I have been thinking lately about how 'historical
conlangers' go about their work, and am thinking of
eventually turning the thoughts into some kind of essay. I
would appreciate what others who are into that line of
conlanging think of what I've come up with so far.

Apologies to those who get this message multiply, but I want to
reach as many as possible.

- People usually have one language or dialect which was
    there first in real time, and which often remains central
    to the whole edifice, from which various imaginary
    ancestors, daughters and siblings (what I call "stages" or
    "nodes") radiate.

    - It is notably often *not* the protolanguage (the highest
      node in the linguistic family tree) which was there
      first in real time, but some later form which gets
      labeled "classical" or some variety thereof.

- I make a terminological distinction between 'versions' in
    real time and 'stages' in imaginary time meant to provide
    orientation when exploring the development through real
    time of the imaginary history of imaginary languages,
    where one has to deal with two dimensions of time:

    - Effectively any piece of linguistic creation by an
      historical conlanger has to be placed on a coordinatde
      system where one axis is the conlanger's lifetime and
      the other axis the history of the imaginary universe
      where the stages are spoken.

    - It is not necessarily or usually the case that what I
      call a later version of one language represents a break
      or fresh start relative to any or all earlier versions.
      A new version need not be a rewrite, but probably a
      conscious revision as opposed to a tweak or a bug fix.
      :-) Changes and differences may be gradual, cumulative,
      abrupt or whatever.

    - "Stages" may go through various "versions" or
      "revisions", often without all the stages being
      revised at the same time, although a revision in some
      place in the family tree -- especially a major one --
      may of course have larger or smaller repercussions
      throughout the tree.

      - Some stages are revised more often and/or more
        extensively than others.

      - The "central" stage tends to undergo less revision
        than other stages.

      - Changes to the "central" stage are likely to have more
        and heavier repercussions on other stages.

      - The protolanguage, being primary in imagined time but
        secondary in real time actually tends to get revised
        more, usually with a view to make it more plausible as
        a common ancestor of sibling nodes lower in the tree.

-    Unlike real language history the protolanguage is a
           secondary product made to fit its daughters.

    - Should I use the term "node", as on an imaginary family
      tree, throughout instead of "stage". What do native
      English speakers think of these terms (stage, node,
      version) as I use them?

Thanks in advance for your comments!

A report (not entirely correct) that appeared in the
Welsh arts magazine "Golwg" last week :

===================================================

Golwg 26th October 2006 [Translation : Keith Bailey]

** Book Dispute -- Library "supporting the Cornish
people" **

The National Library of Wales has been under "external
pressure" to try to halt the publication of a Cornish
book, according to the author. But the Library has
denied the charge and claims to be supporting the
Cornish people and their language.

The dispute arose over the publication of a new
version of the tale *Bywnans Ke*, by Ken George and
the Cornish Language Board.

As the source manuscript is in the care of the
National Library in Aberystwyth, they have refused Ken
George permission to publish the work.

But, he says the fact that the National Library are
about to publish their own new version
of the text, in association with Exeter University, is
responsible for their opposition.

"We don't have a quarrel with the National Library",
Ken George told *Golwg*. "The Library is under
pressure from outside sources, and that's our chief
complaint."

"The Library are only carrying out their
responsibilities as they see them."

A spokesman for the National Library of Wales said
they had no choice other than to raise the matter of
copyright with Ken George and the Cornish Language
Board -- out of "fairness" to Exeter University Press.

But the book by Ken George has already gone on sale,
and *Golwg* understands that the Library are seeking
sales figures along with details of any plans to issue
further editions.

The Library could block the publication of other
versions, but the emphasis at present, according to
the Library, is on securing a "amicable understanding"
with the Cornish Language Board.

"We don't want to take this matter any further", said
a spokesman for the National Library of Wales. "We are
very keen to support the people of Cornwall."

"The fact that we have invested in our own edition is
proof of that."

Exeter University Press did not wish to comment on the
matter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keith




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Dell hevel hemm yw dhe les

The following is possibly of interest :

Ynwedh/ Also :

http://www.howlsedhes.co.uk/bywnanske/

-------------------------------------------

Y Cymro 20th Oct 2006 (Front Page) [Translation :
Keith Bailey]

*** Celtic Cousins' Argument ***

Threats by the National Library of Wales to prosecute
the Cornish Language Board for publishing an ancient
Cornish manuscript -- Beunans Ke (The Life of St. Kea)
have sparked a local spelling war among Cornish
speakers.

A fortnight ago Y Cymro revealed that the National
Library of Wales had sent a letter to the Cornish
Language Board, asking for every copy of the [Board's]
edition of the drama, which dates from the Middle
Ages, to be recalled from sale.

It is believed that so far the only person to back the
Library's position is the Director of Cornish Studies
at the University of Exeter, Prof. Philip Payton.

He confirmed that the University of Exeter Press was
on the verge of publishing its own scholarly edition
of the manuscript, which would sell for £60 -- in
comparison to £11 for the Cornish Language Board's
edition.

"The University of Exeter's version will be a standard
scholarly edition, equivalent to other publications of
this type," he told Y Cymro. [Difficult to tell from
the Welsh exactly what Payton told the paper
presumably in English].

