Buddhism_101 : Messages : 788-818 of 13545

#789 From: "David" <david_dylan2003@...>
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 6:19 am
Subject: New to group and buddhism david_dylan2003
Send Email

Hello,

My name is David and I live in Victoria Australia.
I have been made aware of Buddhism through work collegues
and am very intereted in finding out more.

Could you please answer the following for me;

What is the Tibetin Buddhist standing on homosexuality?\
  - I am gay and have been in a monogomous loving relationship
for 5 years.

What literature etc should I read to learn more?

Where is a good starting point?

All answers greatly appriciated.

Happy new year.
Kindest regards,
David.

#790 From: "Raven" <ravennd@...>
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 10:22 am
Subject: Hello ravendelport
Send Email

My name is Raven and I live in South Africa.  I am new to Buddhism
and would appreciate any help.  I have read several lessons off of
the internet and I have a big problem with meditating.  I just can't
seem to quiet my mind.  I start and then everything begins to invade
my thoughts.  I really need a lot of help in this department.
Raven
Delport

#791 From: "Lotta" <lotta@...>
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 9:54 pm
Subject: To Raven and David finn_vegan
Send Email

Happy new year everyone!

On my behalf, Warm Welcome both Raven and David!

I am also quite new to this group and buddhism, but interested I
have been more than ten years. I am from Finland, I'm  26 years old
vegan woman.

Raven, I also have troubles with meditating, actually trouble to
make it a important part of my day, and folks here have gave me good
advise, I haven't got opportunity to thank them yet :)
If I understand correctly, it is very typical to beginner to not to
be able to ease ones mind.  You'll have to learn to work WITH your
mind, not against it. When your mind wants to lead you'll have to
gently tell your mind that YOU  are the boss and push that thought
away. When you don't take stress but keep on doing this, adventually
you find out that you can spend more and more minutes in thoughtless
state. You'll have to give yourself and your mind enough time to get
used to this new practice... Good luck!

David, I don't know for sure, but at least in this group people will
accept you, just few days ago that was a topic. From the archive you
can find many good net sites. Good luck to you too :)

Lotta



****************

From:   "Raven" <ravennd@m...>
Date:  Sun Jan 4, 2004  12:22 pm
Subject:  Hello



My name is Raven and I live in South Africa. I am new to Buddhism
and would appreciate any help. I have read several lessons off of
the internet and I have a big problem with meditating. I just can't
seem to quiet my mind. I start and then everything begins to invade
my thoughts. I really need a lot of help in this department.
Raven
Delport

********************

From:   "David" <david_dylan2003@y...>
Date:  Sun Jan 4, 2004  8:19 am
Subject:  New to group and buddhism



Hello,

My name is David and I live in Victoria Australia.
I have been made aware of Buddhism through work collegues
and am very intereted in finding out more.

Could you please answer the following for me;

What is the Tibetin Buddhist standing on homosexuality?\
- I am gay and have been in a monogomous loving relationship
for 5 years.

What literature etc should I read to learn more?

Where is a good starting point?

All answers greatly appriciated.

Happy new year.
Kindest regards,
David.

#792 From: Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@...>
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 12:09 am
Subject: introduction dougyelmen
Send Email

hello, my name is doug. i live near portland, OR.
i have been meditating for the last year and a half.
i spent a lot of time in asia in the service in the
late sixties. i have been interested in buddhism
since then, but only have become sort of a
catholic-buddhist in the last 2 years.
for reading sources i enjoy thich nhat hanh,

among others. i am reading
the tibetan book of living and dying, and some

others right now.

here is something from meditation tip by osho

Meditation Tip - Osho - January 05, 2004 ---------------------------------------------------------------- While meditating... Go on watching. Let thoughts come and go -- wherever they want to go. Nothing is wrong! Don't try to manipulate and don't try to direct. Let thoughts move in total freedom. And then bigger intervals will be coming. You will be blessed with small satoris.

Osho

i just do my best. figure i will persevere better that way.

peace,

doug

--

Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough.
There is no special path which is true.
Shunryu Suzuki
Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page
http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html
Doug Yelmen's Art Site
http://www.PostModernArt.com

Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)

#793 From: "Raven" <ravennd@...>
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 6:54 am
Subject: Thank you ravendelport
Send Email

Thanks for the help.  I will keep working on myself:).

Reply | Messages in this Topic (5)

#794 From: "monkette1" <monkette1@...>
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 12:18 pm
Subject: Re: Hello monkette1
Send Email

Greetings Dear Raven and Sangha,

It may help to simply focus on the breath, and don't worry about doing anything
with
your mind when you are meditating, just let the thoughts flow and observe, don't
try
to stop or control them.  Some say to count the breath to 10 and start over
again.

Another suggestion is to meditate for short periods - 10 to 15 minutes.  From my
experience and what I have been taught, even experienced meditators get the most
benefit from meditating no more than about 45 minutes. There are various takes
on
this.

Are you having any problems with posture or method of sitting?

Take care, may you be well and happy

Peace in the dharma,
Diana
--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote:
> My name is Raven and I live in South Africa.  I am new to Buddhism
> and would appreciate any help.  I have read several lessons off of
> the internet and I have a big problem with meditating.  I just can't
> seem to quiet my mind.  I start and then everything begins to invade
> my thoughts.  I really need a lot of help in this department.
> Raven
> Delport

#795 From: "Raven" <ravennd@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 4:59 am
Subject: Re: Hello ravendelport
Send Email

Thanks for the help and yes, I can use all the help I can get.  I
have no one to teach me, I have a computer for a teacher.  There is
no one close to me and I have no transport.  Is there a certain way
to sit or stand?
Raven




--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "monkette1" <monkette1@y...>
wrote:
> Greetings Dear Raven and Sangha,
>
> It may help to simply focus on the breath, and don't worry about
doing anything with
> your mind when you are meditating, just let the thoughts flow and
observe, don't try
> to stop or control them.  Some say to count the breath to 10 and
start over again.
>
> Another suggestion is to meditate for short periods - 10 to 15
minutes.  From my
> experience and what I have been taught, even experienced meditators
get the most
> benefit from meditating no more than about 45 minutes. There are
various takes on
> this.
>
> Are you having any problems with posture or method of sitting?
>
> Take care, may you be well and happy
>
> Peace in the dharma,
> Diana
> --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote:
> > My name is Raven and I live in South Africa.  I am new to
Buddhism
> > and would appreciate any help.  I have read several lessons off
of
> > the internet and I have a big problem with meditating.  I just
can't
> > seem to quiet my mind.  I start and then everything begins to
invade
> > my thoughts.  I really need a lot of help in this department.
> > Raven
> > Delport

#796 From: "Lotta" <lotta@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 11:12 am
Subject: Re: Hello finn_vegan
Send Email

I have the same situation with you, no-one to teach, no centers
nearby! I have read some and search the net, but francly I don't
have very much time to put in this, I am a student of literature, so
I have plenty to read anyway :) But we are here to support each
other, right?

Many western people find it hard to sit in a lotus position or even
ordinary position (don't know the name in english...). They/we are
simply not used to sit on the floor, our back muscles are usually
too week. It has said that the second best thing would be sitting
your back against the wall to keep your posture strait. Also you can
sit in a chair; I guess anything is possible as long as you feel
comfortable, even lying in your bed (do not sleep though, lol!)

In my opinion aiming to 15 minutes is too much in the beginning, you
can start from just minutes; again, what ever feels comfortable.

Lotta

--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote:

> Thanks for the help and yes, I can use all the help I can get.  I
> have no one to teach me, I have a computer for a teacher.  There
is
> no one close to me and I have no transport.  Is there a certain
way
> to sit or stand?
> Raven
>
>
>
>
> --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "monkette1" <monkette1@y...>
> wrote:
> > Greetings Dear Raven and Sangha,
> >
> > It may help to simply focus on the breath, and don't worry about
> doing anything with
> > your mind when you are meditating, just let the thoughts flow
and
> observe, don't try
> > to stop or control them.  Some say to count the breath to 10 and
> start over again.
> >
> > Another suggestion is to meditate for short periods - 10 to 15
> minutes.  From my
> > experience and what I have been taught, even experienced
meditators
> get the most
> > benefit from meditating no more than about 45 minutes. There are
> various takes on
> > this.
> >
> > Are you having any problems with posture or method of sitting?
> >
> > Take care, may you be well and happy
> >
> > Peace in the dharma,
> > Diana
> > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...>
wrote:
> > > My name is Raven and I live in South Africa.  I am new to
> Buddhism
> > > and would appreciate any help.  I have read several lessons
off
> of
> > > the internet and I have a big problem with meditating.  I just
> can't
> > > seem to quiet my mind.  I start and then everything begins to
> invade
> > > my thoughts.  I really need a lot of help in this department.
> > > Raven
> > > Delport

http://www.corrysrockart.com
http://www.corrystuart.com
http://www.corrystuart.net
http://www.earthmelodies.com
http://www.stellanovastudio.com

#797 From: "Corry" <corry@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 12:18 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hello rajah3166
Send Email

Hi there

I too am new to this list. Although meditation does not present a problem for me, since I have done this for many many years, I understand the difficulties it can present when one just starts out. Frankly I do not advocate positions that become irritating after a while. At first perhaps one can just plainly sit in a relaxed position? Making sure that no clothing is too tight or cumbersome. Learning to empty the mind of thoughts is hard enough in the beginning let alone feeling uncomfortable. The suggestion of lying on top of your bed is not wrong. I do this often. It is the empty mind that one achieves that is important. After some practice it becomes easier..... I place my thoughts in a balloon and let them float away.... No thought is given to what the thought was all about...... just in and out.... eventually one will be able to just be STILL. Like everything else in life practice makes perfect and most of us are in the practise mode anyway :)

