I'd still like to see a  pic of the  fabric  There are a lot of  floral  designs
where what we see in the  flower  looks like a paisley.  Most  inspired  by 
Turkish  and Persian silks. This fabric  may still be usable elsewhere  It may 
be  useful for something else.

Cheers

Satine

--- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "jewett_christine" <dystopic@...> wrote:
>
>
> I examined it a bit closer and I think it may be too close to paisley.
> Gosh darn! Well, maybe it will make good curtains... :P
>
> If I did want to make a patterned kirtle, say like the one in this
> painting (the orange one on the left):
>
> http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/g/goes/calvary/calvar21.jpg
> <http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/g/goes/calvary/calvar21.jpg>
>
> ...what fabric would you recommend?
>
> Gwnnil
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Very well - I'll get a pic of it. :D
Gwnnil

--- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Satine" <ladysatinedelacourcel@...>
wrote:
>
> I'd still like to see a  pic of the  fabric  There are a lot of  floral 
designs where what we see in the  flower  looks like a paisley.  Most  inspired 
by  Turkish  and Persian silks. This fabric  may still be usable elsewhere  It
may  be  useful for something else.
>
> Cheers
>
> Satine

It's a one color print, but very fine. (But then you'll see that once I have a
pic to show. :D)
Gwnnil

> That said, modern printed patterns tend to be more elaborate and colorful. 
Blockprinted fabrics used a single color for the design, with secondary colors
sparingly used as highlights.
>
> - Fredeburg

On Oct 19, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Fredeburg wrote:
> The Victoria and Albert museum has a number of extent woodblock
> printed linen fabric pieces.  They include a variety of floral and
> vinework designs, some containing figures and animals.
>
> http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O148454/printed-linen/
>
> http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O129528/printed-linen/
>
> Blockprinting was also used to imitate brocade patterns.
>
> Cennini (The Book of the Art) says to use a woodblock the size of a
> brick with a pattern "in the manner of any sort of silk stuff you
> like, either leaves or animals; and let the design be so arranged
> and engraved on the block that all four faces may match together to
> make a complete and connected pattern"
>
> That said, modern printed patterns tend to be more elaborate and
> colorful.  Blockprinted fabrics used a single color for the design,
> with secondary colors sparingly used as highlights.

Yes, that's almost exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. A
complex carving to be sure, but without extremely fine detail or any
kind of shading. That's an excellent pattern! Too bad it's not a
complete single repeat. It would be great to see someone reproduce it.
--
                                     Auf wiedersehen!
Michael
    ______________________________________________________
    "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

    "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
    of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
    women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

    "..No."

    "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                                     -Real Genius

Thank you so much for posting these links.  I have heard people talk about the
possibilities of printed linen in period, but had never seen an image of any. 
This is very exciting.


Brad Moore 

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a
merrier world."
- J.R.R. Tolkien

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 10/18/2011 10:25 PM, jewett_christine wrote:
> I couldn't resist buying some fabric that is printed in black with an
elaborate floral design that at first glance looks like paisley, but isn't. I've
seen paintings of kirtles in what could be printed fabric. I think this fabric
would make an awesome kirtle - but I'm worrying that the pattern is too out of
place. I don't want to walk around KNOWING that the fabric is a totally wrong
fit for the period! What is everyone's opinion on this? Would something like
what I've described be TOO anachronistic?
>
> Re: Italian Gown - I have started the first muslin bodice. I think I may be on
the right track!

What paintings do you have in mind?  There's paintings of women wearing
kirtles made from brocaded fabric, but the only printed fabrics I know
of in period are Russian and fairly primitive.

That being said, I'd worry less about whether the fabric is printed or
not and more about how close the design looks to a period design.

--
Cathy Raymond
cathy@...

"Beware how you take away hope from another human being."
--Oliver Wendell Holmes

What's wrong with paisley, exactly? My understanding is that the shape
is derived from the butt end of the fist (the part we tell kids to stick
in paint and then daub 5 points above it to look like a foot).

Sayyeda al-Kaslaania

On Oct 19, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Sayyeda al-Kaslaania wrote:
> What's wrong with paisley, exactly? My understanding is that the shape
> is derived from the butt end of the fist (the part we tell kids to
> stick
> in paint and then daub 5 points above it to look like a foot).

Nothing inherently wrong with it. It just wasn't introduced to Western
Europe until after our period and certainly far later than the 15th
century kirtles the original poster seems to be wanting to make.
--
                                     Auf wiedersehen!
Michael
    ______________________________________________________
    "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

    "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
    of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
    women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

    "..No."

    "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                                     -Real Genius

On Oct 19, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Sayyeda al-Kaslaania wrote:
> What's wrong with paisley, exactly? My understanding is that the shape
> is derived from the butt end of the fist (the part we tell kids to
> stick in paint and then daub 5 points above it to look like a foot).

It is my understanding that 'paisley' as we know it, those scattered
multicolored 'twisted raindrops' was a patterning design originating in
Paisley, England as an adaption of ME flower designs. I have found good
flower-patterns in fabric that are quite close (or in one case, sadly a
rayon that I bought anyway, it was an exact replica of fabric I'd seen on
Ottoman Turkish clothing in a museum visit), anyway, you can find them but
it is time consuming and difficult.

I no longer sew Ottoman clothing so my reference materials have been given
away to friends who do, but to give you an idea of the general 'look' (after
a *very* quick Google search, which isn't giving me anything spot-on), check
out these. You can see how the flower petals, the side ones especially,
ended up inspiring our modern concept of paisley:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/?period=08®ion=eusb#/Works-of-Art
(scroll down to "textile fragment"- 16th century example)

http://artappreciationclassblog.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html
(scroll d-o-w-n to 'early islamic tile' and below - 16th century example)

http://www.zazzle.com/traditional_ottoman_tulip_pattern_asian_art_magnet-147
152603861844315

http://www.zazzle.com/traditional_islamic_floral_design_tiles_mousepad-14452
4537872850256

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-73637809/stock-vector-ottoman-seamless-color
-wallpaper-vector-design-on-light-background.html

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-73637818/stock-vector-ottoman-seamless-wallp
aper-vector-design-on-grey-background.html


Hrothny

The Paisley motif originated much further east than England, and is
generally identified as being a stylized leaf.



