Hi, dear listmates!
How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in Czech "Zaklínání
železa" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse upon Iron" is OK? I would
highly appreciate especially opinions from native speakers of English.TIA.
Best regards,
Jarda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Aug 6, 2005, at 10:35 AM, Jarda wrote:

> How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in
> Czech "Zaklínání železa" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that
> "Curse upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially
> opinions from native speakers of English.TIA.

Is there any context or hint as to what the composer actually had in
mind? Why would someone curse iron? The element, or a specific batch
of iron, or...? Is this a magical curse, or just strong language, or...?

In any case, I would understand 'curse' as 'zakleti' rather than
'zaklinani' and consider using 'cursing' for the latter. Maybe
'Cursing Iron', although there it's ambiguous whether it's the iron
being cursed or doing the cursing. Or 'Cursing the Iron', although
that would be wrong if the intent is a universal curse on the metal.
Not that it makes much sense either way....

Michael

--
<http://globalocal.blogspot.com>


It's not cryptic, it's evocative.

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jarda" <jaroslav.hejzlar@t...> wrote:
> Hi, dear listmates!
> How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in
Czech "Zaklínání železa" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse
upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from
native speakers of English.TIA.


As far as I can make out on the search engines, "Curse upon Iron"
seems to be a pretty common translation of Veljo Tormis's Estonian
choral work, Raua needmine.  Articles are used occasionally but I
would not say they are necessary for a title in isolation. Looks OK to
me and I can't find any viable alternatives.

Sounds like a fun little number if you are into shamanistic
incantations, which I most definitely am. How does it go? Can you
dum-di-dum it for us?

M.

On Saturday, August 6, 2005, at 11:35  AM, Jarda wrote:

> How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in Czech
> "Zaklínání železa" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse upon
> Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from native
> speakers of English.TIA.

Why 2. pad for "iron".  Wouldn't it in that case be "The Curse of Iron"?

I could think of people on a chain gang or in a hot smelter who would
consider iron to be a continuous curse.

Please instruct me, guys.

Jamie

Informace o zmenach mezi verzemi 5.0 a 5.1

http://www.condak.net/news/50_51/cs/00.html

Od dubna 2005 poradam kazdy ctvrtek setkani prekladatelu
(venuji se jim, pokud se nedostavi zajemce o skoleni Wordfastu)

http://www.condak.net/nakopecku/cs/inzeratp.html

S pozdravem
Milan

Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti anglictiny, ale mel jsem
vzdycky dojem, ze "curse" je "prokleti", tedy prani, aby se tomu
prokletemu stalo neco zleho. "Zaklinani zeleza" bych spise chapal jako
prani, aby bylo zelezo nadano nejakou kouzelnou moci nebo aby neskodilo.
Jenom na okraj pozanmenavam, ze Fronek uvadi pro"zaklinat" celou radu
  vyrazu, ale "curse" mezi nimi neni.
Petr Adamek
--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@d...> wrote:
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jarda" <jaroslav.hejzlar@t...> wrote:

> > Hi, dear listmates!
> > How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in
> Czech "Zaklínání železa" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse
> upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from
> native speakers of English.TIA.
>
>
> As far as I can make out on the search engines, "Curse upon Iron"
> seems to be a pretty common translation of Veljo Tormis's Estonian
> choral work, Raua needmine.  Articles are used occasionally but I
> would not say they are necessary for a title in isolation. Looks OK to
> me and I can't find any viable alternatives.
>
> Sounds like a fun little number if you are into shamanistic
> incantations, which I most definitely am. How does it go? Can you
> dum-di-dum it for us?
>
> M.

Petr Adamek wrote:

> Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti
> anglictiny, ale mel jsem vzdycky dojem,
> ze "curse" je "prokleti", tedy prani, aby se tomu
> prokletemu stalo neco zleho. "Zaklinani zeleza" bych
> spise chapal jako prani, aby bylo zelezo nadano
> nejakou kouzelnou moci nebo aby neskodilo.
> Jenom na okraj pozanmenavam, ze Fronek uvadi pro"zaklinat"
> celou radu vyrazu, ale "curse" mezi nimi neni.

These are exactly the two reasons why I was asking. Nevertheless,
since it is really the most frequent translation of Veljo Tormis's Raua
needmine and since Melvyn says he finds it OK
and cannot find any other viable alternatives, I will use this,
although it seemed a bit suspicious to me at first.