We try to follow the Budhist way as much as one can in western society..... and for us that is quite simple since we live in the country away from the big and bustling cities. Anyway this is my two cents on meditation

namaste

corry

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotta

To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 6:12 AM

Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Hello

I have the same situation with you, no-one to teach, no centers nearby! I have read some and search the net, but francly I don't have very much time to put in this, I am a student of literature, so I have plenty to read anyway :) But we are here to support each other, right? Many western people find it hard to sit in a lotus position or even ordinary position (don't know the name in english...). They/we are simply not used to sit on the floor, our back muscles are usually too week. It has said that the second best thing would be sitting your back against the wall to keep your posture strait. Also you can sit in a chair; I guess anything is possible as long as you feel comfortable, even lying in your bed (do not sleep though, lol!) In my opinion aiming to 15 minutes is too much in the beginning, you can start from just minutes; again, what ever feels comfortable. Lotta --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote: > Thanks for the help and yes, I can use all the help I can get. I > have no one to teach me, I have a computer for a teacher. There is > no one close to me and I have no transport. Is there a certain way > to sit or stand? > Raven > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "monkette1" <monkette1@y...> > wrote: > > Greetings Dear Raven and Sangha, > > > > It may help to simply focus on the breath, and don't worry about > doing anything with > > your mind when you are meditating, just let the thoughts flow and > observe, don't try > > to stop or control them. Some say to count the breath to 10 and > start over again. > > > > Another suggestion is to meditate for short periods - 10 to 15 > minutes. From my > > experience and what I have been taught, even experienced meditators > get the most > > benefit from meditating no more than about 45 minutes. There are > various takes on > > this. > > > > Are you having any problems with posture or method of sitting? > > > > Take care, may you be well and happy > > > > Peace in the dharma, > > Diana > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote: > > > My name is Raven and I live in South Africa. I am new to > Buddhism > > > and would appreciate any help. I have read several lessons off > of > > > the internet and I have a big problem with meditating. I just > can't > > > seem to quiet my mind. I start and then everything begins to > invade > > > my thoughts. I really need a lot of help in this department. > > > Raven > > > Delport
Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

#798 From: "Raven" <ravennd@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 12:54 pm
Subject: meditation ravendelport
Send Email

Thanks to everyone who has helped me on this subject.  No matter how
much I read, it always helps to actually talk to someone.  I have
been practicing a little at a time.
Raven

Reply | Messages in this Topic (8)

#799 From: Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 5:46 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hello dougyelmen
Send Email

raven

that is pretty much what i have been taught, read, etc.

a book i read aa couple of years ago that helped me a

lot is ram dass' journey of awakening: a meditator's

guidebook. i learned some chants from him. plus,

ram dass is so easy going, and articulate, it is

a pleasure. also, one can buy tapes by ram dass,

jack kornfield, john novak (?), and many others.

i sit in a chair, and at 56 y/o, i don't ever expect

to sit in the lotus position. and that is no big

deal. be comfortable. if you are not comfortable,

and you don't have fun you may quite. also, test

and see if it is not helpful. like science. i am calmer,

less depressed (i am diagnosed with maj. depression

and ptsd), and my outlook is better. that is due to

the chanting/meditation i have been practicing.

doug

I have the same situation with you, no-one to teach, no centers nearby! I have read some and search the net, but francly I don't have very much time to put in this, I am a student of literature, so I have plenty to read anyway :) But we are here to support each other, right? Many western people find it hard to sit in a lotus position or even ordinary position (don't know the name in english...). They/we are simply not used to sit on the floor, our back muscles are usually too week. It has said that the second best thing would be sitting your back against the wall to keep your posture strait. Also you can sit in a chair; I guess anything is possible as long as you feel comfortable, even lying in your bed (do not sleep though, lol!) In my opinion aiming to 15 minutes is too much in the beginning, you can start from just minutes; again, what ever feels comfortable. Lotta --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote: > Thanks for the help and yes, I can use all the help I can get. I > have no one to teach me, I have a computer for a teacher. There is > no one close to me and I have no transport. Is there a certain way > to sit or stand? > Raven > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "monkette1" <monkette1@y...> > wrote: > > Greetings Dear Raven and Sangha, > > > > It may help to simply focus on the breath, and don't worry about > doing anything with > > your mind when you are meditating, just let the thoughts flow and > observe, don't try > > to stop or control them. Some say to count the breath to 10 and > start over again. > > > > Another suggestion is to meditate for short periods - 10 to 15 > minutes. From my > > experience and what I have been taught, even experienced meditators > get the most > > benefit from meditating no more than about 45 minutes. There are > various takes on > > this. > > > > Are you having any problems with posture or method of sitting? > > > > Take care, may you be well and happy > > > > Peace in the dharma, > > Diana > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote: > > > My name is Raven and I live in South Africa. I am new to > Buddhism > > > and would appreciate any help. I have read several lessons off > of > > > the internet and I have a big problem with meditating. I just > can't > > > seem to quiet my mind. I start and then everything begins to > invade > > > my thoughts. I really need a lot of help in this department. > > > Raven > > > Delport

Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--

Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough. There is no special path which is true. Shunryu Suzuki

Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page
http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html
Doug Yelmen's Art Site
http://www.PostModernArt.com

#800 From: "Lotta" <lotta@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 7:35 pm
Subject: Re: Hello finn_vegan
Send Email

This post was to Raven, but have to say few words:
Am I glad to hear that your depression has gotten better! I too have
(major) depression! I wish meditation would help me too! Wow, that
is one good motivator for me :) Thank you Doug for sharing this!

Lotta



--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@e...>
wrote:
>
>
> raven
>
> that is pretty much what i have been taught, read, etc.
> a book i read aa couple of years ago that helped me a
> lot is ram dass' journey of awakening: a meditator's
> guidebook. i learned some chants from him. plus,
> ram dass is so easy going, and articulate, it is
> a pleasure. also, one can buy tapes by ram dass,
> jack kornfield, john novak (?), and many others.
> i sit in a chair, and at 56 y/o, i don't ever expect
> to sit in the lotus position. and that is no big
> deal. be comfortable. if you are not comfortable,
> and you don't have fun you may quite. also, test
> and see if it is not helpful. like science. i am calmer,
> less depressed (i am diagnosed with maj. depression
> and ptsd), and my outlook is better. that is due to
> the chanting/meditation i have been practicing.
> doug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >I have the same situation with you, no-one to teach, no centers
> >nearby! I have read some and search the net, but francly I don't
> >have very much time to put in this, I am a student of literature,
so
> >I have plenty to read anyway :) But we are here to support each
> >other, right?
> >
> >Many western people find it hard to sit in a lotus position or
even
> >ordinary position (don't know the name in english...). They/we are
> >simply not used to sit on the floor, our back muscles are usually
> >too week. It has said that the second best thing would be sitting
> >your back against the wall to keep your posture strait. Also you
can
> >sit in a chair; I guess anything is possible as long as you feel
> >comfortable, even lying in your bed (do not sleep though, lol!)
> >
> >In my opinion aiming to 15 minutes is too much in the beginning,
you
> >can start from just minutes; again, what ever feels comfortable.
> >
> >Lotta
> >
> >
> >--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote:
> >
> >>  Thanks for the help and yes, I can use all the help I can
get.  I
> >>  have no one to teach me, I have a computer for a teacher.
There
> >is
> >>  no one close to me and I have no transport.  Is there a certain
> >way
> >>  to sit or stand?
> >>  Raven
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "monkette1"
<monkette1@y...>
> >>  wrote:
> >>  > Greetings Dear Raven and Sangha,
> >>  >
> >>  > It may help to simply focus on the breath, and don't worry
about
> >>  doing anything with
> >>  > your mind when you are meditating, just let the thoughts flow
> >and
> >>  observe, don't try
> >>  > to stop or control them.  Some say to count the breath to 10
and
> >>  start over again.
> >>  >
> >>  > Another suggestion is to meditate for short periods - 10 to
15
> >>  minutes.  From my
> >>  > experience and what I have been taught, even experienced
> >meditators
> >>  get the most
> >>  > benefit from meditating no more than about 45 minutes. There
are
> >>  various takes on
> >>  > this.
> >>  >
> >>  > Are you having any problems with posture or method of
sitting?
> >>  >
> >>  > Take care, may you be well and happy
> >>  >
> >>  > Peace in the dharma,
> >>  > Diana
> >>  > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...>
> >wrote:
> >>  > > My name is Raven and I live in South Africa.  I am new to
> >>  Buddhism
> >>  > > and would appreciate any help.  I have read several lessons
> >off
> >>  of
> >>  > > the internet and I have a big problem with meditating.  I
just
> >>  can't
> >>  > > seem to quiet my mind.  I start and then everything begins
to
> >>  invade
> >>  > > my thoughts.  I really need a lot of help in this
department.
> >>  > > Raven
> >>  > > Delport
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/>http://groups.yahoo.com
/group/Buddhism_101/
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> ><mailto:Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe>Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> --
> Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough.
> There is no special path which is true.
> Shunryu Suzuki
> Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page
> http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html
> Doug Yelmen's Art Site
> http://www.PostModernArt.com

#801 From: Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 8:13 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hello dougyelmen
Send Email

had i known i would have said raven AND lotta. '-)

so, let me address this one step further.

i have been on meds since 1993.

i had been meditating 6 or more months when

i was switched from remeron and other meds

to wellbutrin in nov 2003. i felt an immediate lift of the

despair i had been in for 2+ years.

now, one person will say it is the wellbutrin,

and another will say it is the meditating,

and i say it is both. the fact, to me, is

meditation cleans house in the attic,

so to speak, but also in the heart.

i speak freely of this in the hopes it

will encourage, help, etc. another

person with or without diagnoses.