Laurie



   _____

From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:03 PM
To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Paisley?





What's wrong with paisley, exactly? My understanding is that the shape
is derived from the butt end of the fist (the part we tell kids to stick
in paint and then daub 5 points above it to look like a foot).

Sayyeda al-Kaslaania





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
> What's wrong with paisley, exactly? My understanding is that the shape
> is derived from the butt end of the fist (the part we tell kids to stick
> in paint and then daub 5 points above it to look like a foot).

Hrothny
> It is my understanding that 'paisley' as we know it, those scattered
> multicolored 'twisted raindrops' was a patterning design originating in
> Paisley, England as an adaption of ME flower designs.

What i have read is that the paisley motif originally derives from a Persian
motif called boteh. Modern paisley prints on fabric are usually
multi-directional, so it doesn't matter how you place your pattern pieces on it,
and they look - to quote someone else - like "an explosion in an amoeba
factory". In or near SCA-period, however, boteh were aligned and oriented in one
direction.

The boteh motif, sometimes characterized as a twisted teardrop or kidney-shaped,
is believed to derive from one or a combination of motifs: a stylized floral
spray, a leaf, a cypress, pine, or palm tree, and/or a Zoroastrian tree of life
motif. The boteh originated in Sassanid Persia (ca. 200–650 AD). It appears in
the Safavid Dynasty (1501-1736) - i've seen it on 17th c. textiles, but so far i
don't recall any definitively 16th c. textile with boteh. And it was frequently
used in the Qajar Dynasty (1785-1925), also written Ghajar or Kadjar, which like
to recall the Sassanid.

The word "paisley" derives from the name of the Scottish city in which were
woven less expensive imitations of Kashmiri silk-decorated fine cashmere wool
shawls throughout the 19th c. The South Asian complex handwoven shawls - twill
woven with a tapestry embellishment technique - had become desirable by the
wealthy in Europe in the last quarter of the 18th c. And weavers of the
time-consuming technique could not keep up with demand.

From around 1800 to 1850, weavers in the town of Paisley became the foremost
producers in Europe of these shawls when special additions to their handlooms
and Jacquard looms allowed them to work in five colors when most other weavers
of paisley used only two. By 1860 they could make shawls with fifteen colors,
although that was still only a quarter of the colors used textiles still being
imported from Kashmir. By around 1870 the shawls had fallen out of high fashion
for several reasons. Additionally, in the 19th c. the paisley pattern was being
printed onto other textiles.

In modern day South Asia the motif is still popular. It is called by names that
refer to the mango or mango seed.

I am a fan of paisleys, even modern ones, for mundane wear, but it is not easy
to find suitably patterned fabrics for SCA. I have occasionally found patterns
that are quasi-peri-oid.I recently made shalvar out of this fabric:
[http://www.equilter.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=138055]

But often with appropriately mono-directional boteh the colors are way too
modern (e.g., pale chartreuse with magenta/hot pink and maroon boteh)
[http://www.fabric.com/Webdata/Product/b345876c-cf35-41bb-975c-ecd00f024d80/Imag\
es/Large_CO-235.jpg]

Perhaps i need to frequent some local sari shops :-)

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

A friend has asked me to make in brais & leggings “correct for a Norman kit
of 1060-ish”. Now, I’ve never made either, and I am pretty sure that someone
was talking online about a good commercial source for both – but because it
wasn’t anything I thought I’d be interested in, I didn’t bookmark the link
that they provided.



Help?







Hrothny

--

Dame  <http://op.atlantia.sca.org/op_ind.php?atlantian_id=2723> Hróđný
Rognvaldsdóttir, OP, OL

Great Dark Horde & the Barony of Marinus, Atlantia

" Nobility depends not on parentage or place of birth, but on breadth of
compassion and of loving-kindness. If we would be noble, let us be
greathearted."





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Braes and hose are very simple to make, there are several places on line for
patterns as well as places like Historic Enterprise that sells them and they are
Regia approved seller


________________________________
From: Terri Morgan <online2much@...>
To: Crazy Crack Monkies <Atlantia_AnS@yahoogroups.com>;
Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 11:21 AM
Subject: [Authentic_SCA] In search of good brais & leggings


 
A friend has asked me to make in brais & leggings “correct for a Norman kit
of 1060-ish”. Now, I’ve never made either, and I am pretty sure that someone
was talking online about a good commercial source for both – but because it
wasn’t anything I thought I’d be interested in, I didn’t bookmark the link
that they provided.

Help?

Hrothny

--

Dame  <http://op.atlantia.sca.org/op_ind.php?atlantian_id=2723> Hróðný
RognvaldsdĂłttir, OP, OL

Great Dark Horde & the Barony of Marinus, Atlantia

" Nobility depends not on parentage or place of birth, but on breadth of
compassion and of loving-kindness. If we would be noble, let us be
greathearted."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As the discussion of printed fabric in period continues, I just wanted to share
with you one of the Fustat stamped cottons I found on Wikipedia; the description
talks about how the fabric was produced:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fustat_Indian.jpg

No paisley there, but the interior part of the fabric kind of looks like a Tudor
rose.

The example I posted seems to be 16th-17th century. But apparently there are
resist-dyed fragments of material found in Fustat dating from the 11th century -
again, like the fragment shown, in cottons imported from India. This is
according to Marcus Milwright in "An Introduction to Islamic Archaeology."

