I'm feeling very insecure right now, and a little sad.  I thought I found a place where my shower singing and doodles were accepted.  Now after reading all this, well lets just say I know where my place is now.  I just keep behind the counter and continue to server you drinks and not say a damn word.  I didn't mean to bother you "POETS"  with my dribble. Thanks, your illerterate counter girl at the cobalt.

Spacey Normally

---

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any poets out there
(this is a survey)

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From: cait collins [mailto:MS_allthat@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 1:00 PM
To: CobaltPoets@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CobaltPoets] please sing


any poets out there
(this is a survey)

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-  > We're looking for prize donations for our 6th annual summer Poetry
	 contest.  If you'd like to donate, books, subscriptions, services,
	 or anything of specific interested to Poets and Writers in exchange
	 for promotional mention in our classified section and in all
	 contest correspondence for the duration of the contest, please
	 send a query for more information to sponsors@...
	 or click on "SPONSOR THIS -> 2003 CONTEST" from the main PSH menu.

-  > Recently engaged to be married.  In fact, yesterday.


______________________________________________________
THE POETRY SUPER HIGHWAY WEEKLY VIRTUAL UPDATE
http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/
ISSN: 1523-6587

	 June 2 - 8, 2003

	 this week:

	 ~ This week featuring poets from VENICE and HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA

	 ~ 7 new poetry and writing related links added this week.

	 ~ LEARNING TO SPEAK by VICTOR INFANTE featured this week in the
	   PSH Bookstore.

	 ~ Poetry / Writing related Classified Ads.


___________________________________________________
POETS OF THE WEEK

	 ~ This week's featured poets are LISA HAVILAND and KELLY FREMON:

	 LISA HAVILAND (Venice, California) recently obtained a Master's in
	 Professional Writing from the University of Southern California.
	 She is currently working on her first full-length play, "Clocks", a
	 World War II-era waltz set in New Orleans.  Her first play, Mary
	 "Contrary", was a finalist in Theatre Three Productions' Sixth Annual
	 Festival of One-Acts on Long Island.

	 KELLY FREMON (Hollywood, California) will probably never date a guy
	 who wears velcro sandals and definitely not if they're worn together
	 with socks.  She likes turkey, talking in accents, and once
	 allegedly ate dinner with John Cusack, or possibly they we're just
	 at the same restaurant, she tends to lie about things like that.
	 On most days you will find her in her Hollywood apartment writing
	 screenplays and concocting unique meals out of the four unexpired
	 items in her refrigerator.


	 Click on "FEATURED POETS" from the main PSH menu to read their work.


___________________________________________________
NEW POETRY SUPER HIGHWAY LINKS

	 ~ Here are all of the new sites added to the Poetry Super Highway's
	   links sections.

	 You can find the actual links on the PSH website in the 3 poetry
	 links categories.


	 NEW ONLINE POETRY RESOURCES LISTINGS THIS WEEK:

	 ~ VOICES ISRAEL GROUP OF POETS IN ENGLISH
	 Voices Israel Group of Poets in English A non-profit organization
	 for the promotion and encouragement of poetry written in the
	 English language in Israel and abroad. Seeking to share the power
	 of poetic language with people everywhere. "When life touches us
	 poems appear like bruises".Roger White We publish an annual Voices
	 Anthology of Poetry submissions welcome from poets worldwide. See
	 our Web Site for details. Members also receive a monthly Newsletter
	 with Poetry and News.


	 NEW INDIVIDUAL POETS PAGES LISTINGS THIS WEEK:

	 ~ CUSP OF A GIRL
	 This site is a collection of my writing and blunt ramblings.

	 ~ CINDY HOLLEMAN - WRITINGS
	 Poetry and Writings of Cindy Holleman, a North Carolina writer
	 and author of the poetry collection, Depot Town Rhyme: Poems with
	 the Fun Tradition of Rhyme.

	 ~ BELLADRAGON MEDIA AND DESIGN
	 Poetry and other writings by Kevin M. Keith (author of ALL THE
	 GHOSTS IN MY HOUSE THINK I'M STRANGE) and graphic designs by
	 Jenifer Keith.

	 ~ MAN AND SUPERMAN
	 Collection of poems by Norfolk poet Cameron Self

	 ~ NOISE FROM THE UNDERGROUND
	 Within these walls I speak, truth shall not be silence.
	 Prophetically envisioned, self reliance, self determination.
	 Articles, Short Stories, Reviews.

	 ~ POEMS FROM RESTLESS HEARTS
	 Szing - POems from Restless Hearts - chronicles life experience in
	 poetry.  The poems are characterized by experimentation with form,
	 poetry journaling, and poem dialogues with fellow poets.