Thanks to Michael, Jamie, Melvyn and Petr very much.
Best regards,

Jarda

On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 03:13  AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

> Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti anglictiny, ale mel jsem
> vzdycky dojem, ze "curse" je "prokleti", tedy prani, aby se tomu
> prokletemu stalo neco zleho. "Zaklinani zeleza" bych spise chapal jako
> prani, aby bylo zelezo nadano nejakou kouzelnou moci nebo aby
> neskodilo.
> Jenom na okraj pozanmenavam, ze Fronek uvadi pro"zaklinat" celou radu
> vyrazu, ale "curse" mezi nimi neni.

A look at Fronek shows you're right.  "Zaklinat", according to Fronek,
can involve activities that remove curses, rather than putting them on
someone.  One meaning is actually "exorcize", so that's quite the
opposite of putting a curse on someone.  Some meanings involve putting
the whammy on someone, and not exactly a curse, per se.  I think a more
apt translation of "zaklinat", then would be to put a hex on someone,
or a spell.  In fact, if you search "hex" at Thesaurus.com, you get
synonyms like those under the "zaklinat" entry in Fronek.

So, would a more accurate translation (regardless of what is most
common) be one of the following?

	 Casting a Spell on Iron
	 A Hex on Iron

A curse is always evil.  A hex or a spell doesn't have to be.

Jamie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,
This is funny. Today I know, that "dispose of" means "get rid of", but I
also remember that some 30 years ago at school they taught us that "to
dispose of" means "disponovat s necem" "mit neco".

I can prove this: My Langenscheits Schulwoerterbuch Englisch-Deutsch /
Deutsch-Englisch (ISBN 3-468-13121-6, printed in 1970) says on page 84:
Dispose of - verfügen über, erledigen, verwenden, veräussern, unterbringen,
beseitigen.

So only 2 German word show a tendency to "get rid of" the rest says that it
means "mit".

Has there been a change in the meaning of this word in recent years or has
it simply been wrongly converted into German?

Helga (quite confused)

-----Original Message-----
From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf


> we dispose of other products as well,

The translator doesn't know that "dispose of" does not mean "mít k
dispozici".  It means "odvézt" (as in garbage), to throw something
away.  It sounds like they are saying, "Vyhazime jeste dalsi vyrobky."



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I don't know if the meaning has changed, but neither my Webster's New
World Collegiate Dictionary nor my British Oxford Concise Dictionary
has "dispose of" meaning anything like "mit neco".  I have looked in
the New Century unabridged from 1959, and that agrees with the newer
dictionaries.  All of the meanings given involve getting rid of
something, whether by throwing it away, eating it, destroying it or by
some other means.

Jamie

On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 07:51  AM, Helga Listen wrote:

> Hi,
> This is funny. Today I know, that "dispose of" means "get rid of", but
> I
> also remember that some 30 years ago at school they taught us that "to
> dispose of" means "disponovat s necem" "mit neco".
>
> I can prove this: My Langenscheits Schulwoerterbuch Englisch-Deutsch /
> Deutsch-Englisch (ISBN 3-468-13121-6, printed in 1970) says on page 84:
> Dispose of - verfügen über, erledigen, verwenden, veräussern,
> unterbringen,
> beseitigen.
>
> So only 2 German word show a tendency to "get rid of" the rest says
> that it
> means "mit".
>
> Has there been a change in the meaning of this word in recent years or
> has
> it simply been wrongly converted into German?
>
> Helga (quite confused)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
>
>
>> we dispose of other products as well,
>
> The translator doesn't know that "dispose of" does not mean "mít k
> dispozici".  It means "odvézt" (as in garbage), to throw something
> away.  It sounds like they are saying, "Vyhazime jeste dalsi vyrobky."
>
>
>
> --
> Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei.
> Überprüft durch AVG Antivirensystem.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virendatenbank: 267.10.2/65 - Ausgabedatum: 7.8.2005
>
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Pridavam se k Helzinu "Hi, This is funny".
Vyhledal jsem si stary A-C slovnik Osicka-Poldauf, ktery pred vznikem
Haise-Hodka byl daleko nejlepsi a autoritativni A-C slovnik v nasich
krajich (pochazi z roku 1948, vydala ho Cs akademie ved). A hle:
"Dispose ... (of)pouz^i'ti neceho, vladnouti, disponovati necim, miti
k volnemu pouziti; prodati (zbozi); vyriditi, oddelati (cloveka); to
dispose of a daughter in marriage, provdati dceru.
Myslel bych si, ze Osicka-Poldauf byli dost silny tym na to, aby to
tehdy byla pravda.
Petr Adamek
--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
> I don't know if the meaning has changed, but neither my Webster's New
> World Collegiate Dictionary nor my British Oxford Concise Dictionary
> has "dispose of" meaning anything like "mit neco".  I have looked in
> the New Century unabridged from 1959, and that agrees with the newer
> dictionaries.  All of the meanings given involve getting rid of
> something, whether by throwing it away, eating it, destroying it or by
> some other means.
>
> Jamie
>
> On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 07:51  AM, Helga Listen wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > This is funny. Today I know, that "dispose of" means "get rid of",
but
> > I
> > also remember that some 30 years ago at school they taught us that "to
> > dispose of" means "disponovat s necem" "mit neco".
> >
> > I can prove this: My Langenscheits Schulwoerterbuch Englisch-Deutsch /
> > Deutsch-Englisch (ISBN 3-468-13121-6, printed in 1970) says on
page 84:
> > Dispose of - verfügen über, erledige
n, verwenden, veräussern,
> > unterbringen,
> > beseitigen.
> >
> > So only 2 German word show a tendency to "get rid of" the rest says
> > that it
> > means "mit".
> >
> > Has there been a change in the meaning of this word in recent
years or
> > has
> > it simply been wrongly converted into German?
> >
> > Helga (quite confused)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf
> >
> >
> >> we dispose of other products as well,
> >
> > The translator doesn't know that "dispose of" does not mean "mít k
> > dispozici".  It means "odvézt" (as in garbage), to throw something
> > away.  It sounds like they are saying, "Vyhazime jeste dalsi vyrobky."
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei.
> > Überprüft durch AVG Antivirensystem.
> > Version: 7.0.338 / Virendatenbank: 267.10.2/65 - Ausgabedatum:
7.8.2005
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Czechlist resources:
> > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