Anyone here have a copy of "Indian Block-printed Textiles in Egypt: The Newberry
Collection in the Ashmolean Museum"?, by Ruth Barnes? Apparently quite a bit of
that collection is early medieval. Would be interesting to see if any paisley
patterns pop up there.

I kind of always associated the paisley use in Indian fabrics, however, with the
coming of the later Mughal rulers (they were very Persian-influenced - and note
that word for the paisley-type motifs in Indian sari fabric is "butti,"
obviously deriving from the Persian word).

YIS,
Adelisa Salernitana

Vivat to you! Thank you. I'm keeping this to do later. I have a wood block that
is crying out to be used in a "tile" pattern. It takes some planning,but this
tile makes a wonderful all over pattern. I have some wood block tiles that I
bought years ago from Cost Plus Imports (now World Imports). Mostly 1" to 2"
boarder tiles used in printing cottons in India. It is amasing how many
traditional patterns are still available on the market. The cost seems high at
$25+, but think of all the time saved in cutting your own, and some are just not
good wood cutters.
Susana



________________________________
From: gianottadallafiora <christianetrue@...>
To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 9:53 AM
Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Period printed fabric


 
As the discussion of printed fabric in period continues, I just wanted to share
with you one of the Fustat stamped cottons I found on Wikipedia; the description
talks about how the fabric was produced:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fustat_Indian.jpg

No paisley there, but the interior part of the fabric kind of looks like a Tudor
rose.

The example I posted seems to be 16th-17th century. But apparently there are
resist-dyed fragments of material found in Fustat dating from the 11th century -
again, like the fragment shown, in cottons imported from India. This is
according to Marcus Milwright in "An Introduction to Islamic Archaeology."

Anyone here have a copy of "Indian Block-printed Textiles in Egypt: The Newberry
Collection in the Ashmolean Museum"?, by Ruth Barnes? Apparently quite a bit of
that collection is early medieval. Would be interesting to see if any paisley
patterns pop up there.

I kind of always associated the paisley use in Indian fabrics, however, with the
coming of the later Mughal rulers (they were very Persian-influenced - and note
that word for the paisley-type motifs in Indian sari fabric is "butti,"
obviously deriving from the Persian word).

YIS,
Adelisa Salernitana




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Sometimes" I can find very large patterns like this in chenille (not a period
fabric,but it looks like velvet) in the upholstery section of Joann" Fabrics or
better yet Home Fabrics.

I've also used very large stencils, blocks and hand painting to get this look.
"Usually" I have made up the garment, then applied the period paints (using Cenn



________________________________
From: jewett_christine <dystopic@...>
To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 10:53 AM
Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: printed fabric


 

I examined it a bit closer and I think it may be too close to paisley.
Gosh darn! Well, maybe it will make good curtains... :P

If I did want to make a patterned kirtle, say like the one in this
painting (the orange one on the left):

http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/g/goes/calvary/calvar21.jpg
<http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/g/goes/calvary/calvar21.jpg>

...what fabric would you recommend?

Gwnnil

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think my previous response didn't go through. I made a folder in the Photos
section called "questionable fabrics" and uploaded a scan of the almost
positively paisley fabric.
Gwnnil

Greetings Gwnnil
It is a period paisley style with large paisley forms set into lines rather than
all over the fabric. Usually, however, later period fabrics show as single
paisley motifs marching down the fabric in straight lines without all the other
floral forms around them.  You might want to go to the Dar Anahita site and
check out the fabrics she shows in the persian and turkish sections. You can
also have Urtatim take a look at the fabric and see what she thinks. For me it
leans more toward Persian.
It can be very hard to find truly period fabrics that are not upholstery weight.
Personally, I think it would make a great caftan especially with a contrasting
lining and a bright inner caftan or pirahan.
Just my 2 denari
Lady Nefratiri in Atenveldt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Oct 22, 2011, at 9:14 PM, jewett_christine wrote:
> I think my previous response didn't go through. I made a folder in
> the Photos section called "questionable fabrics" and uploaded a scan
> of the almost positively paisley fabric.

That's beautiful fabric! If you ever decide to do a 16th century
Turkish persona, it would be perfect. Unfortunately, it's not a good
choice for 15th century Italian. Everything I've ever read says
paisley was introduced to Western Europe no earlier than the very,
very late 16th century, so much later than you're looking at doing.
Sorry.
--
                                     Auf wiedersehen!
Michael
    ______________________________________________________
    "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

    "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
    of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
    women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

    "..No."

    "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                                     -Real Genius

That's what I thought, alas!

Well, they will make nice curtains... :P

Gwnnil

Respectfully, I question your reasoning because Italy is on the
Mediterranean.  My research of the Mediterranean in the 11th C indicates
that many things made it to the Italian Peninsula well before they made
it into the greater Western Europe (being so much earlier in my
research, I can't help the discussion of paisley). I would want to see
concrete information about Italy specifically before rejecting it as
part of "not in Western Europe". There's a reason the Italian
Renaissance started generations before the Western European one.

Sayyeda al-Kaslaania


On 10/23/2011 12:38 PM, Michael Hurley wrote:
> That's beautiful fabric! If you ever decide to do a 16th century
> Turkish persona, it would be perfect. Unfortunately, it's not a good
> choice for 15th century Italian. Everything I've ever read says
> paisley was introduced to Western Europe no earlier than the very,
> very late 16th century, so much later than you're looking at doing.
> Sorry.
> --
>                                      Auf wiedersehen!
> Michael
>

Completely forgot about this one, it's not printed, but silk twill from the
6th-7th century, and Persian; look at the wing of the senmury:

http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/trade/paisley.htm

It seems to me if we're looking for stamped botteh patterns on cotton, we're
going to be looking at Indian stuff, imported from Gujarat. There is a
possibility that an Italian lady might have had access to Indian printed
cottons, to this fascinating paper from the Global Economic History Network:

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/22468/1/wp22.pdf

Snippets below:

Europe and Printed Indian Cottons
Cotton textiles were virtually unknown in most of Europe in the late fifteenth
century.35 The exception was in the Mediterranean regions, most particularly the
eastern Mediterranean, where the trade in Indian printed and painted cottons was
centuries old. Surviving examples of painted and printed cottons from Old Cairo,
carbon dated to the fourteenth century, contain a range of common and medium
quality goods that passed
through the region.36 Unlike silk, these fabrics were produced in the broadest
array of qualities and from the outset were directed at a far wider range of
consumers. Venetian merchants eyed this trade hungrily and worked to become
significant intermediaries in a lucrative traffic with Levant and Mediterranean
markets.37 But with the arrival of the Portuguese in India, in the early
sixteenth century, cottons began being shipped by sea to western Europe with
gradual, but profound, results.

