http://www.crosswinds.net/~harkweb/medhumor.html

Middle English riddles in translation;  doesn't give the answers on the page
(you have to e-mail your guesses in), but a sure thing to get people into
the medieval mode at an event is to ask them a riddle. ;)

Moshe
------------------------------------------------
The earth of humankind
contains all moistness,
     all verdancy,
     all germinating power.


                      --Hildegard von Bingen

Greetings, Lady Vittoria!  Welcome.  I'm glad you've decided to join us...

take a look at the link I just sent to the group...Using one of these jokes
re-appropriated to Italy could be just the thing to put the listener in the
mood.  I'm certainly going to tell a medieval Judeo-Spanish version of one
of them at some event.

Moshe
------------------------------------------------
The earth of humankind
contains all moistness,
     all verdancy,
     all germinating power.


                      --Hildegard von Bingen

----------
>From: Ariane Helou <ahelou@...>
>To: Authentic_SCA@egroups.com
>Subject: [Authentic_SCA] greetings
>Date: Fri, Dec 1, 2000, 6:39 AM
>

> Greetings to all,
> My name is Vittoria Aureli (mka Ariane Helou) of the College of Ste
> Katherine (University of California, Berkeley).  Vittoria is a 16th-century
> Florentine lady, the daughter of a wealthy merchant.  I've been active in
> the SCA for about a year and a half; my interests include fencing, dancing,
> music and other bardic arts, and cooking.
> The introductory letter suggests sharing "magic moments" or "horror
> stories" - and I haven't really got either.  My experience with the SCA has
> been that every time I start to get that general feeling of medievalness,
> something happens (a cell phone rings, people start up a conversation about
> computer games, or someone mentions Star Wars) that totally mars the
> atmosphere.  I know that cell phones are useful, games are fun, and I am of
> course an admirer of Han Solo, but I don't feel that these things have a
> place in a society which exists for the purpose of re-creating the
> lifestyle of former centuries.  Upon such occurrences, Moshe Mantega (a
> fellow Kate and, of course, moderator of this list) is wont to exclaim,
> "That's not period!" which usually gets a reaction of "don't be silly" ro
> "what does it matter?" :) Which, I suspect, is why he created this list
> :)  I don't necessarily want to see things alter completely; but I think it
> would be wonderful if everyone could try to have a little more thought for
> the reasons they are in the Society to begin with.  The ideal of the Dream
> is to escape totally from our modern lives and step into another
> world.  Just out of curiousity...do any of you have any little tricks to
> get the people around you at events to feel a little more authentic, and
> get them to step into a medieval mode more willingly?
> I think the problem of inauthentic atmosphere lies in lack of
> persona-play.  People always go by their SCA names, of course, but all are
> more likely to talk about their "mundane" personal history.  Or if they are
> "in persona," it often becomes farcical, with thick accents and exaggerated
> cultural stereotyping.  As a result, I have never felt comfortable going
> about as my persona, because I always slip back into talk about school, or
> Mozart, or my favorite tomato sauce, or other such glaringly modern
> topics.  I am more active in creating Vittoria's past while hanging out
> with my friends, or writing emails to fellow SCAdians, than I am at events.
> Because when no one else slips into character, neither can you.  A former
> Kates seneschale once told me that some people get offended when they talk
> about being in persona as "acting" - but the thing is, you have to act a
> little. Or role-play, whatever. You have to step outside yourself. And most
> people just don't seem to care for that. There is definitely a distinction
> the members of the populace pay attention to anachronisms, and those who
> don't seem to know the difference between a bardic circle and a
> beer-guzzling party, and don't care either. It is quite apparent that they
> haven't done a minute of research or a page of documentation for anything;
> they all seem to have names like Urg the Underdressed or Roblin the Rude or
> Barbaros Bonecrusher, they wear jeans under their tunics, think period
> music is boring and don't understand why potatoes are OOP.  So how are the
> rest of us to possibly feel *really* Medieval?  It would be truly wonderful
> if we all could make an effort towards authenticity, at every event.
> All right, this is way too long for an introduction - sorry if I've bored
> you all with my ranting, and I sincerely apologize if I've said anything
> untoward.  I hope to take part in some interesting discussions on this
> list, though, and I look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say
> (especially if any of you have good advice for creating an authentic
> atmosphere at events!).
>
> Lady Vittoria Aureli
> Chatelaine, College of Ste Katherine
> Principality of the Mists, West Kingdom.
> ----------------------------------
> Ariane Helou
> University of California, Berkeley
> Sophomore; double major in Integrative Biology and Classical Languages
>
>
> This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>

http://members.dencity.com/emteg/jokes/jokes.html

Although they don't give dates of origin for these jokes, they all seem
likely to have been told in our period.  Some can also be appropriated to
other cultures...

Moshe
------------------------------------------------
The earth of humankind
contains all moistness,
     all verdancy,
     all germinating power.


