These are really cool.   My son's gave one to their scoutmaster- it
was a hit.  Leesa


----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Boyle <c4jc88@...>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:09:03 -0000
Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: All Wrapped Up in the Appalachian Trail?
To: backpackgeartest@yahoogroups.com

  Sweet!  You can expect an app from me before the call closes!!!  This
  will be much handier than the heavy guidebook I currently carry.

  Jason B



  --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, rick@b... wrote:
  > All Wrapped Up in the Appalachian Trail?
  >
  > BGT, in association with Antigravity Gear, is pleased to offer
  Mapdanas of the
  > Appalachian Trail to three tester/reviewers.  The Mapdana is a Map,
  Data Book,
  > Companion, and Bandana.  There are four Mapdanas.  Each one covers
  about 500
  > miles of the Appalachian Trail.
  >
  > For details see:
  > http://www.antigravitygear.com/
  >
  > For this series, the reviewer will indicate their choice of either
  one or two of
  > the four Mapdanas that cover the portion of the AT which will be
  hiked during
  > the test period.  (If the location of your hikes bridges two of the
  bandanas,
  > ask for both.)
  >
  > The Newbie Limit is NOT in effect.  This is your chance to get a
  piece of gear
  > in addition to others during your Newbie period.
  >
  > I intend to keep the call open through 7 September.  Get those
  applications
  > cranking and turned in with lots of juicy detail that demonstrates
  your
  > understanding of the product.  Please be certain to let me know
  which of the
  > Mapdanas you are requesting.
  >
  > In your application, use the word MAPDANA, as I will be searching
  on that term.
  >
  > Rick Allnutt
  > BGT Test Moderator





  To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


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Shane,

There's a 2 year old in our house, a nearly 3 and 4 year old next
door, and a nearly 3 year old across the street. A little screaming
from me probably won't be noticed much . . .

But thanks for the go-ahead.  I'll keep it in reserve.

Sonjia

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Shane" <shane@t...> wrote:
> > It's supposed to be over 100 degrees F today - permission to run
> > around the house in a panic instead?
>
> Granted.  You may also scream if it won't disturb the neighbors, but
> screaming is optional.
>

I'll be OOP thru Monday Sept 6.
Since I saw interest in the ICP Exponent peak, but only saw 2 additional
applications, I'll leave the call open until I come back...so get those apps
in, folks!

No other testing is affected.
Stephanie
BGT Moderator

--
http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear
reviews and tests on the planet!

I just cleaned out the test folder of all ORs that have already been posted.  I
would appreciate it if those who have posted test versions of their Test Series
reports would remove any unneeded files.

Also, please keep your uploaded test versions in the correct folders:

-TESTS for test series
-Owner Reviews for test versions of the owner reviews.

There are two test versions out there that are outside the right folders.

Rick
Happy Deleter

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Alex Tweedly <alex@t...>
wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> sorry I'm a bit slow with these edits - my ISP decided to help out
with my
> backlog by keeping all email from me for the last couple of days :-(
>
> No edits as such, but a couple of small suggestions that I think
could make
> a good report even better.

Thank you, sir.  Suggestions incorporated, upload pending repair to
site.

Fuzzy (Chuck Kime)

Wondering whether there will be a September OR theme.

Thanks,

--Rick

Shane,

Thank you ever so much for your patience on the edits, I am just
about caught up with everything now.  Per my usual, [EDIT] = must do,
[Edit] = probably should do, [Comment] = my 2¢.  Remember – don't
upload until further notice.

Fuzzy (Chuck Kime)
MSR Carbon Monitor
***********************************************************
The HTML version is uploaded to the TESTS folder on BGT at:
http://tinyurl.com/65owl
[Comment] Nice photos, but in the stream crossing I note that your
hipbelt and sternum strap are still fastened.  This could be bad news
if you were to fall...

These were daytime walks in 70-85 F (21.11-29.44 C) weather in dry
conditions with no pack or load.
[EDIT] 21-29 C is sufficient.

I took a 3 day trip up to the Jefferson Wilderness from 7/30/04 to
8/1/04.
[Edit] My spell/grammar checker prefers "3-day"

Weather conditions were idyllic with daytime temps in the upper 70s
to low 80s F (23 - 29 C) and evening temps dipping to about 55 F
(12.78 C).
[EDIT] 13 C

Temps were in the mid 80s F (~29.5 C) with clear skys and no recent
rain.
[EDIT] skies

While I normally wear a knee brace during long decents, I did not on
any of the trips while using the Overland Carbon Trekking poles.
[EDIT] descents

The weight of the poles has increased slightly as I did add duct tape
and velcro straps to each pole equally.
[EDIT] sigh… either Velcro or hook-and-loop, since Velcro is
trademarked
[Question] How, exactly, do you add them?

Balance and Stability: My concerns over pole stability under load due
to the advertised anti-shock straps and impact absorbing carbon fiber
construction was not warranted.
[EDIT] either "concerns…were not warranted" or "concern…was not
warranted"

My typical trail conditions found me using them at 47.25 in (120cm),
except during excessive downhill grades than lasted for more than
roughly 100 ft (30.5 m).
[Edit] Since its *roughly* 100 ft, then 30 m should be fine.