The citations:

33 Vincent, Costume and Conduct, pp. 114-116. See also N. Rothstein, `Silk in
the Early Modern Period, c. 1500-1780', in Jenkins, (ed.), Cambridge History of
Western Textiles, vol. i, p. 529.
34 Vincent, Costume and Conduct, p. 48.
35 Europe had developed since the twelfth century a dynamic fustian (mix linen
and cotton) industry in Central and North Italy and parts of Spain, and later in
the thirteenth century in Southern Germany and Switzerland. However, this
production was confined to coarse bleached fabrics. M. Fennell Mazzaoui, `The
Cotton Industry of Northern Italy in the Late Middle Ages: 1150-1450', Journal
of Economic History, 32 – 1 (1972), pp. 262-286; M. Fennell Mazzaoui, The
Italian Cotton Industry in the Later Middle Ages 1100-1600 (Cambridge, 1981).
See also H. Wescher, `The Beginning of the Cotton Industry in Europe', Ciba
Review, 64 (1948), pp. 2328-33; H. Wescher, `Fustian Weaving in South Germany
from the Fourteenth to the Sixteenth Century', Ciba Review, 64 (1948), pp.
2339-50.
36 R. Barnes, `Indian Trade Cloth in Egypt: the Newberry Collection', in
Textiles in Trade (Washington, 1990), pp. 178-91; R. Barnes, Indian
Block-Printed Textiles in Egypt. The Newberry Collection in the Ashmolean
Museum, Oxford (Oxford, 1997).
37 Abu-Lughod, Before European Hegemony, pp. 239-41; E. Ashtor, `The Venetian
Cotton Trade in the Later Middle Ages', Studi Medievali, 17 – 3 (1976), pp.
675-715; E. Ashtor, Studies on the Levantine Trade in the Middle Ages, (London,
1978).
38 A.K. Longfield, `History of the Irish linen and cotton printing industry in
the 18th century', Journal of Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, 58
(1937), p. 26. The earliest reference to textile block printing is the Italian
Trattato della Pittura written 1437 by Cennino Cennini and published only in
1821. See D. King, `Textiles and the origin of printing in Europe', Pantheon, 20
(1962), p. 29. Tax records and artefacts show how block printing was practiced
in Augsburg in around 1475. Ibid., pp. 23-30. King observes how artefacts are of
limited use in understanding the relevance of textile printing in Europe in the
middle ages. A large part of medieval printed textiles are fakes an were
acquired by nineteenth-century collectors who ignored their dubious provenance.



Reading further into the paper, I have no doubt there were imported printed
cottons being circulated in Italy and elsewhere before 1600.

Read this bit here:

"Within several years of Portugal's first voyages to the East, printed Indian
cottons were being incorporated into clerical garb in Lisbon, while less high
quality goods were directed to Atlantic and Levantine markets.42 Moreover, they
then rapidly moved north along well-established commercial routes, through
Antwerp's markets, appearing in southern England in the first half of the
sixteenth century, valued for reasons of aesthetics and practicality.43


42 J.C. Boyajian, Portuguese Trade in Asia under the Hapsburgs, 1580-1640
(Baltimore, 1993) p. 141; J. Guy, Woven Cargos: Indian Textiles in the East
(London, 1998), p. 9. 13
I hope this helps a little.
43 See, for example, T. Beaumont James, The Port Book of Southampton 1509-10
(Southampton, 1990), vol. ii, pp. 279-81, for commentaries on cargoes. E.
Roberts and K. Parker, (eds.), Southampton Probate Inventories, 1497-1575
(Southampton, 1992), vol. i., pp 65-70; 150-2; 159-62; 165-7; vol. ii, pp
244-52; 346-7; 358-9; B. Lemire, `Domesticating the Exotic: Floral Culture and
the East India Calico Trade with England, c. 1600-1800', Textile: The Journal of
Cloth and Culture, 1 - 1 (2003), pp. 67-8.

However, did these earlier printed cottons have botteh designs on them? And if
they did, what did they look like? I am suspecting that they were not as
elaborate as the modern printed fabric we've all been debating. This paper also
quotes the Ruth Barnes book (Indian Block-Printed Textiles in Egypt. The
Newberry Collection in the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford), and I am now seriously
interested in at least looking at a copy to see if there are any pictures or
descriptions of botteh-printed fabric from the 15th century or before. Even more
likely for our purposes is E. Ashtor's `The Venetian Cotton Trade in the Later
Middle Ages', Studi Medievali, 17 – 3 (1976), pp. 675-715.

Hoping you found this useful!

YIS,
Adelisa Salernitana

On Oct 24, 2011, at 1:13 PM, Sayyeda al-Kaslaania wrote:
> Respectfully, I question your reasoning because Italy is on the
> Mediterranean.  My research of the Mediterranean in the 11th C
> indicates
> that many things made it to the Italian Peninsula well before they
> made
> it into the greater Western Europe (being so much earlier in my
> research, I can't help the discussion of paisley). I would want to see
> concrete information about Italy specifically before rejecting it as
> part of "not in Western Europe". There's a reason the Italian
> Renaissance started generations before the Western European one.