I think one should write to Langenscheid and tell them about their mistake
;-)

I just had a look into a much newer version - The New College German
Dictionary (ISBN 3-468-97020-x, Completely Revised Edition 1995) and on page
193 you find:



Dispose:

II. 4. dispose of: a) (frei) verfügen oder disponieren über (acc.), b)
entscheiden über, lenken, erledigen ....



It is clear that in both of my dictionaries the meaning in question is not
listed in the very first place, but it is there and I would not wonder if a
less trained or new translator would fall into this "trap". Especially if I
take into consideration, that not only German-English but probably also
Czech-English dictionaries tell you that this use of "dispose of" is ok.



Helga (getting more and more confused)





-----Original Message-----
From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of James Kirchner
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:34 PM
To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Czenglish?



I don't know if the meaning has changed, but neither my Webster's New
World Collegiate Dictionary nor my British Oxford Concise Dictionary
has "dispose of" meaning anything like "mit neco".  I have looked in
the New Century unabridged from 1959, and that agrees with the newer
dictionaries.  All of the meanings given involve getting rid of
something, whether by throwing it away, eating it, destroying it or by
some other means.

Jamie

On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 07:51  AM, Helga Listen wrote:

> Hi,
> This is funny. Today I know, that "dispose of" means "get rid of", but
> I
> also remember that some 30 years ago at school they taught us that "to
> dispose of" means "disponovat s necem" "mit neco".
>
> I can prove this: My Langenscheits Schulwoerterbuch Englisch-Deutsch /
> Deutsch-Englisch (ISBN 3-468-13121-6, printed in 1970) says on page 84:
> Dispose of - verfügen über, erledigen, verwenden, veräussern,
> unterbringen,
> beseitigen.
>
> So only 2 German word show a tendency to "get rid of" the rest says
> that it
> means "mit".
>
> Has there been a change in the meaning of this word in recent years or
> has
> it simply been wrongly converted into German?
>
> Helga (quite confused)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
>
>
>> we dispose of other products as well,
>
> The translator doesn't know that "dispose of" does not mean "mít k
> dispozici".  It means "odvézt" (as in garbage), to throw something
> away.  It sounds like they are saying, "Vyhazime jeste dalsi vyrobky."
>
>
>
> --
> Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei.
> Überprüft durch AVG Antivirensystem.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virendatenbank: 267.10.2/65 - Ausgabedatum: 7.8.2005
>
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> HYPERLINK
"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtrans
lation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Czechlist resources:
HYPERLINK
"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtrans
lation













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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And more confusing is that we "disponujeme s mnoha vecmi, moznostmi, atd."
:-)
Z.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Czenglish?