Reliability and security of adjustment/locking mechanism: I was quite
impressed with the easy and reliability of the "LockJaw" locking
mechanism.
[EDIT] EASE and reliability

There was visible and tactile evidence of the stretch panel on the
traps bearing tension during loading, both while climbing and
descending.
[EDIT] Straps

On the other hand (so to speak) the fact that there is no left and
right handedness on the handles resulted in the straps fitting
differently between my hands. Since there is no "handedness", the
straps do not lay across the hands in a mirror imaged fashion (note
pictures to the right).
[COMMENT] I would think that lack of handedness *should* result in a
mirror image.  If the straps do not provide a mirror image, that
would indicate to me a distinct left and right.  My current poles
(from Target), and the BD FlikLock Carbons that just arrived, have a
top and a bottom strap with a buckle.  I apply a half-twist to each
top strap (in opposite directions) before running thru the buckles,
and wind up with decidedly left- and right-handed poles.  I recommend
checking this out before tearing up your hands, and maybe looking at
Shane Steinkamp's pole tests/reviews, as he goes in to some detail on
this.

I found that the seam between the soft, white, padding in the strap,
and the bulk of the nylon strap itself was the point source of
friction.
[Edit] Remove comma after white

When used as tarp supports, I placed the handle grip down, on the
ground, and used the tips up, tarp tie-out loops over the tip.
[Edit] "When using the poles as tarp supports" reads a little better

I have not had occasion of need to remove the baskets yet. During my
initial report, I documented that the removal was possible, if not
rather difficult.
[Edit] I would remove the word not.

A bent pole, while no longer fully adjustable in in length, can still
be used and possibly bent most of the way back to vertical.
[EDIT] Extra "in"

A broken pole is simply broken and therefore unusable as a trekking
pole.
[Comment] Unless you're really, really short… :->

At 04:30 AM 2/09/2004, you wrote:
>Wondering whether there will be a September OR theme.

Bloody hell Rick ... :-)  What, the first day of Spring has not yet passed
in the USA and you are on to me for the next call :-) It is coming, it is
coming ...

Andrew


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Fuzzy" <ckime@n...> wrote:

> [Comment] Nice photos, but in the stream crossing I note that your
> hipbelt and sternum strap are still fastened.  This could be bad
news
> if you were to fall...
>

I am ashamed to say I did not even think about it, I was so focused
on getting the pics using the poles crossing the creek :$

This is particularly relevant considering this may be how the young
woman who died on the Timberline trail last week drowned while
crossing the Sandy river.  ( http://tinyurl.com/3khaz )

> The weight of the poles has increased slightly as I did add duct
tape
> and velcro straps to each pole equally.
> [EDIT] sigh… either Velcro or hook-and-loop, since Velcro is
> trademarked
> [Question] How, exactly, do you add them?

I modified the report to say double sided hook-and-loop, so the
method of attachement is simply winding/coiling it on top of itself
around the pole.


> [COMMENT] I would think that lack of handedness *should* result in
a
> mirror image.  If the straps do not provide a mirror image, that
> would indicate to me a distinct left and right.  My current poles
> (from Target), and the BD FlikLock Carbons that just arrived, have
a
> top and a bottom strap with a buckle.  I apply a half-twist to
each
> top strap (in opposite directions) before running thru the
buckles,
> and wind up with decidedly left- and right-handed poles.  I
recommend
> checking this out before tearing up your hands, and maybe looking
at
> Shane Steinkamp's pole tests/reviews, as he goes in to some detail
on
> this.

Um, not my observation...  Because they are identically threaded,
the straps exit the handle the same on both poles, so no mirroring.
I would consider a setup that was mirrored to be "handed", such as
my Leki's are.

I will look at seeing what I can do with twists and possible re-
threading the strap.

All other edits incorporated.

I will upload as soon as the "ban" has been lifted, or after I get
back from my OOP (9/8) if the "ban" has no been lifted by noon
tomorrow.

Shane "Mirage"...

Dear Group

Continuing our successful monthly call for owner reviews (exception being
July), this month's call is for one for the happy snappers and comfy
campers.  As with last month, folks who respond favourably to the monthly
call and post an approved Owner Review will get brownie points in the
shoot-out for test calls (assuming all other criteria are met). So if you
want to enhance your prospects for getting selected for a test call respond
to this call for Owner Reviews as soon as possible.

Our Call for Owner Reviews for September is for reviews on cameras and camp
chairs and seating. Using the BackpackGearTest.org website as a guide, the
sort of things we are talking about are:

Digital cameras [have to be suitable for backpacking - not sure? Ask first
please]
Film cameras [have to be suitable for backpacking - not sure? Ask first please]
Chairs
Pads [that fit into the category Camp Chairs and Seating]

Please just keep in mind we are a backpacking gear site, so your review
must be relevant. If in doubt, please ask first.

Even if there is a review on your item already in the files, post another
one! Like tests, a variety of reviews is the spice of life.

Myself, Cora, Jim, Graham and James are standing by awaiting the flood. So
get snapping.