You're asking for concrete evidence of a negative. I'm afraid that's
impossible. I, of course, can't prove that the pattern we today call
paisley was unknown in Italy in the 15th century, but everything I
have ever read says it was introduced to the West early in the first
half of the 17th century by English traders, and was being produced
locally (primarily around the Scottish city of Paisley) by the middle
of that century. I have never seen any evidence to the contrary.

It is certainly true that the pattern was well known in more Eastern
regions for centuries before that time and also true that Italy traded
widely and often had new items from the Far East before anyone else,
but those two disparate facts don't, in and of themselves, imply that
paisley had to be known there much earlier than elsewhere in Europe.
To my knowledge, there is simply no evidence to support the idea.

That's not to say there isn't something, somewhere that can. I just
don't know of it's existence. I'd love to be wrong on this! I have
some lovely paisley velveteen I purchased years ago from which make an
Elizabethan court outfit (before I discovered the consensus opinion
that paisley is out of period) and I'd love to have a reason to use it
for garb! But until that evidence can be presented I'm afraid I have
to agree with the consensus.
--
                                     Auf wiedersehen!
Michael
    ______________________________________________________
    "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

    "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
    of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
    women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

    "..No."

    "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                                     -Real Genius

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Sayyeda al-Kaslaania <samia@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Respectfully, I question your reasoning because Italy is on the
> Mediterranean. My research of the Mediterranean in the 11th C indicates
> that many things made it to the Italian Peninsula well before they made
> it into the greater Western Europe (being so much earlier in my
> research, I can't help the discussion of paisley). I would want to see
> concrete information about Italy specifically before rejecting it as
> part of "not in Western Europe". There's a reason the Italian
> Renaissance started generations before the Western European one.
>
> Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
>
>

  I have never seen any evidence that paisley was used in 15th Century
Italy.

However, I've never looked specifically for it and I focus mostly on the
last half of the 15th century in Venice, so my scope is very limited.

Giulia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Oct 22, 2011, at 9:14 PM, jewett_christine wrote:
> I think my previous response didn't go through. I made a folder in
> the Photos section called "questionable fabrics" and uploaded a scan
> of the almost positively paisley fabric.

Hi, and thanks for posting the photo.

Yes, as you began to suspect, that is a very late 20th / early 21st c. paisley
design. As i mentioned in a previous long-winded post, in or near SCA-period the
boteh tend to be arranged in rows with the tops up so that the fabric is a
one-way design.

Since my website was referenced, the pages i put together of late SCA-period
Persian fabrics are:
-- Late 15th c.:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/PersianFabric\
s.html
and these types of fabrics continued throughout the 16th c.

-- Purely Safavid - 16th, 17th, and probably 18th c. fabrics
http://home.earthlink.net/~anahita.al-fassiya/16th_C_intro.html
These particular fabrics are distinctively Safavid. I will reiterate that they
are NOT pastel. The colors have faded over time to give that appearance. The
colors, while not fully saturated, were fairly bright. I got to examine some at
the Textile Museum, Washington DC, and look at the back sides. For example, what
may appear light pink in a photo of the front side was originally a bright
salmon pink, pale sky blue was originally turquoise, etc.

Also, in the Safavid period, those distinctive patterns (with humans, animals,
boteh, and/or flowers) were not the only ones in use. There were also fabrics
with small, even tiny, more abstract patterns, such as this red and white
example from the end of the 16th c.:
http://home.earthlink.net/~anahita.al-fassiya/16th_C_flowers/DoubleClothQaba.jpg

But, again, these patterns, because they were created in complex weaves, such as
lampas, damask, etc., are arranged regularly, not scattered in an almost random
looking fashion the way so many modern (late 20th/early 21st c.) prints are.
Strong colors continued to be used: dark blue, intense reds, bright yellow, deep
green.

It can be a bit more challenging to find regular orderly arrangements of motifs
in modern fabrics, but they are out there. It is, however, especially difficult
to find orderly arrangements of boteh in period colors. In my previous message,
i gave links to two examples of orderly arrangements of boteh in modern printed
cotton: one perhaps vaguely quasi peri-oid, the other in lime and pink. There
are more out there - mostly in non-period colors, but some are more compatible
than lime and pink :-) I recently pick up some that are turquoise blue on a red
ground - details make it not purely period, but i think it is suitably peri-oid
- i intend the fabric for shalvar. I would not make a whole qaba out of boteh
patterned fabric, since i've never seen fully boteh patterned fabric in period.
I'd look for ogees, which are quite typical, and in both sections of my website
referenced above.

I hope this helps a little. Oh, and i left a comment that i hope is helpful on
the photo of the fabric on Yahoo.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
who mundanely wears paisley, but so far not in the SCA

Great  articles..!  Thanks for sharing.
 
Cairistiona


________________________________
From: gianottadallafiora <christianetrue@...>
To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:15 PM
Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Another "paisley" example and the printed cotton trade



 

Completely forgot about this one, it's not printed, but silk twill from the
6th-7th century, and Persian; look at the wing of the senmury:

http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/trade/paisley.htm

It seems to me if we're looking for stamped botteh patterns on cotton, we're
going to be looking at Indian stuff, imported from Gujarat. There is a
possibility that an Italian lady might have had access to Indian printed
cottons, to this fascinating paper from the Global Economic History Network:

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/22468/1/wp22.pdf

Snippets below:

Europe and Printed Indian Cottons
Cotton textiles were virtually unknown in most of Europe in the late fifteenth
century.35 The exception was in the Mediterranean regions, most particularly the
eastern Mediterranean, where the trade in Indian printed and painted cottons was
centuries old. Surviving examples of painted and printed cottons from Old Cairo,
carbon dated to the fourteenth century, contain a range of common and medium
quality goods that passed
through the region.36 Unlike silk, these fabrics were produced in the broadest
array of qualities and from the outset were directed at a far wider range of
consumers. Venetian merchants eyed this trade hungrily and worked to become
significant intermediaries in a lucrative traffic with Levant and Mediterranean
markets.37 But with the arrival of the Portuguese in India, in the early
sixteenth century, cottons began being shipped by sea to western Europe with
gradual, but profound, results.