___________________________________________________
POETRY SUPER HIGHWAY BOOKSTORE

	 Featured this week in the PSH Bookstore: LEARNING TO SPEAK by
	 VICTOR INFANTE

	 LEARNING TO SPEAK is the work of a Southern California poet who
	 risks. He writes about tenderness, reveals a certain vulnerability,
	 isn't obscure for obscurity's sake. He lets his tears show. And
	 longing...so much longing, throughout these poems. A book that
	 belongs on your shelf beside Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Joseph
	 Brodsky.


	 You can learn more about or order this selection (or virtually any
	 other existing book, video or audio recording) by clicking on
	 BOOKSTORE from the Poetry Super Highway's main page.


	 ~ If you are or were a featured poet of the week on the Poetry Super
	 Highway AND you have a book available through Amazon.com, please
	 let me know so we can feature your work in the Poetry Super Highway
	 Bookstore in a new section just for former featured poet's books.
	 Write mailto:books@... with your name and the
	 title of the book.


___________________________________________________
AND SO ON . . .

	 ~ The Poetry Super Highway was accessed 684 times since last week.


______________________________________________________
POETRY CLASSIFIEDS

	 ~ For information on placing Poetry Related classifieds ads on the
	 Poetry Super Highway web page and weekly e-mail outburst,
	 mailto:classifieds@...

	 -~-~-~-~-~-~-

	 CHARLES SIMIC TO CO-JUDGE THE DAVOREN HANNA POETRY COMPETITION 2003

	 Now in its third year, the Davoren Hanna International Poetry
	 Competition is one of the most valuable in Ireland, the UK and the
	 United States and offers a first prize of EUR6500 and second and
	 third prizes of EUR2500 and EUR1250 respectively. This year's
	 entries will be judged by Charles Simic and Matthew Sweeney. The
	 competition is sponsored by Eason Bookshops, The Muse Cafes and the
	 Dubliner Magazine which will publish the winning poems. The closing
	 date is 31st May 2003 and entry forms plus rules and guidelines are
	 available for printing on http://www.eason.ie , or by sending a
	 SAE to: Poetry Competition, The Muse Cafe, Eason Bookshop,
	 O'Connell St., Dublin 1, Ireland.

	 2002 winners: 1st Kim Addonizio (US); 2nd James McGonigle (Scot);
	 3rd Jeff Walt (US)

	 -~-~-~-~-~-~-

	 blue sushi press seeks poetry manuscripts for chapbook publication.
	 unique handcolored poetry/art books. please contact the publisher
	 for further guidelines:  Donna@...

	 -~-~-~-~-~-~-

	 Publish your book from your computer!  As little as $1.00 a copy!
	 http://www.instantpublisher.com/default.asp?afcc=1172

	 Instant Publisher offers the ability for you to print
	 professional quality, perfect bound, with glossy full color cover
	 books, which you lay out yourself directly from your computer.

	 Your book can be any number of pages with any design you want in
	 black and white or full color for the front and back covers.

	 You simply download the Instant Publisher software to your computer,
	 lay out your book using any program you want (Publisher, Microsoft
	 Word, Quark XPress, Adobe Indesign, etc...) and then when you're
	 ready, you print over the internet to the Instant Publisher servers.

	 In less than 2 weeks, you'll get your books in the mail!

	 You can order as few as 25 books if you want.  They can also provide
	 ISBN and Barcodes for your book if you want, and full color cover
	 design if you need it.

	 This is the cheapest way to get bookstore quality books of your
	 poetry or any other work in almost any quantity.

	 Visit http://www.instantpublisher.com/default.asp?afcc=1172 for
	 more info!

	 -~-~-~-~-~-~-

	 PUT YOUR POEMS ON T-SHIRTS!

	 (or your pictures, images, website logos, poetry on t-shirts,
	 sweatshirts, coffee mugs, and mouse pads, hats, picture frames,
	 lunch boxes, stickers, postcards, calendars, frisbees, and more!)

	 Set up your store for free and earn commission from every sale or
	 order merchandise for yourself or for gifts.

	 visit:
	 http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/storeref.aspx?refbyckpoet
	 for the details.

	 -~-~-~-~-~-~-

	 Call For Submissions: The Circle Magazine is accepting submissions
	 for both the print and online versions. Pays in copies of the
	 quarterly print zine. Currently, we are seeking short stories,
	 features and poetry...any topic, any style. Also accepting artwork
	 and photographs. We are also seeking columnists for the web edition
	 on a variety of subjects. We are a literary magazine and respect
	 those working to advance ideas through language, preferably without
	 the gratuitous use of obscene language or content. Press run is
	 usually between 2,000-5,000+ copies, depending on ad revenue.

	 E your submissions to circlemag@... or put a stamp on it to:
	 The Circle Magazine, 173 Grandview Road, Wernersville, PA 19565.
	 More info can be obtained at our site:
	 http://www.circlemagazine.com/

	 Copies of The Circle can be ordered at the same address...$4.00.

