakonec odchazim od pocitace s pocitem, ze preklad neni
dobry. Mate nekdo nejake elegantni varianty???

Kdyz toto spojeni pouze oznacuje, ze nasleduje nejaka dodatecna informace,
mam sklon je
uplne vynechat, anebo pouzit jednoduchou spojku jako "and", anebo dokonce
strednik, jako
v prekladu Zakona c. 328/1991 Sb. o konkursu a vyrovnani §24 (2) od firmy
Trade Links:

Popre-li spravce narok uz vykonatelny, vyzve ho soud, aby sve popreni
uplatnil do 30 dnu u
soudu, ktery prohlasil konkurs, popripade u jineho prislusneho organu s tim,
ze jinak se
narok bude povazovat za zjisteny.

Should the trustee contest an already enforceable claim, the court shall
invite him to assert,
within 30 days, his right not to recognize a claim at the court which
adjudicated the
bankruptcy order, or with another appropriate authority; otherwise the claim
shall be
considered as recognized.


Kdyz toto spojeni nefunguje pouze jako urednicka vata ale spis jako dost
blizke synonymum vyrazu "za
predpokladu, ze", troufil bych si pouzit vyraz jako  "with the proviso
that", "on condition that" nebo "on the
understanding that" i kdyz me v tom slovniky moc nepodporuji. Moc se mi take
libi to reseni od Jirky.

>Mate nekdo nejake elegantni varianty???

Or you can always just convey it with your body language:)


>P.S.
>Melvyn´s "Resources for Translators" or "FAQ Transl. Problems" and others
>(the Mushroom dict. - wow!!!) are fabulous!!! Good job, Melvyn!
>

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement, Martin. I look forward to the
time when I can add links to other members' websites (all contributions
welcome) - Paul Sinclair told me of one idea he had for putting up a page
with parallel source and target texts of an "average" translation of a
standard contract - together with his own comments and criticisms. I've seen
that kind of thing for some German legal texts and I do find it a very neat
idea. Or Vit has a very nice page of quotations on translation - I'll have
to add a link to that when I get a bit of time...


Melvyn
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

David wrote:

>I suppose Acta Universitatis Carolinae, Translatologica Pragensia was your
>source in this case.

Acta Universitatis Carolinae
Philologica Monographia
It's a 240-page book.


>
>I was also able to derive some benefit from '9 x O PREKLADU' -  'K
>pragmaticke
>ekvivalenci v prekladech ceskych neliterarnich textu do anglictiny' The
>author is Patrick Corness and the article was published in ToP (the JTP
>quarterly) No. 42, September 1998, pp. 7 - 11.

Many thanks, David, for the valuable tip.



Another work that I find very useful is the two-volume "Studies in the
English Language" by
Libuse Duskova, with some very interesting translation examples contrasting
the perfect
tenses in English with the perfective aspect in Czech, the passive voice in
the two languages, "Man-Sätze"
(contrastive examples of "man-devices" such as 'one', 'you', reflexive
forms, third person
plural and the passive), a consideration of different translations of "jit
o" or how about these
elegant solutions to some awkward little problems:

Nezlob se, ale...
Sorry to contradict you but...

The bag holds seven pounds
Do toho pytle se vejde sedm liber

Heathrow sees a plane land or take off every fifty seconds
V Heathrow pristava nebo startuje letadlo kazdych padesat vterin

His voice held a note of entreaty
V jeho hlase byl naznak prosby (z jeho hlasu zaznivala prosba)

The letter bears your signature
Na tom dopise je vas podpis

This road carries a good deal of traffic
Na teto silnice je velky provoz

The heat turned the milk sour
Teplem mleko zkyslo

A bet on Fair Glory in the two-thirty won him twelve pounds
Sazkou na Fair Glory v zavode 14.30 vyhral dvanact liber


I also find some very enjoyable items in Casopis pro moderni filologii from
the Czech
Language Institute at the Academy of Sciences. I'd particularly recommend an
article from
issue no. 2 1993 - Prekladatelska problematika ceskych zdrobnelin v
anglictine.

Any other suggestions?

Melvyn


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> >Napriklad zde bych pouzil (we are
> >accepting your offer
>
> Should be "We accept...."


Michael, do you mean to say that "accept" is a non-progressive
(non-continuous) verb? In fact, it did occur to me. Or is it just the wrong
choice of tense?

Jirka

>Michael, do you mean to say that "accept" is a non-progressive
>(non-continuous) verb? In fact, it did occur to me. Or is it just the wrong
>choice of tense?

The latter. Aspect does exist in English on a lexical level, but it's
not at all strict, and since verbs don't come in
perfective/imperfective pairs or forms, it's nearly invisible.
But continuous tenses always refer to a specific moment in time
during which the activity of the verb is occurring. The auxiliary
verb determines whether that moment is in the past, present, or
future. If you want to refer to a general state of activity or being
(as in "we accept") without reference to a particular moment in time,
you need to use the simple present.

Michael

>" ... prijimame Vasi nabidku s tim, ze pote, co budou ucineny z Vasi
>strany prislusne kroky, bude faktura uhrazena ..." Jde o
>frekventovane - a pekne hnusne, IMHO - spojeni "s tim, ze". Pokazde,
>kdyz ho prekladam, lehce se orosim, nastvu a nakonec odchazim od
>pocitace s pocitem, ze preklad neni dobry. Mate nekdo nejake
>elegantni varianty???

Dik za nazory. Taky podobny paskvil prekladam pokazde jinak, coz asi nevadi.
V teto souvislosti mi prichazi na mysl never-ending prekladatelsky problem,
pretrasany vzdy a vsude - otazka vernosti originalu. Meli bychom z blbeho
originalu delat blby preklad? Mame z koliznich ceskych/anglickych vet vymyslet
obdobne kolizni anglicke/ceske? Mame pravo bez dovoleni redigovat original? (mam
ted na mysli hlavne obchodni korespondenci, v beletrii je asi jasneji).
Ve vetsine pripadu to delam, minimalne ze dvou duvodu: 1. Chci verit, ze autor
se chyb nedopustil zamerne (ze nejde o specificky, leta pilovany, nicmene   
neprijatelny styl), 2. Nechci sam vypadat jako kreten (asi jste kazdy zazil
neprijemny pocit pri tlumoceni, kdyz mate tlumocit neco neprijemneho,
nepravdiveho, agresivniho - casto si pak sam pripadam jako neprijemny agresivni
lhar ...).
Do extremu je tento problem vyhnany v pripade soudne overovanych prekladu, kde
se dusuji a tlucu razitkem na dukaz toho, ze 1=1.

Dobry den preje Martin, Hodonin

>Meli bychom z blbeho originalu delat blby preklad? Mame z koliznich
>ceskych/anglickych vet vymyslet obdobne kolizni anglicke/ceske? Mame
>pravo bez dovoleni redigovat original? (mam ted na mysli hlavne
>obchodni korespondenci, v beletrii je asi jasneji).

To zalezi na ulohu, kterou ma plnit prelozeny text. Preklad nikdy
neni pouze druhou jazykovou verzí originalu, ale existuje jako
samostatny text (ctenar nezna original a vetsinou se o nej jako
takovy ani nezajima). V nekterych pripadech plni verny odraz vsech
blbosti v originalu zamer prekladu, ale vetsinou ma preklad plnit
nejake komunikacni funkce, a tim lip, kdyz ty funkce plni lepe nez
spatny original.

Michael

> >Meli bychom z blbeho originalu delat blby preklad?

I go along with what Michael wrote.

Jirka Bolech