Thanks
Andrew Priest

Uploaded version can be found here:

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/LTR%20-%20Insul%20Mat%20Max-T\
hermo%20Sleeping%20Pad%20-%20amytys/

or

http://tinyurl.com/55qt3

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Insul Mat Max-Thermo Sleeping Pad
Long Term Report

Reviewed By: Andrew Mytys
Email: amytys@...
Date Published: September 1, 2004
Update History: None

Product Information:

Manufacturer: Insul Mat
Item: Max-Thermo Sleeping Pad (http://www.pacoutdoor.com)
Item Number: 170MT-650
Year of Manufacture: 2004
MSRP: $55.00
Listed Weight: 23 oz (650 g)
Weight as Delivered: 23.9 oz (678 g), including:
   . Insul Mat Max-Thermo Sleeping Pad, 22.6 oz (641 g)
   . Stuff Sack, 0.7 oz (20 g)
   . Patch Kit, 0.6 oz (17 g)
Size: 20 x 72 x 2.5 inches (51 x 183 x 6.3 cm) [w] x [l] x [d]
Measured Size: 21.7 x 71.7 x 3.5 inches (55 x 182 x 9 cm) [w] x [l] x [d], with
a 0.3 inch (7.6 mm) seam around the mat's border
Measured Size, Packed: 11 x 5.5 inch (28 x 14 cm) cylinder, with a 16.5 inch (42
cm) circumference
R-Value: N/A
Color: Red/Black
Warranty: Lifetime warranty against defects in material and workmanship
Manufactured In: China

The information in this Field Report of the Insuil Mat "Max-Thermo" Sleeping Pad
is to be taken in addition to my Initial and Long Term Reports.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Product Description:

A full length, 3-season inflatable sleeping pad that uses synthetic fill
insulation within its construction in order to reduce the effect of convective
heat loss.


A Summary of My Experiences:

Inflating the pad - On average, I find that after a long day of hiking I can
inflate the Insul Mat Max-Thermal Sleeping Pad in about 20 breaths. It takes me
about 90-seconds to inflate the mattress, allowing for about three seconds of
time for each puff of breath sent into the pad. The manufacturer recommends,
"It is most comfortable... when the mat is not filled to trampoline like
firmness." I'm not sure what this means, but I like a firm sleeping surface
underneath me. I inflate the pad up until a point where I feel resistance when
blowing air into the mattress, and then close the valve. With this amount of
air inside the pad, I can place my thumb and index finger against the top and
bottom of the pad and pinch them together. At the same time, lying on the pad
results in a feeling of total support, with no sag whatsoever. I can also turn
onto my side and not feel that I am touching the ground.

One curiosity that I have noticed is that, when inflated to a maximum level, the
pad doesn't retain its firmness for long. Although it is imperceptible, the
valve that's used to inflate the pad slowly lets out a few puffs of air until
the level of air pressure held within the pad is decreased. The pad does not
continue to lose air over time until it goes flat though - once the air
pressure is at a level that the valve can keep at bay, no further pressure is
lost. I made sure that the valve was screwed on as tight as was possible
without the use of tools, and a small amount of air still escaped. I feel that
the end result falls in line with the level of firmness that Insul Mat
recommends.


Cushioning provided by the pad - What I really found amazing about the
Max-Thermo sleeping pad was the level of cushion it provided - I could have the
pad positioned on top of roots or over rough-surfaced rocks and not feel any
intrusions while lying on top of it. Even when I lay on my side, with my hip
pressed down on the pad, I felt no disturbances.


Insulation provided by the pad - To date, I've not found myself exposed to
temperatures below the upper 30's (~3 C). In conditions above freezing, I have
not experienced any cold spots while sleeping on the Max-Thermo pad.


Maneuvering the pad - Fully inflated to my liking, the Insul Mat is stiff and
about as maneuverable as a surfboard. If I suddenly decide that I want the head
of the mattress facing in the opposite direction, turning the mattress around
may not be an easy task - depending on the size of the shelter, there may be
too much air in the mattress to allow it to be folded in half. On one occasion,
where I was sharing the space of a small tent with my wife, we decided it would
be best to rotate our sleeping positions, and hence my mattress, to face the
opposite side of the tent. I had to open the valve in order to allow enough air
to escape so that I could fold the mattress in half. Only then could I move the
pad into its new position, and then finish by blowing in the air that was lost
during the process back into the pad. In terms of moving the pad while I'm
lying on it, it is a simple enough task. Because the Insul Mat tapers at its
foot and head, it feels very natural to place my feet and elbows onto the floor
of the shelter, to either side of the pad. Once my feet and elbows are in
position, I just lift my body off of the pad, grab the sides of the pad with my
fingers, and adjust its position under my body.


Lying on the pad - I find that it is very easy to remain on the pad during the
course of the night. With a makeshift pillow of some sort under my head, such
as spare clothing in a stuff-sack, I do not feel the six air chambers that run
down the pad's length under my head. The chambers are not felt by any other
part of my body either, even when I'm sleeping with my body pressed directly
against the pad. Also, I have yet to feel any rocks or roots through the pad.
In contrast, hard elements were felt through one-inch thick (25 mm)
self-inflating pads tested over the same area - The Insul Mat clearly provides
more comfort than other pads of similar weight.


Tossing and turning throughout the night - I've yet to slide off to the side of
the Insul Mat pad, even though I find myself frequently changing sleeping
positions from back, to side, to stomach.


Sleeping on an angle - When sleeping at an angle where my head was higher than
my feet, I found myself sliding toward the low-end of the mattress. The pad
itself did not move, even when the floor underneath was constructed of a
slippery surface such as SilNylon. The result was that I awoke with my feet off
the mattress, my sliding stopped either by the rear wall of my tent or due to my
feet pressing against the floor of the shelter. Moving myself back into my
preferred position on the pad was a simple task that required no real effort or
strain.


