But seriously, and this may have already been covered since I have only
half been paying attention to this thread, but I just received Sally
Pointer's little booklet on "Making Medieval Underware" which says:

"John off Reading also commented that with the new fashion for a slimmer
silhouette, women's clothes 'became so tight that they wear the tails of
foxes hanging under their skirts at the back to hide their arses.' This is
significant from our point of view as it demonstrates the use of padding
under female dress, in this case to preserve modesty, and the beginnings of
the fashion which required many undergarments to achieve the correct drape
of the overdress..."

So I have a couple questions -- 1) is this the aforementioned
misinterpretation of a historical document I think I caught earlier in the
thread? 2) Is Sally Pointer a 100% reliable source for information on
medieval clothing? (I was taking it as such because a) she's in England, b)
she seems well researched and referenced, c) she's done a lot of
reenactment and film work, and d) her online pictures look spot on to my
somewhat untrained eye (only been researching medieval costume for 15 years).

Opinions?

- Willow (my brain hurts) MacPherson

At 02:39 PM 7/30/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>basic wares, feast gear, jewelry, belt knives,
>lighting, etc. with some kind of documentation sheet would be spiffy.
>Something simple like: This candle holder was common in X period as seen in
>illustrations in Book X, Manuscript Y.

OOOOOOO yesyesyesyesyes! Excellent point!

>If there was a seller of goods that were made with period tools and
>materials, I would shop there, especially if they were in the peasant
>affordability class.

Absolutely.... too many expensive things for the upper classes, almost no
affordable daily living things for everyone else.

- Willow (that's FRUGAL, not cheap) MacPherson

That's why I sew, but sometimes I do buy things off the rack -- I got a
shirt at 30 Year actually. I appreciate that authentic, handmade, well-done
clothing is going to be pricey... but I personally was talking about
tableware, candleholders, etc. that can be mass produced or even gotten
from importers if you're lucky (I happened to find a wholesale source of
horn spoons from China last weekend at the San Francisco Int'l Gift Fair
trade show).

- Willow MacPherson

Jehanne,

Thanks for the referral. I'll certainly take a look.

Julian

wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

http://www.medievalwares.com/index.htm

SNIP

Dear Rhonda,
our Group already bought from you. You show 3 variations on the one "lace edged"
design, set with oval stones, on your website. Our Group's "noble characters"
often choose your rings from our "common" Jewel coffer, in preference to other
rings. Definitely,  a "look how rich-I-am" family of rings!
I do understand that commercial considerations rule for any Merchant, - which
limit the number of products which can be designed and put on sale.
But might one hope that you might eventually  work up another gorgeous
"master-design family" of rings?  Which,  - for example, - use
medium-to-large-size stones very-simply-cut/faceted, and mounted in clawed
settings on some type of split-ring mount? Even after 12 months, [ I mentioned
this to you when we were last in contact] I still haven't found any Maker who
offers repro-medieval rings which I can wear over my gloves.
Do please e-mail me with jpeg pics of the other rings styles you mention below.

Julian Wilson,
in the Island of "olde"* Jersey, which this year is celebrating 800 years of
loyalty to our Ruling Duke, the English Sovereign.

[* Well, where did you think New Jersey was founded from, by Sir George De
Carteret?]

Sapphire And Sage - Rhonda <sapphireandsage@...> wrote:

SNIP

ANYWAY, as I was about to say SNIP I don't know if these are what you were
looking for, but I've got some men's rings on my site.  SNIP Have several more
styles (a simple
smooth-bordered setting and a more ornate floral setting come immediately to
mind - if anyone would like a photo, please email me off-list, YES, PLEASE - 
and I'll passone along when we return on August 9th) that I'll be adding next
month.  I
hate to post a reference to my own merchant site here, but since you
asked....  :)
http://www.sapphireandsage.com/rings.html

~Rhonda


---------------------------------
  ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No sooner said than done. Steve has  great stuff in his product Range

http://www.pewterreplicas.co.uk/

In service,
Julian, in "olde" Jersey

Buying and use of period tools.
As a life-long woodworker, I'd like to comment on this.
Never forget that "your "allotted Span's TTime is your total Capital, and can
never be replaced".
So why expend more of it to do anything, than your desired "end result" may
need?