	 Direct your poetry submissions to: Michael Clipman, Poetry Editor

	 All other submissions to: Penny Talbert, Editor

	 -~-~-~-~-~-~-

	 Poetry Super Highway announces poetry chapbook publishing special
	 by Passage Publishing.

	 POETRY CHAPBOOKS
	 $249.95  - Books up to 80 pages - complete formatting, standard
	 cover using your photo or artwork, saddle-stitched binding, ISBN
	 $25.00 additional book orders in lots of 25 - average $4.50 per
	 book including S & H

	 EXPANDED POETRY BOOKS, NOVELS, CHILDREN'S BOOKS
	 $399.95-$499.95 (Price dependant on page count - interior pictures,
	 etc.) - Books over 80 pages - includes complete formatting,
	 standard cover (your photos or artwork), ISBN, price barcode,
	 perfect binding, 3 books. Books ordered in lots of 25 - average
	 $6.00 per book including S & H.  The larger quantity ordered - the
	 lower the per book cost

	 ADDITIONAL SERVICES AVAILABLE
	 Editing and proofing - $100.00 per 75 pages
	 Hard Copy - If you send a hard copy, not on floppy or by email
	 attachment, the charge is $100.00 per 75 pages to input the data.
	 Cover design - professional photograph or artwork front and back
	 cover - $100.00
	 Press release kits - $75.00
	 Marketing - We are now submitting our books to the marketing
	 departments of B&N, Hastings, Borders and many other large
	 bookstore chains.

	 Contact: passage@... for more details.

	 -~-~-~-~-~-~-

	 Getunderground.com is a noncommercial underground culture and arts
	 community featuring new articles, art, music and reviews, plus
	 poetry and spoken word galleries on a consistent biweekly basis.
	 Submissions welcome. Our new HotSpots section is a continuously
	 updated database of performance poetry venues in the U.S.A. Please
	 visit http://www.getunderground.com/

	 -~-~-~-~-~-~-

	 STOLEN MUMMIES, Rick Lupert's 9th AND most recent book.  Poetry
	 written in London, England with Compact Disc Recording of sounds,
	 commentary and observations recorded live, on the fly in the UK.
	 Check it out: http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/sm.html
--

Lupert: It's The Website - & - Poetry Super Highway
            http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/

ART IN MOTION:
THE UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA SCHOOL OF FINE ARTS’ INTERNATIONAL
FESTIVAL OF TIME-BASED MEDIA

AIM ON SUNSET
Presented in partnership by the USC School of Fine Arts and the City of West
Hollywood’s Art on the Outside Program

June 1 – November 30, 2003

In a screening curated by AIM director Lynzie Baldwin and AIM co-founder Janet
Owen, selections from the AIM film, video, and animation archives are being
displayed on three jumbotron screens on the Sunset Strip in West Hollywood,
California, June 1 – November 30, 2003.

Works will be screened on the two jumbotron billboards on the front of the Key
Club for ten consecutive minutes at the top of every hour, and in six one-minute
blocks each hour on the screen at 8410 Sunset Blvd.  AIM works will be shown on
these three screens during every hour of billboard operation, seven days a week,
for the duration of the AIM on Sunset screenings.  For further details please
visit the AIM website at: www.usc.edu/aim

AIM on Sunset Locations & Selected Works:

8410 Sunset Boulevard
West Hollywood, CA

Verbatim by Annetta Kapon will be playing on the board at 8410 Sunset Blvd. for
the duration of the AIM on Sunset programming . Composed entirely of quotations
from rejection letters received by the artist Verbatim includes such phrases as
“We regret to tell you that despite the strength of your materials, we did not
decide to pursue your candidacy beyond this point,” and “We had outstanding
applicants, you among them, but we are forced to draw the line somewhere.”  In
this location – the epicenter of a notoriously competitive industry in which
success is everything but rejection is the experience of most – these texts
share that experience in a spirit of celebration and generosity.

----  ----  ----  ----  ----

The Key Club
9039 Sunset Boulevard
West Hollywood, CA

Unfurling, Martha Gorzycki
Noize, Johnny Karaguez
Flicker, Brian Karl & Tirtza Even
Vis a Vis, Dennis H. Miller
ROY-G-BIV II, Gregory Scranton

Unfurling, by Martha Gorzycki: This QuickTime movie is a silent reconfiguration
of the US flag in which flowing images of cars, corporate logos and wind farm
windmills make up the stars and stripes. Unfurling conflates visual symbols of
consumerism and the energy sources it demands with the national symbol of the
world’s largest energy consumer to create an ‘electronic haiku’ that comments on
both the impact of consumerism on American values and the destructive global
influence of wasteful consumption.