                      --Hildegard von Bingen

Greetings to all,
My name is Vittoria Aureli (mka Ariane Helou) of the College of Ste
Katherine (University of California, Berkeley).  Vittoria is a 16th-century
Florentine lady, the daughter of a wealthy merchant.  I've been active in
the SCA for about a year and a half; my interests include fencing, dancing,
music and other bardic arts, and cooking.
The introductory letter suggests sharing "magic moments" or "horror
stories" - and I haven't really got either.  My experience with the SCA has
been that every time I start to get that general feeling of medievalness,
something happens (a cell phone rings, people start up a conversation about
computer games, or someone mentions Star Wars) that totally mars the
atmosphere.  I know that cell phones are useful, games are fun, and I am of
course an admirer of Han Solo, but I don't feel that these things have a
place in a society which exists for the purpose of re-creating the
lifestyle of former centuries.  Upon such occurrences, Moshe Mantega (a
fellow Kate and, of course, moderator of this list) is wont to exclaim,
"That's not period!" which usually gets a reaction of "don't be silly" ro
"what does it matter?" :) Which, I suspect, is why he created this list
:)  I don't necessarily want to see things alter completely; but I think it
would be wonderful if everyone could try to have a little more thought for
the reasons they are in the Society to begin with.  The ideal of the Dream
is to escape totally from our modern lives and step into another
world.  Just out of curiousity...do any of you have any little tricks to
get the people around you at events to feel a little more authentic, and
get them to step into a medieval mode more willingly?
I think the problem of inauthentic atmosphere lies in lack of
persona-play.  People always go by their SCA names, of course, but all are
more likely to talk about their "mundane" personal history.  Or if they are
"in persona," it often becomes farcical, with thick accents and exaggerated
cultural stereotyping.  As a result, I have never felt comfortable going
about as my persona, because I always slip back into talk about school, or
Mozart, or my favorite tomato sauce, or other such glaringly modern
topics.  I am more active in creating Vittoria's past while hanging out
with my friends, or writing emails to fellow SCAdians, than I am at events.
Because when no one else slips into character, neither can you.  A former
Kates seneschale once told me that some people get offended when they talk
about being in persona as "acting" - but the thing is, you have to act a
little. Or role-play, whatever. You have to step outside yourself. And most
people just don't seem to care for that. There is definitely a distinction
the members of the populace pay attention to anachronisms, and those who
don't seem to know the difference between a bardic circle and a
beer-guzzling party, and don't care either. It is quite apparent that they
haven't done a minute of research or a page of documentation for anything;
they all seem to have names like Urg the Underdressed or Roblin the Rude or
Barbaros Bonecrusher, they wear jeans under their tunics, think period
music is boring and don't understand why potatoes are OOP.  So how are the
rest of us to possibly feel *really* Medieval?  It would be truly wonderful
if we all could make an effort towards authenticity, at every event.
All right, this is way too long for an introduction - sorry if I've bored
you all with my ranting, and I sincerely apologize if I've said anything
untoward.  I hope to take part in some interesting discussions on this
list, though, and I look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say
(especially if any of you have good advice for creating an authentic
atmosphere at events!).

Lady Vittoria Aureli
Chatelaine, College of Ste Katherine
Principality of the Mists, West Kingdom.
----------------------------------
Ariane Helou
University of California, Berkeley
Sophomore; double major in Integrative Biology and Classical Languages

> Hemp is terribly expensive since it's not allowed to be grown in the US.  It
> often exceeds $18 a yard (more than silk!).  I would suggest using linen as
> a substitute.  It looks very similar and is from a similar plant.  Go to
> fabrics-store.com for great prices.  Also, since silk can sometimes be had
> for $6 a yard, try silkconnection.com.  Just avoid making things out of silk
> noil (aka "raw silk").  It's not period and it tends to fall apart.

Okay, thanks...

> By the way, sashiko quilting started in the 18th century.  But if you're
> doing it for non-SCA purposes, go right ahead.

Oh, really?  I don't mean the patterned kind, but the utilitarian straight
kind for repairing garments...would that be period?  If not, how would the
non-nobility have repaired their old clothes?  I love the look of
well-wornedness (not a word, but then again, I don't speak these Western
tongues so well ;)).  With my Jewish garb, I have tried to get the same
"worn look" you see in National Geographic pictures of Middle-Easterners...

Moshe
--------------------------
Todo callado, todo 'stava'n silencio,
Como la nuve'n a la escuridad.
"Miseravle! Porqué vienes agora
Arecordarme del mal que yo pasí,
Arecordarme de toda la mi vida?"
--anon. sefardí

Oh, wow!  I recently was raving about the cool people I've met/heard about
on-line to some other SCAdians (I was explaining why I feel like the SCA is
cooler when reading/talking to people about it on-line than when I'm
actually at events ;)) and you and your friend were certainly at the top of
the list!
>>>>
Thanks, Moshe.  You do our hearts good.
>>>>
Why doesn't Master Edward have a Japanese persona? ;) Or does he?
>>>>
He does.  He just had this one for so long that he is afraid to start
calling himself something else for fear no one would know him.
>>>>
Yes!  thank you very much for putting that up there.  I'm going to go
looking for some hemp fabric sometime soon and try my hand at some sashiko
quilting...Is hemp terribly expensive?
>>>>
Hemp is terribly expensive since it's not allowed to be grown in the US.  It
often exceeds $18 a yard (more than silk!).  I would suggest using linen as
a substitute.  It looks very similar and is from a similar plant.  Go to
fabrics-store.com for great prices.  Also, since silk can sometimes be had
for $6 a yard, try silkconnection.com.  Just avoid making things out of silk
noil (aka "raw silk").  It's not period and it tends to fall apart.

By the way, sashiko quilting started in the 18th century.  But if you're
doing it for non-SCA purposes, go right ahead.
>>>>
Thanks also for the name hints...I'm at a university so I have access to a
great library as well as some great faculty...I suppose I should take
advantage of that. ;)  I've definitely done it with medieval music, so names
and costumes are next on my list.
>>>>
Good for you!