He pointed out that the Cornish Language Board was a
voluntary body, and that members of the Board were
[NOT] the only authorities on the Cornish Language. [A
'not' has clearly been dropped here at some stage!]

He stressed the need for the National Library and the
University of Exeter Press to safeguard their rights
and copyright. Nevertheless, it was accepted that the
copyright of a work between 500 and 700 years old was
somewhat problematic.

The row has brought to light another bone of
contention, namely which spelling system should be
used for Cornish. As mentioned in Y Cymro a fortnight
ago, a new orthography was devised for the language by
Dr. Ken George -- a system which is accepted by the
vast majority of those able to speak Cornish. Dr.
George was responsible for editing the Cornish
Language Board's edition of Beuna[n]s Ke.

But the University of Exeter's Department of Cornish
Studies favours sticking with the system promoted by
Robert Morton Nance -- that is using the spelling of
the Tudor Period.

According to one bookseller in Cornwall, Paul Dunbar
who owns the Du a Gwenn [sic] shop in Liskeard, books
employing the system devised by Dr. George sell. But
those which use the older form stay on the shelves.

Owen John Thomas AM has criticised the National
Library of Wales for challenging the right of Kesva an
Taves Kernewek (The Cornish Language Board) to publish
the ancient manuscript Beuna[n]s Ke (The Life of Kea).

As Y Cymro revealed a fortnight ago, the Corporate
Services Department of the Library has accused the
Cornish Language Board of breaching copyright law by
publishing the ancient drama, a copy of which is held
by the Library.

In a letter to Andrew Green, Librarian of the National
Library, Mr Thomas said that the Library's actions,
"showed the same arrogant attitude that is displayed
by large countries when they refuse to return an
important part of the heritage of a small country --
in this case of our Celtic cousins.

Meanwhile it is understood that Mark Mainwaring has
sent a second letter on behalf of the Library's
Corporate Services Department, this time to the
Cornish Language Board's solicitor. Now he is
complaining of the Board's lack of courtesy, saying
that they should have sought permission prior to
publication.

An attempt was made by Y Cymro to get the opinion of
those working with the National Library to produce
this expensive 'de luxe' designer edition of Beunans
Ke.

Dr. Nicholas Williams of University College Dublin was
not prepared to comment on the matter.

Mick Paynter, Deputy Grand Bard of Cornwall, said that
the situation had received far more attention in Wales
than in Cornwall. But he felt that Cornish speakers
were clearly concerned that the National Library of
Wales was putting unfair pressure on the Board.

"Morally we feel that the whole situation is unfair,
and we'd like to see the work in question back in
Cornwall," he said.

"All we're concerned about is that our language
continues to exist, and that we have the right to all
of our texts."

He added: "We feel that this should never have
happened, and we're concerned that it might jepardise
our relations with Wales."

---------------------------------------------


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--- Thomas Leigh <thomas@...>
wrote:

> For anyone who's interested!

Meur ras! Here are some "last speaker" tall stories
:-)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/magazine/29LANGUAGE.html?ei=5007&en=c144a14edb\
46c82e&ex=1393390800&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=all&position=

http://nativenewsonline.org/history/hist0108.html

http://www.nmnh.si.edu/anthro/goddard1.html

----------

> The course fee of $295.00 includes ...

Marth a'm beus! Dell hevel yma arghans ow resek kepar
ha dowr y'n SUA. Porth kov mar plegewgh a'gas kowetha
voghosek yn Bro Goth agas Tasow. Ny vern gorthyp --
marnas danvonn bern bras mona!

Please give generously to the Cornish Language
organisation of your choice :-)

Mongvras

*************************************

[Original message from Thomas Leigh]

The Third Annual Pennseythun Gernewek Amerikanek
(American Cornish
Language Weekend)

Wednesday 2 August – Sunday 6 August 2006, Berkeley
Springs, West
Virginia

This year’s Cornish Language Weekend will be the
biggest and best ever!
Set in Berkeley Springs, a resort town in the
mountains of West
Virginia’s eastern panhandle, our five-day program
will feature:
- Daily language lessons at all levels from beginner
to advanced
- A tour of nearby Antietam, Harper’s Ferry, and
Shepherdstown,
conducted in Cornish
- Sightseeing and a nature walk in the hills around
Berkeley Springs
- A Cornish troyll (cèilidh) with live music
- A pasty dinner with pasties prepared by the students

The instructor for the course is Dr. Benjamin Bruch, a
language bard of
the Cornish Gorsedd with over eight years of
experience as a Cornish
language teacher. The course fee of $295.00 includes
the troyll and
pasty dinner. Accommodations are not included, but
information on
hotels, motels, and B&Bs in the Berkeley Springs area
is available here.

For further information about the Pennseythun or other
course offerings,
please contact us at info@..., or
write to us at:
Pennseythun Gernewek Amerikanek
PO Box 16356
Baltimore, MD 21210
USA
304-258-2604






__________________________________________________
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Deiniol Jones skrev:

>>What site? I missed that -- missed quite a lot as I've been working!
>
>
> Here we go:
> http://ib.frath.net/w/Lla_Dafern/Archive1#Font_Sampler
>
>
>>I have a set of parchment background tiles that I got on the net.