Noize, by Johnny Karaguez: By connecting a camera to a PCU and recording the
computer screen, Karaguez has, as it were, stepped aside, and bestowed ‘primary
auteur’ status onto the machines and their aesthetic. He has effectively stepped
aside and enabled them to generate a moving image of pre-recorded static and
video feedback that looks somewhat like an elegantly mushrooming, and
increasingly baroque, animated tree.

Flicker, by Brian Karl and Tirtza Even: In this digital video the small gesture
of a very elderly woman resting her head on her hand is elongated and repeated
through use of a time-delayed editing technique. This poignant vision of age and
frailty stutters and flickers -making the content deliberately hard to see - and
consequently fabricates an experience of palsied physical deterioration for the
viewer.

Vis-à-vis, by Dennis H. Miller: The technique of ‘convolution’ synthesizes two
elements in order to create a new, third, element, and continued application of
this technique results in the generation of increasingly complex [‘convoluted’]
scenarios. In Vis-à-vis Miller implements convolution as the formal governing
principle for the computer generation of sounds and images. The result is both a
stunningly beautiful visualization of the operation of formal principles and an
increasingly complex ‘narrative’ of the interrelationship of experience, mind
and memory.

ROY-G-BIV II, by Gregory J. Scranton: Scranton has digitized and radically
simplified found home-movie footage and then cycled the resulting images through
the colors of the spectrum [the eponymous ‘r,o,y,g,b,i,v’]. While at first it
may appear that this work depicts abstract luminous pixels moving against a dark
ground the pictograms quickly translate into running, swinging and playing
figures. The result is both an evocation of intangible wisps of memory and an
algorhythmic investigation of the ways in which we, as visual consumers,
navigate our way through mediated images and experiences.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
----------------------------

If you would like to continue receiving our bulletins then please, do nothing,
and your email address will be automatically included in our list. If you would
rather not receive AIM announcements please send an email with REMOVE in the
subject field to: aim@....

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray [mailto:lanthier@...]
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 5:29 AM
To: CobaltPoets@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [CobaltPoets] Guess I should get a degree in poetry

Ryan, I don’t why it’s so tough to ‘get’ it. Expecting education, does not in any way imply in any valid logic that you need to get a degree.

I tire of having to explain that education today does not mean what it once meant. Education was geared toward ‘civilizing’ an individual to a heightened sensibility and fluency with cultures of all types. Education can be simply a matter of reading (the right books of course) , hearing good works, and discussing. The American myopia is to regard the plea for education as a “Euro-centric” bias. Politics and moral indignation have replaced artistic sensibility. I agree that anti-intellectualism is ‘crap’, unfortunately it is exactly this crap that informs the pop culture; it has, since the sixties, degenerated into an aesthetic sense that considers Beauty to be pussy hallmark. Wow impressive.

MFA’s are a dime a dozen. I’ve dropped out of one UCLA extension taught by someone with her MFA. Positive proof that education today has very little to do with artistic excellence.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Oba [mailto:ryanoba@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:16 AM
To: CobaltPoets@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [CobaltPoets] Guess I should get a degree in poetry

 

Hey Spacey,

 

I was just going through the poetry section of Vroman's out here and seeing how many of my favorite poets actually have master of fine arts degrees in poetry.  Not many, actually.  I guess you can't teach genius. :)

 

Before anyone cames after me with the anti-inteeeelectual crap, I went to Cornell and got one of those MFAs, and I am an English prof. I TEACH poetics, okay?

 

But a great poem can come from anywhere, in any style, and that's one thing I like about poetry. 

 

Hey Spacey, showers have heard some of the best music in all creation, and lots of folks thought Leonardo was just doodling in his notebook, as well.  And as for dribble, you should see what can come out of some of these ivory tower English depts.

 

Please keep writing and speaking and singing!

 

Ryan

 

 

 

[Ryan Oba]  -----Original Message-----
From: Spacey Normally [mailto:stacynunnelly@...]
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 1:16 PM
To: cobaltpoets@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CobaltPoets] Guess I should get a degree in poetry

I'm feeling very insecure right now, and a little sad.  I thought I found a place where my shower singing and doodles were accepted.  Now after reading all this, well lets just say I know where my place is now.  I just keep behind the counter and continue to server you drinks and not say a damn word.  I didn't mean to bother you "POETS"  with my dribble. Thanks, your illerterate counter girl at the cobalt.

 

Spacey Normally

---

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Ray:
While wading through all these email pages I haven't yet read one come-back
that has stood up against you that has made any sense.  Seems like they all
have an unchangeable preconceived idea about anyone, who opposes the kind
of Poetry World they've been cradled in for so long, as being some ugly
bogeyman.  So they have to interpret your words to sound like this
imaginary bogeyman so they can form you into a Voodoo Doll they can stick
pins into it.  Well, what else can they do when there is nothing new or
better to offer except maintaining the old ways?  (BTW, I wasn't being
sexist by using the word "bogeyman".  I had to use that word instead of
"bogey person", because I haven't read in here where any woman see things
like you do.)