Kass/Fujiwara

Shalom Doña Fujiwara,

I was wondering if you could help me with a possible Muromachi period
persona:

I want to wear more peasant-ish clothing, yet I also want to participate in
more courtly arts such as poetry, calligraphy, painting, etc...If there is
no way that I could be a villager and still practice those arts, then I will
consider dressing as a lesser noble.  Or perhaps I can be a zen monk?  Of
course, I would have to shave my head...Arrghh!

BTW--Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!

Your correspondent from the West (Western for now, anyways),
--Moshe ha-'Ebed ben Yishma'el
(Don Mossé Mantega)
(Sayyad Musa ibn Isma'il al-'Abri al-Kastilya)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
     Sing for joy to the Lord, all the earth!
     Worship the Lord gladly,
         and come before him with joyful songs!
     (Psalm 100:1-2)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


----------
>From: "Stephen Higa" <mitsuo@...>
>To: Authentic_SCA@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Kamakura
>Date: Tue, Nov 21, 2000, 6:55 PM
>

>
>> Well, I came by it honestly.  It was my major in college (BA in Japanese
>> Studies) and I spent my junior year living with a family in Kyoto.
>>
>> I might mention that I don't speak medieval/classical Japanese, which is
>> quite a different thing.  But I have a friend who does (Master Edward of
>> Effingham, mundanely studying for his Ph.D. in the subject).  He often
>> baffles me with poetry in that language!
>
> Oh, wow!  I recently was raving about the cool people I've met/heard about
> on-line to some other SCAdians (I was explaining why I feel like the SCA is
> cooler when reading/talking to people about it on-line than when I'm
> actually at events ;)) and you and your friend were certainly at the top of
> the list!
>
> Why doesn't Master Edward have a Japanese persona? ;) Or does he?
>
>> Have you seen my article on beginning Japanese garb:
>> http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/Jap123s.html
>>
>> The figures aren't there yet, but I'll try to have them up today or tomrrow.
>
> Yes!  thank you very much for putting that up there.  I'm going to go
> looking for some hemp fabric sometime soon and try my hand at some sashiko
> quilting...Is hemp terribly expensive?
>
> Thanks also for the name hints...I'm at a university so I have access to a
> great library as well as some great faculty...I suppose I should take
> advantage of that. ;)  I've definitely done it with medieval music, so names
> and costumes are next on my list.
>
> el Dió vos guadre,
> --Moshe ha-'Ebed ben Yishma'el
> (Don Mossé Mantega)
> (Sayyad Musa ibn Isma'il al-'Abri al-Kastilya)
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>     Sing for joy to the Lord, all the earth!
>     Worship the Lord gladly,
>         and come before him with joyful songs!
>     (Psalm 100:1-2)
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
> This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>

> Well, I came by it honestly.  It was my major in college (BA in Japanese
> Studies) and I spent my junior year living with a family in Kyoto.
>
> I might mention that I don't speak medieval/classical Japanese, which is
> quite a different thing.  But I have a friend who does (Master Edward of
> Effingham, mundanely studying for his Ph.D. in the subject).  He often
> baffles me with poetry in that language!

Oh, wow!  I recently was raving about the cool people I've met/heard about
on-line to some other SCAdians (I was explaining why I feel like the SCA is
cooler when reading/talking to people about it on-line than when I'm
actually at events ;)) and you and your friend were certainly at the top of
the list!

Why doesn't Master Edward have a Japanese persona? ;) Or does he?

> Have you seen my article on beginning Japanese garb:
> http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/Jap123s.html
>
> The figures aren't there yet, but I'll try to have them up today or tomrrow.

Yes!  thank you very much for putting that up there.  I'm going to go
looking for some hemp fabric sometime soon and try my hand at some sashiko
quilting...Is hemp terribly expensive?

Thanks also for the name hints...I'm at a university so I have access to a
great library as well as some great faculty...I suppose I should take
advantage of that. ;)  I've definitely done it with medieval music, so names
and costumes are next on my list.

el Dió vos guadre,
--Moshe ha-'Ebed ben Yishma'el
(Don Mossé Mantega)
(Sayyad Musa ibn Isma'il al-'Abri al-Kastilya)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
     Sing for joy to the Lord, all the earth!
     Worship the Lord gladly,
         and come before him with joyful songs!
     (Psalm 100:1-2)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Shalom, Lady Fujiwara!

I am very impressed at your hat-making skills!  I don't know if I'd ever
have patience to do that myself. ;)  I also love your Pennsic story!  I'm
happy that you can actually speak Japanese...Not many Arab personae can
speak Arabic, likewise Anglo-Saxon, Medieval Spanish (as opposed to the
modern version which many people like to speak; any Spanish I use is 12th
c.), Norse, etc.  I'm just generally impressed!
>>>>
Well, I came by it honestly.  It was my major in college (BA in Japanese
Studies) and I spent my junior year living with a family in Kyoto.

I might mention that I don't speak medieval/classical Japanese, which is
quite a different thing.  But I have a friend who does (Master Edward of
Effingham, mundanely studying for his Ph.D. in the subject).  He often
baffles me with poetry in that language!
>>>>
This is a picture of me at the Renaissance Faire.  At the SCA event, I tied
my hair up underneath the cloth and bound my legs with strips of linen up to
the knees.  I need to actually make a period kosode (the one I'm wearing has
wrong sleeves; the modern kind).
>>>>
The impression looks great, though.