peace,

doug

This post was to Raven, but have to say few words: Am I glad to hear that your depression has gotten better! I too have (major) depression! I wish meditation would help me too! Wow, that is one good motivator for me :) Thank you Doug for sharing this! Lotta --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@e...> wrote: > > > raven > > that is pretty much what i have been taught, read, etc. > a book i read aa couple of years ago that helped me a > lot is ram dass' journey of awakening: a meditator's > guidebook. i learned some chants from him. plus, > ram dass is so easy going, and articulate, it is > a pleasure. also, one can buy tapes by ram dass, > jack kornfield, john novak (?), and many others. > i sit in a chair, and at 56 y/o, i don't ever expect > to sit in the lotus position. and that is no big > deal. be comfortable. if you are not comfortable, > and you don't have fun you may quite. also, test > and see if it is not helpful. like science. i am calmer, > less depressed (i am diagnosed with maj. depression > and ptsd), and my outlook is better. that is due to > the chanting/meditation i have been practicing. > doug > > > > > > > > > > >I have the same situation with you, no-one to teach, no centers > >nearby! I have read some and search the net, but francly I don't > >have very much time to put in this, I am a student of literature, so > >I have plenty to read anyway :) But we are here to support each > >other, right? > > > >Many western people find it hard to sit in a lotus position or even > >ordinary position (don't know the name in english...). They/we are > >simply not used to sit on the floor, our back muscles are usually > >too week. It has said that the second best thing would be sitting > >your back against the wall to keep your posture strait. Also you can > >sit in a chair; I guess anything is possible as long as you feel > >comfortable, even lying in your bed (do not sleep though, lol!) > > > >In my opinion aiming to 15 minutes is too much in the beginning, you > >can start from just minutes; again, what ever feels comfortable. > > > >Lotta > > > > > >--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote: > > > >> Thanks for the help and yes, I can use all the help I can get. I > >> have no one to teach me, I have a computer for a teacher. There > >is > >> no one close to me and I have no transport. Is there a certain > >way > >> to sit or stand? > >> Raven > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "monkette1" <monkette1@y...> > >> wrote: > >> > Greetings Dear Raven and Sangha, > >> > > >> > It may help to simply focus on the breath, and don't worry about > >> doing anything with > >> > your mind when you are meditating, just let the thoughts flow > >and > >> observe, don't try > >> > to stop or control them. Some say to count the breath to 10 and > >> start over again. > >> > > >> > Another suggestion is to meditate for short periods - 10 to 15 > >> minutes. From my > >> > experience and what I have been taught, even experienced > >meditators > >> get the most > >> > benefit from meditating no more than about 45 minutes. There are > >> various takes on > >> > this. > >> > > >> > Are you having any problems with posture or method of sitting? > >> > > >> > Take care, may you be well and happy

> >> > > >> > Peace in the dharma, > >> > Diana > >> > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> > >wrote: > >> > > My name is Raven and I live in South Africa. I am new to > >> Buddhism > >> > > and would appreciate any help. I have read several lessons > >off > >> of > >> > > the internet and I have a big problem with meditating. I just > >> can't > >> > > seem to quiet my mind. I start and then everything begins to > >> invade > >> > > my thoughts. I really need a lot of help in this department. > >> > > Raven > >> > > Delport > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >To visit your group on the web, go to: > ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/ > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > ><mailto:Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? subject=Unsubscribe>Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > -- > Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough. > There is no special path which is true. > Shunryu Suzuki > Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page > http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html> Doug Yelmen's Art Site > http://www.PostModernArt.com

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--

Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough. There is no special path which is true. Shunryu Suzuki

Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page
http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html
Doug Yelmen's Art Site
http://www.PostModernArt.com

#803 From: Lotta <lode77@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 9:00 pm
Subject: Re: Questions (I sent the original before holidays) finn_vegan
Send Email

Tashi Deleg!

First of all Happy New Year to All and thanks for everyone equally who answered to my questions!

Snoopy: I liked you ideas of praying!

Kevin: I must say I thought that all buddhists would be at least vegetarians! Actually when I stopped eating all kind of meat and eggs almost ten years ago, becoming a good buddhist was one of my motivators ( a vegan I have been some three years)! And now I hear that that some even eat meat! Shock!!! How can one respect ALL life and creatures, and at the same time be part of this horrible animal abuse that is going on in the world?

And what comes to those tantric munks, I think the not killing animals by themselves is no exuse nor make it better. They still got blood in their hands. And what it comes to dairy and eggs; you bet their production causes "extra suffering", as you put it...

The way you split buddhism in two when answering my second question about praying, is good idea. I thought about it and I must say that the philosophical side appeals to me the most atleast at the moment. This sentence is just for me: Peace comes more from letting go of things. Realizing that what you thought was
important really isn't important and isn't worth getting stressed over.

I am one of those who gets stressed over everything imaginable!

And this last one, about meditating, is very good answer! (I already passed it over to Raven, if you noticed :) ) Thank you!

Sally: Thank you for your advise "read all you can, listen to others and form your own view." I think it is very wise one for a western person. I want to have quality in my life not to began a nun :) I am sorry to hear about your illness, but being positive helps, it has showed by several studies!

Ani Lak: Western buddhism sounds interesting, exept that animal part. The one who has invented it, must own a factory farm or a slaughterhouse! Ridicilous! Do you know how animals are treated these days? Guess not.

About praying: No I do not want to pray god or Jesus because I don't believe in them. I was just telling something about my personal history to clarify my questions.

Actually I have collected so much new ideas and thougts, and given this a lot of time... I think I don't want to pray at all. I have managed more than ten years without it anyway :) I am sure that meditation, when I have practiced it long enough to feel the difference, gives me the inner peace I am looking for. I believe we all have evrything we need (to know and grow) inside of us.

Thank you for this exellent concentration exercise,I will try it out!

Lotta

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#804 From: "Lotta" <lode77@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 9:05 pm
Subject: Re: Hello finn_vegan
Send Email

I have also been depressed several years; am on medication, and it
helps a bit but not completely. I more or less feel numb. Now I am
obviosly getting better (spring is always good time) because I have
more energy than I've had in months! Again, good to know you are
feeling positive and getting well!

Lotta


-- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@e...>
wrote:

> had i known i would have said raven AND lotta. '-)
> so, let me address this one step further.
> i have been on meds since 1993.
> i had been meditating 6 or more months when
> i was switched from remeron and other meds
> to wellbutrin in nov 2003. i felt an immediate lift of the
> despair i had been in for 2+ years.
> now, one person will say it is the wellbutrin,
> and another will say it is the meditating,
> and i say it is both. the fact, to me, is
> meditation cleans house in the attic,
> so to speak, but also in the heart.
>
> i speak freely of this in the hopes it
> will encourage, help, etc. another
> person with or without diagnoses.
>
> peace,
>
> doug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >This post was to Raven, but have to say few words:
> >Am I glad to hear that your depression has gotten better! I too
have
> >(major) depression! I wish meditation would help me too! Wow, that
> >is one good motivator for me :) Thank you Doug for sharing this!
> >
> >Lotta
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@e...>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>  raven
> >>
> >>  that is pretty much what i have been taught, read, etc.
> >>  a book i read aa couple of years ago that helped me a
> >>  lot is ram dass' journey of awakening: a meditator's
> >>  guidebook. i learned some chants from him. plus,
> >>  ram dass is so easy going, and articulate, it is
> >>  a pleasure. also, one can buy tapes by ram dass,
> >>  jack kornfield, john novak (?), and many others.
> >>  i sit in a chair, and at 56 y/o, i don't ever expect
> >>  to sit in the lotus position. and that is no big
> >>  deal. be comfortable. if you are not comfortable,
> >>  and you don't have fun you may quite. also, test
> >>  and see if it is not helpful. like science. i am calmer,
> >>  less depressed (i am diagnosed with maj. depression
> >>  and ptsd), and my outlook is better. that is due to
> >>  the chanting/meditation i have been practicing.
> >>  doug
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  >I have the same situation with you, no-one to teach, no
centers
> >>  >nearby! I have read some and search the net, but francly I
don't
> >>  >have very much time to put in this, I am a student of
literature,
> >so
> >>  >I have plenty to read anyway :) But we are here to support
each
> >>  >other, right?
> >>  >
> >>  >Many western people find it hard to sit in a lotus position or
> >even
> >>  >ordinary position (don't know the name in english...).
They/we are
> >>  >simply not used to sit on the floor, our back muscles are
usually
> >>  >too week. It has said that the second best thing would be
sitting
> >>  >your back against the wall to keep your posture strait. Also
you
> >can
> >>  >sit in a chair; I guess anything is possible as long as you
feel
> >>  >comfortable, even lying in your bed (do not sleep though,
lol!)
> >>  >
> >>  >In my opinion aiming to 15 minutes is too much in the
beginning,
> >you
> >>  >can start from just minutes; again, what ever feels
comfortable.
> >>  >
> >>  >Lotta
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...>
wrote:
> >>  >
> >>  >>  Thanks for the help and yes, I can use all the help I can
> >get.  I
> >>  >>  have no one to teach me, I have a computer for a teacher.
> >There
> >>  >is
> >>  >>  no one close to me and I have no transport.  Is there a
certain
> >>  >way
> >>  >>  to sit or stand?
> >>  >>  Raven
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "monkette1"
> ><monkette1@y...>
> >>  >>  wrote:
> >>  >>  > Greetings Dear Raven and Sangha,
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  > It may help to simply focus on the breath, and don't
worry
> >about
> >>  >>  doing anything with
> >>  >>  > your mind when you are meditating, just let the thoughts
flow
> >>  >and
> >>  >>  observe, don't try
> >>  >>  > to stop or control them.  Some say to count the breath
to 10
> >and
> >>  >>  start over again.
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  > Another suggestion is to meditate for short periods - 10
to
> >15
> >>  >>  minutes.  From my
> >>  >>  > experience and what I have been taught, even experienced
> >>  >meditators
> >>  >>  get the most
> >>  >>  > benefit from meditating no more than about 45 minutes.
There
> >are
> >>  >>  various takes on
> >>  >>  > this.
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  > Are you having any problems with posture or method of
> >sitting?
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  > Take care, may you be well and happy
> >  > >>  >
> >>  >>  > Peace in the dharma,
> >>  >>  > Diana
> >>  >>  > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven"
<ravennd@m...>
> >>  >wrote:
> >>  >>  > > My name is Raven and I live in South Africa.  I am new
to
> >>  >>  Buddhism
> >>  >>  > > and would appreciate any help.  I have read several
lessons
> >>  >off
> >>  >>  of
> >>  >>  > > the internet and I have a big problem with
meditating.  I
> >just
> >>  >>  can't
> >>  >>  > > seem to quiet my mind.  I start and then everything
begins
> >to
> >>  >>  invade
> >>  >>  > > my thoughts.  I really need a lot of help in this
> >department.
> >>  >>  > > Raven
> >>  >>  > > Delport
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>  >
> >>  >To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >>
>
>><<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/>http://groups.yahoo.c
om/group/Buddhism_101/><http://groups.yahoo.com>http://groups.yahoo.c
om
> >/group/Buddhism_101/
> >>  >
> >>  >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>  ><mailto:Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> >subject=Unsubscribe>Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>  >
> >>  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> >>
><<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms
/>Yahoo!
> >>Terms of Service.
> >>
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough.
> >>  There is no special path which is true.
> >>  Shunryu Suzuki
> >>  Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page
> >>
>
>><http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html>http://home.ear
thlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html
> >>  Doug Yelmen's Art Site
> >>  <http://www.PostModernArt.com>http://www.PostModernArt.com
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/>http://groups.yahoo.com
/group/Buddhism_101/
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> ><mailto:Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe>Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> --
> Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough.
> There is no special path which is true.
> Shunryu Suzuki
> Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page
> http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html
> Doug Yelmen's Art Site
> http://www.PostModernArt.com

#805 From: Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 9:35 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hello dougyelmen
Send Email

"positive and well" are over-rated.