> I think one should write to Langenscheid and tell them about their mistake
> ;-)
>
> I just had a look into a much newer version - The New College German
> Dictionary (ISBN 3-468-97020-x, Completely Revised Edition 1995) and on
page
> 193 you find:
>
>
>
> Dispose:
>
> II. 4. dispose of: a) (frei) verfügen oder disponieren über (acc.), b)
> entscheiden über, lenken, erledigen ....
>
>
>
> It is clear that in both of my dictionaries the meaning in question is not
> listed in the very first place, but it is there and I would not wonder if
a
> less trained or new translator would fall into this "trap". Especially if
I
> take into consideration, that not only German-English but probably also
> Czech-English dictionaries tell you that this use of "dispose of" is ok.
>
>
>
> Helga (getting more and more confused)
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of James Kirchner
> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:34 PM
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Czenglish?
>
>
>
> I don't know if the meaning has changed, but neither my Webster's New
> World Collegiate Dictionary nor my British Oxford Concise Dictionary
> has "dispose of" meaning anything like "mit neco".  I have looked in
> the New Century unabridged from 1959, and that agrees with the newer
> dictionaries.  All of the meanings given involve getting rid of
> something, whether by throwing it away, eating it, destroying it or by
> some other means.
>
> Jamie
>
> On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 07:51  AM, Helga Listen wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > This is funny. Today I know, that "dispose of" means "get rid of", but
> > I
> > also remember that some 30 years ago at school they taught us that "to
> > dispose of" means "disponovat s necem" "mit neco".
> >
> > I can prove this: My Langenscheits Schulwoerterbuch Englisch-Deutsch /
> > Deutsch-Englisch (ISBN 3-468-13121-6, printed in 1970) says on page 84:
> > Dispose of - verfügen über, erledigen, verwenden, veräussern,
> > unterbringen,
> > beseitigen.
> >
> > So only 2 German word show a tendency to "get rid of" the rest says
> > that it
> > means "mit".
> >
> > Has there been a change in the meaning of this word in recent years or
> > has
> > it simply been wrongly converted into German?
> >
> > Helga (quite confused)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf
> >
> >
> >> we dispose of other products as well,
> >
> > The translator doesn't know that "dispose of" does not mean "mít k
> > dispozici".  It means "odvézt" (as in garbage), to throw something
> > away.  It sounds like they are saying, "Vyhazime jeste dalsi vyrobky."
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei.
> > Überprüft durch AVG Antivirensystem.
> > Version: 7.0.338 / Virendatenbank: 267.10.2/65 - Ausgabedatum: 7.8.2005
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Czechlist resources:
> > HYPERLINK
>
"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtrans
> lation
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> HYPERLINK
>
"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtrans
> lation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
> __________ Informace od NOD32 1.1173 (20050719) __________
>
> Tato zprava byla proverena antivirovym systemem NOD32.
> http://www.nod32.cz
>
>

The only way to resolve this would be to check the OED, which I don't
have here at hand, and I don't have the $295 for a one-year online
subscription (what is in their heads?!).  As soon as I can get a look,
I will.

I have checked my dad's 1948 Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, and that,
again, shows only definitions that mean to get rid of something, and
none that mean "mit neco".  This dictionary would also have reflected
British usage, if it differed, so at the time the Osicka-Poldauf
dictionary came out, this "mit neco" meaning was not reflected in real
English dictionaries.  Keep in mind that as late as the 1990s, Poldauf
contained bizarre translations such as "school servant" for "skolnik",
which, as far as I discerned, was used only in Singapore at that time.
Remember also that those old ENG-CZ dictionaries even included some
Shakespearean usage, which would have been centuries out of date.

And I would say that "to dispose of a daughter in marriage" is a very,
very cruel way to describe the matter.

Jamie

On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 08:50  AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