<snip>

> Nice! That will definitely come in useful! Trugareth.

I made a google image search for tiles that are or are purported
to be parchment or images that can be made into tiles
and put them up for viewing at <http://www.melroch.se/parchment/>.

There is a filter in the GIMP for turning an image into
a tile, although I don't know what it's called in English,
since I use the Swedish-language version of the GIMP.

If anyone wants help with a particular image please tell me.
Next week I'll be in Denmark, however.

--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se

     "Maybe" is a strange word.  When mum or dad says it
     it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
     means "no"!

                             (Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)

For anyone who's interested!

-- Thomas


*************************************


The Third Annual Pennseythun Gernewek Amerikanek (American Cornish
Language Weekend)

Wednesday 2 August – Sunday 6 August 2006, Berkeley Springs, West
Virginia

This year’s Cornish Language Weekend will be the biggest and best ever!
Set in Berkeley Springs, a resort town in the mountains of West
Virginia’s eastern panhandle, our five-day program will feature:
- Daily language lessons at all levels from beginner to advanced
- A tour of nearby Antietam, Harper’s Ferry, and Shepherdstown,
conducted in Cornish
- Sightseeing and a nature walk in the hills around Berkeley Springs
- A Cornish troyll (cèilidh) with live music
- A pasty dinner with pasties prepared by the students

The instructor for the course is Dr. Benjamin Bruch, a language bard of
the Cornish Gorsedd with over eight years of experience as a Cornish
language teacher. The course fee of $295.00 includes the troyll and
pasty dinner. Accommodations are not included, but information on
hotels, motels, and B&Bs in the Berkeley Springs area is available here.

For further information about the Pennseythun or other course offerings,
please contact us at info@..., or write to us at:
Pennseythun Gernewek Amerikanek
PO Box 16356
Baltimore, MD 21210
USA
304-258-2604

--- Deiniol Jones skrzypszy:

> > In relation with that, I have a small suggestion. Wouldn't it be
> > nice to have a few parallel texts of Arvorec, Welsh, Breton,
> > Gaulish and what's more?
>
> As promised: http://arvorec.net/arvorec/comparison.htm

Wow, that was fast! Thank you for that. Very informative, this page!
Goes on to prove that despite a certain similarity to Welsh (in the
eyes a Celtidiot like me, that is) Arvorec is something really quite
different.

As an aside, the text could be a nice translation exercise. It has
been a while since I did my last translation into Wenedyk.

> Hah! When I get some soundfiles up we'll se how that goes!

Don't forget to let us know!

Jan

"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed
room with a mosquito."

http://steen.free.fr/







.



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Hi!

Deiniol Jones writes:
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
>
> > I did something similar, also using The Gimp, but I am not completely
> > satisfied. Do you have some more hints of how to make the result look
> > more realistic?
> >
> > http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s17/history.html#aquila
>
> Wow! Henrik, that looks incredibly realistic already-
>...

You think so?  Thanks! :-)

I simple copied the letters from old documents I found on the web.
I'll think about more stains.

**Henrik

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Deiniol Jones wrote:

> (if we can get an IB-Irish version as
> well it would be great) from *here* as a comparaison.

Not possible currently, the reason being that IB-Irish isn't anywhere
stable enough for me to translate anything into it. Suffice it to say
though that it isn't a million miles away from Irish *here*.

K.

- --
Keith Gaughan | http://talideon.com/
"You forgot the first rule of the fanatic: when you become obsessed with
the enemy, you become the enemy."
     -- Jeffrey Sinclair, Babylon 5 episode "Infection"
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Jan van Steenbergen wrote:

> In relation with that, I have a small suggestion. Wouldn't it be nice
> to have a few parallel texts of Arvorec, Welsh, Breton, Gaulish and
> what's more?

As promised: http://arvorec.net/arvorec/comparison.htm

Mongvras wrote:

> It looked very convincing, pur dha, proper job! (That
> goes for the language as a whole, btw).

Thank you!

> As a Cornish speaker, Arvorec makes more sense to me than does
> Revived Late Cornish ;-)

Hah! When I get some soundfiles up we'll se how that goes!

> Btw. how much were you able to work from Gaulish and
> how much did you rely on the British languages *here*?

Hm. Well. As you know, there's not much left of attested Gaulish, so
most of it has been based on a Gallicised proto-Celtic with as many
Gaulish words as I can find thrown in (such as ceysdhan < cassidanos,
gwerthra < vertragos, brew < briva and so on).

In earlier revisions of Arvorec I relied heavily on Brythonic,
particularly for the grammar and syntax. In this revision, however, I've
consciously avoided that in many cases. The verbal system, for example,
now has a lot more in common with Old Irish. The preverbal system isn't
exactly like any of the Celtic natlangs but something wholly sui
generis. Much of it now just "takes inspiration from" Brythonic and
(Old) Irish fairly equally (Brythonic more so in the nominal morphology,
due to the loss of cases- ironic that IB's only Brythonic lang, on the
other hand, retains the cases!). The syntax is far more "pan-Celtic" now
that what it was.