Have you seen my article on beginning Japanese garb:
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/Jap123s.html

The figures aren't there yet, but I'll try to have them up today or tomrrow.
>>>>
Oh, about 16th c. naming practices:  would it be "given name" no "family
name"?  So, like Mitsuo no Higa?  (Alright, Higa is Okinawan and Mitsuo may
not be period, but I'll find an actual 16th c. Japanese name.  Mitsuo and
Higa are my mundane middle and last names).
>>>>
I admit that I am not an expert on medieval naming practices, but it has
been "Family name" no "given name" since time immemorial.  I don't know
enough to tell you, however, whether Higa no Mitsuo would be period-correct
or not.

Fujiwara is my surname.  But it is terribly impolite to call someone by
their given name in Japanese society of that time.  Even my lord would not
"embarass" me like that in public, though he may call me "Aoi" in private.
Medieval Japanese is very well understood but a very different thing from
the modern world.  Many famous people are only known by their nicknames
today (Murasaki Shikibu, Sei Shonagon, Lady Sarashina...) because of the
fact that it was rude to be so direct as to say someone's name.

Your correspondent from the East,
Fujiwara

Shalom, Lady Fujiwara!

I am very impressed at your hat-making skills!  I don't know if I'd ever
have patience to do that myself. ;)  I also love your Pennsic story!  I'm
happy that you can actually speak Japanese...Not many Arab personae can
speak Arabic, likewise Anglo-Saxon, Medieval Spanish (as opposed to the
modern version which many people like to speak; any Spanish I use is 12th
c.), Norse, etc.  I'm just generally impressed!

This is a picture of me at the Renaissance Faire.  At the SCA event, I tied
my hair up underneath the cloth and bound my legs with strips of linen up to
the knees.  I need to actually make a period kosode (the one I'm wearing has
wrong sleeves; the modern kind).

Oh, about 16th c. naming practices:  would it be "given name" no "family
name"?  So, like Mitsuo no Higa?  (Alright, Higa is Okinawan and Mitsuo may
not be period, but I'll find an actual 16th c. Japanese name.  Mitsuo and
Higa are my mundane middle and last names).

el Dio vos vala,
Moshe
--------------------------
Todo callado, todo 'stava'n silencio,
Como la nuve'n a la escuridad.
"Miseravle! Porqué vienes agora
Arecordarme del mal que yo pasí,
Arecordarme de toda la mi vida?"
--anon. sefardí

Lady Fujiwara, I just saw that picture on your website of you as a Kamakura
lady at Pennsic!  It sent shivers down my spine; you look exactly like you
just stepped out of an old Japanese woodblock print.  The background even
looks like you're in Japan.
>>>>
You are too kind!
>>>>
Bravo!  My admiration knows no bounds!  Did you
make the hat yourself?
>>>>
I did make the hat myself.  It is called "tsubozoshoku" and it functions to
keep bugs and sunlight from one's face.  It also discourages the gaze of
others, as we are supposed to hide our faces from all but intimates.  It is
made from willow basketry reeds with a silk gauze veil sewn to the edge.
>>>>
Do tell us about your garb!
>>>>
It is very simple, as are all things in the Kamakura period.  I wear a white
kosode in fuji broadcloth silk and red ankle-'ength hakama in a satin twill.
I dyed the hakama myself, but it was a commercial dye.  This fall, I am
dyeing a pair of long (naga-) hakama with real safflower.  Anyway, the uwagi
or overrobe is brocaded with a pattern of pine needles.  My homestay mother
in Kyoto gave this fabric to me when she found out I was studying Japanese
dress.  It is actually a Autumn colour (pine), but August is considered
Autumn in Japan.
>>>>
Do you have any good stories from Pennsic about you being Japanese?
>>>>
I do.  Two gentlemen were at Pennsic that day and stopped me to take a
picture.  One was American and the other Japanese.  Not knowing that I spoke
the language, the Japanese gentleman said to his friend (in Japanese),
""Damn, she looks like the real thing!"  It was the best compliment that
I've ever gotten.  These gentlemen are responsible for that picture you see.
>>>>
P.S. I hope you can get some pictures of your encampment up on your site!  I
would really love to see it.
>>>
Dearest Moshe,

Not likely since my encampment is not uniformly anything.  You see, Heian
ladies don't "camp"!

Fujiwara

Lady Fujiwara, I just saw that picture on your website of you as a Kamakura
lady at Pennsic!  It sent shivers down my spine; you look exactly like you
just stepped out of an old Japanese woodblock print.  The background even
looks like you're in Japan.  Bravo!  My admiration knows no bounds!  Did you
make the hat yourself?  Do tell us about your garb!  Do you have any good
stories from Pennsic about you being Japanese?

Moshe Mantega

P.S. I hope you can get some pictures of your encampment up on your site!  I
would really love to see it.
--------------------------
Todo callado, todo 'stava'n silencio,
Como la nuve'n a la escuridad.
"Miseravle! Porqué vienes agora
Arecordarme del mal que yo pasí,
Arecordarme de toda la mi vida?"
--anon. sefardí

Shalom, all!

I was just perusing this site (in Stefan's Florilegium) regarding "magical
moments" in the SCA--I was wondering:  have any of you experienced any
moments when, even for a moment, you felt as if you actually were in the
Middle Ages?  I always love reading about those. :)  Once some other people
post, I'll try to think of some of mine.