'-)

no med works completely for me.

that is why the docs tell us to exercise and diet.

i don't quite think such disorders are reducible

to brain chemistry or genetics.

meditation works on a deeper level, i think.

numbness is part of ptsd. but, many people

have told me the meds make them numb.

thanks, lotta

doug

I have also been depressed several years; am on medication, and it helps a bit but not completely. I more or less feel numb. Now I am obviosly getting better (spring is always good time) because I have more energy than I've had in months! Again, good to know you are feeling positive and getting well! Lotta -- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@e...> wrote: > had i known i would have said raven AND lotta. '-) > so, let me address this one step further. > i have been on meds since 1993. > i had been meditating 6 or more months when > i was switched from remeron and other meds > to wellbutrin in nov 2003. i felt an immediate lift of the > despair i had been in for 2+ years. > now, one person will say it is the wellbutrin, > and another will say it is the meditating, > and i say it is both. the fact, to me, is > meditation cleans house in the attic, > so to speak, but also in the heart. > > i speak freely of this in the hopes it > will encourage, help, etc. another > person with or without diagnoses. > > peace, > > doug > > > > > > > > >This post was to Raven, but have to say few words: > >Am I glad to hear that your depression has gotten better! I too have > >(major) depression! I wish meditation would help me too! Wow, that > >is one good motivator for me :) Thank you Doug for sharing this! > > > >Lotta > > > > > > > >--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@e...> > >wrote: > >> > >> > >> raven > >> > >> that is pretty much what i have been taught, read, etc. > >> a book i read aa couple of years ago that helped me a > >> lot is ram dass' journey of awakening: a meditator's > >> guidebook. i learned some chants from him. plus, > >> ram dass is so easy going, and articulate, it is > >> a pleasure. also, one can buy tapes by ram dass, > >> jack kornfield, john novak (?), and many others. > >> i sit in a chair, and at 56 y/o, i don't ever expect > >> to sit in the lotus position. and that is no big > >> deal. be comfortable. if you are not comfortable, > >> and you don't have fun you may quite. also, test > >> and see if it is not helpful. like science. i am calmer, > >> less depressed (i am diagnosed with maj. depression > >> and ptsd), and my outlook is better. that is due to > >> the chanting/meditation i have been practicing. > >> doug > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >I have the same situation with you, no-one to teach, no centers > >> >nearby! I have read some and search the net, but francly I don't > >> >have very much time to put in this, I am a student of literature, > >so > >> >I have plenty to read anyway :) But we are here to support each > >> >other, right? > >> > > >> >Many western people find it hard to sit in a lotus position or > >even > >> >ordinary position (don't know the name in english...). They/we are > >> >simply not used to sit on the floor, our back muscles are usually > >> >too week. It has said that the second best thing would be sitting > >> >your back against the wall to keep your posture strait. Also you > >can > >> >sit in a chair; I guess anything is possible as long as you feel > >> >comfortable, even lying in your bed (do not sleep though, lol!) > >> > > >> >In my opinion aiming to 15 minutes is too much in the beginning, > >you > >> >can start from just minutes; again, what ever feels comfortable. > >> > > >> >Lotta > >> > > >> > > >> >--- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Thanks for the help and yes, I can use all the help I can > >get. I > >> >> have no one to teach me, I have a computer for a teacher.

> >There > >> >is > >> >> no one close to me and I have no transport. Is there a certain > >> >way > >> >> to sit or stand? > >> >> Raven > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "monkette1" > ><monkette1@y...> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Greetings Dear Raven and Sangha, > >> >> > > >> >> > It may help to simply focus on the breath, and don't worry > >about > >> >> doing anything with > >> >> > your mind when you are meditating, just let the thoughts flow > >> >and > >> >> observe, don't try > >> >> > to stop or control them. Some say to count the breath to 10 > >and > >> >> start over again. > >> >> > > >> >> > Another suggestion is to meditate for short periods - 10 to > >15 > >> >> minutes. From my > >> >> > experience and what I have been taught, even experienced > >> >meditators > >> >> get the most > >> >> > benefit from meditating no more than about 45 minutes. There > >are > >> >> various takes on > >> >> > this. > >> >> > > >> >> > Are you having any problems with posture or method of > >sitting? > >> >> > > >> >> > Take care, may you be well and happy > > > >> > > >> >> > Peace in the dharma, > >> >> > Diana > >> >> > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Raven" <ravennd@m...> > >> >wrote: > >> >> > > My name is Raven and I live in South Africa. I am new to > >> >> Buddhism > >> >> > > and would appreciate any help. I have read several lessons > >> >off > >> >> of > >> >> > > the internet and I have a big problem with meditating. I > >just > >> >> can't > >> >> > > seem to quiet my mind. I start and then everything begins > >to > >> >> invade > >> >> > > my thoughts. I really need a lot of help in this > >department. > >> >> > > Raven > >> >> > > Delport > >> > > >> > > >> >Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> >To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> > >><<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/><http://groups.yahoo.com>http://groups.yahoo.com > >/group/Buddhism_101/ > >> > > >> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> ><mailto:Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? > >subject=Unsubscribe>Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > > >> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > >> ><<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! > >>Terms of Service. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough. > >> There is no special path which is true. > >> Shunryu Suzuki > >> Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page > >> > >><http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html>http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html > >> Doug Yelmen's Art Site > >> <http://www.PostModernArt.com>http://www.PostModernArt.com> > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >To visit your group on the web, go to: > ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/ > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > ><mailto:Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? subject=Unsubscribe>Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > -- > Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough. > There is no special path which is true. > Shunryu Suzuki > Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page > http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html> Doug Yelmen's Art Site > http://www.PostModernArt.com

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--

Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough. There is no special path which is true. Shunryu Suzuki

Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page
http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html
Doug Yelmen's Art Site
http://www.PostModernArt.com

#806 From: "animaux99" <animaux@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:35 pm
Subject: New to this group animaux99
Send Email

Hello, my name is Victoria and I live in Austin, Texas.  I have been
studying Buddhism for about 10 years, practicing for a year.  I also
practice Hatha Yoga.

I have not found a suitable teacher yet, but I know I will.  It is
my intention in this life to prepare for my next.  With fortune, I
will live a monastic life next time around.

I am married for 11 years to my soulmate.  He is not Buddhist, but
gives me freedom to be who I am.  I am very happily married.

The  most recent studies I've been doing have been Atisha's Lamp to
the Path.  I also practice tonglen meditation.  I have a lot to
learn, but the teachings are starting to make sense and I'm starting
to understand them!  Of course, that's after I read the same page
about 25 times.  However, I am down to reading the page three times
before retaining.  Progress!

All for now,
peace,
Victoria

#807 From: Kindnsruls@...
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 2:13 am
Subject: On Meditation Kindnsruls
Send Email

This is the technique that helped me the most when I first began to meditate.

This Teaching is from Pema Chodron, a fully ordained Bikkshuni, as taught her by her Teacher Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche.

You can find more of Pema's straight forward style Teachings at <<:http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/truemind.html>>

I highly recommend her video "The Good Medicine" which has an excellent Teaching on Mindfulness Meditation, and also on Tonglen. I notice some of you here are talking about illness, and depression, and really, really recommend this video.

It helped me immensely in dealing with both. :D

Meditation isn't really about getting rid of thoughts, it's about changing the pattern of grasping on to things, which in our everyday experience is our thoughts.

The thoughts are fine if they are seen as transparent, but we get so caught up judging thoughts as right or wrong, for and against, yes and no, needing it to be this way and not that way. And even that might be okay except that is accompanied by strong, strong emotions. So we just start ballooning out more and more. With this grasping onto thoughts we just get more caught, more and more hooked. All of us. Every single one of us.

It's as if you had vast, unlimited space– complete openness, total freedom, complete liberation– and the habit of the human race is to always, out of fear, grasp onto little parts of it. And that is called ego and ego is grasping on to the content of our thoughts. That is also the root of suffering, because there is something in narrowing it down which inherently causes us a lot of pain because it is then that we are always in a relationship of wanting or not wanting. We are always in a struggle with other people, with situations, even with our own being. That's what we call stress. That's what we experience as continual, on-going stress. Even in the most healthy, unneurotic of us, there's some kind of slight or very profound anxiety of some kind, some kind of uneasiness or dissatisfaction.

When Trungpa Rinpoche came to the West and was teaching in the early days in Vermont at what used to be called Tail of the Tiger (now Karme Choling), he used to tell the students: "Just sit and let your mind open and rest-- let yourself be completely open with an open mind, and whenever you get distracted and find yourself thinking-- in other words when you are no longer fully in the present and are carried away-- simply just come back again to resting your mind in an open state."