> Pridavam se k Helzinu "Hi, This is funny".
> Vyhledal jsem si stary A-C slovnik Osicka-Poldauf, ktery pred vznikem
> Haise-Hodka byl daleko nejlepsi a autoritativni A-C slovnik v nasich
> krajich (pochazi z roku 1948, vydala ho Cs akademie ved). A hle:
> "Dispose ... (of)pouz^i'ti neceho, vladnouti, disponovati necim, miti
> k volnemu pouziti; prodati (zbozi); vyriditi, oddelati (cloveka); to
> dispose of a daughter in marriage, provdati dceru.
> Myslel bych si, ze Osicka-Poldauf byli dost silny tym na to, aby to
> tehdy byla pravda.
> Petr Adamek
> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
> > I don't know if the meaning has changed, but neither my Webster's New
> > World Collegiate Dictionary nor my British Oxford Concise Dictionary
> > has "dispose of" meaning anything like "mit neco".  I have looked in
> > the New Century unabridged from 1959, and that agrees with the newer
> > dictionaries.  All of the meanings given involve getting rid of
> > something, whether by throwing it away, eating it, destroying it or
> by
> > some other means.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> > On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 07:51  AM, Helga Listen wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > This is funny. Today I know, that "dispose of" means "get rid of",
> but
> > > I
> > > also remember that some 30 years ago at school they taught us that
> "to
> > > dispose of" means "disponovat s necem" "mit neco".
> > >
> > > I can prove this: My Langenscheits Schulwoerterbuch
> Englisch-Deutsch /
> > > Deutsch-Englisch (ISBN 3-468-13121-6, printed in 1970) says on
> page 84:
> > > Dispose of - verfügen über, erledige
> n, verwenden, veräussern,
> > > unterbringen,
> > > beseitigen.
> > >
> > > So only 2 German word show a tendency to "get rid of" the rest says
> > > that it
> > > means "mit".
> > >
> > > Has there been a change in the meaning of this word in recent
> years or
> > > has
> > > it simply been wrongly converted into German?
> > >
> > > Helga (quite confused)
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]
> On
> > > Behalf
> > >
> > >
> > >> we dispose of other products as well,
> > >
> > > The translator doesn't know that "dispose of" does not mean "mít k
> > > dispozici".  It means "odvézt" (as in garbage), to throw something
> > > away.  It sounds like they are saying, "Vyhazime jeste dalsi
> vyrobky."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei.
> > > Überprüft durch AVG Antivirensystem.
> > > Version: 7.0.338 / Virendatenbank: 267.10.2/65 - Ausgabedatum:
> 7.8.2005
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Czechlist resources:
> > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

V nemcine aspon nemate to"dispo-" na zacatku slova...
Z
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Czenglish?


> I think one should write to Langenscheid and tell them about their mistake
> ;-)
>
> I just had a look into a much newer version - The New College German
> Dictionary (ISBN 3-468-97020-x, Completely Revised Edition 1995) and on
page
> 193 you find:
>
>
>
> Dispose:
>
> II. 4. dispose of: a) (frei) verfügen oder disponieren über (acc.), b)
> entscheiden über, lenken, erledigen ....
>
>
>
> It is clear that in both of my dictionaries the meaning in question is not
> listed in the very first place, but it is there and I would not wonder if
a
> less trained or new translator would fall into this "trap". Especially if
I
> take into consideration, that not only German-English but probably also
> Czech-English dictionaries tell you that this use of "dispose of" is ok.
>
>
>
> Helga (getting more and more confused)
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of James Kirchner
> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:34 PM
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Czenglish?
>
>
>
> I don't know if the meaning has changed, but neither my Webster's New
> World Collegiate Dictionary nor my British Oxford Concise Dictionary
> has "dispose of" meaning anything like "mit neco".  I have looked in
> the New Century unabridged from 1959, and that agrees with the newer
> dictionaries.  All of the meanings given involve getting rid of
> something, whether by throwing it away, eating it, destroying it or by
> some other means.
>
> Jamie
>
> On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 07:51  AM, Helga Listen wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > This is funny. Today I know, that "dispose of" means "get rid of", but
> > I
> > also remember that some 30 years ago at school they taught us that "to
> > dispose of" means "disponovat s necem" "mit neco".
> >
> > I can prove this: My Langenscheits Schulwoerterbuch Englisch-Deutsch /
> > Deutsch-Englisch (ISBN 3-468-13121-6, printed in 1970) says on page 84:
> > Dispose of - verfügen über, erledigen, verwenden, veräussern,
> > unterbringen,
> > beseitigen.
> >
> > So only 2 German word show a tendency to "get rid of" the rest says
> > that it
> > means "mit".
> >
> > Has there been a change in the meaning of this word in recent years or
> > has
> > it simply been wrongly converted into German?
> >
> > Helga (quite confused)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf
> >
> >
> >> we dispose of other products as well,
> >
> > The translator doesn't know that "dispose of" does not mean "mít k
> > dispozici".  It means "odvézt" (as in garbage), to throw something
> > away.  It sounds like they are saying, "Vyhazime jeste dalsi vyrobky."
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei.
> > Überprüft durch AVG Antivirensystem.
> > Version: 7.0.338 / Virendatenbank: 267.10.2/65 - Ausgabedatum: 7.8.2005
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Czechlist resources:
> > HYPERLINK
>
"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtrans
> lation
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> HYPERLINK
>
"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation"http://www.bohemica.com/czechtrans
> lation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>    _____
>
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>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Omyl - wir disponieren mit vielen Dingen ! Coz neni nic jineho nez, ze
disponujeme hodne vecmi.