The citations:

33 Vincent, Costume and Conduct, pp. 114-116. See also N. Rothstein, `Silk in
the Early Modern Period, c. 1500-1780', in Jenkins, (ed.), Cambridge History of
Western Textiles, vol. i, p. 529.
34 Vincent, Costume and Conduct, p. 48.
35 Europe had developed since the twelfth century a dynamic fustian (mix linen
and cotton) industry in Central and North Italy and parts of Spain, and later in
the thirteenth century in Southern Germany and Switzerland. However, this
production was confined to coarse bleached fabrics. M. Fennell Mazzaoui, `The
Cotton Industry of Northern Italy in the Late Middle Ages: 1150-1450', Journal
of Economic History, 32 – 1 (1972), pp. 262-286; M. Fennell Mazzaoui, The
Italian Cotton Industry in the Later Middle Ages 1100-1600 (Cambridge, 1981).
See also H. Wescher, `The Beginning of the Cotton Industry in Europe', Ciba
Review, 64 (1948), pp. 2328-33; H. Wescher, `Fustian Weaving in South Germany
from the Fourteenth to the Sixteenth Century', Ciba Review, 64 (1948), pp.
2339-50.
36 R. Barnes, `Indian Trade Cloth in Egypt: the Newberry Collection', in
Textiles in Trade (Washington, 1990), pp. 178-91; R. Barnes, Indian
Block-Printed Textiles in Egypt. The Newberry Collection in the Ashmolean
Museum, Oxford (Oxford, 1997).
37 Abu-Lughod, Before European Hegemony, pp. 239-41; E. Ashtor, `The Venetian
Cotton Trade in the Later Middle Ages', Studi Medievali, 17 – 3 (1976), pp.
675-715; E. Ashtor, Studies on the Levantine Trade in the Middle Ages, (London,
1978).
38 A.K. Longfield, `History of the Irish linen and cotton printing industry in
the 18th century', Journal of Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, 58
(1937), p. 26. The earliest reference to textile block printing is the Italian
Trattato della Pittura written 1437 by Cennino Cennini and published only in
1821. See D. King, `Textiles and the origin of printing in Europe', Pantheon, 20
(1962), p. 29. Tax records and artefacts show how block printing was practiced
in Augsburg in around 1475. Ibid., pp. 23-30. King observes how artefacts are of
limited use in understanding the relevance of textile printing in Europe in the
middle ages. A large part of medieval printed textiles are fakes an were
acquired by nineteenth-century collectors who ignored their dubious provenance.

Reading further into the paper, I have no doubt there were imported printed
cottons being circulated in Italy and elsewhere before 1600.

Read this bit here:

"Within several years of Portugal's first voyages to the East, printed Indian
cottons were being incorporated into clerical garb in Lisbon, while less high
quality goods were directed to Atlantic and Levantine markets.42 Moreover, they
then rapidly moved north along well-established commercial routes, through
Antwerp's markets, appearing in southern England in the first half of the
sixteenth century, valued for reasons of aesthetics and practicality.43

42 J.C. Boyajian, Portuguese Trade in Asia under the Hapsburgs, 1580-1640
(Baltimore, 1993) p. 141; J. Guy, Woven Cargos: Indian Textiles in the East
(London, 1998), p. 9. 13
I hope this helps a little.
43 See, for example, T. Beaumont James, The Port Book of Southampton 1509-10
(Southampton, 1990), vol. ii, pp. 279-81, for commentaries on cargoes. E.
Roberts and K. Parker, (eds.), Southampton Probate Inventories, 1497-1575
(Southampton, 1992), vol. i., pp 65-70; 150-2; 159-62; 165-7; vol. ii, pp
244-52; 346-7; 358-9; B. Lemire, `Domesticating the Exotic: Floral Culture and
the East India Calico Trade with England, c. 1600-1800', Textile: The Journal of
Cloth and Culture, 1 - 1 (2003), pp. 67-8.

However, did these earlier printed cottons have botteh designs on them? And if
they did, what did they look like? I am suspecting that they were not as
elaborate as the modern printed fabric we've all been debating. This paper also
quotes the Ruth Barnes book (Indian Block-Printed Textiles in Egypt. The
Newberry Collection in the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford), and I am now seriously
interested in at least looking at a copy to see if there are any pictures or
descriptions of botteh-printed fabric from the 15th century or before. Even more
likely for our purposes is E. Ashtor's `The Venetian Cotton Trade in the Later
Middle Ages', Studi Medievali, 17 – 3 (1976), pp. 675-715.

Hoping you found this useful!

YIS,
Adelisa Salernitana




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This was a very informative article. It helped to get a few things straight in
my head. I know how sometimes we are tempted to just go along with first
impressions and the lovely look of a fabric and how good we would look in it.
Research is indeed helpful, it keeps us looking for "period correctness". Not
everyone wants to present  authentic clothing. I appreciate all the effort a
person has gone through to get the research done, bring copies of colors
pictures along when shopping, taking the time to thoughtfully decide on a fabric
and design, and getting a correct period silhouette. All this makes up into a
true work of art and a delight to wear.
Susana



________________________________
From: gianottadallafiora <christianetrue@...>
To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:15 PM
Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Another "paisley" example and the printed cotton trade


 
Completely forgot about this one, it's not printed, but silk twill from the
6th-7th century, and Persian; look at the wing of the senmury:

http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/trade/paisley.htm

It seems to me if we're looking for stamped botteh patterns on cotton, we're
going to be looking at Indian stuff, imported from Gujarat. There is a
possibility that an Italian lady might have had access to Indian printed
cottons, to this fascinating paper from the Global Economic History Network:

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/22468/1/wp22.pdf

Snippets below:

Europe and Printed Indian Cottons
Cotton textiles were virtually unknown in most of Europe in the late fifteenth
century.35 The exception was in the Mediterranean regions, most particularly the
eastern Mediterranean, where the trade in Indian printed and painted cottons was
centuries old. Surviving examples of painted and printed cottons from Old Cairo,
carbon dated to the fourteenth century, contain a range of common and medium
quality goods that passed
through the region.36 Unlike silk, these fabrics were produced in the broadest
array of qualities and from the outset were directed at a far wider range of
consumers. Venetian merchants eyed this trade hungrily and worked to become
significant intermediaries in a lucrative traffic with Levant and Mediterranean
markets.37 But with the arrival of the Portuguese in India, in the early
sixteenth century, cottons began being shipped by sea to western Europe with
gradual, but profound, results.