> Q. What do you call a Welshman in a suit?
>
> A. "The Accused" :-)

:P

Dan

--- Deiniol Jones <deiniol@...>
wrote:

> The "Welcome to Landrewan" sign
> was actually a lot
> easier to do!

It looked very convincing, pur dha, proper job! (That
goes for the language as a whole, btw). As a Cornish
speaker, Arvorec makes more sense to me than does
Revived Late Cornish ;-)

Btw. how much were you able to work from Gaulish and
how much did you rely on the British languages *here*?

> > Oh, and that fellow on the front
> > page of "An Byd Arvorec", that's you, right?
>
> Yes, that's me. I needed an official-yet-rakish
> looking man in a suit
> for the newspaper as I originally wanted to have a
> political caption.
> After I couldn't find a suitable picture of someone
> else I used an old
> one of me and changed the caption to "This Welshman:
> Did he just make
> the language?".

Q. What do you call a Welshman in a suit?

A. "The Accused" :-)

Pob hwyl, Gorhemmynnadow a'n gwella,

Mongvras




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Melroch 'Aestan wrote:

> > That was quite a bit of work, actually. I do all of my images using
> the
> > GIMP. First I got a sample of text in an appropriate front from that
> > website Ronald linked us to a while ago.
>
> What site? I missed that -- missed quite a lot as I've been working!

Here we go:
http://ib.frath.net/w/Lla_Dafern/Archive1#Font_Sampler

> I have a set of parchment background tiles that I got on the net.
> <http://melroch.se/parch-dark.jpg>
> <http://melroch.se/parch-light.jpg>
> <http://melroch.se/parch.jpg>
> <http://melroch.se/parch2.jpg>
>
> You may look at <http://tinyurl.com/mopch> to see two of them in
> action.
> (Though you may only see one of them in MSIE). It should be relatively
> easy to create GIMP patterns from them.

Nice! That will definitely come in useful! Trugareth.

> Is there any advantage in that compared to working from a
> GIMP text layer?

If you have the appropriate font you want to use on your computer, none
whatsoever. However, if you've used the linotype site in order to get a
sample of the font you want, it's neccessary as the images they provide
have a white background.

> > Then I resized the image up
> > to triple the size and selected the black in the text and replaced
> it
> > with a vèry dark brown.
>
> Again is there any advantage to that from actually using a text
> layer with the brown color?

Yes, as it happens. If you do it that way it doesn't select *all* the
text but only the central parts, if you see what I mean. So it's not a
uniform brown but a more varied colour.

> I trust you saved an unflattened copy of the image...

I don't think I did, as it happens. :(

> How do you do to
> apply a filter only to one layer, BTW?

Just select that layer, before you flatten it (using the GIMP, of
course)

Deiniol

Deiniol Jones skrev:

>>How did you make the "Early Arvorec Manuscript" image, BTW? I'd like
>>to do something similar for Wenedyk.
>
>
> That was quite a bit of work, actually. I do all of my images using the
> GIMP. First I got a sample of text in an appropriate front from that
> website Ronald linked us to a while ago.

What site?  I missed that -- missed quite a lot as I've been working!

> Then it was a matter of
> creating the right "look" for the parchment, which is all down to
> judicious use of layers:
>
> The bottom layer I filled with the "paper" pattern from the GIMP's
> pattern list. The layer above that was a yellowish colour- about the
> same as the background on the Arvorec pages, but set to 85% transparency
> to show through the roughness.

I have a set of parchment background tiles that I got on the net.
<http://melroch.se/parch-dark.jpg>
<http://melroch.se/parch-light.jpg>
<http://melroch.se/parch.jpg>
<http://melroch.se/parch2.jpg>

You may look at <http://tinyurl.com/mopch> to see two of them in action.
(Though you may only see one of them in MSIE).  It should be relatively
easy to create GIMP patterns from them.

> Then I pasted in the text into the next
> layer above (having replaced the white background of the sample that the
> website generates to transparency) and set that to 95% transparency,
> again to get some of the roughness through.

Is there any advantage in that compared to working from a
GIMP text layer?

> Then I resized the image up
> to triple the size and selected the black in the text and replaced it
> with a vèry dark brown.

Again is there any advantage to that from actually using a text
layer with the brown color?

> Then applied a small gaussian blur filter to
> muss up the edges a bit. Shrank it back down to the appropriate size,
> added a new layer with a couple of irregular dots in a lighter brown and
> then applied another blur filter in order to get it to spread over the
> widest area possible for the stains. Finally, I flattened the image and
> saved it as a jpg.

I trust you saved an unflattened copy of the image...  How do you do to
apply a filter only to one layer, BTW?

--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

Henrik Theiling wrote:

> I did something similar, also using The Gimp, but I am not completely
> satisfied. Do you have some more hints of how to make the result look
> more realistic?
>
> http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s17/history.html#aquila

Wow! Henrik, that looks incredibly realistic already- far better than my
efforts- I love the way you've captured that almost "translucent" look
of parchment. The only thing I could really suggest is a couple more
stains, maybe? But I have to say that I like it as it is!

Dan

Hi!