H.



-----Original Message-----
From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Zuzana Kočičková

V nemcine aspon nemate to"dispo-" na zacatku slova...
Z


--
Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei.
Überprüft durch AVG Antivirensystem.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virendatenbank: 267.10.2/65 - Ausgabedatum: 7.8.2005

On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 08:58  AM, Helga Listen wrote:

> It is clear that in both of my dictionaries the meaning in question is
> not
> listed in the very first place, but it is there and I would not wonder
> if a
> less trained or new translator would fall into this "trap". Especially
> if I
> take into consideration, that not only German-English but probably also
> Czech-English dictionaries tell you that this use of "dispose of" is
> ok.

Funny.  My Oxford-Duden also shows this "verfügen" meaning, but my real
Oxford doesn't.  And even my Fronek dictionary has that as the last
definition.

I suppose this would be a real trap, very easy to fall into.

Here is the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (2000)
definition:

> Phrasal Verb:
> dispose of
> To attend to; settle: disposed of the problem quickly.
> To transfer or part with, as by giving or selling.
> To get rid of; throw out.
> To kill or destroy: a despot who disposed of all his enemies, real or
> imagined.

Here is what the American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms (1992) says,
and it includes the probable dates when the usages became current:

> dispose of
>
> Attend to, settle, deal with, as in He quickly disposed of the problem
> .[Early 1600s]
>
> Transfer, part with, as by giving away or selling.  For example, They
> wanted to dispose of the land as soon as possible .[Second half of
> 1600s]
>
> Get rid of, throw out, as in Can we dispose of the trash in this
> barrel? Oliver Goldsmith had this idiom in She Stoops to Conquer
> (1773):  "I'm disposing of the husband before I have secured the
> lover." [Mid-1600s]
>
> Kill or destroy; also, humorously, consume.  For example, The king was
> determined to dispose of his enemies , or John disposed of the cake in
> no time .[Second half of 1800s]

The 1996 Merriam Webster Dictionary of Law has this:

> Main Entry: disˇpose of
> Function: transitive verb
> Inflected Forms: disˇposed of ;disˇposˇing of
> 1:to transfer to the control or ownership of another < disposed of the
> property by will>
> 2:to deal with conclusively :determine finally <received petitions for
> injunctions…The common theme in disposing of these —W. J. Brennan,
> Junior>

The funny thing is that even the etymologies -- going from Middle
English all the way back to Old French -- do not reflect the "mit neco"
meaning at all, and they indicate the "to arrange" meaning more than
anything else.

It's possible that some non-native English-speaking lexicographer way
back when got false cognates confused and the error has stuck.

Jamie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But don't forget that the collocation 'to have at one's disposal' is
still current today (if a little stiff), with the meaning Helga cited.

Michael


On Aug 7, 2005, at 8:13 AM, James Kirchner wrote:

> I have checked my dad's 1948 Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, and
> that,
> again, shows only definitions that mean to get rid of something, and
> none that mean "mit neco".  This dictionary would also have reflected
> British usage, if it differed, so at the time the Osicka-Poldauf
> dictionary came out, this "mit neco" meaning was not reflected in real
> English dictionaries.
>

--
<http://globalocal.blogspot.com/>

In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
In the midst of his laughter and glee,
He had softly and suddenly vanished away---
For the Snark *was* a Boojum, you see.

- Lewis Carroll

I think I've seen this in some legal documents meaning "nakladat s necim".
Would that also be Czenglish?
Hanka

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gmail" <mgrant@...>
To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Czenglish?


> But don't forget that the collocation 'to have at one's disposal' is
> still current today (if a little stiff), with the meaning Helga cited.
>
> Michael
>
>
> On Aug 7, 2005, at 8:13 AM, James Kirchner wrote:
>
>> I have checked my dad's 1948 Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, and
>> that,
>> again, shows only definitions that mean to get rid of something, and
>> none that mean "mit neco".  This dictionary would also have reflected
>> British usage, if it differed, so at the time the Osicka-Poldauf
>> dictionary came out, this "mit neco" meaning was not reflected in real
>> English dictionaries.
>>
>
> --
> <http://globalocal.blogspot.com/>
>
> In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
> In the midst of his laughter and glee,
> He had softly and suddenly vanished away---
> For the Snark *was* a Boojum, you see.
>
> - Lewis Carroll
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 11:21  AM, Michael Gmail wrote:

> But don't forget that the collocation 'to have at one's disposal'
> is still current today (if a little stiff), with the meaning Helga
> cited.

You're right, but it wouldn't have been appropriate in the Czenglish
context Helga originally gave us.

Jamie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Aug 7, 2005, at 2:50 PM, Hana Viansová wrote:

> I think I've seen this in some legal documents meaning "nakladat s
> necim".
> Would that also be Czenglish?
>

I don't think so, but I'd have to see the whole sentence.
Michael


> Hanka
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Gmail" <mgrant@...>
> To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Czenglish?
>
>
>
>> But don't forget that the collocation 'to have at one's disposal' is
>> still current today (if a little stiff), with the meaning Helga
>> cited.
>

--
<http://globalocal.blogspot.com>

"One person’s ship is another person’s breakfast."
- Steve Pavlina

> On Aug 7, 2005, at 2:50 PM, Hana Viansová wrote:
> I think I've seen this in some legal documents meaning "nakladat s
> necim".
> Would that also be Czenglish?
>

Michael G. wrote:
>I don't think so, but I'd have to see the whole sentence.

I'd say that's normally fine.

Actually, I'd hazard a guess that the confusion arising over 'dispose
of' originally stems from its 'settle, deal with' meaning (e.g. see
Webster's). If I am to dispose of my property as I think fit then
surely one of my options is in fact to keep my property.

BR

Melvyn
Part of the secret of success in life is to eat what you like and let
the food fight it out inside.
- Mark Twain

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:

> So, would a more accurate translation (regardless of what is most
> common) be one of the following?
>
>  Casting a Spell on Iron
>  A Hex on Iron

OK, if we bracket off Jarda's original problem, I'd be willing to
believe (subject to confirmation by a native CZ speaker) that these
might well carry the magical, story-bookish feel of 'zaklinani' better
than 'curse'.

:-) However, I have found that the text of Raua needmine (Curse Upon
Iron) is based on Runo IX of the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala,
translated into Estonian.

www3.sympatico.ca/alan.teder/GuildGMCD7246.htm

Runo VIII Väinämöinen, on his journey, finds the daughter of Louhi
sitting on a rainbow weaving, and makes love to her. In trying to
accomplish the tasks she sets him, he wounds himself severely, and
drives away till he finds an old man who promises to stanch the blood.

Runo IX The old man heals Väinämöinen by relating the origin of Iron,
and by salving his wounds.

http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/kalevala.htm


In Runo IX of the Kalevala we read:

Curses on thee, cruel iron,
Curses on the steel thou givest,
Curses on thee, tongue of evil,
Cursed be thy life forever!

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune09.htm

Great stuff. Now you know what to buy me for my birthday.

Melvyn
Nothing is as irritating as the fellow who chats pleasantly while he's
overcharging you.
- Kin Hubbard

Ahoj,
prave jsem se vratil z nadherné dovolené z Cornwalu a prokousavam se tady
asi milionem zprav.
Kolik se vás minulý týden seslo?
Co se týče dodržování pitného režimu zítra, kdyby se to někomu hodilo, dejte
mi vědět.
Jarda


> Message: 7
>   Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:23:01 +0200
>   From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
> Subject: RE: Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!!
>
> V tom pripade budeme muset dodrzovat pitny rezim i pristi tyden!
>
>
>
> Pokud to rekl, jsem to asi nevnimala – nebo zapomela (v mem veku se to
> bohuzel stava!).
>
>
> Kazdopadne mame rezervaci na zitra 18:30 – uvidime kdo bude mit cas a
> naladu.
>
> Helga
>