What seems to come across very clear is that all the opposition to your
ideas about poetry cannot be understood, because the opposition has
absolutely no idea of about anything else, other then what they are use to
doing.  Besides, the opposition can be very insulted when it's applied it
doesn't know anything else.  Yet, that is far from your intent.  And I have
no doubt about your sincerity and respect you actually are exhibiting here
to all us poets.  Too bad it can't be noticed.

Keep expressing your thoughts.

At 05:28 AM 6/2/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>Ryan, I dont why its so tough to getit. Expecting education, does not in
>any way imply in any valid logic that you need to get a degree.
>
>I tire of having to explain that education today does not mean what it
>once meant. Education was geared toward civilizingan individual to a
>heightened sensibility and fluency with cultures of all types. Education
>can be simply a matter of reading (the right books of course) , hearing
>good works, and discussing. The American myopia is to regard the plea for
>education as a Euro-centricbias. Politics and moral indignation have
>replaced artistic sensibility. I agree that anti-intellectualism is crap,
>unfortunately it is exactly this crap that informs the pop culture; it
>has, since the sixties, degenerated into an aesthetic sense that considers
>Beauty to be pussy hallmark. Wow impressive.
>
>MFAs are a dime a dozen. Ive dropped out of one UCLA extension taught by
>someone with her MFA. Positive proof that education today has very little
>to do with artistic excellence.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ryan Oba [mailto:ryanoba@...]
>Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:16 AM
>To: CobaltPoets@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [CobaltPoets] Guess I should get a degree in poetry
>
>
>
>Hey Spacey,
>
>
>
>I was just going through the poetry section of Vroman's out here and
>seeing how many of my favorite poets actually have master of fine arts
>degrees in poetry.  Not many, actually.  I guess you can't teach genius. :)
>
>
>
>Before anyone cames after me with the anti-inteeeelectual crap, I went to
>Cornell and got one of those MFAs, and I am an English prof. I TEACH
>poetics, okay?
>
>
>
>But a great poem can come from anywhere, in any style, and that's one
>thing I like about poetry.
>
>
>
>Hey Spacey, showers have heard some of the best music in all creation, and
>lots of folks thought Leonardo was just doodling in his notebook, as
>well.  And as for dribble, you should see what can come out of some of
>these ivory tower English depts.
>
>
>
>Please keep writing and speaking and singing!
>
>
>
>Ryan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Ryan Oba]  -----Original Message-----
>From: Spacey Normally [mailto:stacynunnelly@...]
>Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 1:16 PM
>To: cobaltpoets@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [CobaltPoets] Guess I should get a degree in poetry
>
>I'm feeling very insecure right now, and a little sad.  I thought I found
>a place where my shower singing and doodles were accepted.  Now after
>reading all this, well lets just say I know where my place is now.  I just
>keep behind the counter and continue to server you drinks and not say a
>damn word.  I didn't mean to bother you "POETS"  with my dribble. Thanks,
>your illerterate counter girl at the cobalt.
>
>
>
>3fbf56.jpgSpacey Normally
>
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Free <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/tag/*http:/calendar.yahoo.com>online
>calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>CobaltPoets-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>CobaltPoets-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=251812.3170658.4537139.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705020082:\
HM/A=1564415/R=0/SIG=11t6t7kdo/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60164784&par\
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Hi Ray,
 
The reason it's tough to get it, I think is because we are talking about two different things.  Read my past messages.  All I was asking for was your ideas on how to make all these issues you are talking about better.  I'm glad that you tire of re-stating that education isn't what it used to be.  Good.  Let's move forward.
 
 All I've been hearing are statements of vast sweeping problems, not any ideas on how you might change things.  What am I trying to get? Your ideas, as specific as possible.  What would you do tomorrow?  Not to "American myopia" but in your neighborhood. In the education category, what would you do if you could make policy?  As a poet, what are you doing that you feel connects people to the art?  That's what I want to know.  
 
As for the MFA--in my opinion, if an MFA doesn't impress you--good--it shouldn't.  That was my point about saying most of my favorite poets don't even have one. I completely agree that the MFA degree is an academic construct; it does not mean you're a good poet. In fact, having an MFA myself gives me just a little more insight on that statement, don't you think? 
 
But fair is fair.  If you were looking to an extension course to give you more artistic excellence, then you were a victim of the same fallacy.  Of course you were disappointed.  I said I teach poetics, not poetry.  I can give you tools and meter and let you know all about metonymy and synecdoche and the history of the Black Mountain school.  But I can't teach anyone how to be a poet.  Perspectives, maybe.  The art itself, no way. And I don't see how any of my previous messages indicated otherwise.  I'm sorry if they did.
 