Moshe
--------------------------
Todo callado, todo 'stava'n silencio,
Como la nuve'n a la escuridad.
"Miseravle! Porqué vienes agora
Arecordarme del mal que yo pasí,
Arecordarme de toda la mi vida?"
--anon. sefardí

Unfortunately, according to my understanding, actual manuscripts are scarce
or nonexistant.  Of course, we sometimes get biblical cantillation symbols
for medieval Jewish biblical texts, but aside from that...Occasionally the
lyrics to songs in the modern oral traditions bear close resemblance to the
documentably medieval texts, so some inferences can be made from that.

Parallel Christian traditions supposed to be influenced by non-western
musics (i.e., the Cantigas de Santa Maria, dance music, troubadour songs)
can also provide important clues.  I was looking through a book on Medieval
Jewish music, and it provided a rare example of a documentably period Ladino
folk song, "Ea Judios"--I played the melody from the given notation, and
found that it bore a STRIKING resemblance to Cantiga 100, "Santa Maria
strela do dia"...

There's a book published by UC Berkeley I'm currently trying to find called
"Ten Hispano-Arabic Songs in the Modern Oral Tradition" by James Monroe and
Benjamin Liu.  I've heard that this is an excellent resource for tracing
traditional muwashshahat to their medieval roots.  So that's a good book to
try and get a hold of, if you can find it.

en serviçio del sueño,
Moshe Mantega
--------------------------
Todo callado, todo 'stava'n silencio,
Como la nuve'n a la escuridad.
"Miseravle! Porqué vienes agora
Arecordarme del mal que yo pasí,
Arecordarme de toda la mi vida?"
--anon. sefardí

----------
>From: spanogle@...
>To: Authentic_SCA@egroups.com
>Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Ethnic Medieval Music
>Date: Wed, Nov 8, 2000, 10:49 AM
>

>
> What I'm hoping for at this point is references to help me find the
> medieval and Renaissance sources of non-Christian music, if there are
> any.  Especially helpful would be transcriptions of the medieval
> notation into modern, and transcriptions and/or translations of
> Hebrew, Arabic or Ladino texts.  I'm basically hoping for something
> like what Van Der Werf did with the troubadour manuscripts, or what
> has been done for the Cantigas de Santa Maria.  Since I'm just
> starting out, I don't know if that sort of scholarly material exists
> for any non-Western/Christian traditions.  At this point I don't
> really even know what exists in the way of original manuscripts.
>
> Am I hoping for too much?  Is any of this out there?
>
> Yours in Service,
> Teleri ferch Morgant
>
>
> --- In Authentic_SCA@egroups.com, "Stephen Higa" <mitsuo@u...> wrote:
>>
>> My suggestion:  find the period texts, find out all you can about
> the music that would've been associated with it (particularly rhythm,
> modes, theory, etc.), listen to the modern traditions, and formulate
> a melody for the text based on that knowledge.  Of course, the modern
> "Andalusian" musical tradition in North Africa claims unbroken
> continuity with the medieval Arabo-Andalusian tradition, and those
> Ladino songs also seem to have unbroken links to 15th c. Spain, but
> since we can't be sure, it might be the better bet to create melodies
> anew using the documentably medieval text.  My current project is an
> 11th/12th c. Hebrew muwashshah, and in the past I've done the same
> with Beowulf.  The medieval music ensemble Altramar (whom I've linked
> in the "Links" section) also does this.
>>
>> e sirviessen a vos,
>> Moshe Mantega
>
>
>
>
> This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>

> > > I have been researching and singing Medieval and Renaissance music
> > > for a while now and was wondering if any one could help me with
> > > sources.  I am specifically interested in finding out more about
> > > Jewish, Muslim or other non-Christian festival music.  I have found
> > > modern editions of a couple of 15th century Ladino folk ballads, but
> > > that's the closest so far.  All of the Purim songs I have come across
> > > are "traditional" and probably not much older than 1900.  Looking at
> > > the posts on the list so far, I was hoping there might be people here
> > > with some expertise who could help me out.
>
> Thanks for having an interest in medieval music!  Unfortunately for your
> search, and to the best of my knowledge, few sources indeed exist which
> can help you.  I am unfamiliar with Jewish or Muslim music of any sort
> (other than that which exists to this day for dance accompaniment), and
> sources of western European non-liturgical music are, at least for early-
> to mid-period music are, shall we say, sparse.
>
> If I could, let me ask for more specifics -- what precisely do you mean
> by "festival music?"  Most of the non-liturgical music extant may be
> loosely described as "festival" music, as it was used in some celebration
> or other.
>
> I hope I can be of assistance,
>
> -Robert fitz Thomas
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Robert Davis: Brewer, Historian
> Dolor est fugax. Gloria perennis. Puellae
> cicatricibus gaudent.
>

What I'm hoping for at this point is references to help me find the
medieval and Renaissance sources of non-Christian music, if there are
any.  Especially helpful would be transcriptions of the medieval
notation into modern, and transcriptions and/or translations of
Hebrew, Arabic or Ladino texts.  I'm basically hoping for something
like what Van Der Werf did with the troubadour manuscripts, or what
has been done for the Cantigas de Santa Maria.  Since I'm just
starting out, I don't know if that sort of scholarly material exists
for any non-Western/Christian traditions.  At this point I don't
really even know what exists in the way of original manuscripts.

Am I hoping for too much?  Is any of this out there?