But when he began to realize is that for most people it was just chatter, chatter, chatter constantly, and there was no openness or stillness. We were practicing with our worries and concerns about our jobs and relationships and everything. And the average experience was of no openness at all, just a lot of noise. So we sat down and rested our minds in talking to ourselves. . . The instruction wasn't doing what it set out to do. It was actually a more advanced instruction than we were capable of following.

So Rinpoche drew from the tradition and gave us more of a form than just this "Open your mind and let it rest there." He said, "Relate to the breath; go out with the outbreath." He gave us an object of meditation. It's very significant that it's only the outbreath that we attend to. This isn't easy to say that we don't breathe in and out. We do, of course. But what it's like saying is more like: get the sense of emphasizing the outwardness, because that's as close as you can come to just resting your mind in its natural state, since the breath naturally goes out and dissolves into space.

I was reading an article recently on meditation which he had written in the early days, which is kind of transitional instruction. In it he told us to start with attending to breathing in and out, but he said, "The key thing here is, try not to watch the breath, but try feeling in go in and out, so you feel one with the breath. Just see if from the beginning you can minimize that sense of heavy-duty watching it, and just feel the breath going in and out." And then he said, "Then start to emphasize the outwardness and the space that the breath goes into, and emphasize that more and more. And then just see if you can let that sense of outwardness and space begin to pervade the whole practice more and more."

Once I was describing this technique to a friend of mine in another Buddhist tradition which emphasizes a strong focus on mindfulness of the breath, and I said, "We emphasize the outbreath, and then we're told to just wait. As the breath is coming in we are told to just wait, and then go out again, and then wait again and then go out again." She said, "No, that's impossible." And I said, "Why?" And she said, "Well because there's a whole part of meditation there where you don't have an object-- there's nothing to concentrate on, there's a whole part there where the point is nothing to be mindful of." And then I realized that was the point. I had never before realized so clearly that that was actually the point.

This space between outbreaths is sometimes called the *gap.* It points toward some gap in the internal chatter, some experience of spaciousness. It may take quite a long time for the beginning meditator to have an experience of that gap or space, and that's okay. That is why the other part of our meditation instruction is to label any thoughts we have as "thinking" and just let go of them and come back to the outbreath. That instruction encourages us to interrupt the constant barrage of talking to ourselves. And even if we do that only once *there is already some kind of gap which underlies remembering to come back to the sense of the outbreath going out.* We may not be aware of it as "gap," but it is already there as the basis of the process of remembering to label thoughts thinking and come back home to the present moment.

Trungpa Rinpoche used to say, "The technique leads us towards opening and doesn't have any hang-ups of something we have to undo later." With this technique you can't get attached to having something to hold on to all the time. You could say it's sort of a *death* there– the breath goes out, and then what? Then the breath goes out and out and out and then what? Sometimes people will panic when their breath goes out because of the fact that there's nothing to hold on to. We don't want to encourage panic, but when that happens I always know that the person has actually connected with what it's all about.

This open state which we connect with is the true nature of mind and is often described as like the big sky. It is described this way in both the Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions and is similarly described in the Zen tradition. The true nature of our being is not really so much this embodiment, this corporeal form which is transient and is always in a a state of changing and decaying. From the moment of birth to the moment of death it's going through a process of wearing out. But what is always accessible to us in any moment as our birthright is actually the completely open and vast nature of our mind. And what we call ego is narrowing it down and grasping on to small parts, which is our personal experience is saying, "I want this and I don't want that," "I like this and I don't like that." We are grasping onto our limited thinking instead of staying with what's really possible for us.

So I think it's helpful to know that the history of the technique because it clearly points to the true nature of mind, which is unobstructed and really vast. And that is the try nature of all reality. But we have a very strong habit of always wanting to hold on to things, even if we label it "mindfulness." We want ground under our feet. This technique is weaning us from that towards a much more liberated and vast way of living and being. It also isn't getting rid of thoughts so much as letting thoughts play in the vast space of which we are a part, if we could only realize it.

May All Beings Be Happy.

Joyce

#808 From: Diana <monkette1@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:07 pm
Subject: More stuff on practice and sitting monkette1
Send Email

Greetings Raven and all Dear Sangha:

here's some recommendations on practice that appealed
to me - but of course not all of them may resonate
with you, and that's fine.

They are from Charlotte Joko Beck with the Ordinary
Mind School (Zen)

Some Suggestions on Practice


Joko Beck has written the following suggestions to
help her students with their practice:


Don't begin a sitting period without considering why
you sit. Know your intention. Know that there is
"nowhere to go, nothing to achieve." Be aware of
ambitious thoughts.

Check your posture. No matter how you sit, the body
should be erect (but not stiff), balanced, and at
ease. The sitting place should be neat and pleasant.
(But we can sit anywhere and in any position--even
lying down if ill or exhausted).

Sit every day. Try not to miss more than one day in a
week. If resistance arises (it is a normal part of
practice), be aware that it consists of thinking; like
all thought, it need not dominate you. Just observe
it. Feel it in the body. And do not bully yourself,
ever.

Once a week, sit 10-15 minutes longer than you want to
sit.

Don't become obsessed by sitting. In no case should
one's work or family responsibilities be neglected in
order to sit.

When upset, don't avoid sitting. Hard as it may be, it
is crucial to sit when difficulties arise.

Know that sitting is simply maintaining awareness of
body and mind. Be aware of any desire to turn sitting
into an escape from life by entering peaceful,
trance-like states; such states can be seductive but
they are of no use.

Be aware that the honeymoon period for new sitters is
often followed by resistance, possible turbulence, and
emotional uprisings. Just continue practice with
particular emphasis on feeling your bodily sensations.

Be aware that "achieving something" in sitting (such
as special clarity, insight, calmness of mind) is not
the point. These may occur--but the point is your
awareness of whatever is happening, including
confusion, discouragement, or anxiety.

Keep your practice to yourself. Don't attempt to teach
others; do not proselytize. Leave your friends and
family alone. There is an old saying, "let them ask
three times..." What you can give others is how you
live.

Don't spend your sitting time in planning. Nothing is
wrong with planning per se, but set up another time
for it. If you hear planning thoughts when you sit,
label them.

In daily life, be acutely aware of the desire to
gossip or complain, to judge others or yourself, to
feel superior or inferior.



All practice can be summed up as


(1) observation of the mental process, and


(2) the experiencing of present bodily sensations. No
more and no less.


And finally, remember that real practice is not about
the techniques or koans or anything else as ends in
themselves, but about the transformation of your life
and mine. There are no "quick fixes." Our practice is
about our life, and we practice forever.


Copyright (c), 1996 by Charlotte Joko Beck
Peace in the dharma,
Diana�

__________________________________
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Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#809 From: Doug Yelmen <dougyelmen@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:44 pm
Subject: Re: More stuff on practice and sitting dougyelmen
Send Email

this is marvelous. i am printing it up.
some of it sounds like what i learned
at anada. i haven't been back. but retain
some of what they taught i.e. sit once
a week 10-15  minutes longer, or whatever.

my friend, and sometimes teacher, has
told me to sit with whatever was bothering
me. i thought he was putting me on. then, i read
it in another context, and saw both points of
view, and tried it and it worked--somewhat.
it will take practice.

i am truly happy these days. i am still plagued
by my illness, but it is as though it is in perspective.

i will  have to get used to not trying to convince my
family and friends of the benefits of meditation.
i really appreciated the wisdom of this. let them
ask 3 times. ha. the only thing my family as for
3 times is money.

i am drawn to tibetan buddhims. i saw the dalai
lama in nor cal in 2001. i think i got some spiritual
"solutions" just being in his presense.


peace,

doug






>Greetings Raven and all Dear Sangha:
>
>here's some recommendations on practice that appealed
>to me - but of course not all of them may resonate
>with you, and that's fine.
>
>They are from Charlotte Joko Beck with the Ordinary
>Mind School (Zen)
>
>Some Suggestions on Practice
>
>
>Joko Beck has written the following suggestions to
>help her students with their practice:
>
>
>Don't begin a sitting period without considering why
>you sit. Know your intention. Know that there is
>"nowhere to go, nothing to achieve." Be aware of
>ambitious thoughts.
>
>Check your posture. No matter how you sit, the body
>should be erect (but not stiff), balanced, and at
>ease. The sitting place should be neat and pleasant.
>(But we can sit anywhere and in any position--even
>lying down if ill or exhausted).
>
>Sit every day. Try not to miss more than one day in a
>week. If resistance arises (it is a normal part of
>practice), be aware that it consists of thinking; like
>all thought, it need not dominate you. Just observe
>it. Feel it in the body. And do not bully yourself,
>ever.
>
>Once a week, sit 10-15 minutes longer than you want to
>sit.
>
>Don't become obsessed by sitting. In no case should
>one's work or family responsibilities be neglected in
>order to sit.
>
>When upset, don't avoid sitting. Hard as it may be, it
>is crucial to sit when difficulties arise.
>
>Know that sitting is simply maintaining awareness of
>body and mind. Be aware of any desire to turn sitting
>into an escape from life by entering peaceful,
>trance-like states; such states can be seductive but
>they are of no use.
>
>Be aware that the honeymoon period for new sitters is
>often followed by resistance, possible turbulence, and
>emotional uprisings. Just continue practice with
>particular emphasis on feeling your bodily sensations.
>
>Be aware that "achieving something" in sitting (such
>as special clarity, insight, calmness of mind) is not
>the point. These may occur--but the point is your
>awareness of whatever is happening, including
>confusion, discouragement, or anxiety.
>
>Keep your practice to yourself. Don't attempt to teach
>others; do not proselytize. Leave your friends and
>family alone. There is an old saying, "let them ask
>three times..." What you can give others is how you
>live.
>
>Don't spend your sitting time in planning. Nothing is
>wrong with planning per se, but set up another time
>for it. If you hear planning thoughts when you sit,
>label them.
>
>In daily life, be acutely aware of the desire to
>gossip or complain, to judge others or yourself, to
>feel superior or inferior.
>
>
>
>All practice can be summed up as
>
>
>(1) observation of the mental process, and
>
>
>(2) the experiencing of present bodily sensations. No
>more and no less.
>
>
>And finally, remember that real practice is not about
>the techniques or koans or anything else as ends in
>themselves, but about the transformation of your life
>and mine. There are no "quick fixes." Our practice is
>about our life, and we practice forever.
>
>
>Copyright (c), 1996 by Charlotte Joko Beck
>Peace in the dharma,
>Diana�
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
>http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--
Just to be there in the corner of the garden is enough.
There is no special path which is true.
Shunryu Suzuki
Vietnam Veterans and Other Survivors of Trauma Freedom Page
http://home.earthlink.net/~dougyelmen/nampage.html
Doug Yelmen's Art Site
http://www.PostModernArt.com

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#810 From: "willy_medicine_dragon" <willyskarmaisachoppingblock@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:35 pm
Subject: _0_ all willy_medici...
Send Email

I hope that this day sees you all well and happy.  THe New Year has
started and New and excitings changes are about, not only on personal
levels, community, global too.