A comfortable night's rest? - The times where I found myself waking up at night
while sleeping on the Insul Mat pad were all due to either drops in
temperatures, requiring me to either crawl into my sleeping bag or to put a hat
on my head, or to sudden urges to relieve mounting pressures within my bladder.
Unlike my experiences with other pads, there were no instances where, for
example, I shifted onto my side and awoke due to a root digging into my hip, or
where I slept with my arms supporting my head and awoke with a "pricking"
feeling in my fingers caused by a lack of blood circulating to them.


Get up you lazy bum - The valve used to inflate the pad is easy to open, but
tends to require two hands, with one hand holding its base and the other
turning its cap. Unlike other, self-inflating mattresses that I've used, my
wife can't simply reach over and twist my valve open when I'm being lazy and
trying to sleep in a little.


Packing it all away - I really like how easy the Insul Mat is to pack. First, I
open the valve and lie on the pad, allowing my body weight to force out the
majority of the air trapped within. Then, I fold the pad lengthwise into three
sections, using the gaps between the six air chambers as guides. The result is
a sandwich, where each layer is comprised of two air chambers. I then fold the
pad over again three times, in the direction of the pad's valve. This second
round of folding pushes more air out of the mattress. Next, I roll up the
folded pad, which forces the remaining air out of the pad. Finally, I close the
valve and drop the pad into its stuff-sack. There's no real force or compression
involved in this system, and the stuff-sack is ample enough in size such that
the pad can be effortlessly placed inside.

After I completed two months of field-testing, I stopped using the pad's stuff
sack altogether. Today, I simply fold the pad into a small rectangular shape
and shove it down against the inner wall of my pack's main chamber. The pad
always finds the needed space to squeeze into what seems to be a fully packed
backpack.


Storage - The pad's insulation comes from synthetic fibers inside its chambers.
I tend to shun compressing my insulation for long periods of time, out of fear
that it will be crushed and, in the process, lose its loft and insulating
properties. I always stored my pad between trips under my bed in a partially
inflated state.


Durability - After six months of use, the pad still looks new. I didn't perform
any maintenance on the pad outside of brushing and blowing dirt off of it.


Areas That Could Be Improved:

The Insul Mat Max-Thermo pad is just about perfect. I trust that the
manufacturer will always be looking for opportunities to cut a few ounces off
the pad's weight, while retaining its level of performance and durability. The
one change I would like to see lays in the design of the pad's air chambers -
I'd like to see the area at the head of the pad be comprised of a single,
smooth chamber that would act as a pillow. Today, the head tends to be
supported in the valleys formed between the chambers that run down the pad's
length. To get around any comfort issues found in the current design, I place a
stuff sack filled with clothing under my head.


Addendum:

In the upcoming weeks, I will be using the Insul Mat Max-Thermo Sleeping Pad on
a high-altitude trip in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks. Winter
conditions can strike early when in the mountains, so I may find myself using
the pad in conditions colder than what I've experienced thus far. I will be
sure to update this report upon my return. I will also amend this long-term
report after I've had a chance to use this pad over a few nights this winter.
Stay tuned...


Personal Biographical Information:

Reviewer: Andrew Mytys
Email: amytys@...
Homepage: Andy's Lightweight Backpacking Site
Location: Michigan
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Height: 6'1" (185 cm)
Weight: 165 lb (75 kg)


Backpacking Background:

I live in Michigan and have been hiking seriously for 15 years, although I've
camped since I was 6 years old. I consider myself a lightweight hiker. I carry
the lightest gear I can get my hands on which will provide a comfortable
wilderness experience and adequately support the goals of my trip. Unless my
goals are time/distance oriented, my pace is always slow. I rarely exceed 1.5
miles (2.4 km)/hour. I rest frequently, hike long days, and enjoy whatever
nature throws my way.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems that folks uploading to the test area since yesterday aren't
getting their names put in next to their uploads, nor is the option
to delete present.

This might be something you guys did on purpose to keep folks from
deleting reports while you're waiting for the system fix to get in.

Sorry I uploaded to test... read the alert after I did so.


.andy

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Priest <andrew@a...>
wrote:
>
>
> Digital cameras [have to be suitable for backpacking - not sure?
> Ask first please]
> Film cameras [have to be suitable for backpacking - not sure? Ask
> first please]

Please... any photo nut will tell you that there is no such thing as
a camera that's not suitable... unless we're talking about the crappy
digi-cam that's built into your phone :)

In the past year, the biggest beast I've taking backpacking is my
Mamiya C330 TLR... and I'm even thinking about taking it on next
week's trip to Yellowstone/Tetons.

If an Alice pack can be used for backpackpacking...  :)

A good rule of thumb may be... if the camera can capture the moment,
it's suitable for review!

Hi George,

Excellent report!  It's been a pleasure working with you on this test
series.

Tim

I have been backpacking since 1986. Mainly in the Peak District, Lake
District,
Wales and Southern England. I am also the London liaison member for
the
Backpackers Club. In the early days I backpacked solo but in recent
years I have
backpacked with two friends. Most of my trips are from September
through to May,
I normally get four 4+ day trips in that time, plus the occasional
weekend. The
past three years I have undertaken a multi-day (6/7 Days) backpacking
trip
somewhere in the U.K.

##Comment: Still not sure where you went?  ;)
Just kidding!

Terrain and elevation on these trips can be anything from coastal
paths to
mountains, sea level to 3,000-ft (914 m). Temperatures ranges from -5
C to 23 C
(23 F to 75 F).