Whatever. I really don't feel that you understand where I'm coming from, and I suspect I'm missing some of your points as well.   I don't want to compound misunderstanding with misunderstanding. You know my name (I've never been on the header of such a long-lasting thread! *s* ), and one day if you seen me around at an event, come up and say hi.  I'll do the same if I see you. 
 
See ya!
Ryan
 
PS--In the meantime, I'd like to stand by my statement that Spacey should keep singing and writing and speaking...and doodling!

THIS TUESDAY AT THE COBALT CAFE:

	 BUDDY WAKEFIELD, a force of nature, reads.
	 Tuesday, June 3, 2003, 9:00 evening

	 22047 Sherman Way, Canoga Park, California
	 Just west of Topanga Canyon, and east of China

	 Bring something to read in the OPEN READING
	 seven minute time limit, one drink minimum

	 Free


BUDDY WAKEFIELD

	 BUDDY WAKEFIELD is the 2003 Seattle Grand Poetry Slam Champion,
	 2002 Long Beach, CA Grand and Midwest Regional Poetry Slam Champion
	 voted Favorite Poet at the 2002 Midwest Slam Poet's Choice Awards
	 as well as Best Featured Slam Poet 2001-`02, Arizona. Anthology
	 Magazine awarded Wakefield First Prize in their 2002 poetry
	 competition, and he is a co-founder of The Bullhorn Collective.
	 Buddy is known for his relentlessly honest subject matter, intense
	 delivery style and bio-rhythmic punch. In the spring of 2001,
	 Wakefield sold or gave away everything he owned, left his job as
	 the executive assistant at a biomedical firm, and now lives from
	 his car in the midst of a two-year tour dedicated to the art of
	 spoken word.


BROADSIDE

	 We will be publishing a broadsides of one of Buddy's poems which
	 will  be available at the reading.  This is the 12th in the Cobalt
	 Broadsides series and will be available for $1.00 and all of each
	 one dollar will go to our featured guest.  You can view all of our
	 previously published broadsides on the Cobalt Poets website at
	 http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/cobalt


UPCOMING READINGS AT THE COBALT CAFE

	 June 3  - Featured Guest BUDDY WAKEFIELD + open reading
	 June 10 - Featured Regular LESLIE MARYANN NEAL + open reading
	 June 17 - VCP* Presents ANTHONY LEE + open reading
	 June 24 - Cobalt 'classic' open reading

	 July 1  - Featured Guest JERRY QUICKLEY + open reading
	 July 8  - Featured Regular MAXWELL JUST MAXWELL

	 * Valley Contemporary Poets

Cobalt Poets:
http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/cobalt
--

STOLEN MUMMIES: The Poet's Experience in London,
new book and CD by Rick Lupert.
Check it out and order online at
http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/sm.html

Hey Ray,
This isn't an attack, but you make such 'vast sweeping' generalizations that it
is difficult to take
anything you say seriously. I can see why Ryan asked for specifics. It would
seem that he is not
asking you to provide all the answers, just answer the questions more
specifically than saying,
"I respond There is only one ‘vast sweeping problem’ – American culture sucks.
Why does the
world hate Americans. It is a deep visceral cultural hatred.
Americans are crass, vulgar, complacent with the aesthetics of a mud-sated sow."
Do you
mean to say all Americans are this way? You insult your own intelligence by
making a
statement that broad. Only a fool begins a statement with a word that involves
280 million
people and ends it with a subjective opinion. Another thing, why is everyone so
hell bent on
beating each other down with their vocabularies. The one upping is old. In the
end, this isn't
about poetry really. It's about everyone's need to be heard and to feel
important. So I say come
as you are... even if we're crass, vulgar, and complacent with aesthetics of a
mud-sated cow.
Whew! that is a mouthful.
Much Love,
Justin

the purpose of Life is to break up the monotony of non-existence -Justin Winston

--
__________________________________________________________
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--- In CobaltPoets@yahoogroups.com, terrymcca@a... wrote:

> Actually, Ryan's wisdom shouldn't be discounted here.  To
> demand that Ryan sign a "virtual loyalty oath" to your opinion that
American
> culture is debased-and, ergo, poetic standards are ignored in favor
of
> easy-to-write banality is  uncalled for.
>
> Please learn to appreciate all poetry and jettison your superiority
complex.


Sheesh!!! I'm an imMensa--belong to 4 M-lists.  And nowhere have I
found the verbosity of this poetical group.  Are you guys off the IQ
scale & out in the wild blue yonder?  Are you trying to make us look
like Densa?  Is wordier better or worser?  Or have I finally found a
group that out-egocentrifies Mensa?

Obviously, I've jettisoned the superior exterior that hides the
inferior interior.

Luv anyway :)

Leila's Stylus

So you parrot Ryan's words. You do not address the substance of my
response. If you are going to quote me, why don't you quote -
"It is axiomatic that in order to solve a problem, one must first
identify it. We have been flailing to meet that first requirement.
Before I even make formulaic suggestions I must first get your sign on
that the culture is reprehensible.
I don't remember you doing that"

The whole world criticizes American culture - it is not an act of
arrogance - it is not a moral issue - it is not a character flaw. There
are no equal rights for bad poets.