I am researching Buddhism, and going along with the posts reading
what I can when I can.  I meditate in from of my alter, depending
what time allows.  I find that if I do NOT take the time to do so, I
ger really really cranky and irritable.  I also listnen to
medatational music or Celtic.  Sometimes I clear my mind, other times
I ponder lifes pathways and where they lead, or are leading too.
Sometimes, if I dare to, clear my mind entirerly.  The second time I
meditated in this fashion, I was comming out about a hour and a half
later.

My sister who was a practicing Wiccan when she first told me about
that and the "Do what ye will, let it harm none" bit.  She was a
partial vegetarian.  She ate cheese, milk, chocolate, honey, and
eggs.  Occasionally ocean dwelling creatures.  She was working in a
Sam's Sub's (Like Subway) and I asked her about her handeling the
meat.  She said that it was the people BEFORE HER that suffered the
bad Karma, shes just doing her job.  However, the thing is (my
opinion here), the people that are being ignorant about cattle
production thats THEIR FAULT for THEIR GREED, ignorance, and overall
stupidity.  Whoever killed the animal, thats THEIR KARMA, not yours.
Your money may pay that persons bills, however you are Buddhist
right, he who causes suffering, must be embraced like a friend,
irreguardless.  I buy meat, and I do so with thses points in mind.

A)  Thats the producers bad Karma, not mine.  I bless him with wisdom
and blessings.  May be be granted teh wisdom to see the err of his
ways and take the steps to balance those acts out.  Thats a tall
order, however one must do waht one must.


B)  Spirituality, like mankind evolves.  We used to eat grass on teh
plains of Africa.  Homo Erectus was much smaller than who walks in
this day, he also had 2 times the intestines to digest all the bark,
berries, grasses, roots and fibers that were only availble at that
point in time.  Having more intestines, means that there is a bigger
ribcage to hold all that in there.  Their heads and brains were not
as deveolped as they are today either.  When man started eating meat,
the brains got smaller, more compact, however we started to THINK,
REMEMBER, EVOLVE to what we are today.  We would not be here today if
man had NOT started to eat meat.  Our brains HAVE to have protein,
granted if you follow a corect diet of legumes, and the like, you can
have a healthy life style.  To each their own.


C)  Was Lord Buddha a vegatarian??????

_0_ always,

Avasita

#811 From: "willy_medicine_dragon" <willyskarmaisachoppingblock@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:35 pm
Subject: _0_ all willy_medici...
Send Email

I hope that this day sees you all well and happy.  THe New Year has
started and New and excitings changes are about, not only on personal
levels, community, global too.

I am researching Buddhism, and going along with the posts reading
what I can when I can.  I meditate in from of my alter, depending
what time allows.  I find that if I do NOT take the time to do so, I
ger really really cranky and irritable.  I also listnen to
medatational music or Celtic.  Sometimes I clear my mind, other times
I ponder lifes pathways and where they lead, or are leading too.
Sometimes, if I dare to, clear my mind entirerly.  The second time I
meditated in this fashion, I was comming out about a hour and a half
later.

My sister who was a practicing Wiccan when she first told me about
that and the "Do what ye will, let it harm none" bit.  She was a
partial vegetarian.  She ate cheese, milk, chocolate, honey, and
eggs.  Occasionally ocean dwelling creatures.  She was working in a
Sam's Sub's (Like Subway) and I asked her about her handeling the
meat.  She said that it was the people BEFORE HER that suffered the
bad Karma, shes just doing her job.  However, the thing is (my
opinion here), the people that are being ignorant about cattle
production thats THEIR FAULT for THEIR GREED, ignorance, and overall
stupidity.  Whoever killed the animal, thats THEIR KARMA, not yours.
Your money may pay that persons bills, however you are Buddhist
right, he who causes suffering, must be embraced like a friend,
irreguardless.  I buy meat, and I do so with thses points in mind.

A)  Thats the producers bad Karma, not mine.  I bless him with wisdom
and blessings.  May be be granted teh wisdom to see the err of his
ways and take the steps to balance those acts out.  Thats a tall
order, however one must do waht one must.


B)  Spirituality, like mankind evolves.  We used to eat grass on teh
plains of Africa.  Homo Erectus was much smaller than who walks in
this day, he also had 2 times the intestines to digest all the bark,
berries, grasses, roots and fibers that were only availble at that
point in time.  Having more intestines, means that there is a bigger
ribcage to hold all that in there.  Their heads and brains were not
as deveolped as they are today either.  When man started eating meat,
the brains got smaller, more compact, however we started to THINK,
REMEMBER, EVOLVE to what we are today.  We would not be here today if
man had NOT started to eat meat.  Our brains HAVE to have protein,
granted if you follow a corect diet of legumes, and the like, you can
have a healthy life style.  To each their own.


C)  Was Lord Buddha a vegatarian??????

_0_ always,

Avasita

#812 From: Lotta <lode77@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: _0_ all finn_vegan
Send Email

I'm sorry, I don't want offend any of you people here, that ingludes you "willy" too, but really, you are brainwashed by meat-, dairy-, poultry-, egg- and fish(etc) and bee industries. (Lets not forget their byproducts)

Do you "willy" have any idea what these animals you consume have to go through in their miserably lifes, before the painful death? Before ending up on your plate?

I am not vegan because homo erectus might have been. I am vegan because I am compassionate, loving person whose heart, eyes and ears are open. Humans do not need animal products. All ingredients are given to us in other ways.

Every person who supports this horrible animal exploitation has her/his share of bad karma, believe me. Saying goes: One Dollar, one vote. (In my case Euro). Animals are not ours to rule and use, this is not planet for human race only. We are not higher than animal or plants in that matter. Only thing we have higher is our intelligence, and look at where it has led us; look at the world we live in today. Thank you intelligence!

When I read your post I saw only exuses, in your heart you know I am saying the truth but you, like most of the omnivores have built a wall around you, so you wouldn't see, hear, know it. Some people propably are not mentally ready to be vegans, but I don't think those people would be a member in a group like this! Again,when I read your post, I became sad in my heart, and I feel sorry that you don't see that illusion, that wall of exuses around you. Most of "the bricks" are expencively and agressively thought to you since you were child! And who else whould have done it, but all mighty animal exploitation industry!

I don't know if Buddha himself was vegan, but back in those days there were no factory farms, no leatherpants, no cosmetic industry looking for cheep ingredients... The way people lived and animals were treated surely was different than today. And when I come to think of it, I recon he might have been vegan :) I believe one cannot become enlightened if consuming animals muscles, blood, organs, milk from other spiecies... Do I need to go on?

I hope I don't hurt you or anybody else. I am still shocked that Buddhist person could even concider supporting this blood thirsty slaughtering.

I have a suggestion to all of you, I will wright a new post little later today.

Lotta

**************************************

willy medicine dragon wrote:

Subject: _0_ all

My sister who was a practicing Wiccan when she first told me about that and the "Do what ye will, let it harm none" bit. She was a partial vegetarian. She ate cheese, milk, chocolate, honey, and eggs. Occasionally ocean dwelling creatures. She was working in a Sam's Sub's (Like Subway) and I asked her about her handeling the meat. She said that it was the people BEFORE HER that suffered the bad Karma, shes just doing her job. However, the thing is (my opinion here), the people that are being ignorant about cattle production thats THEIR FAULT for THEIR GREED, ignorance, and overall stupidity. Whoever killed the animal, thats THEIR KARMA, not yours. Your money may pay that persons bills, however you are Buddhist right, he who causes suffering, must be embraced like a friend, irreguardless. I buy meat, and I do so with thses points in mind. A) Thats the producers bad Karma, not mine. I bless him with wisdom and blessings. May be be granted teh wisdom to see the err of his ways and take the steps to balance those acts out. Thats a tall order, however one must do waht one must. B) Spirituality, like mankind evolves. We used to eat grass on teh plains of Africa. Homo Erectus was much smaller than who walks in this day, he also had 2 times the intestines to digest all the bark, berries, grasses, roots and fibers that were only availble at that point in time. Having more intestines, means that there is a bigger ribcage to hold all that in there. Their heads and brains were not as deveolped as they are today either. When man started eating meat, the brains got smaller, more compact, however we started to THINK, REMEMBER, EVOLVE to what we are today. We would not be here today if man had NOT started to eat meat. Our brains HAVE to have protein, granted if you follow a corect diet of legumes, and the like, you can have a healthy life style. To each their own. C) Was Lord Buddha a vegatarian?????? _0_ always, Avasita

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#813 From: Lotta <lode77@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 9:34 pm
Subject: Should Buddhists be vegetarians ? finn_vegan
Send Email

Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 11:20 pm
Subject: Should Buddhists be vegetarians ?

x
Should Buddhists be vegetarians ?
by Dr. D.P. Atukorale
Chuyển Ngữ: T�m Diệu

All Buddhists are expected to observe the five precepts. Out of these, when we observe the first precept, we promise not to take the life of any living being and not to harm any such being. It is quite clear that we cannot consume fleshwithout someone else killing the animals for us. If we do not consume meat or meat products, there will be no killing of animals. The first precept is an injunction against destroying life and hurting others.