##Suggestion: I would suggest that you keep the order the same, for
it makes for easier reading – i.e. standard units first, followed by
metric.  Your call, of course.


Colour: Red (top)/Black (bottom)

##Comment:  "Color" - Someone needs to inform the British, Aussies
and Canadians on the proper spelling of this word….  ;)

Long Term Testing

This sleeping pad has been used through all of the British seasons;

##Comment: What…rain and fog?  Sorry George, I'm on a roll tonight!



My views on this pad haven't changed from my field report except that
I have

##EDIT: minor thing…."Field Report"

worked out how to inflate to the same pressure nearly every time now.



I did try the pad with the G4 but is wasn't really that good; once
the air is
out of the pad there isn't much to it (unlike a thermarest)

##EDIT: I believe "Thermarest" should be capitalized.

so placing it into
the mesh pocket doesn't give enough support.

In my initial report I posed some questions about the pad; these were:

##EDIT: "Initial Report"…

2. Warm; the lowest temperature that I used the pad was -5 C (23 F)
back in
February and I never noticed it, the pad keeps you a good 2 ½ in (6.3
cm) off
the ground and the synthetic fill was able to stop any cold passing
through.
During the Summer months I didn't notice at any time that the pad was
making me
to hot.

##EDIT: …too hot…

> Seems that folks uploading to the test area since yesterday
> aren't getting their names put in next to their uploads, nor
> is the option to delete present.

Yeah.  That's why the warning not to upload...

Dawn...

:)

Shane

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp"
<shane@t...> wrote:
> Doh!  I didn't even do well enough not to repost.  How embarassing.
> I need to get with the program...

You probably complained about something and the edit gods are getting
back at you or something... ;-)

>
> Thank you for your service.  Time has sort of caught up with me, so I
> will edit and repost on Tuesday.  I will be OOP this weekend, likely
> with no internet access.

No sweat. I'm holding down the edit fort so I've got some reposts to
get to and then some more ORs to keep from getting stale.

Jimn

Hi Seth,

Thanks for a great report and a great test series.  I'm sure we'll
work again soon.

Tim

I tried the sleeping pad in my apartment pool

##Comment: Cool!  Got a pool in your apartment, huh?  ;)


and it worked
well as a flotation device. I could lay on it and float
around just fine in the water. It did not seem to soak up
any water. Although I have not seen it advertised as being
water-proof, it is made out of a slick nylon material that
water just rolls off of.

##Suggestion:  Mrs. Benstead taught me to never end a sentence with a
preposition, especially a double presposition!

  Thank you very much to
POE and Backpackgeartest

##EDIT: It's "BackpackGearTest"….

for letting me test the Max Thermo
- I think it is a great product and I will continue using
it as my primary sleeping pad, in all seasons.

> Please... any photo nut will tell you that there is no such
> thing as a camera that's not suitable... unless we're
> talking about the crappy digi-cam that's built into your
> phone :)

As I qualify as a photo nut, I think that I qualify to respond.

I carry a crapload of photo equipment while backpacking.  I think that the
point is that we want to review cameras that an average backpacker would be
interested in, FROM THE STANDPOINT of its use BY a backpacker.  There are
far too many excellent camera review sites to compete with.  A camera review
for backpackers should keep the context in mind.

> In the past year, the biggest beast I've taking backpacking
> is my Mamiya C330 TLR... and I'm even thinking about taking
> it on next week's trip to Yellowstone/Tetons.

With a peice of gear like that, is your trip a photography trip that
includes some backpacking, or a backpacking trip that includes some
photography?

Personally, I go either way sometimes...

> If an Alice pack can be used for backpackpacking...  :)

Don't go slanderin' Alice, or we'll sic Fuzzy on you...

> A good rule of thumb may be... if the camera can capture the
> moment, it's suitable for review!

It may very well be, but the review should have the backpacking angle well
in hand.

Shane

> Andy,

It turned out that Shane and I were writing responses at the same time.  This
was mine.
>
> I have heard it said that there was a fellow that showed up 30 miles
> into the Appalachian Trail a couple years ago with a full SCUBA outfit.
> I guess that "any SCUBA nut" might say that all SCUBA outfits are
> suitable for backpacking.  ;)
>
> But most hikers would not say that the SCUBA outfit is a match with
> hiking, nor that some heavy Rolex SLR 120 size film camera is a great
> thing to throw in the pack.
>
> What is more useful, is to write a review of a camera which has some
> features which make it especially backpacking friendly.  Light, small,
> waterproof, easy to replace or charge batteries - these are features
> that come to my mind as backpacking friendly.  I am sure there are
> others features that could make the camera perfect for backpacking as
> well.
>
> In the end, what is most useful to BackpackGearTest are reviews of
> cameras that people searching the internet for "backpacking camera"
> might like to find.  Maybe if enough people do search for cameras on
> BGT, we will be able to persuade a camera manufacturer to let us test
> one of their cameras and they can use those reviews to market the camera
> to outdoor enthusiasts.
>
> So, like Andrew Priest, our List Moderator, asked before, if a potential
> OR writer has a concern about whether a specific kind of camera is in
> the right ballpark, they only need to ask.
>
> Rick
>
> Andy Mytys wrote:
>
> >--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Priest <andrew@a...>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Digital cameras [have to be suitable for backpacking - not sure?
> >>Ask first please]
> >>Film cameras [have to be suitable for backpacking - not sure? Ask
> >>first please]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Please... any photo nut will tell you that there is no such thing as
> >a camera that's not suitable... unless we're talking about the crappy
> >digi-cam that's built into your phone :)
> >
> >In the past year, the biggest beast I've taking backpacking is my
> >Mamiya C330 TLR... and I'm even thinking about taking it on next
> >week's trip to Yellowstone/Tetons.
> >
> >If an Alice pack can be used for backpackpacking...  :)
> >
> >A good rule of thumb may be... if the camera can capture the moment,
> >it's suitable for review!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bgt_moderator mailing list
> Bgt_moderator@...
> http://backpackgeartest.org/mailman/listinfo/bgt_moderator_backpac
kgeartest.org