I learned my woodworking skills from a semi-retired Shipwright who managed my
Father's Boatyard. He learned his skills back in the Victorian era, and the Yard
- just after WW2 - had very few modern tools. Apart from a few electric
hand-drills, and one Tarplaner, I don't recall any powered hand-tools in our
Yard. Even the large machines were run from overhead lineshafting by leather
belts. So I learned to do my woodworking "by hand" with traditional tools.
Now, in recreating most items of medieval woodwork,anyway, - the careful use of
modern power tools where-ever and whenever possible "off-site" greatly speeds up
the manufacturing process; and the end result - if the Crafter is doing it right
- ought to be indistinguishable from the same item produced by hand-tools in the
medieval manner.
Even carving can now be done far more quickly with powered hand-tools which are
well within any D.I.Y. Crafter's budget - especially for you in the USA, where
tool prices are so much lower than here in the UK.
I already know how to do the whole process by hand,  - and can demonstrate if I
need to, - so I have nothing to prove to anyone; - but I'd rather make - say - 3
State Chairs using modern power tools - than one such using traditional
hand-tools. Only you will know the difference. Those who view your completed
projects almost certainly will not.
This happens to apply to woodworking, and may well not apply to many other
medieval crafts. However, as another example, - we have an expert in the
restoration of classic vehicles here in the Island who is a real dab-hand at
making plate-armour, using the same modern power tools he uses to form bodywork
panels.

Julian,
in "olde" Jersey

That's what I'm considering too! I just like the idea of using more of my
SCA gear in everyday life. I can't really go to events right now, so using
all my feast gear will help tide me over.

--Saerlaith


>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  If I  spend the money for nice plates or those gorgeous period drinking glasses
and  use them in my real life as well, I suspect I'll feel I get more out of
them.
   More breakage, probably, but I won't just feel they're expensive toys.

>And to steer this back on topic - sort of - do
(Old-Style)nuns wear bras?  Do Amish women?

Thoughts?

I live in Lancaster county PA and often shop in store run by and for the
Amish, and yes the Amish women do wear bras - as basic and unattractive as
possible, white cotton broadcloth, but bras none the less.....

Rhiannon

>My wimples and veils are all white, though, so I guess that's *slightly*
>more understandable than mistaking a red veil for a habit!

Maybe they thought she was a Redemptoristine nun.  Their community wears red
habits and veils.  I remember being in an elevator once and remarking to Sr.
Eilene that the man who just got off must be a Dominican because he had OP
on his shorts.  I still have to stop and think when I see these initial in
the SCA context.  OP does not mean Order of Preachers, and OL is not Order
of Loretto.  Context frames our perception.

Kilian+ (Lady ?? de Palomares to be)
1kilian@...

**Sorry this is so behind, I'm just catching up on thelast 3 days of
reading. Could someone please tell me what Morisca is? That's not a
term I've come across before. Is it a particular culture? A type of
garment? what?

WhiteRaven - Curiosity killed the cat, Satisfaction brought her back.

> I've been planning to do some 16th c. Morisca clothes soon, and
one of the
> reasons is that I really want some non-skirted clothes to pitch
tents, etc. in
> at events. I've also considered just making a set of men's clothes
for
> tent-pitching purposes. I really have never gotten used to being
in skirts while
> camping, and I don't really care for it all that much...
>
> Raquel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>BTW, several of the current SCA members are well known science
>fiction writers...

Is Kathryn Kurtz still an active member?  I remember meeting her 30 years
ago at a Benedictine monastery in San Diego where she was visiting to gather
research for her Michaeline community in the Camber of Culdi books.  One of
the nuns there was an ardent SF fan.  Kathryn was wearing a unicorn pendant,
and I asked her if she knew anything about SCA.  Turned out she knew quite a
lot and was gracious in sharing her knowledge.

Kilian+ (Lady ? de Palomares to be)
1kilian@...

>And to steer this back on topic - sort of - do
>(Old-Style)nuns wear bras?

Depends on the community.  Older, traditional communities whose habits are
based on widow's garb of their founders' time wear whatever underwear was in
vogue in their area, usually chemises, camisoles, and weird knee-length
underpants tied together with drawstrings.  The comment about the scarf on
the head reminded me of a running nun joke about how so-and-so's community
headgear was modeled after a handkerchief dropped by the founder.

Modern novices have to be taught how to get dressed.  The headdresses are
particularly challenging and usually good for chronic headaches.  Their
personal hygiene traditions are medieval, too.  No deodorant, full bath
maybe once a week, etc.  Summertime in choir could be stifling and
nauseating according to one former member of a contemplative community I
know.

Most communities aside from the extremely conservative, strictly cloistered
communities wear regular street clothes and modern underwear.  When your vow
of poverty prevents keeping up with fashion, it doesn't take long to spot a
nun.  She's the one in the double-knit polyester pant suit with the white
nylon blouse and bad haircut.

The old habits did have some advantages.  One always knew what to wear, and
Sister could scrub a toilet or receive the bishop confident that she would
be properly dressed for the occasion.  Hair was nice, too.  All you had to
do was grab anything long enough to hold onto and cut it off.  Having your
gray hair, wrinkled neck skin, and double chin covered by the wimple kept
everyone looking younger than her years.

Kilian+
1kilian@...

--- wulfy95113 <wulfstand@...> wrote:

> What I sincerely & devoutly hope that all the fairy
> wing stuff is  only being done by those doing
"Midsummers Nights dream", there is a  masked ball, or
that they are 12 or under. <g>  Inexcusable
> otherwise.

Then my dear, sweet Lord Wulfy, I must be one of those
"inexcusables".  As I collect dragons, unicorns,
pegasus, and sometimes fairies.  And yes, even dragons
were "noted" in medieval times.  Even in England and
in the Churches.

Here is a piece that I wrote for a tapestry that I am
working on.......

Mythical Creatures in Period
By Sorcha Fhionn inghean ui/Ruairc

Fairies, nymphs, and dragons…… oh my!

Before there was the written word, stories were told
verbally throughout the ages.  It is speculated that
even the caveman told stories by grunts and hand
gestures.  Even their paintings on the cave walls tell
stories of hunting, animals, and of family members.
But, I am not going back that far in time, so I will
not pursue this any further.

Some countries never had written word until late 16th,
early 17th century.  Their stories were told by
word-of-mouth, from father to son, mother to daughter.
  Even from traveler to traveler and eventually to
scholars and scribes.

They told of fairies, nymphs, witches, and fierce,
fire-breathing dragons.  Even the strong and hearty
sea-faring men of ocean bound ships told stories of
giant, fearful sea monsters upon their return to land.

All these creatures, being fact or fancy, imagination,
or from stories changed throughout the ages, are still
part of everyone's history.  Even the stories we were
raised on during our childhood were derived from
stories and fables from centuries ago.  Most, if not
all of them, originating from before the Middle Ages.

Tapestries are stories within themselves.  Yes, most
were made for cathedrals.  And others told of wars and
conquests.  Some depicted Kings, Queens, and of royal
events.  While others told stories of the Greek Gods
of Olympus.  Fairies and wood nymphs appeared in
tapestries.  Even fair maidens sitting with unicorns.

Towards the end of the 14th century, wild-looking,
hirsute men engaged in hunting and struggles with
fantastic beasts started appearing in tapestries.  In
the 15th century, especially in Basle, they dominated
the scenes.

Who remembers "The Story of Hercules", "The Virgin and
the Unicorn", and "St. George Slaying the Dragon"?
These are all famous tapestries depicting mythical
creatures, and are now in museums in Europe.  Even a
tapestry in a church depicting "The Execution of St.
Margaret and her Dragon" is still in one piece and on
display.

Even now, we hear and see mythical creatures all
around us, from the dragons and griffins on our
shields, to the mention of dragons and nymphs in the
stories and poems that we hear around our campfires.

Mythical creatures, sea-faring monsters, and grotesque
beasts are a part of our past history.  They still
live in paintings, stories, and in tapestries.

Long life to these fantastic, fabled beasts of yore.


"the inexcusable" Sorcha :)

=====
Lady Sorcha Fhionn inghean uiRuairc, AOA ......  Kingdom of the West;
Holda,  Company of the Silver Spindle, West Kingdom Chapter;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WKGoldenSpindle/
http://www.angelfire.com/dragon2/dragonskeep

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

--- bronwynmgn@... wrote:

> None of the above at the Irish/Scottish festival.
> Grown adults (usually but  not always women) or
older teenagers parading around all over the place.
No
> MND pefromances or masked ball that I knew about.
>

Please forgive my comment on this thread.  That is
what happens when I try to reply to emails very late
at night.. I miss the begining.

Sorcha

=====
Lady Sorcha Fhionn inghean uiRuairc, AOA ......  Kingdom of the West;
Holda,  Company of the Silver Spindle, West Kingdom Chapter;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WKGoldenSpindle/
http://www.angelfire.com/dragon2/dragonskeep



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

There's some interesting thoughts on bumrolls and wheel farthingales
on this site:
http://www.netherton.net/robin/index.html
Hope you like it.
Rebecca


> <snip>
> > Anyone on bumrolls?  Ever seen them documented by someone other
than
> > Savoy and Winter?
> >
> > Kass
> > asking the hard ones today...
>

as for the boston celtics - no need for faeries there - they pronounce it with a
soft c - like as 's' not the hard  c - 'k' sound
lady snow  T


with faith, trust and pixiedust....anything is possible :x

MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR POSTS

> Or, better still, a really affordable source for proper Seal
Rings, as carried by the medieval nobility.
> I mean, have any of you tried to get a Seal Ring made for your own
Noble characters, bearing your SCA-registered Badges? All the
engravers I've contacted want "telkephone numbers" prices to cut
seals - and then you have to choose a ring, have it made-up, and
have the stone mounted!
>
>
>

It depends on what you mean by affordable. The person I trust for
making rings is Mistress Lailin, modernly named Lyn Punkari.  She's
a professional jeweler. http://hometown.aol.com/lynpunk/Mainpg.html
is her website. This is her job. She is paid accordingly. For custom
made stuff she's very affordable.

A direct link to an heraldic Tudor-style ring that she made is here:
http://hometown.aol.com/lynpunk/SigRingPg.html  and yes, she did the
metal casting and intaglio work on the stone and enamels.

A direct link to the ring she made for me is here:
http://hometown.aol.com/lynpunk/Ringpg.html

Her work is amazing, beautifully detailed and, well, I'm a happy
customer.

Despina

> To the best of my knowledge, I've never heard of Steve
Millingham's Pewter
> Replicas.  Got a URL handy, by any chance?
>
>

In the links section there is a folder called "accoutremont for
daily life" it's in there. Pewter Replicas.

Despina de la look through the links, there's some good stuff there

add to the links - it helps others

Good to hear you'll be merchanting at Pennsic,
Vitha--many sales to you!

I laughed when someone mentioned maybe using better
quality feast gear as their real life table ware---I
just started doing that myself! Course, I don't have
to worry so much about breakage, because I'm using
pewter plates...but I'm still constantly forgetting
about heat transfer. Sooner or later a hot dish is
going to end up (with dinner) all over the kitchen
floor. If I break any more pottery mugs, though, I
thik I'll cry...


=====
Lady Kateryn Rous, CP
House Broussard
Windmasters Hill
http://sca.livingpast.com

Please snip posts folks. If you want to refer to something in a
previous post to make your answer more meaningful, take that portion
out and respond to it. Don't just post on top of the question.... or
post on the bottom of the whole post when you're responding to a
single question located in the middle of the post.

Cut the question, answer below it.

There's a lot more duplicate posts turning up than need be.

Thanks,
Despina

I expect there are so many 'authentic' looking 14-15th
C people wandering around because that's the garb that
Historic Enterprises makes.  I know your
frustration--I now am wearing H.E. cothing (and liking
it) not because it matches my preferred period, but
because it was ready made, good looking, and in linen
and/or wool instead of cotton with modern trim!

=====
Lady Kateryn Rous, CP
House Broussard
Windmasters Hill
http://sca.livingpast.com

In a message dated 02/08/2004 14:38:03 GMT Standard Time,
lady_snow1@... writes:

> as for the boston celtics - no need for faeries there - they pronounce it
> with a soft c - like as 's' not the hard  c - 'k' sound
> lady snow  T
>

Who or what are the Boston Celtics?

Alan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A google check for a history of Furry Fandom says the first Furry-only (I
can't believe I'm typing any of this :) ) convention was in 1989 and that Furry
activity was building up in the early  80's.
{snip}

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One person's freak is another person's friend,
Aliskye.

Tasha
Conbook Editor, Anthrocon 2002-2003
(the largest fur-con in America)

PLEASE SNIP YOUR POSTS

>
> Who or what are the Boston Celtics?
>
> Alan
>
>

It's a basket ball team.  Google can work wonders for finding
information sometimes.

Despina

In a message dated 8/2/04 6:29:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Alan confessed and Raquel suggested the following penance:
> Actually, I'm teetotal, don't like kilts or tartan, and have never (to my
> best knowledge) danced naked around a fire....
>
> I'm really failing here, aren't I?

No hope. You really ought to try a bit harder. You could take up the bodhran
or something...
which leads me to one of my favorite, but OOP musician jokes (daughter was in
marching band for four years, what can I say)

What is the difference between a bodhran and a trampoline?

It is considered good manners to take off one's shoes before jumping on the
trampoline.

Luighseach
who had a great time yesterday looking at 1480s-1530s illuminated manuscripts
at the Getty


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CHEERS to the inexcusables who make mundane life and times past and present
liveable......
>
> From: Sorcha <pjbarnes1@...>
> Date: 2004/08/01 Sun AM 03:05:29 EDT
> To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Fairies & Scotland
>
>
> --- wulfy95113 <wulfstand@...> wrote:
>
> > What I sincerely & devoutly hope that all the fairy
> > wing stuff is  only being done by those doing
> "Midsummers Nights dream", there is a  masked ball, or
> that they are 12 or under. <g>  Inexcusable
> > otherwise.
>
> Then my dear, sweet Lord Wulfy, I must be one of those
> "inexcusables".  As I collect dragons, unicorns,
> pegasus, and sometimes fairies.  And yes, even dragons
> were "noted" in medieval times.  Even in England and
> in the Churches.
>
> Here is a piece that I wrote for a tapestry that I am
> working on.......
>
> Mythical Creatures in Period
> By Sorcha Fhionn inghean ui/Ruairc
>
> Fairies, nymphs, and dragons?? oh my!
>
> Before there was the written word, stories were told
> verbally throughout the ages.  It is speculated that
> even the caveman told stories by grunts and hand
> gestures.  Even their paintings on the cave walls tell
> stories of hunting, animals, and of family members.
> But, I am not going back that far in time, so I will
> not pursue this any further.
>
> Some countries never had written word until late 16th,
> early 17th century.  Their stories were told by
> word-of-mouth, from father to son, mother to daughter.
>  Even from traveler to traveler and eventually to
> scholars and scribes.
>
> They told of fairies, nymphs, witches, and fierce,
> fire-breathing dragons.  Even the strong and hearty
> sea-faring men of ocean bound ships told stories of
> giant, fearful sea monsters upon their return to land.
>
> All these creatures, being fact or fancy, imagination,
> or from stories changed throughout the ages, are still
> part of everyone's history.  Even the stories we were
> raised on during our childhood were derived from
> stories and fables from centuries ago.  Most, if not
> all of them, originating from before the Middle Ages.
>
> Tapestries are stories within themselves.  Yes, most
> were made for cathedrals.  And others told of wars and
> conquests.  Some depicted Kings, Queens, and of royal
> events.  While others told stories of the Greek Gods
> of Olympus.  Fairies and wood nymphs appeared in
> tapestries.  Even fair maidens sitting with unicorns.
>
> Towards the end of the 14th century, wild-looking,
> hirsute men engaged in hunting and struggles with
> fantastic beasts started appearing in tapestries.  In
> the 15th century, especially in Basle, they dominated
> the scenes.
>
> Who remembers "The Story of Hercules", "The Virgin and
> the Unicorn", and "St. George Slaying the Dragon"?
> These are all famous tapestries depicting mythical
> creatures, and are now in museums in Europe.  Even a
> tapestry in a church depicting "The Execution of St.
> Margaret and her Dragon" is still in one piece and on
> display.
>
> Even now, we hear and see mythical creatures all
> around us, from the dragons and griffins on our
> shields, to the mention of dragons and nymphs in the
> stories and poems that we hear around our campfires.
>
> Mythical creatures, sea-faring monsters, and grotesque
> beasts are a part of our past history.  They still
> live in paintings, stories, and in tapestries.
>
> Long life to these fantastic, fabled beasts of yore.
>
>
> "the inexcusable" Sorcha :)
>
> =====
> Lady Sorcha Fhionn inghean uiRuairc, AOA ......  Kingdom of the West;
> Holda,  Company of the Silver Spindle, West Kingdom Chapter;
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WKGoldenSpindle/
> http://www.angelfire.com/dragon2/dragonskeep
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Diane Thompson at Blackthistle Designs

To Scribes of the Known World (yes, please forward this):

It is one week until the beginning of Pennsic War and it is with joy
and sorrow that I write to you all. Due to personal reasons the
possibility is very real that I will be unable to attend Pennsic
this year.  However, the Known World Scribal Gathering will be held
at the Middle Kingdom Royal Encampment on Tuesday the 17th of August
from 3pm until 5pm.  It is with joy that I tell you my deputies have
graciously stepped into my place and will be your hostesses this
year, Mistress Ellen of the Scholars from the Middle Kingdom and
Lady Kayleigh McWhyte from the East Kingdom.

It is both kind and generous of the Dragon Thrones to allow us to
again gather within the confines of Their encampment and I, for one,
am certainly grateful. The space they give us every year to gather
allows us shade within the shelter of a large tent and offers
protection for the artworks we view while we wonder at the talents
of those among us.

I highly encourage you all to attend the Known World Scribal
Gathering and bring your works in progress, your works completed,
your portfolios, your knowledge, and your questions.  Please also
bring your friends! Each year a small number of people attend who
are interested in the scribal arts but who have yet to participate
in them. They always go away buzzing about what they will do and how
much fun it all seems. One doesn't need to be an active scribe to
attend; one only needs an interest in things scribal, so please do
extend this invitation to all who might have interest.

Again, finger-food-style snacks will be provided, as will drinks;
but please *bring your own drinking vessel*.  The food is usually on
a table nowhere near the objects of our meeting – the beautiful
works of art and amazing collections in portfolios that you all
bring each year for us to gaze upon.

Please, bring your works in progress, your works completed, your
portfolios, your knowledge, your questions, and those you know to be
interested in all things scribal to the Known World Scribal
Gathering at Pennsic War, Tuesday, August 17, from 3pm to 5pm within
the Middle Kingdom Royal Encampment.

Smiles,
Despina de la Brasov
Apprentice to Baron Wolfgang von Roessler, OL
Middle Kingdom Arts and Sciences Champion AS39
Midlands Regional Arts and Sciences Champion AS 38 and AS39

the boston celtics are an nba basketball team - home in boston, mass. larry
bird and patrick ewing ae 2 of the most well known fran aka lady snowwith faith,
trust and pixiedust....anything is possible :x

_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 8/2/2004 6:31:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
smnco37@... writes:


> Only you will know the difference. Those who view your completed projects
> almost certainly will not.

I think this depends on what the point of making the chairs was. If the point
is to get chairs, I think your point is well made. However, if the point is
to have the medieval experience of making the chairs...

Everyone seems to come to that with a different set of priorities.

Raquel
_______________________________________________________
Kamatz katan le'olam!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]