Yours in Service,
Teleri ferch Morgant


--- In Authentic_SCA@egroups.com, "Stephen Higa" <mitsuo@u...> wrote:
>
> My suggestion:  find the period texts, find out all you can about
the music that would've been associated with it (particularly rhythm,
modes, theory, etc.), listen to the modern traditions, and formulate
a melody for the text based on that knowledge.  Of course, the modern
"Andalusian" musical tradition in North Africa claims unbroken
continuity with the medieval Arabo-Andalusian tradition, and those
Ladino songs also seem to have unbroken links to 15th c. Spain, but
since we can't be sure, it might be the better bet to create melodies
anew using the documentably medieval text.  My current project is an
11th/12th c. Hebrew muwashshah, and in the past I've done the same
with Beowulf.  The medieval music ensemble Altramar (whom I've linked
in the "Links" section) also does this.
>
> e sirviessen a vos,
> Moshe Mantega

Doña Teleri,

I got this reply from the North African music guy...sorry it's not that
helpful, but you might find something in that book and the recording.  Of
course, the Cantigas won't be much help (you're looking for non-Christian
music, right?), but the recording should be of use.

Moshe
--------------------------
Todo callado, todo 'stava'n silencio,
Como la nuve'n a la escuridad.
"Miseravle! Porqué vienes agora
Arecordarme del mal que yo pasí,
Arecordarme de toda la mi vida?"
--anon. sefardí

----------
From: "Fernan Cobian" <gaiteru@...>
To: "Stephen Higa" <mitsuo@...>
Subject: RE: FW: [Authentic_SCA] Ethnic Medieval Music
Date: Sun, Nov 5, 2000, 6:46 PM


Shalom Stephen,

Sorry, I don't know a specific resource for Medieval festival music. When
it comes to Medieval festival music all I could think of is a few tunes
from the Cantigas de Santa Maria. Joseph F. O'Callaghan has referenced this
in his book 'Alfonso and the Cantigas de Santa Maria'(ISBN 90-04-11023-2).
Unfortunately he does not provide the music, only the reference.
I picked up a cool CD, 'Music of the Oriental Jews from North Africa ,
Yemen & Bukhara' from Arc Music Int.These are field recordings made in 1957
by ethnomusicologist Deben Bhattacharya. I picked it up at Virgin music
store, and the recordings are great.
Take care,

Fernan Cobian


> [Original Message]
> From: Stephen Higa <mitsuo@...>
> To: Fernan (Rachid) <gaiteru@...>; Aisha (La Flautista)
<flautista@...>
> Date: 11/3/00 11:32:07 AM
> Subject: FW: [Authentic_SCA] Ethnic Medieval Music
>
> Shalom, Aisha e Fernan!  I got this message from my eGroup, Authentic_SCA.
> I thought perhaps you might be able to help them...maybe you can send your
> responses to me, and I'll forward them to the list!
>
> Grado!
> Moshe Mantega
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> There is one who ascends with all these songs in unison--the song of the
> soul, the song of the nation, the song of humanity, the song of the
> cosmos--resounding together, blending in harmony, circulating the sap of
> life, the sound of holy joy.
> --from the Orot ha-Qodesh, by Abraham Isaac
>
> ----------
> From: spanogle@...
> To: Authentic_SCA@egroups.com
> Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Ethnic Medieval Music
> Date: Fri, Nov 3, 2000, 9:17 AM
>
>
> I have been researching and singing Medieval and Renaissance music
> for a while now and was wondering if any one could help me with
> sources.  I am specifically interested in finding out more about
> Jewish, Muslim or other non-Christian festival music.  I have found
> modern editions of a couple of 15th century Ladino folk ballads, but
> that's the closest so far.  All of the Purim songs I have come across
> are "traditional" and probably not much older than 1900.  Looking at
> the posts on the list so far, I was hoping there might be people here
> with some expertise who could help me out.
>
> Yours in Service,
> Lady Teleri
>
>
>
>
> This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>

> Thanks, that's good advice.  I consulted the sca-judaica list, and I came
up
> with the solution that I AM married, to Constanza Portales just last year.
> I don't let her go to events, because she is still young and who knows
what
> these crazy drunken men might do?  I want to be the age I am now, and as
> years pass for me, years pass for Moshe.  Except for Moshe, the year is
> 1164.

I think that is a wonderful solution, Moshe!

> Hee hee, I used that excuse when I went Japanese to the Renaissance Faire.
> People would be trying to get my sister and I into their stores when I
> didn't have any interest in going, so I would consult my sister in
Japanese
> and she would tell the merchants that she was very sorry, but her friend
> doesn't speak English very well. :)  One merchant must've thought we were
> serious, and said in a very apologetic voice, "oh, that's okay." :)

<tittering behind my fan>  Hee hee hee hee hee

Kass/Fujiwara

He's a medieval musicologist??  Wow!
>>>>
He doesn't actually earn his living that way, unfortunately.  It was just
his major in college and something he is passionate about in the SCA.

He earns his living as the assistant brewer at a microbrewery, which isn't
so bad either...  ;)

Kass

Thanks, that's good advice.  I consulted the sca-judaica list, and I came up
with the solution that I AM married, to Constanza Portales just last year.
I don't let her go to events, because she is still young and who knows what
these crazy drunken men might do?  I want to be the age I am now, and as
years pass for me, years pass for Moshe.  Except for Moshe, the year is
1164.