The expectation that poets join hands acwoss Amewica is at once
infantile and sanctimonious.
The grim reality is not equality but the punishing of excellence as
'academic', 'elitist', 'superior' in favor of the semi-literate doggerel
of wannabes.
Excuses, excuses, excuses for mediocrity - and to put it bluntly - no
talent.


-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Winston [mailto:jungleboogie@...]
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 11:34 PM
To: cobaltpoets@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CobaltPoets] reminiscing of baraka drama

Hey Ray,
This isn't an attack, but you make such 'vast sweeping' generalizations
that it is difficult to take
anything you say seriously. I can see why Ryan asked for specifics. It
would seem that he is not
asking you to provide all the answers, just answer the questions more
specifically than saying,
"I respond There is only one 'vast sweeping problem' - American culture
sucks. Why does the
world hate Americans. It is a deep visceral cultural hatred.
Americans are crass, vulgar, complacent with the aesthetics of a
mud-sated sow." Do you
mean to say all Americans are this way? You insult your own intelligence
by making a
statement that broad. Only a fool begins a statement with a word that
involves 280 million
people and ends it with a subjective opinion. Another thing, why is
everyone so hell bent on
beating each other down with their vocabularies. The one upping is old.
In the end, this isn't
about poetry really. It's about everyone's need to be heard and to feel
important. So I say come
as you are... even if we're crass, vulgar, and complacent with
aesthetics of a mud-sated cow.
Whew! that is a mouthful.
Much Love,
Justin

the purpose of Life is to break up the monotony of non-existence -Justin
Winston

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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Cute. I don't always write like that. But the topic is complex and I
need to word my point very carefully. It is 'lit crit' which is usually
'intelleksual'.

-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Schneider [mailto:resumes2resq@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 12:33 AM
To: CobaltPoets@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: E: [CobaltPoets] Guess I should get a degree in poetry

--- In CobaltPoets@yahoogroups.com, terrymcca@a... wrote:

> Actually, Ryan's wisdom shouldn't be discounted here.  To
> demand that Ryan sign a "virtual loyalty oath" to your opinion that
American
> culture is debased-and, ergo, poetic standards are ignored in favor
of
> easy-to-write banality is  uncalled for.
>
> Please learn to appreciate all poetry and jettison your superiority
complex.


Sheesh!!! I'm an imMensa--belong to 4 M-lists.  And nowhere have I
found the verbosity of this poetical group.  Are you guys off the IQ
scale & out in the wild blue yonder?  Are you trying to make us look
like Densa?  Is wordier better or worser?  Or have I finally found a
group that out-egocentrifies Mensa?

Obviously, I've jettisoned the superior exterior that hides the
inferior interior.

Luv anyway :)

Leila's Stylus











To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
CobaltPoets-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

----- Original Message -----
From: Ray <lanthier@...>
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 02:49:04 -0700
To: 'Justin Winston' <jungleboogie@...>
Subject: [CobaltPoets] CobaltPoets] reminiscing of baraka drama

> I thought the following was deserving of special comment
>
>
>
> "Only a fool begins a statement with a word that involves 280 million
>
> people and ends it with a subjective opinion. "
>
>
>
> Of course you conveniently do not cite this 'word'.
>
> And you beg the question by claiming it is just an opinion. To say on
> top of that that it is subjective adds nothing.
>
> That in turn is your opinion.
>
> Only a fool would think that statements about America and its culture is
> about each and every one of 280 million people.
>
> It is certainly not about me, or many of the poets I admire. Duh.
>
> You see what that means is that we don't subscribe to the popular
> culture.
>
> De Toqueville wrote a definitive book about American democracy - full of
> opinions about all those individuals (in your way of thinking). De
> Toqueville by your logic is a fool.
>
Hmm.... Because the man has a flowery french name, I am supposed to care about
or even
agree with what he says? He might be a fool in my opinion. Who knows? That is
hardly the
point though. When you say American, the word I conviently omitted, you lump a
lot of people
together. However, I appluad you for clarifying with American pop culture. I can
agree that pop
culture sucks, but I can not agree that it is santimonious melodrama to
appreciate the poet
for who he is. If the poetry isn't very good, encourage him to get better. Most
things in the
universe fall on the bell shaped curve. Which means the middle is a big place
and most
people fall in it. So if you are tired of mediocrity, find a different universe
to live in. Again I say;
in the end,  its about trying to understand where a person is coming from
regardless of their
level of skill.  I have known dozens of people who feel afraid to speak or write
because they
feel that they aren't 'good enough'. Fuck that! I will support the mediocre if
no one else will.

much love
Justin Winston



the purpose of Life is to break up the monotony of non-existence -Justin Winston

--
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If no one will refute these falsehoods, I will.