Deiniol Jones writes:
> Jan van Steenbergen wrote:
>...
> > How did you make the "Early Arvorec Manuscript" image, BTW? I'd like
> > to do something similar for Wenedyk.
>
> That was quite a bit of work, actually. I do all of my images using the
> GIMP. First I got a sample of text in an appropriate front from that
> website Ronald linked us to a while ago. Then it was a matter of
> creating the right "look" for the parchment, which is all down to
> judicious use of layers:
>...

I did something similar, also using The Gimp, but I am not completely
satisfied.  Do you have some more hints of how to make the result look
more realistic?

http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s17/history.html#aquila

**Henrik

Jan van Steenbergen wrote:

> About the language itself: I'm ashamed to admit that I know awfully
> little about Celtic, which makes it hard for me to truly appreciate
> Arvorec for what it is worth. I just féél that it is a magnificent
> piece of work, but exactly how and why is something I can't really
> tell. Which I regret a lot, I can tell you! All I can say is that I
> love the detailed grammar and the looks of the language. A really
> monumental piece of work!

:D Thank you! I'm really proud of it, I have to say- it was worth the
six year wait IMO. And the great thing is I can tinker with it and add
in more detail "pý dhá an bow da gadh" (until the cows come home).

> In relation with that, I have a small suggestion. Wouldn't it be nice
> to have a few parallel texts of Arvorec, Welsh, Breton, Gaulish and
> what's more? That way, a Celtic dummy like me could see where Arvorec
> stands within the family.

That's a good idea, and one which has been hanging around in the back of
my mind for a while now. In D.B. Gregor's "Celtic: A Comparative Study"
there's a section with an extract from St. Mark's Gospel translated into
each of *here*'s Celtic languages. I was going to translate the passage
into Arvorec for my own enjoyment, but as you've requested it I'll type
it up with the other languages (if we can get an IB-Irish version as
well it would be great) from *here* as a comparaison. But not
immediately, however, as my current "project" is a geographical guide to
the islands, of which I intend on getting Ceasaer finished first.

After that and the wee translation exercise, I'll write up some of the
culture notes I have lying around, webbify and finish off the Cravethism
page and the pages I currently want on the Embassy website will be done.

> There's only óne thing I'm still missing: sound bytes. Would you be
> inclined and equipped to make a recording of a text, so that we can
> actually listen to spoken Arvorec?

I intend on doing that eventually, when I get round to mastering the new
phonology I've given the language- the /s_d s_a/ distinction I find
difficult. One reason why I kept the Serchec dialect so conservative was
so that I can continue pronounce it as I was used to!

> How did you make the "Early Arvorec Manuscript" image, BTW? I'd like
> to do something similar for Wenedyk.

That was quite a bit of work, actually. I do all of my images using the
GIMP. First I got a sample of text in an appropriate front from that
website Ronald linked us to a while ago. Then it was a matter of
creating the right "look" for the parchment, which is all down to
judicious use of layers:

The bottom layer I filled with the "paper" pattern from the GIMP's
pattern list. The layer above that was a yellowish colour- about the
same as the background on the Arvorec pages, but set to 85% transparency
to show through the roughness. Then I pasted in the text into the next
layer above (having replaced the white background of the sample that the
website generates to transparency) and set that to 95% transparency,
again to get some of the roughness through. Then I resized the image up
to triple the size and selected the black in the text and replaced it
with a vèry dark brown. Then applied a small gaussian blur filter to
muss up the edges a bit. Shrank it back down to the appropriate size,
added a new layer with a couple of irregular dots in a lighter brown and
then applied another blur filter in order to get it to spread over the
widest area possible for the stains. Finally, I flattened the image and
saved it as a jpg. The "Welcome to Landrewan" sign was actually a lot
easier to do!

> Oh, and that fellow on the front
> page of "An Byd Arvorec", that's you, right?

Yes, that's me. I needed an official-yet-rakish looking man in a suit
for the newspaper as I originally wanted to have a political caption.
After I couldn't find a suitable picture of someone else I used an old
one of me and changed the caption to "This Welshman: Did he just make
the language?".

Dan

--- Deiniol Jones skrzypszy:

> The grammar itself runs to ten pages, and can be found here:
> http://www.arvorec.net/arvorec/arvorec0.htm while the index can be
> found here: http://www.arvorec.net/arvorec/arvorec9.htm
>
> Happy reading and let me know what you think!

Tremendous, Dan! Due to all the IB discussions, I haven't really had
the time yet to look at it, but now that I finally did, I'm really
pleasantly surprised. And that says something, because your previous
page was really good, too.

About the language itself: I'm ashamed to admit that I know awfully
little about Celtic, which makes it hard for me to truly appreciate
Arvorec for what it is worth. I just féél that it is a magnificent
piece of work, but exactly how and why is something I can't really
tell. Which I regret a lot, I can tell you! All I can say is that I
love the detailed grammar and the looks of the language. A really
monumental piece of work!

In relation with that, I have a small suggestion. Wouldn't it be nice
to have a few parallel texts of Arvorec, Welsh, Breton, Gaulish and
what's more? That way, a Celtic dummy like me could see where Arvorec
stands within the family.

There's only óne thing I'm still missing: sound bytes. Would you be
inclined and equipped to make a recording of a text, so that we can
actually listen to spoken Arvorec?