The Buddha also tells us not to hurt others according to the first precept. According to passage number 131 of Dhammapada, �He who, for the sake of happiness hurts others who also want happiness, shall not hereafter find happiness�. Therefore according to Buddhism not killing and not hurting living beings are very important.

Passage no. 225 of Dhammapada says, �The wise who hurt no living beings and who keep their bodies under self-control, may go to immortal �Nirvana� where once gone they sorrow no more�.

Again Dhammapada passage no. 405 says, �A man is not a great man because he is a warrior and kills others, but because he hurts not any living beings he in truth is called a great man�.

Dhammapada passages 129 and 130 say, �All beings fear before danger; life is dear to all. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill�.

According to Buddhism all animals such as fish, mammals and birds are sentient creatures and should not be killed or hurt. According to Buddhism, Buddhists should not be hunters, fishermen, trappers, slaughterhouse workers, vivisectors etc.

What about eating meat ?
Some people argue that, as long as people don�t kill animals themselves, it is all right to eat meat. But passages nos. 129 and 130 of Dhammapada specify that we should not kill or cause to kill. When somebody buys meat and meat products he or she must necessarily cause someone to kill these animals.

By accepting meat served to us by someone else, we are causing others to kill. Dhammapada passage no. 7 says, �He who lives only for pleasures and whose soul is not in harmony, who considers not the food he eats, is idle and has not the power of virtue, such a man is moved by �Mara�, is moved by selfish temptation even as a weak tree is shaken by the wind�.

The main reason is mercy. Mercy is an important way of learning to be a better person. Being without mercy is incompatible with being a Buddhist. Having a merciful and a compassionate heart will show up in all aspects of one�s life.
Think of the intense pain you would get when a bee or a wasp or a centipede attacks you. A person who has ever seen how a crab is cooked in boiling water and its desperate and doomed efforts to crawl and jump out betray the unbearable pain it experiences, will never eat crabs. Finally the crab gives up the life in sorrow as it turns bright red. What a painful end !

Why should buddhists be vegetarians ?
A person who has ever seen the excruciating pain suffered by a cow when the slaughterer cuts a part of the neck, bleeds the animal and skins the animal long before it dies will never have the heart to eat beef. Not eating the flesh of these animals is an expression of mercy.

For meat-eaters, every banquet, every wedding and every birthday party and every wedding anniversary means death of thousands of animals.

Preventing the suffering of living creatures by not using their flesh to satisfy our taste buds and hunger is the minimum expression of compassion we as Buddhists can offer.
To shoot, knife, strangle, drown crush, poison, burn or electo. or otherwise intentionally to take life of a living being, purposefully to cause pain on a human being or an animal is to defile the first precept.

Another way to defile the first precept is to cause another to kill, torture or harm any living creature. Therefore to put flesh of an animal into one�s belly is another way to cause another to kill.

If fowls, cows and fish are not eaten, they would not be killed. Therefore meat eaters are responsible for the violence and destruction of animals.

Buddhism also teaches us that there is not a single being that has not been our father, our mother, husband, wife, sister, brother, son or daughter, in the ladder of cause and effect through countless rebirths. In other words the creature that is the cow today might have been our mother during the last birth.

The chicken you are going to eat for your dinner to-night might have been your brother or sister during your last birth. Therefore rights of nonhumans should not be ignored or trampled upon. How can a bhikkhu seeking liberation from suffering, persistently eat the flesh of animals, knowing the excruciating pain and terror caused to them at the time of their slaughter ?

Did the Buddha sanction meat eating ?
The laymen and Bhikkhus who eat meat quote the Jeewaka sutra in which the Buddha is said to have been addressed by one Jeewaka. Buddha is quoted as saying.
�I forbid the eating of meat in 3 cases. If there is evidence either of your eyes, or of your ears or if there are grounds of suspicion. In three cases, I allow it, if there is no evidence of your eyes or of your ears and if there is no ground of suspicion�.
Are not domestic animals such as cows, goats, pigs and hens slaughtered for those who eat their flesh? If no one eats their flesh, obviously they would not be killed.
Can anyone imagine a Bhikku saying to his �dayakaya� who had offered him meat, �Sir, it is kind of you to donate this meat to me. But as I have reason to believe that the animal from which it came was killed just for me, I cannot accept it�?
Jeewaka sutra also implies that the Buddha approved of butchering and the horrors of the slaughterhouse. Yet slaughtering is one of the trades forbidden to the Buddhists and with good reason.

To say that on the one hand that the Buddha condemned the blood trades of slaughtering, hunting, fishing and trapping and on the other hand allowed Buddhists and Bhikkhus to eat flesh of slaughtered animals when the animals have not been killed specifically for them is an absurd contradiction.

Whoelse but the meat eaters are responsible for the blood trades of butchering, hunting and fishing? After all the slaughterers and the meat packing houses that sustain them are only responding to the demands of the flesh eaters.

�I am only doing your dirty work� was the reply of a slaughterer to a gentleman who was objecting to the brutality of slaughtering harmless dumb animals�.

Every individual who eats flesh whether the animal is expressly killed for him or not, is supporting the trade of slaughtering and contributing to the violent death of harmless dumb animals.

Was the Buddha so obtuse that, He failed to understand this, He who has been described as the �Perfect One�, in whom, all mental, spiritual and psychic faculties have come to perfection and whose consciousness encompasses the infinity of the Universe?
Was the Buddha so imperceptive as not to see that only by abstaining from flesh eating can one effectively end both killing of defenceless and dumb animals and the infliction of terror and suffering upon them.

The Buddha, we are told forbade His monks to eat flesh of such animals as dogs, elephants, bears and lions. Why should the Buddha sanction the eating of one kind of flesh and condemn another? Does a pig or a cow whose meat is supposed to be approved for eating, suffer any less pain, when it is slaughtered than a dog or a bear?
All Buddhists who are familiar with numerous accounts of the Buddha�s extra-ordinary compassion and reverence for living beings, for example, His insistence that, His bhikkhus carry filters to strain water they drink, lest the death of micro organisms in the water could occur, could never believe that He would be indifferent to the suffering and death of domestic animals caused by their slaughter for food.

As all Buddhists are aware, bhikkus have a separate code of conduct called the �Vinaya�. Surely the Buddha could have demanded of His monks what He could not have demanded of His lay followers.

Bhikkhus by virtue of their training and their strength of character, are different from the lay people and are better able to resist the pleasures of senses to which ordinary people succumb. That is why, they renounce sexual pleasure and also not eat solids beyond 12 noon. Why is taking solids after 12 noon a more serious offence than eating animal flesh? Did the Buddha really say the things the compilers of the Pali Sutras would have us believe, He said on the subject of meat eating?

Mahayana version of meat eating
Let us now consider the Sanskrit version as regards meat eating. I quote from �Lankavatara� sutra which devotes one whole chapter on the evils of meat eating.
�For the sake of love, of purity, the Bodhisatva should refrain from eating flesh which is born of semen, blood etc. For the fear of causing terror of living beings let the Bodhisatva who is disciplining himself to attain compassion refrain from eating flesh�.
�It is not true that meat is proper food and permissible when the animal was not killed by himself, when he did not order others to kill, and when it is not specially meant for him�.
�Again there may be people in the future who being under the influence of taste for meat, will string together in various ways sophistic arguments to defend meat eating�.
But meat eating in any form, in any manner, and in any place is unconditionally and once and for all, is prohibited. I will not permit�.Surangama Sutra says �The reason for practising �dhyana� and seeking to attain �Samadhi� is to escape from suffering of life.
But in seeking to escape from suffering ourselves, why should we inflict it upon others. Unless you can control your minds, that even the thought of brutal unkindness and killing is abhorrent you will never be able to escape from bondage of world�s life�.
�After my parinirvana in the last kalpa, different kinds of ghosts will be encountered everywhere, deceiving people, and teaching that they can eat meat and still attain enlightenment. How can a bhikku who hopes to become a deliverer of others himself, be living on the flesh of other sentient beings�?

The �Mahaparinirvana� Sutra (Sanskrit version) states: �The eating of meat extinguishes the seeds of compassion�.
Even before the Buddha�s time various religions in India condemned flesh eating as not conducive to spiritual progress. If elder bhikkhus of Mahayana were satisfied with Theravada version of flesh eating, they would have remained silent. The fact that they spoke out so vehemently against flesh eating, shows how deeply disturbed the elder bhikkhus who wrote the Sanskrit version of Buddha�s teachings were.
The Encyclopedia of Buddhism points out that, in China and Japan, flesh eating was looked upon as an evil and was ostracized and any kind of meat was not used in temples and monasteries. Meat eating was taboo in Japan until the middle of the 19th century.

People avoided giving alms to flesh eating bhikkhus.
Dr. Kosheliya Wali in her book, �Conception of Ahimsa In Indian Thought� says, �meat can never be obtained without injuring creatures and injury to sentient beings and is detrimental to heavenly bliss and therefore one should shun meat eating�.
�One should consider the disgusting origin of flesh and the cruelty of slaughtering sentient beings and entirely abstain from flesh eating�.�He who permits the slaughter of animals, he who cuts up, kills, buys, sells, serves it up and eats, every one is a slayer of animals�.
�He who seeks to increase his own flesh with the flesh of others and worshipping the gods is the greatest of all sinners�.
�Meat cannot be obtained from straw or stone. It can be obtained only by slaughtering creatures. Hence meat is not to be taken�.

A Chinese monk once said �You form a company with whatever type of meat you eat. You form a corporation with whatever type of animals you eat. For example if you eat a lot of pork you will become tied up into a company of pigs, same applies to cows, chicken, sheep, fish and so forth�.

A British vegetarian named Dr. Walch once said �To prevent human, bloodshed one must start at the dinner table�. If a person wants to take joy in Buddhism and enter into mercy and knowledge of the Buddha he must begin at the dinner table.