Ja bysem mohla
Pitny rezim je treba dodrzovat!!!
sarka


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]On
> Behalf Of Jaroslav Suchánek
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 2:03 PM
> To: Czechlist
> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!! (tedy uz bylo)
>
>
> Ahoj,
> prave jsem se vratil z nadherné dovolené z Cornwalu a prokousavam se tady
> asi milionem zprav.
> Kolik se vás minulý týden seslo?
> Co se týče dodržování pitného režimu zítra, kdyby se to někomu
> hodilo, dejte
> mi vědět.
> Jarda
>
>
> > Message: 7
> >   Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:23:01 +0200
> >   From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
> > Subject: RE: Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!!
> >
> > V tom pripade budeme muset dodrzovat pitny rezim i pristi tyden!
> >
> >
> >
> > Pokud to rekl, jsem to asi nevnimala ? nebo zapomela (v mem veku se to
> > bohuzel stava!).
> >
> >
> > Kazdopadne mame rezervaci na zitra 18:30 ? uvidime kdo bude mit cas a
> > naladu.
> >
> > Helga
> >
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ja jeste nevim.
Mimochodem, kdo ma porad chodit tak casto
vymesovat pri dodrzovani pitneho rezimu!
Jirka

-----Original Message-----
From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
ing.Šárka Rubková
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 2:13 PM
To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!!
(tedy uz bylo)

Ja bysem mohla
Pitny rezim je treba dodrzovat!!!
sarka


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]On
> Behalf Of Jaroslav Suchánek
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 2:03 PM
> To: Czechlist
> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!!
(tedy uz bylo)
>
>
> Ahoj,
> prave jsem se vratil z nadherné dovolené z
Cornwalu a prokousavam se tady
> asi milionem zprav.
> Kolik se vás minulý týden seslo?
> Co se týče dodržování pitného režimu zítra,
kdyby se to někomu
> hodilo, dejte
> mi vědět.
> Jarda
>
>
> > Message: 7
> >   Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:23:01 +0200
> >   From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
> > Subject: RE: Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!!
> >
> > V tom pripade budeme muset dodrzovat pitny
rezim i pristi tyden!
> >
> >
> >
> > Pokud to rekl, jsem to asi nevnimala ? nebo
zapomela (v mem veku se to
> > bohuzel stava!).
> >
> >
> > Kazdopadne mame rezervaci na zitra 18:30 ?
uvidime kdo bude mit cas a
> > naladu.
> >
> > Helga
> >
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Czechlist resources:
http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation









Yahoo! Groups Links


     Czechlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Ja snad take!

H.

-----Original Message-----
From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ing.Šárka Rubková
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 2:13 PM
To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!! (tedy uz bylo)

Ja bysem mohla
Pitny rezim je treba dodrzovat!!!
sarka


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]On
> Behalf Of Jaroslav Suchánek
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 2:03 PM
> To: Czechlist
> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!! (tedy uz bylo)
>
>
> Ahoj,
> prave jsem se vratil z nadherné dovolené z Cornwalu a prokousavam se tady
> asi milionem zprav.
> Kolik se vás minulý týden seslo?
> Co se týče dodržování pitného režimu zítra, kdyby se to někomu
> hodilo, dejte
> mi vědět.
> Jarda
>
>
> > Message: 7
> >   Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:23:01 +0200
> >   From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
> > Subject: RE: Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!!
> >
> > V tom pripade budeme muset dodrzovat pitny rezim i pristi tyden!
> >
> >
> >
> > Pokud to rekl, jsem to asi nevnimala ? nebo zapomela (v mem veku se to
> > bohuzel stava!).
> >
> >
> > Kazdopadne mame rezervaci na zitra 18:30 ? uvidime kdo bude mit cas a
> > naladu.
> >
> > Helga
> >
>
>
>
> Czechlist resources:
> http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Czechlist resources:
http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation









Yahoo! Groups Links







--
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Überprüft durch AVG Antivirensystem.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virendatenbank: 267.10.2/65 - Ausgabedatum: 7.8.2005

Zdravim vsechny a diky za pripominku o dodrzovani pitneho rezimu:) Do
Prahy to teda nezvladnu, ale budu dodrzovat s vami...to co mi lezi na
stole k revizi vyzaduje aspon nekolik poradnych sklenic...neceho hodne
silneho! :)

--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Helga Listen" <listen@p...> wrote:
> Ja snad take!
>
> H.
>
>>
> Ja bysem mohla
> Pitny rezim je treba dodrzovat!!!
> sarka
>
>
>

OK, budu se tesit, mam nejake zarizovani po meste a tak spojim prijemne s
uzitecnym.
Jarda


> Message: 16
>   Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:19:57 +0200
>   From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
> Subject: RE: Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!! (tedy uz bylo)
>
> Ja snad take!
>
> H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
> Of ing.Šárka Rubková
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 2:13 PM
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: ZITRA je 1. utery!!! (tedy uz bylo)
>
> Ja bysem mohla
> Pitny rezim je treba dodrzovat!!!
> sarka
>

Taky se budu snazit prijit.

K.