How did you make the "Early Arvorec Manuscript" image, BTW? I'd like
to do something similar for Wenedyk. Oh, and that fellow on the front
page of "An Byd Arvorec", that's you, right?

Jan

"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed
room with a mosquito."

http://steen.free.fr/







.



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Hi!

Deiniol Jones writes:
>...
> The grammar itself runs to ten pages, and can be found here:
> http://www.arvorec.net/arvorec/arvorec0.htm while the index can be found
> here: http://www.arvorec.net/arvorec/arvorec9.htm
>...

Nice! :-)

Are you planning to ad some remarks about why the bits of grammar work
as they work, e.g. because some Celtic language does it?  I don't know
much about Celtic and it would be nice to read.  (I am currently
extending my Romance conlang's grammar to give footnotes of this
kind, also to keep track myself of my own decisions...)

**Henrik

My apologies if you've already read this elsewhere, but I can't very
well *not* post this to Celticonlang!

It might be of interest to certain persons to know that a fairly
complete Grammar of Arvorec is now available for your viewing pleasure.
It's a completely new revision of the language, with changes to the
verbal system primarily, but also tinkering with the sound-changes has
given a wholly new phonology and different lexicon*. Also, it's the
first time Arvorec syntax has been presented online.

It's been revised now due to a) my increased confidence in my skills as
a conlanger and b) better sources on Proto-Celtic verbs, as the verbal
system has been annoying me for some time. All in all, this revision is
more coherent and internally consistent and likely to be the definitive
revision.

The grammar itself runs to ten pages, and can be found here:
http://www.arvorec.net/arvorec/arvorec0.htm while the index can be found
here: http://www.arvorec.net/arvorec/arvorec9.htm

Happy reading and let me know what you think!

Dan

A brief report can be found at :

http://www.howlsedhes.co.uk/bywnanske/

Some background material, links to web resources etc
to be added over the next few days.

Mongvras


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--- guto rhys <gutorhys@...> wrote:

>   Is this an edition of Bywnans Ke?
>   How can I get a copy?

"Copies of Bywnans Ke will be available ... from Gwynn
ha Du, 4 the Arcade, Fore Street, Liskeard (tel 01579
347373) as well as from the Cornish Language Board's
Publications Officer Jori Ansell, 65 Churchtown,
Gwinear Nr Hayle (tel 01736 850878).  (250ff A4, soft
cover £11 plus postage).

> PS We launched Ke today and despite the unfortunate
> absence of free
> beer, a good time was had by all. Ken appologised
> for the unavoidable
> absence of the author of the work, but agreed to
> sign copies _in lieu_
> . Truely an event of great significance, one might
> even say a Turning
> Point.


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--- Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...> wrote:

> Howlsedhes Services wrote:
>
> | --- Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...> wrote:
> |
> | > How funny! We find the same thing in Biblical
> | > Hebrew!
> | > A (bit simplified) example:
> | > shálach "he sent" > *shálach+ú = shál¤chú "they
> | > sent" > *shál¤chú+ní =
> | > sh¤láchúní "they sent me". ¤ stands for a schwa.
> |
> | You're right! How did I miss seeing that? Must be
> | because Hebrew goes from right to left :-)
> | I always got confused between silent schwa and
> vocalic
> | schwa. I think vowels shorten to [@] (vocalic
> schwa)
> | rather than dropping completely as in OI. Is that
> | right?
>
> Hmm. I never thought about the origin of the vocal
> schwa. But indeed it
> looks like a result of reduction, in contrast to the
> silent schwa that is,
> so to say, phonemic. Cf. the following pair of
> words: ách¤lá "she ate" vs.
> ochlá "her food" (á/o constitute one phoneme, as far
> as I understand)
>
> Rules for vocal vs. silent schwa are easy:
> 1) Schwa under the first consonant of the word is
> always vocal;
> 2) Schwa under a consonant with a strong dagesh is
> always vocal;
> 3) If two consonants next one to another are
> vocalised with schwas, the
> first is silent, the second is vocal;
> 4) If schwa comes after an unstressed syllable, it
> is vocal after a long
> vowel, but silent after a short vowel.
> All other schwas are silent.

Thank you, I'll make a note of that, it's very
helpful.
I suspect that if you compared your "she ate/her food"
example with say, classical arabic, where the stress
is much more even, then the vocalic schwa would
correspond to a vowel, but the silent schwa wouldn't.
I'll have to check that out, but not right now.

Thanks again!

Marconatrix



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Howlsedhes Services wrote:

| --- Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...> wrote:
|
| > How funny! We find the same thing in Biblical
| > Hebrew!
| > A (bit simplified) example:
| > shálach "he sent" > *shálach+ú = shál¤chú "they
| > sent" > *shál¤chú+ní =
| > sh¤láchúní "they sent me". ¤ stands for a schwa.
|
| You're right! How did I miss seeing that? Must be
| because Hebrew goes from right to left :-)
| I always got confused between silent schwa and vocalic
| schwa. I think vowels shorten to [@] (vocalic schwa)
| rather than dropping completely as in OI. Is that
| right?