_______________________________________________
Bgt_moderator mailing list
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Todd,
Nicely done. I've found a few more minor items that snuck through (or
I missed the first time). Once you've made the changes you can upload
it to BGT at:
http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Packs/Internal%20and%20External%20Framed\
%20Backpacks/Imlay%20Canyon%20Gear%20Kolob%20Pack/
or
http://tinyurl.com/5r39o
<<<<<Use either link>>>>>

When uploading your Owner Review, please ensure you select the button
marked Owner Review.

Thanks again for the excellent work.
Jim
Edit Moderator


--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Todd"
<todds_hiking_guide@y...> wrote:
> Capacity: 2450 Cubic Inches (40 liters)

### "cubic inches"

> Material: 1000 denier Cordura fabric with heavy duty mesh side panals

### "panels"

> allows the pack to drain quickly after dragging the pack through a
> wet canyon pot hole or pool. Other features include:

### "pothole"
>
> Inside:
> * An 0.75 inch (1.9 cm) foam back pad in a zippered pocket which

### "A 0.75"

> protects the wearers back from sharp or hard items in the pack, and

### "wearer's back"

> also doubles as an emergency bivy pad should you have to spend an

### "should I have" or something similar

> * Optional: Removable aluminum frame which adds rigidity to the pack
> for those trips where you are carrying a heavier load.

### "those trips when carrying a heavier" or something similar

> 1000 denier cordura. The sides of the pack and extension collar are

### "Cordura"

> difficult getting them into the pack once it's been filled with the
> rest of your gear. The bladder is placed in a mesh pocket which

### "rest of the gear." or something similar

>
> Okay but what about that wet suit and extra water bottle I couldn't

### Usually "wetsuit" but "wet suit" is occasionally used as well.
Your call.

> water bottle and it will fit one as large as a 2-liter (0.5 gallons)

### "gallon"

> too far from the packs center of gravity. I've mainly been using it

### "pack's center"

> pack fills with water instantly when you get into the water, so it

### "when it goes into"

> the same abrasion resistance as the cordura fabric, particularly

### "Cordura"

> Rear stow pocket doesn't hold items very securely, particularly if
> throwing the pack into canyon pot holes

### "potholes"

Heather,
Good job on the edits. I've found a couple minor things and since I'm
asking for a little addition, I'd like to run this through the cycle
one more time (since we can't upload right now anyway, it shouldn't
delay things any). Once you've made the changes and the additions
please repost it with REPOST in the subject line & I will pick it up
for one last review before giving you the info on where to upload it
in order to get it onto BGT.

Again, thanks for the attention to the edits.

Jim

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "alekto" <alekto@y...> wrote:

> Weight: 140lbs (64 kg)

### "140 lbs"

> Date: 8/31/04

### "August 31, 2004" is preferred so as not to confuse our European
readers who use the dd-mm-yy format


> MSRP: US 115

### "USD 115" or "$115 US"

> miles (8.05-20.921 km) on trails of varying conditions. These hikes

### One decimal point of precision on conversions is enough

>
> In May, I hiked over 40 miles (64.374 km) of the Appalachian Trail in

### One decimal point of precision on conversions is enough

> Georgia in 4 days 3 nights. The conditions were mildly humid on all
> but one day when it rained moderately. My pack weighed over 30 lbs
> (480 oz), so I utilized Dr. Scholl's Tri-Comfort Orthotics insoles

### Metric conversion would be kg in this case, not oz.

> Two overnight backpacking reports; the first being 7 miles (11.3 km)
> in 5 miles (8.05 km) out in the Cohutta Wilderness, the second being

### One decimal point of precision is fine (or "8 km" in this case)

> the strenuous Coosa Backcountry Trail in North Georgia of which no
> <snip>
> in a few inches of mud. I am happy to report I only slid once with no
> injuries.

### Interesting but you seem to have left us hanging. What happened of
note to the shoes on this one? Anything untoward (or not) come of the
minor bushwhacking you did? How did you clean them of the mud? Any
estimate on # of miles? It helps to give a better idea of how many
total miles you've put on these.