> Of course I sometimes use the fallback that I do not speak these
> Western tongues so well and perhaps I do not understand so well
> either.  =)

Hee hee, I used that excuse when I went Japanese to the Renaissance Faire.
People would be trying to get my sister and I into their stores when I
didn't have any interest in going, so I would consult my sister in Japanese
and she would tell the merchants that she was very sorry, but her friend
doesn't speak English very well. :)  One merchant must've thought we were
serious, and said in a very apologetic voice, "oh, that's okay." :)

Moshe
--------------------------------------------------------
Awake, Awake, O My Soul!
Awake, O My Heart!
The Beloved draws near!
Throw off the heavy covers,
the wrinkled bedclothes, laden with slumber!
Tear open the shutters, open wide the door!
--Moshe ibn Yishma'el (12th c.)

He's a medieval musicologist??  Wow!

I have some friends into medieval North African music.  I'll forward your
message to them, too.

My suggestion:  find the period texts, find out all you can about the music
that would've been associated with it (particularly rhythm, modes, theory,
etc.), listen to the modern traditions, and formulate a melody for the text
based on that knowledge.  Of course, the modern "Andalusian" musical
tradition in North Africa claims unbroken continuity with the medieval
Arabo-Andalusian tradition, and those Ladino songs also seem to have
unbroken links to 15th c. Spain, but since we can't be sure, it might be the
better bet to create melodies anew using the documentably medieval text.  My
current project is an 11th/12th c. Hebrew muwashshah, and in the past I've
done the same with Beowulf.  The medieval music ensemble Altramar (whom I've
linked in the "Links" section) also does this.

e sirviessen a vos,
Moshe Mantega
--------------------------
Todo callado, todo 'stava'n silencio,
Como la nuve'n a la escuridad.
"Miseravle! Porqué vienes agora
Arecordarme del mal que yo pasí,
Arecordarme de toda la mi vida?"
--anon. sefardí

----------
>From: "Kass McGann" <historian@...>
>To: <Authentic_SCA@egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Ethnic Medieval Music
>Date: Fri, Nov 3, 2000, 9:36 AM
>

> Dear Lady Teleri,
>
> My Lord is mundanely a medieval musicologist and I will forward this email
> to him.  He should respond to you within a week.
>
> In your service,
> Caisin nic Annaidh
> aka Kass McGann
>
>
>> I have been researching and singing Medieval and Renaissance music
>> for a while now and was wondering if any one could help me with
>> sources.  I am specifically interested in finding out more about
>> Jewish, Muslim or other non-Christian festival music.  I have found
>> modern editions of a couple of 15th century Ladino folk ballads, but
>> that's the closest so far.  All of the Purim songs I have come across
>> are "traditional" and probably not much older than 1900.  Looking at
>> the posts on the list so far, I was hoping there might be people here
>> with some expertise who could help me out.
>>
>> Yours in Service,
>> Lady Teleri
>
>
>
>
> This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>

Dear Lady Teleri,

My Lord is mundanely a medieval musicologist and I will forward this email
to him.  He should respond to you within a week.

In your service,
Caisin nic Annaidh
aka Kass McGann


> I have been researching and singing Medieval and Renaissance music
> for a while now and was wondering if any one could help me with
> sources.  I am specifically interested in finding out more about
> Jewish, Muslim or other non-Christian festival music.  I have found
> modern editions of a couple of 15th century Ladino folk ballads, but
> that's the closest so far.  All of the Purim songs I have come across
> are "traditional" and probably not much older than 1900.  Looking at
> the posts on the list so far, I was hoping there might be people here
> with some expertise who could help me out.
>
> Yours in Service,
> Lady Teleri

I have been researching and singing Medieval and Renaissance music
for a while now and was wondering if any one could help me with
sources.  I am specifically interested in finding out more about
Jewish, Muslim or other non-Christian festival music.  I have found
modern editions of a couple of 15th century Ladino folk ballads, but
that's the closest so far.  All of the Purim songs I have come across
are "traditional" and probably not much older than 1900.  Looking at
the posts on the list so far, I was hoping there might be people here
with some expertise who could help me out.

Yours in Service,
Lady Teleri

> Oh, Doña Aoi: at a feast this past weekend, I encountered similar
problems
> with dealing with my persona's relation to food.  As a Heian lady,
you have
> reserves about eating in public?  Well, Moshe, being a Jewish
mystic, is
> somewhat ascetic.  I do avoid meats and alcoholic beverages, but
there were
> many other fancy foods there in which I partook...I thought
everyone else
> might not notice, but I got into a conversation with a girl from my
group
> who's persona is from around Jerusalem, and she chided me for being
a holy
> man and still feasting with the rest of them.  What might be a good
> response?  I, in turn, chided her for drinking wine and eating meat
that was
> processed by Gentiles (non-kosher!)... ;)

Well done, Moshe!

> Oh, and what happens if someone asks you a question your persona
should know
> off-hand, but you don't?

I generally do what you did.  I take my knowledge of my persona
and "fudge" an answer.  No one expects you to be perfect all the
time.  And chances are the person with whom you are conversing will
not know if you are stretching the truth a bit.  I mean, after all,
is it entirely out of the realm of possibility that there was a
Jewish man in Spain whose family tradition was one of marrying later
than their neighbours?  It could be.

Personally, I am in my thirties and would be very old by Heian
standards.  But I portray a young childless woman.  To my mind, it is
the same as pretending I am Asian -- it's part of the role.  We
mutually suspend our disbelief.

Of course I sometimes use the fallback that I do not speak these
Western tongues so well and perhaps I do not understand so well
either.  =)

> Sorry so long...I originally didn't know what to write, but then I
just
> couldn't stop...

It happens...

Fujiwara no Aoi

Hey--if any of you guys have good links, please do post them on the links
page!  :)

Don Mosse Mantega, fijo de Içmel
Moshe ha-'ebed ben Yishma'el
Musa ibn Isma'il al-'Abri al-Kastilya
(I get to have all these cool names!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
By a veiled crescent moon; a human Gazelle, surpassing other Gazelles.
Oh, would that I knew whether I will win him, or gain consolation!
--ibn Zuhr (12th c.)

> Moshe,
>
> I used to be subscribed to the authenticity group here at egroups.
> It was good for a while.  Then the discussion just kind of dropped
> off.  I unsubscribed when I realized all I was getting were the "This
> Week in History" updates and no one was talking at all.

Oh, well, that's not good...Don't be worried that no one's talking in this
group yet!  It'll be a while I guess before people have anything to say.

Oh, Doña Aoi: at a feast this past weekend, I encountered similar problems
with dealing with my persona's relation to food.  As a Heian lady, you have
reserves about eating in public?  Well, Moshe, being a Jewish mystic, is
somewhat ascetic.  I do avoid meats and alcoholic beverages, but there were
many other fancy foods there in which I partook...I thought everyone else
might not notice, but I got into a conversation with a girl from my group
who's persona is from around Jerusalem, and she chided me for being a holy
man and still feasting with the rest of them.  What might be a good
response?  I, in turn, chided her for drinking wine and eating meat that was
processed by Gentiles (non-kosher!)... ;)

Oh, and what happens if someone asks you a question your persona should know
off-hand, but you don't?  In the process of the conversation, I mentioned
that I had not read the Talmud in full, because I was only 19.  Then, later
on, she asked me why I was not married yet.  Now, I have no idea when the
expected marriage age for a Jewish person in 12th c. Spain would be (as
opposed to 10th c. Jerusalem), but I ended up saying something that sounded
right: men in our country wait longer before marriage in order to set up an
appropriate house and financial situation for his younger future wife.  And
then I did the worst of all: I made up some details about my persona story,
concerning the ages of my parents and sister when they were married!  I said
that my father was 29 or 30 years, and my mother was 16.  Then I said that
my sister married our old Rabbi's son Yehudi (a detail I had already in my
persona story) but then I said that she married him when she was 20 and he
28.  Forgive me!  I hope the Jerusalemite (a word?) doesn't remember to hold
me to those details once I find out the proper answers.  Does anyone happen
to know?

Sorry so long...I originally didn't know what to write, but then I just
couldn't stop...

Moshe, fijo de Yishma'el
--------------------------------------------------------
Awake, Awake, O My Soul!
Awake, O My Heart!
The Beloved draws near!
Throw off the heavy covers,
the wrinkled bedclothes, laden with slumber!
Tear open the shutters, open wide the door!
--Moshe ibn Yishma'el (12th c.)

--- In Authentic_SCA@egroups.com, "Stephen Higa" <mitsuo@u...> wrote:
> salud, Lady Fujiwara!  I was just made aware of another group
already
> in existence that addresses some of the concerns I wish to address
in
> this group.  http://www.egroups.com/group/authenticity
>
> Perhaps if no one else joins this group, we can pick up camp and
move
> to that group!

Moshe,

I used to be subscribed to the authenticity group here at egroups.
It was good for a while.  Then the discussion just kind of dropped
off.  I unsubscribed when I realized all I was getting were the "This
Week in History" updates and no one was talking at all.

Of course I haven't peered in on them since the summer, so I have no
idea if they are active or not.

Aoi

salud, Lady Fujiwara!  I was just made aware of another group already
in existence that addresses some of the concerns I wish to address in
this group.  http://www.egroups.com/group/authenticity

Perhaps if no one else joins this group, we can pick up camp and move
to that group!

Shalom,
Moshe Mant

Salud, and welcome to the Authentic SCA eGroup!  My name is Moshe Mantega
(aka Stephen Higa) and I'm a second-year student at the College of St.
Katherine (UC Berkeley) with a major in history.  My personal  interests
involve medieval music (I've actually been made a lord now, too, for my
endeavors to recreate medieval musical traditions... :), and medieval Jewish
religious thought and mysticism.

As I said on the main page, please enjoy this list as a forum for helping
each other grow in our historical accuracy and persona development.  We
should get discussions going about anything from clothing to food to music,
as well as philosophical discussions regarding persona-play.

I also hope to attract a healthy number of non-European personas to this
group.  Their stories about persona-play are quite interesting because they
are not only removed in time but in cultural climate as well.  I want to
hear tales of Japanese women interacting with Westerners, Indian ascetics
coming into contact with high medieval decadance, or even a Jewish mystic
warning his Gentile neighbors about venturing out alone on the night after
Sabbath for fear of certain demons.

You know what?  I'd like to see some religious ascetics in the SCA.  We seem
to have a few beggars, so why not ascetics?  I'm sure there must be some out
there.  Moshe is actually a bit ascetic, so he refrains from fancy foods,
fancy clothes, and intoxicants.  The aforementioned example of a Jewish
mystic warning his Gentile neighbors is actually something from my own
experience. :)

el Dio vos vala,
Don Moshe Mantega
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Foldatz ed e leujaria
quar part vostres mandamens
vos am, pero per nuls sens
ma foudat no'm camiaria."
--Berenguer de Palol (12th c.)