Ahh, Ray.
I don't know how you can swing from a position
in which you make a valid insightful criticism
to the growing conformist culture in the poetic
community to baseless, cliche criticisms of
the red, white and blue.
Nothing is more cliche in the poetic community
than mud-slinging against ol' Uncle Sam.
We praise the First Amendment but shit
on the country that brought it about.

Justin makes an excellent point.
You're rapidly undermining your credibility
by blasting anything in sight.
>
> There is only one 'vast sweeping problem' - American
> culture sucks. Why
> does the world hate Americans? It is a deep visceral
> cultural hatred.

Does the world hate Americans?
With all the countries in the world rapidly
mimicking American culture?  I don't think so.
It's not some corporate puppet-master
making these people play jazz, baseball,
and even wear bsaeball caps.  They do
so of their own free-will.
I submit to you this considerably more false than
true.  If anything many countries envy our
influence and many countries are greatful for
the economic, military and humanitarian aid
we give to bring freedom and stability
to a world bent on denying both through apathy,
selfishness or simple, mindless melodrama that
compels them to hate America because it's in
fashion.
You have your opinion, fine.
I have mine.
>
> Americans are crass, vulgar, complacent with the
> aesthetics of a
> mud-sated sow. It is axiomatic that in order to
> solve a problem, one
> must first identify it. We have been flailing to
> meet that first
> requirement.

I give you the third one.
Complacency.  Yes, right on.
The other two?  You've got to be kidding, right?
Crass?  Not from what I've seen from
my travels and experience with people of
other cultures.  It's a myth that Europe
has some kind of lock on culture.
Age doesn't mean wisdom.
The same as new doesn't mean better.

Vulgar?  Try again.
That's a relative term if there ever was one.
Completely subjective, by hey, that's just
an opinion.  One I don't share.

The problem is in your phrasing.
You assault American culture, but you
seem to think that only Americans suffer
from these atrocious characteristics.
You are right to attack the mediocrity
that's in the poetic community, but I don't
think you can revise a culture
to improve it.  The Soviets tried to
revise a culture with disastrous results
to their art, economy and literature.

> Before I even make formulaic suggestions I must
> first get your sign on
> that the culture is reprehensible.
>
> I don't remember you doing that. It is not my fault
> that the problem is
> wide and sweeping. America is a big place, and
> culturally , it bites.
>
Granted you are expressing an opinion, but
there is little evidence to support much of
your tirade against American culture.

Stick to the suggestions for improvement.
I'd like to know what you'd suggest.
Seriously?  I like a challenge.

DAVE

hey Ron!

Can I send a reply back-channel?  This thread is getting out of hand....

email me back! :)
Ryan


-------Original Message-------
From: Ron Gregus <Goose-Net@...>
Sent: 06/02/03 12:50 PM
To: CobaltPoets@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [CobaltPoets] Guess I should get a degree in poetry

>

Hi Ray,
 
The reason it's tough to get it, I think is because we are talking about two different things.  Read my past messages.  All I was asking for was your ideas on how to make all these issues you are talking about better.  I'm glad that you tire of re-stating that education isn't what it used to be.  Good.  Let's move forward.
 
 All I've been hearing are statements of vast sweeping problems, not any ideas on how you might change things.  What am I trying to get? Your ideas, as specific as possible.  What would you do tomorrow?  Not to "American myopia" but in your neighborhood. In the education category, what would you do if you could make policy?  As a poet, what are you doing that you feel connects people to the art?  That's what I want to know.  
 
As for the MFA--in my opinion, if an MFA doesn't impress you--good--it shouldn't.  That was my point about saying most of my favorite poets don't even have one. I completely agree that the MFA degree is an academic construct; it does not mean you're a good poet. In fact, having an MFA myself gives me just a little more insight on that statement, don't you think? 
 
But fair is fair.  If you were looking to an extension course to give you more artistic excellence, then you were a victim of the same fallacy.  Of course you were disappointed.  I said I teach poetics, not poetry.  I can give you tools and meter and let you know all about metonymy and synecdoche and the history of the Black Mountain school.  But I can't teach anyone how to be a poet.  Perspectives, maybe.  The art itself, no way. And I don't see how any of my previous messages indicated otherwise.  I'm sorry if they did.
 
Whatever. I really don't feel that you understand where I'm coming from, and I suspect I'm missing some of your points as well.   I don't want to compound misunderstanding with misunderstanding. You know my name (I've never been on the header of such a long-lasting thread! *s* ), and one day if you seen me around at an event, come up and say hi.  I'll do the same if I see you. 
 
See ya!
Ryan
 
PS--In the meantime, I'd like to stand by my statement that Spacey should keep singing and writing and speaking...and doodling!