> waterproofing addition of the Gore-Tex to be my trade off. I would
> give the Montrails an average in keeping my feet dry from the normal

### I presume you mean "average grade"

> sweat and humidity of the South, but had these been tested in a lower

### "in lower"

I really am keen to test these. The first pair found their way to my house
OK.
Maybe they changed the navigation software.
Stu

>>Andrew and all -
>>
>>Unfortunately, Stu still has not received the proper
>>sizing for the Nimbles.  Perhaps they are just falling
>>into the Pacific on the way over?  Whatever the cause,
>>it is a tough situation looking at it from any angle
>>-- no shoes, no FR, no testing has yet been able to be
>>performed as far as Stu has told me.
>>
>>Either way, Stu should certainly not be held
>>accountable for the FR while the next step gets
>>figured out.  I know Rebecca has bugged Dunham to no
>>end, and although that got Curt his shoes, are there
>>still options for another pair?  Just let me know how
>>I can help.
>
>Hi Cora
>
>Thanks. I am aware of Stu's situation and you can rest assured that no
>blame will be apportioned to him unless of course we find out his wardrobe
>is full of nimbles :-).
>
>Andrew

Russell,
Good job. A couple of very minor things to fix and then you can
upload it to BGT (once Shane or Rick say it's okay to upload again) at
this url:
http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Camp%20Chairs%20and%20Seating/Chairs/Sli\
ng-Light%20Backpack%20Camp%20Chair/
or
http://tinyurl.com/63enm
<<<<<Use either link>>>>>

When uploading your Owner Review, please ensure you select the button
marked Owner Review.

If you require assistance with your upload, please ask in our Yahoo!
support group, BGTFileUploadHelp @
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BGTFileUploadHelp/

You may also find it useful to make use of the test upload folder at
Reviews >Test or http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test to test
your upload before uploading the review to its new home.

Thanks again for the excellent work.
Jim
Edit Moderator

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "mrqcace" <mrqcace@y...> wrote:

> I began backpacking in the late 60's but only in earnest 7 years

### Technically "60s" but almost no one else notices & won't ding you
for it.

> Weight: 	 Chair: 18 oz  (510 g), Optional Headrest: 4 oz  (113 g)

### Tested or manufacturer advertised weight? You should include both.

> Size: 		 26" x 16" x 1.5" (66cm x 41cm x 3cm, folded up)

### space before unit abbreviations "66 cm"...

> clips that will attach to the mainframe to form an extension of the

### "main frame" (mainframe is a computer <g>)

> chair to rest my head on.  There is a V- shaped aluminum frame that

### "V-shaped"

> The first time I took the Sling-Light chair out was on a 40-mile (64
> km)hike

### "km) hike"

> Because of the ease to adapt it to any pack I use, and its
> lightweight, it has become one of the required items on my gear list.

### "light weight"

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Rick Allnutt <rick@b...>
wrote:
>
> What is more useful, is to write a review of a camera which has
> some features which make it especially backpacking friendly.
> Light, small, waterproof, easy to replace or charge batteries -
> these are features that come to my mind as backpacking friendly.

What concerns me here is that the "lightweight elitist mentality" is
sneaking into BGT via the backdoor of the camera.

Now, don't get me wrong... I'm not calling anyone an elitist here.
I am just saying that just like we open our reviews up to UL, LW,
MidWt, and HEAVY backpacking gear, we should't limit our camera
reviews.

I backpack with a camera.  Always have, probably always will.  My
primary concern is that I can take quality pictures, which means I'm
more interested in things like the lens quality, aperture range,
manual focus options, flash ranges... things those credit card
cameras that the UL hikers carry just don't have.  While a lot of
people take these tiny, lightweight cameras backpacking and are
perfectly happy with them.  I'm a backpacker that wouldn't touch
them.

Then there's issues surrounding environment and camera durability.
When I'm really worried about rain, sand, etc, I pull out my Nikonos
waterproof camera (it's used by divers, but because it's sealed
makes a great beater land camera).

> In the end, what is most useful to BackpackGearTest are reviews of
> cameras that people searching the internet for "backpacking camera"
> might like to find. Maybe if enough people do search for cameras on
> BGT, we will be able to persuade a camera manufacturer to let us
> test one of their cameras and they can use those reviews to market
> the camera to outdoor enthusiasts.

BGT didn't get successful by targeting just one segment of gear.  We
opened our site up so people could write reviews on WHATEVER gear
they took into the field with them.  It didn't even have to be this
years model... and it still doesn't.

If we're entertaining cameras, then I think we should trat them in
the same manner as any other gear... it's ALL GOOD!  Let's not
forget about our roots, and how we got to where we are.

Edward,
Thank you for your attention to this edit. I've responded to your
questions/comments as well as flagged a couple of minor edits. Please
make these changes and repost with REPOST in the subject. I'll pick it
up for a final review and provide instructions on where to upload to
BGT (once the upload moratorium has been lifted).

Thanks again for the rework,
Jim
Edit Moderator

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "edwardripleyduggan"
<erd@w...> wrote:

> I've made most of the changes requested, although I want to note that
> according to universally recognized library cataloguing standards
> (OCLC, RLIN etc.) the height(of text block) alone is given, not all

### Except that this is BGT and have different standards. Please make
all of the edit changes I flag unless I've made an obvious error due
to lack of sleep.

> dimensions (the rare exception is when a book is in an atypical
> format, and usually not even then). This avoids the question of "which
> dimension is which"; in addition, dimensions may vary between the
> hardcover and paperback versions. Therefore, I would prefer to leave

### You simply measure the version you are reviewing (paperback or
hard cover) and report it as Y" tall by W" wide by Z" thick followed
by their metric conversions. Simple & straightforward.

> the simple vertical dimension for the pb., unless you feel this is in
> some way essential information. In our BGT context, this is most
> definitely not a field guide, where size etc. may be more crucial.

### Whether someone would carry this or not is not our call (and would
be projecting by the way). So, the dimensions & weight of the book are
important. I know lots of folks who take either a whole book or parts
of books with them and use the sections they've read for various camp
chores like TP or fire starting so a large size doesn't equate to
"uncarryable". In fact, IIRC, this tip may be in this very book.

>
> Also, pagination is usually indicated in a description exactly as
> given in the book; it's customary among publishers to number
> preliminaries, including title-page and preface, in Roman. I have,
> however, expanded the description to state what those preliminaries are.

### Unfortunately it's cryptic. A simple "X pages" is straightforward.
Does "xiv preliminary" mean 14 pages before the body starts? It's far
clearer to say "860 total pages"


> Height 23.5 cm/9 in (softcover edition)

### See comments above. Full dimensions and weight with metrics please.

> xiv preliminary pp. (including title, preface etc.), 845 pp. text,
> plus 1 terminal leaf with the author biographies and a description of

### See comments above. How many pages will I count if I start at the
beginning?

>
> The first edition of Colin Fletcher's venerable guide for the
> backpacker appeared in 1968, and had a mere 353 pages. Fletcher's

### This is where your page count approach falls down...is this 353
text pages, 353 pages with preliminary pages & text pages, or 353
total including the flysheet, etc.? But as you've found, 353 is an
easy number to use as would 860 for this version.


> perplex you? All you are likely to want to know (and perhaps more) can

### This flirts with projection except that the "likely" modifier
allows it to skirt that issue. However, it's good practice to avoid
all usage of "you", "yours", "you'll", "you're", etc.


> earlier edition (vapor barriers in particular come to mind, which

### superfluous ( in front of vapor

I am thinking of doing an Owner Review of my Hubbard Scientific raised
relief maps.  I have a large mosaic of Northern California on my wall,
which has been a great resource for trip planning, etc.

Would this be a good thing for a BGT Owner Review?

-Joe

TJ,
Nicely done. I've found a couple of very minor things that once you've
fixed you can upload (after the current upload moratorium that is) the
review to BGT at:

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Footwear/Boots/folder.php?operation=mkdi\
r
or
http://tinyurl.com/52dwg
<<<<<Use either link>>>>>

When uploading your Owner Review, please ensure you select the button
marked Owner Review.

If you require assistance with your upload, please ask in our Yahoo!
support group, BGTFileUploadHelp @
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BGTFileUploadHelp/

You may also find it useful to make use of the test upload folder at
Reviews >Test or http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test to test
your upload before uploading the review to its new home.

Thanks again for the nice work.
Jim
Edit Moderator


--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony \(TJ\) Smith"
<tj@l...> wrote:
> 100 F (37.78 C)  .  However, due to most of my hiking being in Florida,

### ")." --- extra spacing after the parenthesis


> unavoidable puddles in these locations.  Of course, this could also be

### "Of course, I expect this could also" -- without having done this
you're projecting a conclusion not based in fact. Adding the "I
expect" puts it back into a defensible statement (after all it's
entirely possible that with a Nikwax coating it will still leak).

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp" >
> > In the past year, the biggest beast I've taking backpacking
> > is my Mamiya C330 TLR... and I'm even thinking about taking
> > it on next week's trip to Yellowstone/Tetons.
>
> With a peice of gear like that, is your trip a photography trip
> that includes some backpacking, or a backpacking trip that
> includes some photography?
>

It shouldn't matter... the point is that the review talks about how
the camera performed, both in terms of it's application at capturing
the moment in the field and as "baggage" being carried into the
field.

Some backpackers will be AT thru-hikers wanting to document their
journey, yet still concentrate on doing so in the most efficient,
lightweight, manner as possible.  That's fine.

Other's might be taking a less ambitious hike, with low mileage
days, and wanting to capure their experiences in great technical
detail (I can provide links to backpacker pages that have pictures
taken with HEAVY cameras).

I can definitely see the value of a review on a traditional film-
based camera, either 35mm SLR or some other format.  Reading about
what the tradeoffs are provides the type of real-world feedback our
readers have come to expect of BGT.  Readers can then make up their
own minds.  Perhaps someone will go by some lightweight digital
camera after reading what a pain it is to take a 35mm camera into
the field, or they might abandon their purchase of a digicam because
it doesn't sound that bad to them.  It's not our decision to make by
limiting our scope of review.

> It shouldn't matter... the point is that the review talks
> about how the camera performed, both in terms of it's
> application at capturing the moment in the field and as
> "baggage" being carried into the field.

I agree.  My point is that BGT reviews of cameras should be focused on those
aspects of the camera that make it attractive to backpackers.  IIRC, that's
why Jerry said it was OK to have them in the first place.  There are many
excellent camera review sites.  If I want to know about the technical
aspects of a camera, I'll go to one of those sites.

Photographic equipment is NOT backpacking gear.  A large enough portion of
the backpacking population carries cameras, though, so that's our angle.

Shane

--- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Joe Martinez <joe@j...>
wrote:
>
> I am thinking of doing an Owner Review of my Hubbard Scientific
> raised relief maps.  I have a large mosaic of Northern California
> on my wall, which has been a great resource for trip planning, etc.
>
> Would this be a good thing for a BGT Owner Review?
>
> -Joe


I would think so.  I had one of these for the Reds Meadow area that
I bought at Devil's Postpile National Monument, IIRC.  I'd be
interested in things like how you got it (via mail?), in what
condition it arrived, how you use it to plan trips, etc.

Let's face it, some folks just can't read a topo map.  Others just
have minds that can't convert 2d into 3d.  Seeing it all laid out on
a scale model, including trails, makes it real easy to get a feel
for the relief and how it will effect your hike.