Hmm. I never thought about the origin of the vocal schwa. But indeed it
looks like a result of reduction, in contrast to the silent schwa that is,
so to say, phonemic. Cf. the following pair of words: ách¤lá "she ate" vs.
ochlá "her food" (á/o constitute one phoneme, as far as I understand)

Rules for vocal vs. silent schwa are easy:
1) Schwa under the first consonant of the word is always vocal;
2) Schwa under a consonant with a strong dagesh is always vocal;
3) If two consonants next one to another are vocalised with schwas, the
first is silent, the second is vocal;
4) If schwa comes after an unstressed syllable, it is vocal after a long
vowel, but silent after a short vowel.
All other schwas are silent.

| Marconatrix

Cheers,
-- Yitzik

--- Keith Gaughan <kmgaughan@...> wrote:

> Aidan Grey wrote:
>
> > I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew -
> Lehmann's book is terrible! There
> > are gaps in the vocab as well, incorrect
> genders, and other tiny bits
> > that add up to make it very difficult to work
> with unless you have
> > someone right there to lead you along.
> >
> > When I was studying Old Irish at Harvard, we
> used two books:
> >
> > Old-Irish Workbook, by EG Quin
> > Old Irish Verbs and Vocabulary, by Antony
> Green
>
> Also very, very much worth getting is Old-Irish
> Paradigms[1] by John
> Strachan. I can't recommend it highly enough.

Yes, a vèry good choice! It comes in two volumes:
one with grammar stuff and one with texts and a
glossary. As I recall!

Padraic.

> K.



manstapurncanar! Horcyasomto! Stat-he sactasawetarams harct-ca!
Ffâtyata-na çerewatyata-na-he! samctan camtar-co yesam.

Wisdom! Hear! Stand up, be quiet and listen to the Gospel! Be quiet
and stop moving about! Peace be with you all...

[Divine Liturgy of St. Thomas, Teleran]
--

Ill Bethisad --
<http://www.bethisad.com>


Come visit The World! --
<http://www.geocities.com/hawessos/>







.

--- Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...> wrote:

> Howlsedhes Services wrote:
>
>
> | [.] After the stress what were alternate vowels
> | in proto OI usually drop out entirely. Move the
> stress
> | therefore, and an entirely different set of vowels
> are
> | dropped (aaaagh!!). [.] If it's any comfort, the
> | same business of alternate vowels dropping is
> found in
> | Potawatomi, or as they call themselves Bodwadme
> (see
> | what I mean).
>
> How funny! We find the same thing in Biblical
> Hebrew!
> A (bit simplified) example:
> shálach "he sent" > *shálach+ú = shál¤chú "they
> sent" > *shál¤chú+ní =
> sh¤láchúní "they sent me". ¤ stands for a schwa.

You're right! How did I miss seeing that? Must be
because Hebrew goes from right to left :-)
I always got confused between silent schwa and vocalic
schwa. I think vowels shorten to [@] (vocalic schwa)
rather than dropping completely as in OI. Is that
right?

Marconatrix



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Aidan Grey wrote:

> I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew - Lehmann's book is terrible! There
> are gaps in the vocab as well, incorrect genders, and other tiny bits
> that add up to make it very difficult to work with unless you have
> someone right there to lead you along.
>
> When I was studying Old Irish at Harvard, we used two books:
>
> Old-Irish Workbook, by EG Quin
> Old Irish Verbs and Vocabulary, by Antony Green

Also very, very much worth getting is Old-Irish Paradigms[1] by John
Strachan. I can't recommend it highly enough.

K.

[1] http://www.ria.ie/shop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?catalogid=84

--- "Ph.D." <phil@...> wrote:

> Marconatrix wrote
> >
> > --- Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > --- "Ph.D." <phil@...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Can someone point me to some introductory
> > > > textbook or discussion of Old Irish? I
> have a
> > > > copy of Thurneysen's "A Grammar of Old
> Irish,"
> > > > but it's not exactly an easy read. In
> particular,
> > > > what are the purposes of the preverbs?
> > >
> > > We used Lehmann's "An Introduction to
> O.Ir." ISBN
> > > 0-87352-288-5
> >
> > Yep, that's probably the nearest thing to a
> "popular
> > introduction" to OI :-)
>
> I appreciate the responses to my questions. I
> looked
> at this book on Amazon, but Andrew Lemmons has
> posted a review of it in which he feels it is
> not very
> useful, especially for someone studying alone
> as I am.
>
> Allow me to quote a sample:
>
> | The grammatical sections that follow the text
> illuminate
> | few or none of the questions that arise from
> the reading
> | passage. Chapter one drops masculine and
> neuter
> | o-stem nouns on the reader in a lump, along
> with a
> | strong verb (berid), with no description of
> what's going
> | on. Why is the nominative of son 'mac,' and
> the genitive
> | 'mic?' What else declines like 'mac'? What
> words in the
> | passage are o-stems? How do I USE these
> paradigms?
> | No answers are given, not even in the
> glossary. Lehmann
> | leaves the reader to guess, blindly memorize,
> and move
> | on to another difficult passage of text. This
> process
> | continues for 20 chapters until, at length,
> little about Old
> | Irish has been communicated by the author,
> even less
> | digested by the reader.

Well, to be honest, Lehmann is nòt a beginners
book! It presumes that you know what things like
nominative and genitive are and how to use
paradigms.

That said, I dó think their grammar presentation
is scattery. Like I said before, I like paradigms
all in place. A detailed explanation of what's
going on would also be nice.

That also said, I didn't find the process
particularly hard to "digest" when I went through
it, and found it just helpful enough to write a
very small piece of original (and probably not so
good) OIr.

> Ph. D.

Padraic.



manstapurncanar! Horcyasomto! Stat-he sactasawetarams harct-ca!
Ffâtyata-na çerewatyata-na-he! samctan camtar-co yesam.

Wisdom! Hear! Stand up, be quiet and listen to the Gospel! Be quiet
and stop moving about! Peace be with you all...

[Divine Liturgy of St. Thomas, Teleran]
--

Ill Bethisad --
<http://www.bethisad.com>


Come visit The World! --
<http://www.geocities.com/hawessos/>







.

Howlsedhes Services wrote:


| [.] After the stress what were alternate vowels
| in proto OI usually drop out entirely. Move the stress
| therefore, and an entirely different set of vowels are
| dropped (aaaagh!!). [.] If it's any comfort, the
| same business of alternate vowels dropping is found in
| Potawatomi, or as they call themselves Bodwadme (see
| what I mean).

How funny! We find the same thing in Biblical Hebrew!
A (bit simplified) example:
shálach "he sent" > *shálach+ú = shál¤chú "they sent" > *shál¤chú+ní =
sh¤láchúní "they sent me". ¤ stands for a schwa.

-- Yitzik

> > We used Lehmann's "An Introduction to O.Ir." ISBN
> > 0-87352-288-5
>
> Yep, that's probably the nearest thing to a "popular
> introduction" to OI :-)

I appreciate the responses to my questions. I looked
at this book on Amazon, but Andrew Lemmons has
posted a review of it in which he feels it is not very
useful, especially for someone studying alone as I am.

Marconatrix wrote
>
> --- Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> wrote:
>
> > --- "Ph.D." <phil@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Can someone point me to some introductory
> > > textbook or discussion of Old Irish? I have a
> > > copy of Thurneysen's "A Grammar of Old Irish,"
> > > but it's not exactly an easy read. In particular,
> > > what are the purposes of the preverbs?
> >
> > We used Lehmann's "An Introduction to O.Ir." ISBN
> > 0-87352-288-5
>
> Yep, that's probably the nearest thing to a "popular
> introduction" to OI :-)

I appreciate the responses to my questions. I looked
at this book on Amazon, but Andrew Lemmons has
posted a review of it in which he feels it is not very
useful, especially for someone studying alone as I am.

Allow me to quote a sample:

| The grammatical sections that follow the text illuminate
| few or none of the questions that arise from the reading
| passage. Chapter one drops masculine and neuter
| o-stem nouns on the reader in a lump, along with a
| strong verb (berid), with no description of what's going
| on. Why is the nominative of son 'mac,' and the genitive
| 'mic?' What else declines like 'mac'? What words in the
| passage are o-stems? How do I USE these paradigms?
| No answers are given, not even in the glossary. Lehmann
| leaves the reader to guess, blindly memorize, and move
| on to another difficult passage of text. This process
| continues for 20 chapters until, at length, little about Old
| Irish has been communicated by the author, even less
| digested by the reader.


> > It's been a while... Preverbs serve a similar
> > function in verbs as adpositions do in nouns.
> > Usually, they're the same entities. As far as I
> > can tell,
>
> See Thurn. (s)819 - For each preposition the preverbal
> usage is listed under "B". Sometimes they're
> formatives like Latin pro- re- trans- ex- etc. but
> they can also have grammatical functions like the
> _no-_ before the imperfect, other times they're just
> there to prop up infixed pronouns. The negative and
> interrogative particles probably count as preverbs in
> OI too.
>
> > they serve two main functions. One is
> > that they support infixed pronouns: so you'd have
> > a verbal complex like
> > preverb+pronoun+verbal.root+ending; the other is
> > that they complicate matters of looking up words
> > in the lexicon entirely. You get verbs that are
> > accented on the verb root (like do-rat) and a
> > related verb that's accented on the preverb (like
> > tarat).
>
> OI had VERY strong initial stress, all things being
> equal. Add a preverb and the stress stays put. Add a
> second preverb however and the stress moves forward
> (only one preverb is tolerated to stand before the
> stress). After the stress what were alternate vowels
> in proto OI usually drop out entirely. Move the stress
> therefore, and an entirely different set of vowels are
> dropped (aaaagh!!). And then as Padraic points out, in
> the related verbal noun, the stress is _always_ on the
> first syll, no matter how many preverbs. The landscape
> of the OI verb resembles a city about a year or two
> after a major earthquake! If it's any comfort, the
> same business of alternate vowels dropping is found in
> Potawatomi, or as they call themselves Bodwadme (see
> what I mean).

Interesting. I read some on Potawatomi last year, so I
understand what you're saying about the dropping of
vowels.


> I'll try and help you if I can, although my OI is
> pretty patchy :-)
>
> Marconatrix

Thanks,
Ph. D.