In Sri Lanka, a wedding party takes hundreds if not thousands of animal lives. A birthday party or a wedding anniversary takes hundreds of animal lives. Before the death, living creatures experience, not joy, but anger and hatred and resentment. It is just by not killing with body that you observe the first precept. If in your thinking you allow the killing to go or, you also break the first precept.
We must be determined not to condone killing even in our minds. According to Buddism mind is the base of all actions.

Did Buddha die from eating meat?
Buddhist monks who eat meat under certain circumstances, justify their flesh eating, saying that, Buddha himself ate a piece, of pork at one of his followers houses rather than hurt the feelings of his �dayakaya�. Some Bhikkhus who eat flesh, say that, they eat whatever is put before them without any aversion.
But most of the Buddhist scholars contend that it was not a piece of meat that caused the Buddha�s death and all Mahayana scriptures unequivocally condone meat eating as mentioned earlier.

According to Mrs. Rhys David what Chunda offered to the Buddha is some mushrooms. Rhys David says that the term �sukara maddara� has at least 4 meanings.
(a) Food eaten by pigs.
(b) �Pigs delight�
(c) Soft parts of the pig and
(d) Food trampled by the pigs.

Chunda being a follower of the Buddha, surely, he would not have offered a piece of pork, well knowing that flesh was not a part of the Buddha�s diet. Very likely Chunda did not eat meat himself as many Indians did not eat meat during the Buddha�s time.
Why then would he have offered meat to the �World Honoured One�, a person so sensitive to suffering of all living beings, that he would not drink milk from a cow during the first 10 days after its calf is born.
Any Bhikkhu who has been offered meals at the home of a Buddhist knows that, the �dayakaya� usually asks the Bhikkhu or his attendant or other �dayakayas� known to the monk, what kind of food, the Bhikkhus normally eats, so that the �dayakaya� can avoid serving food that does not agree with him physically or spiritually. During the Buddha�s days the would be donors of meals to the Buddha often consulted Ven. Ananda, the Buddha�s attendant.
Bhikkhus who do not like any item of diet offered to them have a pleasant way of rejecting such food, without uttering a single word.
As far as I know the majority of bhikkus in Sri Lanka eat meat and meat products. Some bhikkhus sometimes mention to the dayakaya, items of diet such as chicken which they eat when the dayakaya meets them to book a date for �dana�. Quite a number of Buddhist monks especially those living in temples such as �Sasuna� and hermitages do not consume any form of meat, fish or eggs, because that kind of food rouses passion and is not conducive to their spritiual uplift.
It is noteworthy that more and more dayakayas give vegetarian diet for almsgivings and the number of vegetarian bhikkhus has been increasing during the past few years.
Bhikkhus can play a great role in reducing the slaughter of animals and the terror and suffering associated with slaughter by requesting their followers not to serve flesh when they meet the Bhikkhus to invite them for an almsgiving as there are lots of Buddhists who follow the good examples set by Bhikkus.
The majority of Buddhists have a higher respect for vegetarian Bhikkhus than for monks who eat flesh. Bhukkhus who preach �Dhamma� can in no way accept flesh for food without getting into a conflict with �Ahimsa�.

Buddhism is a religion to be practised. If the body of Bhikkus makes a proper drive for vegetarianism it would save a lot of animals from slaughter and cruelty and terror that accompanies slaughter.
The body of Bhikkhus should lead the way and lay Buddhists, at least a good proportion of them would follow.

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#814 From: Lotta <lode77@...>
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 12:29 am
Subject: I have a GREAT idea!!! finn_vegan
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Tashi Deleg!

Since I have noticed there is lack of information in this group about how animals are treated these days, and I happen to be a vegan, who happens to have a public group called Promoting Veganism, I figured it would be great idea to invite you people to learn and get inspired! I actually created it as an archive to everybody who are interested in becoming vegetarians or vegans, but this is just as good purpose. I feel I have something to share, to give.

Vegetarism is not only for animals, it is also good for environment, healt and there are ethical issues involved also. So vegetarism and especially veganism is actually a way of life, not just a diet.

I you are interested, curious, want to become better buddhist and better person or what ever you reason might be, you all are welcome to join or just visit every now and then!

Lotta

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#815 From: "HeartwingsPapillons" <papillon8@...>
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 12:27 am
Subject: Re: Should Buddhists be vegetarians ? papsx5
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I am a vegetarian by choice, both for religious and health reasons, however I do occasionally eat eggs and dairy products. I do make a point of only chosing organic products from free range farms as I am more confident that the animals are well cared for and I don't care to eat anything tainted by the drugs and chemicals commonly fed to conventional cows and chickens from factory farms. I just moved from a small town that had a Horizon organic dairy and I actually went there and visited it and was satisfied that the cows were not suffering and only eating wholesome organic foods and I felt better about consuming dairy products that came from the milk produced there. I do not have a moral problem myself (which is not to say that I am right) with free range eggs & dairy, as the animals do not die to produce these products and it is perfectly natural for cows to make milk and chickens to make eggs. Of course, I also believe in logic and it tells me that, if these products were actually good for us, they would not exacerbate the health problems that they do such as high cholesterol, heart and intestinal diseases etc.. Buddhist teachings seem clear to me and I think eating meat is wrong as it is killing and humans certainally do not need to eat meat to survive, but I suppose eggs & dairy fall into that gray area?

The problem I am faced with is that, like many people, I have animals that I keep as pets. Common pet animals like dogs and cats are not vegetarians by nature and, in the wild, they kill and consume other animals for food as many animals do. There are a few commercially made vegetarian foods available for dogs & cats, but both my vet and I feel that these are not natural healthy diets as nature intended these species to eat meat (and never mind that they taste so bad many pets won't eat them LOL!). If I am to feed my dogs and cats an appropriate diet, this diet will contain meat and I often wonder if I am generating negative karma every time I feed my dogs & cats? Obviously, if these same animals were running around in a natural environment, they would kill and consume animals in order to survive, so am I really doing something wrong-is there really negative karma there? I hate the fact that I have this meat pet food in my house, but obviously if I do not feed them they will suffer and die and, if I only feed them a vegetarian diet, they will eventually become ill, suffer and die as well.

Another dilema I often think of is people who live in cold or arid parts of the world where the local diet is very high in animals as farming is impossible in these areas or so difficult that people cannot grow enough food to sustain themselves. Obviously I am talking about remote less developed parts of the world here, but people there have to eat animals or they will die. I would assume all of us on this list live in developed countries where personal preference determines our diets and not simple availibility of food to eat. We can go to the market and chose to put a bag of rice or a chicken into our shopping basket, but there are people in the world who cannot and they either have to kill an animal or have nothing to eat. What of these people, are they "doomed"? None of us chose where we are born and some of us, due to economics or politics, cannot chose where we live.

Just some thoughts...........

Susan

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#816 From: lw3@...
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 4:58 am
Subject: Vegetarians lw3
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I am new to this group, however as being a vegetarian seems to be a hot topic
here I
thought the words of His Holiness The Dalai Lama might be instructive.  The
following is taken from the book "The World of Tibetan Buddhism" by HH The Dalai
Lama.

"The general Buddhist stand on the question of vegetarianism, even from the
perspective of the Vinaya, is that, apart from a few specific situations, there
is no
unequivocal prohibition against eating meat.  This is the prevailing view in
such
Buddhist countries as Sri Lanka, Burma, and Thailand, as reflected in the
dietary
habits of the Buddhist monks from these countries. However, in the scriptual
collections of the Mahayana--the Bodhisattva Vehicle--taking non-vegetarian food
is
generally proscribed.  Yet, although there is general proscription, it is not
always
followed strictly.  We find that in his 'Madhyamaka-hrdayakarika' (Essence of
the
Middle Way), Bhavaviveka raises the question of vegetarianism and its importance
for
the Buddhist way of life.  He reasons that since at the time of actually taking
the food
the animal has already died, the act of eating it does not constitute any direct
harm to
a sentient being.  What is specifically prohibited is taking any meat or
non-vegetarian
food that you have ordered having the knowledge, or even the suspicion, that it
has
been killed specifically for you.  Such meat should not be eaten."

Later, he goes on to say  "In Highest Yoga tantra, however, practioners are
actually
advised to rely upon five types of meat and five types of nectar."

Hopefully this will be helpful to some of you.

#817 From: DeAnna@...
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:27 am
Subject: Temple Protocol jinxde
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I am just starting to study Buddhism and I didn't think I had a
center or temple anywhere near me but the other day I was driving
down this obscure road in a small town near where I live and lo and
behold, I see a Buddhist temple!  It's such a huge surprise because
it's in a VERY small town off of a tiny road.
I'm so interested in it but I'm a little timid about going.
What is the proper protocol for visiting a temple?  Can I just drop
in and ask someone questions about Buddhism?  Do they teach there?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

DeAnna

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#818 From: "Sally Kirkham" <netheads@...>
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:33 am
Subject: RE: Re: _0_ all tribble_2003
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Lotta.

I read your post with some surprise, having read many others from this group from people saying that they are vegetarian or vegan. I have been a vegetarian all my life, and have bought up my daughter as a vegetarian (with discussions with her on this topic, as I believe in free will in her choices).

I felt mildly offended by your post, feeling that you did not acknowledge those of us who have strived to keep �no harm� from our diets as well as the rest of our lives. I also felt that, whilst I disagree with the most of Willy�s points, he is only seeking information on Buddhism and comes to us for this and for debates. I do hope that some replies to his post will show him that, although the meat producers to gain bad kharma from their actions, eating it also does � given that without your action in eating it, the producer would reap no rewards from their cruelty. Personally, I am very well informed about the treatment of animals these days, living as I do in a rural farming community. Perhaps assumptions of a lack of knowledge of others parts would be better avoided when offering information? J

For myself, I eat eggs and milk only, refusing fish and meat. I teach my daughter the reasons I do this and from her own free will, she chooses not to also. Recently she asked to �be allowed� to eat meat, which we discussed and she tried it. She then found that her love for animals outweighed the meat she was able to eat and stopped.

Sally

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