The citations:

33 Vincent, Costume and Conduct, pp. 114-116. See also N. Rothstein, `Silk in
the Early Modern Period, c. 1500-1780', in Jenkins, (ed.), Cambridge History of
Western Textiles, vol. i, p. 529.
34 Vincent, Costume and Conduct, p. 48.
35 Europe had developed since the twelfth century a dynamic fustian (mix linen
and cotton) industry in Central and North Italy and parts of Spain, and later in
the thirteenth century in Southern Germany and Switzerland. However, this
production was confined to coarse bleached fabrics. M. Fennell Mazzaoui, `The
Cotton Industry of Northern Italy in the Late Middle Ages: 1150-1450', Journal
of Economic History, 32 – 1 (1972), pp. 262-286; M. Fennell Mazzaoui, The
Italian Cotton Industry in the Later Middle Ages 1100-1600 (Cambridge, 1981).
See also H. Wescher, `The Beginning of the Cotton Industry in Europe', Ciba
Review, 64 (1948), pp. 2328-33; H. Wescher, `Fustian Weaving in South Germany
from the Fourteenth to the Sixteenth Century', Ciba Review, 64 (1948), pp.
2339-50.
36 R. Barnes, `Indian Trade Cloth in Egypt: the Newberry Collection', in
Textiles in Trade (Washington, 1990), pp. 178-91; R. Barnes, Indian
Block-Printed Textiles in Egypt. The Newberry Collection in the Ashmolean
Museum, Oxford (Oxford, 1997).
37 Abu-Lughod, Before European Hegemony, pp. 239-41; E. Ashtor, `The Venetian
Cotton Trade in the Later Middle Ages', Studi Medievali, 17 – 3 (1976), pp.
675-715; E. Ashtor, Studies on the Levantine Trade in the Middle Ages, (London,
1978).
38 A.K. Longfield, `History of the Irish linen and cotton printing industry in
the 18th century', Journal of Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, 58
(1937), p. 26. The earliest reference to textile block printing is the Italian
Trattato della Pittura written 1437 by Cennino Cennini and published only in
1821. See D. King, `Textiles and the origin of printing in Europe', Pantheon, 20
(1962), p. 29. Tax records and artefacts show how block printing was practiced
in Augsburg in around 1475. Ibid., pp. 23-30. King observes how artefacts are of
limited use in understanding the relevance of textile printing in Europe in the
middle ages. A large part of medieval printed textiles are fakes an were
acquired by nineteenth-century collectors who ignored their dubious provenance.

Reading further into the paper, I have no doubt there were imported printed
cottons being circulated in Italy and elsewhere before 1600.

Read this bit here:

"Within several years of Portugal's first voyages to the East, printed Indian
cottons were being incorporated into clerical garb in Lisbon, while less high
quality goods were directed to Atlantic and Levantine markets.42 Moreover, they
then rapidly moved north along well-established commercial routes, through
Antwerp's markets, appearing in southern England in the first half of the
sixteenth century, valued for reasons of aesthetics and practicality.43

42 J.C. Boyajian, Portuguese Trade in Asia under the Hapsburgs, 1580-1640
(Baltimore, 1993) p. 141; J. Guy, Woven Cargos: Indian Textiles in the East
(London, 1998), p. 9. 13
I hope this helps a little.
43 See, for example, T. Beaumont James, The Port Book of Southampton 1509-10
(Southampton, 1990), vol. ii, pp. 279-81, for commentaries on cargoes. E.
Roberts and K. Parker, (eds.), Southampton Probate Inventories, 1497-1575
(Southampton, 1992), vol. i., pp 65-70; 150-2; 159-62; 165-7; vol. ii, pp
244-52; 346-7; 358-9; B. Lemire, `Domesticating the Exotic: Floral Culture and
the East India Calico Trade with England, c. 1600-1800', Textile: The Journal of
Cloth and Culture, 1 - 1 (2003), pp. 67-8.

However, did these earlier printed cottons have botteh designs on them? And if
they did, what did they look like? I am suspecting that they were not as
elaborate as the modern printed fabric we've all been debating. This paper also
quotes the Ruth Barnes book (Indian Block-Printed Textiles in Egypt. The
Newberry Collection in the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford), and I am now seriously
interested in at least looking at a copy to see if there are any pictures or
descriptions of botteh-printed fabric from the 15th century or before. Even more
likely for our purposes is E. Ashtor's `The Venetian Cotton Trade in the Later
Middle Ages', Studi Medievali, 17 – 3 (1976), pp. 675-715.

Hoping you found this useful!

YIS,
Adelisa Salernitana




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You know the saying........ "one picture is worth a thousand words".
Susana



________________________________
From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] printed fabric


 
On Oct 22, 2011, at 9:14 PM, jewett_christine wrote:
> I think my previous response didn't go through. I made a folder in
> the Photos section called "questionable fabrics" and uploaded a scan
> of the almost positively paisley fabric.

Hi, and thanks for posting the photo.

Yes, as you began to suspect, that is a very late 20th / early 21st c. paisley
design. As i mentioned in a previous long-winded post, in or near SCA-period the
boteh tend to be arranged in rows with the tops up so that the fabric is a
one-way design.

Since my website was referenced, the pages i put together of late SCA-period
Persian fabrics are:
-- Late 15th c.:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/PersianFabric\
s.html
and these types of fabrics continued throughout the 16th c.

-- Purely Safavid - 16th, 17th, and probably 18th c. fabrics
http://home.earthlink.net/~anahita.al-fassiya/16th_C_intro.html
These particular fabrics are distinctively Safavid. I will reiterate that they
are NOT pastel. The colors have faded over time to give that appearance. The
colors, while not fully saturated, were fairly bright. I got to examine some at
the Textile Museum, Washington DC, and look at the back sides. For example, what
may appear light pink in a photo of the front side was originally a bright
salmon pink, pale sky blue was originally turquoise, etc.

Also, in the Safavid period, those distinctive patterns (with humans, animals,
boteh, and/or flowers) were not the only ones in use. There were also fabrics
with small, even tiny, more abstract patterns, such as this red and white
example from the end of the 16th c.:
http://home.earthlink.net/~anahita.al-fassiya/16th_C_flowers/DoubleClothQaba.jpg

But, again, these patterns, because they were created in complex weaves, such as
lampas, damask, etc., are arranged regularly, not scattered in an almost random
looking fashion the way so many modern (late 20th/early 21st c.) prints are.
Strong colors continued to be used: dark blue, intense reds, bright yellow, deep
green.

It can be a bit more challenging to find regular orderly arrangements of motifs
in modern fabrics, but they are out there. It is, however, especially difficult
to find orderly arrangements of boteh in period colors. In my previous message,
i gave links to two examples of orderly arrangements of boteh in modern printed
cotton: one perhaps vaguely quasi peri-oid, the other in lime and pink. There
are more out there - mostly in non-period colors, but some are more compatible
than lime and pink :-) I recently pick up some that are turquoise blue on a red
ground - details make it not purely period, but i think it is suitably peri-oid
- i intend the fabric for shalvar. I would not make a whole qaba out of boteh
patterned fabric, since i've never seen fully boteh patterned fabric in period.
I'd look for ogees, which are quite typical, and in both sections of my website
referenced above.

I hope this helps a little. Oh, and i left a comment that i hope is helpful on
the photo of the fabric on Yahoo.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
who mundanely wears paisley, but so far not in the SCA



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But by tht logic then, that means that since Italy had trade with the west that
they could have worn Chinese style clothing..but they did not, why not it was
known of during this time as early as the late 13th century, yet they ( the
Italians) preferred their more Continental styles. Just because you have
access to something does not mean that you will like it or even want to use it.
Plus you must keep in mind racial ideals of the time looked at
other cultures as inferior and this was very prevalent among the Italians
of the ren period. If we did not make it then it must not be very good was more
or less the norm in the elder eras.

Thorbjorn Polson


________________________________
From: Sayyeda al-Kaslaania <samia@...>
To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: printed fabric


 
Respectfully, I question your reasoning because Italy is on the
Mediterranean.  My research of the Mediterranean in the 11th C indicates
that many things made it to the Italian Peninsula well before they made
it into the greater Western Europe (being so much earlier in my
research, I can't help the discussion of paisley). I would want to see
concrete information about Italy specifically before rejecting it as
part of "not in Western Europe". There's a reason the Italian
Renaissance started generations before the Western European one.

Sayyeda al-Kaslaania

On 10/23/2011 12:38 PM, Michael Hurley wrote:
> That's beautiful fabric! If you ever decide to do a 16th century
> Turkish persona, it would be perfect. Unfortunately, it's not a good
> choice for 15th century Italian. Everything I've ever read says
> paisley was introduced to Western Europe no earlier than the very,
> very late 16th century, so much later than you're looking at doing.
> Sorry.
> --
>                                      Auf wiedersehen!
> Michael
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thorbjorn Polson wrote:
> But by that logic then, that means that since Italy had trade with the west
that they
> could have worn Chinese style clothing.. but they did not, why not it was
known of during
> this time as early as the late 13th century, yet they (the Italians) preferred
their more
> Continental styles. Just because you have access to something does not mean
that you will
> like it or even want to use it. Plus you must keep in mind racial ideals of
the time
> looked at other cultures as inferior and this was very prevalent among the
Italians of
> the ren period. If we did not make it then it must not be very good was more
or less the
> norm in the elder eras.

I stand with Samia.

First, several major Italian city-states on both sides of "the boot" had
vigorous trade with the Islamic world for well over half of SCA-period. After
all, many Muslim countries were a relatively short boat across the
Mediterranean, far closer than China. Besides, because of the great distance
between Italy and China, and the periodic cultural and political and religious
upheavals in China itself and intervening regions, there were no stable and
constant trade routes between them.

Also, you jump directly to "clothing". However, clothing was not a major trade
item. As you point out, and from what i can see, people preferred to stick to
their own clothing, for the most part. Luxury fabrics and textiles, however were
desired for many centuries. And the trade went both ways, with weaving workshops
in some Italian cities producing luxury textiles for trade eastward, as well as
Italians importing textiles produced in the Muslim world. By the 16th c. some
Venetians, especially women, wore imitation Ottoman kaftans, who commissioned
their portraits wearing them

Additionally one cannot discount the fact that Sicily and some parts of mainland
Italy were under Muslim control for over 250 years, from 827 until ca. 1091, and
Arabic influence - and the speaking of Arabic - lingered for centuries
afterward, continuing well into the early 14th c.. Islamic cultures influenced
not only fabric but architecture, and even food, with such dishes as Romania,
which is an adaptation of Rumaniyya; Limonia, an adaptation of Limuniyya; and
Somacchia, from Summaqiyya; appearing in late 14th c. High Renaissance Italian
cookbooks.

--
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita