I have just joined, and thought I would introduce myself. Although I have been
working on my tree for 10 years, I only had my DNA tested last fall. According
to Jim Cullen's Hapolgroup predictor, I am Q-M242, which I think makes me a Q1b.
I seem to be a DNA match for the descendants of Paulus Dirkse Huff, which is
strange as my last name is Riley.
But there is a break in my line pre-1809, when my last known ancestor left home
after a huge fight with his father. I am now thinking he changed his name as
well as his address. We are from New Jersey, and there are a number of Huffs
living there in that era.
I look forward to learning more about DNA, and this whole Q business, and seeing
how I fit in.
Take care,
Kevin

----- Original Message -----

From: Kevin R

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 8:13 AM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] New Q to List

I have just joined, and thought I would introduce myself. Although I have been working on my tree for 10 years, I only had my DNA tested last fall. According to Jim Cullen's Hapolgroup predictor, I am Q-M242, which I think makes me a Q1b. I seem to be a DNA match for the descendants of Paulus Dirkse Huff, which is strange as my last name is Riley.
But there is a break in my line pre-1809, when my last known ancestor left home after a huge fight with his father. I am now thinking he changed his name as well as his address. We are from New Jersey, and there are a number of Huffs living there in that era.
I look forward to learning more about DNA, and this whole Q business, and seeing how I fit in.
Take care,
Kevin

Hello Nadene;
I don't know enough about the Huffs right now to say, but it looks
like I am a match for the Dutch branch that settled in New Jersey. My
DNA has nothing in common with any Rileys I have seen on the Internet.
Family lore says we descend from the first Riley in America, John, I
think, who arrived not much after the Pilgrims. It's not a common name
in NJ in the era I am looking at, and my previous Riley contender, a
Joseph Riley in Morris County, may have come from Pennsylvania, and
been a German of some sort.
Take care,
Kevin

Hi, I'm newcomer in Q group.

Actually, it is not my test, but my father's in law test.
I was really surprised that he is Q, because I'm G1a - rare Ashkenazi subclade
with a little suspect to Khazar ancestry and now I know that my wife's family
may be have Khazar ancestry too!

My father's in law oldest known ancestor is Zalman Chervin, who lived in Svir,
Vilno gubernia (now - part of Belarus).  His oldest son Kaufman was born in 1802
and moved wth his family in 1853 to jewish agricultural colony Nadezhnaya in
Ekaterinoslav gubernia.

I was really impressed by the work that was done in this Q group and now I have
a number of questions:

1. Do i understand correctly that except us only Hazara and Sindhis tribes was
tested positively for Q1b?
2. Are known haplotypes of Hazara and Sindhis people? Did somebody compute TMRCA
for us and them?
3. Why people think that Ashina dynasty was Q (or even Q1b)? Was somebody of
proven descendants of this dynasty tested?
4. Which facts pointed to connection between jews with Q1b, or Hungary jews to
khazars? Who are those people who carried about 1000 years memories about their
khazarian ancestry?
5. Which Q clade except Hazara or Sindhis is closest to us? What is TMRCA for us
and this clade?
6. How any theory (either Ashina clade ot Silk road) may describe absence of Q1b
in Mingolia, China, South of Russia?
7. Why our clade TMRCA (about 900 years) is taken into account in Ashina theory?
As far as I know almost every Ashkenazi clade has TMRCA between 700 to 1200
years ago just because at this time Ashkenazi population went through a
bottleneck.

Thank you!

Dear Pawel,

I have just saw Your questions at the Ashkenazi Yahoo group.

Ashina Imperial CLAN was the rulling class of the Khazarian
Empire,who converted on Judaism in 8th century.

We dont know what all haplogroups was present in the original
Ashina of Khazars genetic pool, but all puzzle of evidences
point to Q1b as pretty much likely case, as one example.

Those Q1b matches from Central Asia ,visible in Q-DNA Project and
one in the Ashina Project, clearly shows are Silk Road path from
north-west China/South Siberia to Europe.

Those matches are not so close to us, Ashkenazi, but still relat.
close , and not Jews (!), meaning that conversion took place at
some point after our ancestors branched. One remained in Central
Asia, others continued to Europe and accepted Judaism. Total
Khazar story and 1st millenium story.

We cannot state that there is absence of Q1b in Mongolia and
surrounding area. There is no supporting evidences for that
thinking.

I am sticking only to historical and historian sources, which
turns to be in great deal confirmed with DNA research. Only
conversion to Judaism mentioned in reports are those of the part
of ruling class of Khazaria. Not even all of them converted.
Recent archeological excavations confirmed that Judaism was
observed in narrow circle.

There is people ,like judge Farkas, our Q1b, who
suspected Khazar origin even before DNA test was undertaken.

Obviously, last 1200 years of living as Jews, was culturally
dominant and overwhelming for those Khazar royal converts.

I am open to all Your possible questions.


Regards,

Alfred Krupa prof.MFA

p.s.
my genetic genealogy results and conclusions have been assumed as
corredt in Bulgaria and Ukraine.Both vassal states and nations of
the Khazarian Empire.
I, personally, cannot support attitude in manner "all and
everything, even some unknown wondering tribe, just not the
Khazars".
---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
     Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
     Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
     http://shopping.tportal.hr

----- Original Message -----

From: Dave Howard

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 3:20 PM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Welcome to Our Group - M242 is Generic Q - M378 is Q1b

Kevin,

Welcome to our group.

This DNA stuff is interesting and at times quite confusing.

Please look over the list of messages and go to message 581. Click on the chart link in that message. Or,

Click Here

You will see that if you have M242 you are a generic Q. You need to have M378 to be a Q1b.

Where did you have your yDNA tested? If it was at Family Tree DNA please join our Jewish_Q group there.

If you did not test at Family Tree DNA have you entered your data at YSearch  or Ancestry.com  ?

See if you have close matches to those who have been tested to be Q1b.

As a last resort you can send your results to me privately and I will put them on my big Excel Spreadsheet and see how you fit in with the rest of us. Here is my email address: dshoward@... .

I spent a little time looking up Paulus Dirkse Huff and it looks like a very old American Family that has roots in the Netherlands. Many of the early immigrants to America came for religious freedom. The followers of the reformationists had lived in the Netherlands before they went to Scotland and England and then came to America.

I am wondering if your ancestors had the tradition of being Jewish?

So far 99% of Europeans with the M378 marker are of Jewish ancestry.

You are certainly welcome to hang around our group. However, you might want to look into your matches with tested Q1b's or have your SNPs tested. (Unless you know that Huff was Jewish.)

Kind regards,

Dave Howard






--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin R" <kevrik@...> wrote:
>
> I have just joined, and thought I would introduce myself. Although I have been working on my tree for 10 years, I only had my DNA tested last fall. According to Jim Cullen's Hapolgroup predictor, I am Q-M242, which I think makes me a Q1b. I seem to be a DNA match for the descendants of Paulus Dirkse Huff, which is strange as my last name is Riley.
> But there is a break in my line pre-1809, when my last known ancestor left home after a huge fight with his father. I am now thinking he changed his name as well as his address. We are from New Jersey, and there are a number of Huffs living there in that era.
> I look forward to learning more about DNA, and this whole Q business, and seeing how I fit in.
> Take care,
> Kevin
>

Dave,
Thanks for the reply and information. I've been in contact with
someone whose DNA is an exact match of mine (and Huff's) who
corresponded with someone quite knowledgeable about DNA, who wrote him
that, "M378 is the SNP for Q1b. This is what Jim Cullen's prediction
tool is truly matching your brother and cousin to." and also that,
"Although you are a pretty good match to the Huffs, I suspect that the
connection goes back to just before the adoption of surnames in the
1500s and early 1600s. The major values that set you apart from other
Q1bs are your DYS385a-b=13,13 results. A value of 14,16 is the norm."
This person also advised my source to check this list out, which is
why I am here.
I'll share this in private if you like; I just don't want to post
something in its entirety without permission. I'll also send you my
numbers privately. I was tested by Ancestry. I'd hope to avoid paying
for another test, but if I have to go to FTDNA, I can.
Mind you, I'm not married to the idea of being Q1b; from what I
understand about Q makes it quite odd I would even be a member of this
haplogroup, let alone a subgroup. I do have Dutch ancestors through
another line, and I studied them, so I am familiar with both old and
New Netherlands.
See http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=kevrik2
which also has all my notes.
Take care,
Kevin

Thanks for the reply, Christopher. I have researched the Dutch for
another line and found them fascinating, and I know a little bit about
their cosmopolitan ways.
They were pretty polyglot, and pretty tolerant. Someone could have
assumed or been assigned a Dutch name for any number of reasons.
I hope to learn a more and maybe even break this brick wall.
Take care,
Kevin

Thank you Dave,
let me answer to a part of your answers :)

I have worked in Jewishgen, and actually using jewishgen I received my
father in law genealogy until 1800.

Rebekah , can you help me with haplotypes? Do we actually have any Q1b
non jewish haplotype either from FTDNA or scientific paper?

Regarding Khazars haplogroup - they can not be E. E (or more specific
E1b) - is Mediterranean haplogroup.
People think that they were R1a - both because of place were they
lived, and because of R1a haplogroup of Ahkenazi Levites. This
assumption I saw in a number of scientific papers (Doron Behar and
others).

Thank you!


On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 22:58, Dave Howard <dshoward@...> wrote:
>
>
> Pavel,
>
> Welcome to our group. For a newcomer you seem to know a lot already. I am
> sure we will all enjoy and learn from your contributions. I will take a stab
> at your questions. I will highlight my answers.
>
> (Be warned. I am a retired tax lawyer. I am not a scientist. I have years of
> experience explaining complex tax strategies to befuddled corporate
> executives. Some of your excellent questions need to be addressed by real
> scientists. I will see if I can get them to step up to the table and help us
> out.)
>
> Rebekah Canada is a much more informed amature scientist who is the Group
> Administrator for the Haplogroup Q project at Family Tree DNA. Here
> contribution to our discussion group is invaluable.
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Pavel Bernshtam" <javaap@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, I'm newcomer in Q group.
>>
>> Actually, it is not my test, but my father's in law test.
>> I was really surprised that he is Q, because I'm G1a - rare Ashkenazi
>> subclade with a little suspect to Khazar ancestry and now I know that my
>> wife's family may be have Khazar ancestry too!
>
> I am not so sure anyone knows what the Khazarian Haplogroups are yet. I see
> no basis for assuming that the Khazars were the source of our M378 ((Q1b)
> marker. If they were the source we would expect to see other Europeans with
> M378 other than our group.
>>
>> My father's in law oldest known ancestor is Zalman Chervin, who lived in
>> Svir, Vilno gubernia (now - part of Belarus). His oldest son Kaufman was
>> born in 1802 and moved wth his family in 1853 to jewish agricultural colony
>> Nadezhnaya in Ekaterinoslav gubernia.
>
> Vilna Gubernia is mostly in Lithuania today. Some districts are in Belarus
> today. Have you checked in with JewishGen  ?
>>
>> I was really impressed by the work that was done in this Q group and now I
>> have a number of questions:
>>
>> 1. Do i understand correctly that except us only Hazara and Sindhis tribes
>> was tested positively for Q1b?
>
>> 2. Are known haplotypes of Hazara and Sindhis people? Did somebody compute
>> TMRCA for us and them?
>
> There is one scholarly study which found M378 SNPs among those two groups.
> The representation was under 5% in each group. You may want to read some of
> the other messages before. As far as I can tell no one has attempted to find
> TMRCA for us and these folks. Rebekah Canada might be able to help us here.
>
>> 3. Why people think that Ashina dynasty was Q (or even Q1b)? Was somebody
>> of proven descendants of this dynasty tested?
>
> I see no basis for such a conclusion. To me it is romantic wishful thinking
> with no scientific basis. If I were to bet (I never bet) I imagine that the
> Khazars were from Haplogroup E.
>
>> 4. Which facts pointed to connection between jews with Q1b, or Hungary
>> jews to khazars? Who are those people who carried about 1000 years memories
>> about their khazarian ancestry?
>
> There are lots of connections with Khazars and Jews. Clearly we have a lot
> of their DNA in our bodies, especially if we are stocky, fair skinned, red
> or sandy hair, with blue/green/hazel eyes. However, they are not the source
> of the M378 mutation in our yDNA.
>
> I hope you understand the distinction. There are 23 pairs of Chromosomes.
> The yDNA is only a small chunk of our total DNA.
>
>> 5. Which Q clade except Hazara or Sindhis is closest to us? What is TMRCA
>> for us and this clade?
>
> Rebekah Canada can help us on this. As far as I know there are only three
> groups who have the M378 marker. Hazara, Sindhi and we are those groups. By
> the way, the Sindhi is not a small wandering tribe as I had said before.
> Check out this link.
>
>> 6. How any theory (either Ashina clade ot Silk road) may describe absence
>> of Q1b in Mongolia, China, South of Russia?
>
> The fact that the M378 SNP is missing in all these other groups proves my
> point that the groups you mentioned were not the source of our yDNA. The
> only logical theory right now is the Silk Road. We need to get the real
> scientists to help us on this. I will ask for that assistance.
>
> I am presently taking a course in Historical Geography at Stanford
> University Continuing Studies and my professor is not very excited about the
> thought of any contact between the Hazara and the Ashkenazi Jewish people.
> He feels the Sindhi are a more likely source.
>
>> 7. Why our clade TMRCA (about 900 years) is taken into account in Ashina
>> theory? As far as I know almost every Ashkenazi clade has TMRCA between 700
>> to 1200 years ago just because at this time Ashkenazi population went
>> through a bottleneck.
>
> You have added some interesting information. I have not looked into the
> timing of the genetic bottlenecks among the Ashkenazim. Alas, the Ashina
> Theory has no scientific support yet. (Due to the fact that M378 is not
> found among any other European group other than us.
>
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>
>



--
Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
+972-54-5583675,javaap@...

Dear Rebekah, we can speak only about common ancestor of a clade inside a
specific haplogroup, not about common ancestor of people woth the same surname
...

--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
>
> Speaking of bottlenecks... When is the common ancestor to all of
> the Horowitz men supposed to have lived? We know that all  Horowitz around
> today cannot come from this direct paternal line --different haplogroups--
> but I think that it is the place to start.
> Rebekah
>

If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead has
long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html

Why these networks looks in this way?

Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.

Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle neck.
However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal" children,
but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.

Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
say, 1000 years ago?
It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is 2500
years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population between
2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.

And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA about
800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
haplogroup).

Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.

Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
1000 years ago.
We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.

Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they survived
and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
Mongolia!

So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every problematic :)

--
Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
+972-54-5583675,javaap@...

Pavel,

The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and many
objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you submit.
A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and this is not
without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times of war, famine and
plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have lots of surviving heirs
if you are at the top of the social ranking and you are rich. Moreover they
often have lots of servants (also woman), and this give a boost to their progeny
...

Alessandro.


--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
>
> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead has
> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
>
> Why these networks looks in this way?
>
> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
>
> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle neck.
> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal" children,
> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.
>
> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
> say, 1000 years ago?
> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is 2500
> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population between
> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
>
> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA about
> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
> haplogroup).
>
> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
>
> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
> 1000 years ago.
> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
>
> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they survived
> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
> Mongolia!
>
> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every problematic :)
>
> --
> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
>

Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.

When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?


On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
>
>
> Pavel,
>
> The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and many
> objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you submit.
> A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and this is
> not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times of war,
> famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have lots of
> surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you are
> rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and this give
> a boost to their progeny ...
>
> Alessandro.
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
>>
>> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
>> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead has
>> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
>> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
>> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
>> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
>> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
>> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
>> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
>>
>> Why these networks looks in this way?
>>
>> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
>> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
>> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
>> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
>>
>> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
>> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle neck.
>> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal" children,
>> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
>> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
>> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.
>>
>> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
>> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
>> say, 1000 years ago?
>> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
>> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is 2500
>> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population between
>> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
>>
>> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA about
>> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
>> haplogroup).
>>
>> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
>>
>> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
>> 1000 years ago.
>> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
>> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
>> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
>>
>> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
>> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they survived
>> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
>> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
>> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
>> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
>> Mongolia!
>>
>> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
>> problematic :)
>>
>> --
>> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
>>
>
>



--
Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
+972-54-5583675,javaap@...

Dear Pavel,

I don't know if the silk trade connection is the right answer to our origin.
This is what I know.
The first documented man with my surname in Sicily is a silk trader living in
the 1400's in Palermo (Nicolo' Biondo, of the Biondo family of merchants): he
was active in trading silk between Sicily and the Flanders (at that time were
both under the Spanish rule). I know that Sicily become the most important silk
worm and raw silk producer in western world after year 1100. When the old trade
routes from the east were useless (because of the producing of silk worms also
in Sicily) maybe some silk trader moved their family to follow those new trades,
and here there is the source of my Sicilian Q1b.

This is the result of my personal research, and maybe I belong to a total
different line respect other peoples in this forum, so that my rsearch is
useless to other peoples. In effect I have found no connection to Jewish roots,
not in my surname, not in that old ancestor of the XV century.
But that is all I know, mixing genetic facts about me and historical facts about
my surname.

Regards.

Alessandro.


--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.
>
> When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?
>
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Pavel,
> >
> > The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and many
> > objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you submit.
> > A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and this is
> > not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times of war,
> > famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have lots of
> > surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you are
> > rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and this give
> > a boost to their progeny ...
> >
> > Alessandro.
> >
> > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
> >>
> >> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
> >> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead has
> >> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
> >> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
> >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
> >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
> >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
> >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
> >> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
> >>
> >> Why these networks looks in this way?
> >>
> >> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
> >> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
> >> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
> >> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
> >>
> >> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
> >> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle neck.
> >> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal" children,
> >> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
> >> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
> >> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.
> >>
> >> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
> >> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
> >> say, 1000 years ago?
> >> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
> >> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is 2500
> >> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population between
> >> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
> >>
> >> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA about
> >> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
> >> haplogroup).
> >>
> >> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
> >>
> >> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
> >> 1000 years ago.
> >> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
> >> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
> >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
> >>
> >> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
> >> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they survived
> >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
> >> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
> >> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
> >> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
> >> Mongolia!
> >>
> >> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
> >> problematic :)
> >>
> >> --
> >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
>

I forgot one important thing.

Even if silk road is my (or our) source, the road in itself is only a mean to
propagate people. Where exactly Q1b was in its origin remain uncertain. Silk
Road was a very long road between Anatolia/MiddleEast to China, and in many of
these places (not China, not Mongolia) we can find some traces of haplotypes
similar to Q1b. So even if silk road was the road followed by Q1b to spread,
this don't exclude a remote origin elsewhere, long its path, maybe also in its
most westerner portions (Anatolia and MiddleEast): bottleneck and founder effect
(which act in a closed population, like the Jewish communities) could easily
explain why we are so genetically close, even if Q1b in itself is probably more
ancient.

Alessandro.


--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Alessandro Biondo" <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Pavel,
>
> I don't know if the silk trade connection is the right answer to our origin.
> This is what I know.
> The first documented man with my surname in Sicily is a silk trader living in
the 1400's in Palermo (Nicolo' Biondo, of the Biondo family of merchants): he
was active in trading silk between Sicily and the Flanders (at that time were
both under the Spanish rule). I know that Sicily become the most important silk
worm and raw silk producer in western world after year 1100. When the old trade
routes from the east were useless (because of the producing of silk worms also
in Sicily) maybe some silk trader moved their family to follow those new trades,
and here there is the source of my Sicilian Q1b.
>
> This is the result of my personal research, and maybe I belong to a total
different line respect other peoples in this forum, so that my rsearch is
useless to other peoples. In effect I have found no connection to Jewish roots,
not in my surname, not in that old ancestor of the XV century.
> But that is all I know, mixing genetic facts about me and historical facts
about my surname.
>
> Regards.
>
> Alessandro.
>
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.
> >
> > When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Pavel,
> > >
> > > The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and many
> > > objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you submit.
> > > A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and this is
> > > not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times of war,
> > > famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have lots of
> > > surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you are
> > > rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and this
give
> > > a boost to their progeny ...
> > >
> > > Alessandro.
> > >
> > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
> > >> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead has
> > >> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
> > >> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
> > >> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
> > >>
> > >> Why these networks looks in this way?
> > >>
> > >> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
> > >> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
> > >> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
> > >> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
> > >>
> > >> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
> > >> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle neck.
> > >> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal" children,
> > >> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
> > >> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
> > >> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.
> > >>
> > >> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
> > >> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
> > >> say, 1000 years ago?
> > >> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
> > >> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is 2500
> > >> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population between
> > >> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
> > >>
> > >> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA about
> > >> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
> > >> haplogroup).
> > >>
> > >> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
> > >>
> > >> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
> > >> 1000 years ago.
> > >> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
> > >> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
> > >>
> > >> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
> > >> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they survived
> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
> > >> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
> > >> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
> > >> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
> > >> Mongolia!
> > >>
> > >> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
> > >> problematic :)
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> > >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> > +972-54-5583675,javaap@
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Alessandro Biondo

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:55 AM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Population bottlenecks and Q1b origins

Dear Pavel,

I don't know if the silk trade connection is the right answer to our origin.
This is what I know.
The first documented man with my surname in Sicily is a silk trader living in the 1400's in Palermo (Nicolo' Biondo, of the Biondo family of merchants): he was active in trading silk between Sicily and the Flanders (at that time were both under the Spanish rule). I know that Sicily become the most important silk worm and raw silk producer in western world after year 1100. When the old trade routes from the east were useless (because of the producing of silk worms also in Sicily) maybe some silk trader moved their family to follow those new trades, and here there is the source of my Sicilian Q1b.

This is the result of my personal research, and maybe I belong to a total different line respect other peoples in this forum, so that my rsearch is useless to other peoples. In effect I have found no connection to Jewish roots, not in my surname, not in that old ancestor of the XV century.
But that is all I know, mixing genetic facts about me and historical facts about my surname.

Regards.

Alessandro.

--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.
>
> When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?
>
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Pavel,
> >
> > The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and many
> > objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you submit.
> > A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and this is
> > not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times of war,
> > famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have lots of
> > surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you are
> > rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and this give
> > a boost to their progeny ...
> >
> > Alessandro.
> >
> > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
> >>
> >> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
> >> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead has
> >> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
> >> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
> >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
> >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
> >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
> >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
> >> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
> >>
> >> Why these networks looks in this way?
> >>
> >> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
> >> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
> >> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
> >> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
> >>
> >> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
> >> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle neck.
> >> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal" children,
> >> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
> >> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
> >> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.
> >>
> >> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
> >> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
> >> say, 1000 years ago?
> >> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
> >> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is 2500
> >> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population between
> >> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
> >>
> >> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA about
> >> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
> >> haplogroup).
> >>
> >> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
> >>
> >> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
> >> 1000 years ago.
> >> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
> >> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
> >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
> >>
> >> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
> >> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they survived
> >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
> >> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
> >> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
> >> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
> >> Mongolia!
> >>
> >> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
> >> problematic :)
> >>
> >> --
> >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
>

Hi Nadene and all,

unfortunately I have no paper supporting a sure connection between me and the
Biondo merchants, because this is a historical fact going too far back in time
to have such a paper. Simply it is a straightforward link because of the same
surname (be assured this is an uncommon surname in Sicily, and its meaning is:
with fair hairs), in the same little island (Sicily is not as large as
Australia).

Let me add a little opinion about our TMRCA and our common ancestor. We know
from two different scientific paper published in 2008, one about Lebanon (author
Zalloua) and one other about Druze (author Shlush), that also among Druze there
is a "suspect" of presence of Q1b. This is very interesting because the Druze
"would no longer accept new pledges in 1043, and since that time conversion has
been prohibited" (citation from Wikipedia). So we know that Q1b, or ySTRs values
compatibles with our ySTRs values, are living in the Middle East area, among a
persecuted and closed religious group (sounds familiar?), since before 1043. In
the same papers other "suspect" Q1b are found in Syria. So we know that it is
likely that our common ancestor lived before year 1043, and that in that years
he, or some of his heirs, were living in the Middle East.

Now, I hope you and other people here could accept a little provocation. I think
that, because we do figure our common ancestor living 1000 years ago, we are too
concentrated about the historical facts of that time, facts acting at a macro
level. But maybe we are not the results of a macro-historical event, but of more
limited, familiar or even personal events.
Here is my provocation to the entire group. What do you think if Q1b lived in
the Middle East since ancient times? Simply just one among the many lines of Q1b
survived (passing the bottlenecks) and that line, with its peculiar ySTRs, it is
a line that more likely could be originate in a rich family (merchant or not)?
Please, accept this only as a provocation, I am not trying to sell this "theory"
to other people, and this theory don't represent in any way my certainty, but
only my suspects. Simply I think this is a more simple, direct, straightforward
way to explain why I and all the other people here, are they Jews or not, are
they living in Europe, or in the Middle East or in Turkey, have our Q1b.

Regards.

Alessandro.



--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Alessandro,
> Don't give up on finding a Jewish connection yet.  I read that the descendants
of the Jewish royal family fled to their coreligionists in Spain in the year
1016.
> By the 1000's to 1200's, Khazaria collapsed as a nation, so the Ashina Royal
Dynasty must have fled to relatives.
> In 1492 Columbus, an Italian,  went from Spain with his 3 new ships to find
the new world, and that was a period of the Spanish Inquisition.  He wrote
letters to his son in Hebrew.  Some think he may have been Jewish.  We don't
know.  However, the 1400's were a hard time for Jews and many were given the
choice of converting or leaving in ships that could never get anywhere.  It was
a dangerous journey.  This was world-wide.  The Inquisition followed Jews to
Mexico later.  There were Jews in Italy before the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD
brought there as slaves.  Ghettos were first started in Italy and that is an
Italian name.  By 1400, some no doubt were still there.
> Many Jews had become merchants.  It's interesting that Nicolo Biondo was from
a family of merchants.  It would be fantastic if you could trace who his
ancestors were.  I think you're a great researcher already to be able to go so
far back in your genealogy searching.  Not many of us can go back that far.
> All the best,
> Nadene Goldfoot
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Alessandro Biondo
>   To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:55 AM
>   Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Population bottlenecks and Q1b origins
>
>
>
>
>
>   Dear Pavel,
>
>   I don't know if the silk trade connection is the right answer to our origin.
>   This is what I know.
>   The first documented man with my surname in Sicily is a silk trader living
in the 1400's in Palermo (Nicolo' Biondo, of the Biondo family of merchants): he
was active in trading silk between Sicily and the Flanders (at that time were
both under the Spanish rule). I know that Sicily become the most important silk
worm and raw silk producer in western world after year 1100. When the old trade
routes from the east were useless (because of the producing of silk worms also
in Sicily) maybe some silk trader moved their family to follow those new trades,
and here there is the source of my Sicilian Q1b.
>
>   This is the result of my personal research, and maybe I belong to a total
different line respect other peoples in this forum, so that my rsearch is
useless to other peoples. In effect I have found no connection to Jewish roots,
not in my surname, not in that old ancestor of the XV century.
>   But that is all I know, mixing genetic facts about me and historical facts
about my surname.
>
>   Regards.
>
>   Alessandro.
>
>   --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.
>   >
>   > When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?
>   >
>   >
>   > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@> wrote:
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Pavel,
>   > >
>   > > The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and many
>   > > objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you
submit.
>   > > A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and this
is
>   > > not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times of
war,
>   > > famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have lots
of
>   > > surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you are
>   > > rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and this
give
>   > > a boost to their progeny ...
>   > >
>   > > Alessandro.
>   > >
>   > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
>   > >>
>   > >> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
>   > >> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead has
>   > >> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
>   > >> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
>   > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
>   > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
>   > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
>   > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
>   > >> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
>   > >>
>   > >> Why these networks looks in this way?
>   > >>
>   > >> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
>   > >> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
>   > >> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
>   > >> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
>   > >>
>   > >> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
>   > >> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle neck.
>   > >> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal" children,
>   > >> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
>   > >> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
>   > >> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.
>   > >>
>   > >> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
>   > >> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
>   > >> say, 1000 years ago?
>   > >> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
>   > >> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is 2500
>   > >> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population between
>   > >> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
>   > >>
>   > >> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA about
>   > >> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
>   > >> haplogroup).
>   > >>
>   > >> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
>   > >>
>   > >> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
>   > >> 1000 years ago.
>   > >> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
>   > >> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
>   > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
>   > >>
>   > >> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
>   > >> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they survived
>   > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
>   > >> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
>   > >> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
>   > >> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
>   > >> Mongolia!
>   > >>
>   > >> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
>   > >> problematic :)
>   > >>
>   > >> --
>   > >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>   > >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
>   > >>
>   > >
>   > >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > --
>   > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>   > +972-54-5583675,javaap@
>   >
>

Dear Alessandro,
can you point me to the papers of Q1b suspect on the Middle East?
What is "suspect"?

People either were tested to the M378 SNP or not !

Regarding your theory about micro personal events instead of macro event.

I see a chance for it.

Take a look - if Q1b lived in Middle East in ancient time, and these
people had ancestors and ancestors of these ancestors survived until
now - we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4 thousands
years.

We do not see it.

So either there was a macro historical event of Q1b intrusion to
Europe, or only one line of these ancient Q1b's survived until now.

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 21:54, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Nadene and all,
>
> unfortunately I have no paper supporting a sure connection between me and
> the Biondo merchants, because this is a historical fact going too far back
> in time to have such a paper. Simply it is a straightforward link because of
> the same surname (be assured this is an uncommon surname in Sicily, and its
> meaning is: with fair hairs), in the same little island (Sicily is not as
> large as Australia).
>
> Let me add a little opinion about our TMRCA and our common ancestor. We know
> from two different scientific paper published in 2008, one about Lebanon
> (author Zalloua) and one other about Druze (author Shlush), that also among
> Druze there is a "suspect" of presence of Q1b. This is very interesting
> because the Druze "would no longer accept new pledges in 1043, and since
> that time conversion has been prohibited" (citation from Wikipedia). So we
> know that Q1b, or ySTRs values compatibles with our ySTRs values, are living
> in the Middle East area, among a persecuted and closed religious group
> (sounds familiar?), since before 1043. In the same papers other "suspect"
> Q1b are found in Syria. So we know that it is likely that our common
> ancestor lived before year 1043, and that in that years he, or some of his
> heirs, were living in the Middle East.
>
> Now, I hope you and other people here could accept a little provocation. I
> think that, because we do figure our common ancestor living 1000 years ago,
> we are too concentrated about the historical facts of that time, facts
> acting at a macro level. But maybe we are not the results of a
> macro-historical event, but of more limited, familiar or even personal
> events.
> Here is my provocation to the entire group. What do you think if Q1b lived
> in the Middle East since ancient times? Simply just one among the many lines
> of Q1b survived (passing the bottlenecks) and that line, with its peculiar
> ySTRs, it is a line that more likely could be originate in a rich family
> (merchant or not)? Please, accept this only as a provocation, I am not
> trying to sell this "theory" to other people, and this theory don't
> represent in any way my certainty, but only my suspects. Simply I think this
> is a more simple, direct, straightforward way to explain why I and all the
> other people here, are they Jews or not, are they living in Europe, or in
> the Middle East or in Turkey, have our Q1b.
>
> Regards.
>
> Alessandro.
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Alessandro,
>> Don't give up on finding a Jewish connection yet. I read that the
>> descendants of the Jewish royal family fled to their coreligionists in Spain
>> in the year 1016.
>> By the 1000's to 1200's, Khazaria collapsed as a nation, so the Ashina
>> Royal Dynasty must have fled to relatives.
>> In 1492 Columbus, an Italian, went from Spain with his 3 new ships to find
>> the new world, and that was a period of the Spanish Inquisition. He wrote
>> letters to his son in Hebrew. Some think he may have been Jewish. We don't
>> know. However, the 1400's were a hard time for Jews and many were given the
>> choice of converting or leaving in ships that could never get anywhere. It
>> was a dangerous journey. This was world-wide. The Inquisition followed Jews
>> to Mexico later. There were Jews in Italy before the fall of Jerusalem in
>> 70AD brought there as slaves. Ghettos were first started in Italy and that
>> is an Italian name. By 1400, some no doubt were still there.
>> Many Jews had become merchants. It's interesting that Nicolo Biondo was
>> from a family of merchants. It would be fantastic if you could trace who his
>> ancestors were. I think you're a great researcher already to be able to go
>> so far back in your genealogy searching. Not many of us can go back that
>> far.
>> All the best,
>> Nadene Goldfoot
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Alessandro Biondo
>> To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:55 AM
>> Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Population bottlenecks and Q1b origins
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Pavel,
>>
>> I don't know if the silk trade connection is the right answer to our
>> origin.
>> This is what I know.
>> The first documented man with my surname in Sicily is a silk trader living
>> in the 1400's in Palermo (Nicolo' Biondo, of the Biondo family of
>> merchants): he was active in trading silk between Sicily and the Flanders
>> (at that time were both under the Spanish rule). I know that Sicily become
>> the most important silk worm and raw silk producer in western world after
>> year 1100. When the old trade routes from the east were useless (because of
>> the producing of silk worms also in Sicily) maybe some silk trader moved
>> their family to follow those new trades, and here there is the source of my
>> Sicilian Q1b.
>>
>> This is the result of my personal research, and maybe I belong to a total
>> different line respect other peoples in this forum, so that my rsearch is
>> useless to other peoples. In effect I have found no connection to Jewish
>> roots, not in my surname, not in that old ancestor of the XV century.
>> But that is all I know, mixing genetic facts about me and historical facts
>> about my surname.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> Alessandro.
>>
>> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.
>> >
>> > When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Pavel,
>> > >
>> > > The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and many
>> > > objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you
>> > > submit.
>> > > A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and
>> > > this is
>> > > not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times of
>> > > war,
>> > > famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have lots
>> > > of
>> > > surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you
>> > > are
>> > > rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and this
>> > > give
>> > > a boost to their progeny ...
>> > >
>> > > Alessandro.
>> > >
>> > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
>> > >> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead
>> > >> has
>> > >> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
>> > >> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
>> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
>> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
>> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
>> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
>> > >> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
>> > >>
>> > >> Why these networks looks in this way?
>> > >>
>> > >> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
>> > >> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
>> > >> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
>> > >> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
>> > >>
>> > >> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
>> > >> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle
>> > >> neck.
>> > >> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal"
>> > >> children,
>> > >> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
>> > >> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
>> > >> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.
>> > >>
>> > >> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
>> > >> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
>> > >> say, 1000 years ago?
>> > >> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
>> > >> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is
>> > >> 2500
>> > >> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population
>> > >> between
>> > >> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
>> > >>
>> > >> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA
>> > >> about
>> > >> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
>> > >> haplogroup).
>> > >>
>> > >> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
>> > >>
>> > >> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
>> > >> 1000 years ago.
>> > >> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
>> > >> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
>> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
>> > >>
>> > >> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
>> > >> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they
>> > >> survived
>> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
>> > >> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
>> > >> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
>> > >> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
>> > >> Mongolia!
>> > >>
>> > >> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
>> > >> problematic :)
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>> > >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>> > +972-54-5583675,javaap@
>> >
>>
>
>



--
Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
+972-54-5583675,javaap@...

I computed a Time to the Most Recent Ancestor for Q1b in the Q FTDNA
project and received about 1500 years.
I have used mutation rates 0.090 mutations in a generation for 37
marker haplotypes and 0.145 mutations for 67 markers haplotypes.

Then I created a phylogenetic tree for the Q  37 markers haplotypes
(using 'neighbor' tool from 'Phylip' package).
On the diagram we see that a number of people, who was not tested as
Q1b are likely Q1b and I included them into the computation of TMRCA.

Then I received TMRCA about 1600-1700 years.

Of course it is very approximately estimations because I use the same
mutation speed of the all markers in TMRCA computation. And these
mutation speed of markers is a subject of hot discussions in a
scientific community.

We see at the diagram, that a number of Q1b haplotypes are grouped
separately - these are close related jewish haplotypes and others are
creating a weakly related bush. Interestingly that this bush contains
europian, jewish and even Iraqi haplotypes! [ see attached file
q-37.jpg]

After playing with 'Network' tool I created another diagramm, which
used different mutation speed for the different markers (data provided
by Ray Banks from G haplogroup project).
Here we see that on 67 markers some jewish haplotypes, which were on
separate branch earlier remains in the jewish clade - just are a
little different. (Krupp and Minkowsky)

[ see attached file q-67-network.jpg and q-67-2.jpg - zoomed in]

For the jewish subclade we receive TMRCA between 800 to 1000 years.
Here I want to repeat my idea - that we do not know - either Q1b
entered jewish people at this point of time or it entered earlier, but
1000 years before they passed a bottleneck.

We see also that non-jewish Q1b haplotypes mostly are not related to
converted jews - they are on a separate branches - such like Johannes
Bosiger and Jacob Jaggi. The diagramm shows that may be Antoine
Magalhaes, Litke, Bionde own haplotypes derived from the jewish clade,
but it may be wrong conclusion - we just do not have enough haplotypes
similar to those. My feeling is that they also are not related to jews
at all.

Our most distant Q1b relatives are Antoine Magalhaes, Bennet and
Francis Miller. If we remove them, TMRCA decreases to about 1300
years.

So we assume, that Q1b arrived to Europe about 1700 years before
(again - my computations are very approximate). May be it arrived once
- as a family or a separate person. Otherwise we need assume that it
arrived a number of times in 400-500 years, but everytime there were
related people (with TMRCA 300-400 years)


Can somebody point me - which contacts with Q areas existed about 300
B.C.-600 B.C?
I know about Huns invasion. May be they carried a number of Q
subgroups - Q1b, Q1a3 (which received Vikings and then Scotlands) and
Q1a2 of Hungarians?

What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
from East?
Do not know.

And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
value.


--
Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
+972-54-5583675,javaap@...


(diagrams are attached)

Dear Pavel,

> can you point me to the papers of Q1b suspect on the Middle East?
> What is "suspect"?
The "suspect" is not a suspect from the author, simply they are tested as Q and
they have the same ySTRs of the Q1b. For this reason I think (maybe I used a
wrong expression, I suspect) they are Q1b, based on those two precise facts:
they are Q and they have ySTRs value that are saying "we are Q1b". It is the
same situation of many people here, tested by FTDNA and not tested for M378: we
know they are Q1b, even if they are not tested for M378.

> People either were tested to the M378 SNP or not !
Yes, but in scientific papers, if you exclude the paper from Sengupta (the first
discovery of M378) you never will find even one sample tested for M378. I am
saying Never. Because this is the rule, you can only search for people that are
tested for Q or Q1, AND, at same time, have the typical ySTRs values of a Q1b.
This is the same method applied to many people here, tested for Q or Q1 and with
the right ySTRs value to predict the as Q1b. This is what I did for the samples
in the two papers I cited (and in many others)

> Take a look - if Q1b lived in Middle East in ancient time, and these
> people had ancestors and ancestors of these ancestors survived until
> now - we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4 thousands
> years.
>
> We do not see it.
>
> So either there was a macro historical event of Q1b intrusion to
> Europe, or only one line of these ancient Q1b's survived until now.
>

This point is true even in the case of an historical event: even in this case as
you point, <we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4 thousands. We
do not see it >. Where do you think they are? In what part of the world? In what
ancestral population? The bottleneck is exactly what you explain: the extinction
of some of the lines and the surviving of only some of the previous lines, and
this is true in both the situations we are discussing, macro or micro events. We
don't see other lines because they don't passed the bottleneck or maybe simply
because we don't have enough different (different at a  ySTRs level) Q1b tested,
from different populations. And probably we experienced many bottlenecks in our
history of Q1b, and this is the reason why some of us form distinct, more
homogeneous groups (they have also other, more recent common ancestor, common
only to that group not to other people): the problem here is not the lack of
different living haplotypes, but the lack of many SNPs, because during
bottlenecks SNPs tends to accumulate (but again we are a poorly tested group and
our SNPs are not well known).  Moreover the founder effect can easily explain
the relatively high frequency of a Q1b in a closed population as the Jewish
communities were.

PS. When I was writing this response, on the group web site is arrived your
other post. You did a great work for us. Sincerely: thank you so much.

Regards.

Alessandro.



--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Alessandro,
> can you point me to the papers of Q1b suspect on the Middle East?
> What is "suspect"?
>
> People either were tested to the M378 SNP or not !
>
> Regarding your theory about micro personal events instead of macro event.
>
> I see a chance for it.
>
> Take a look - if Q1b lived in Middle East in ancient time, and these
> people had ancestors and ancestors of these ancestors survived until
> now - we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4 thousands
> years.
>
> We do not see it.
>
> So either there was a macro historical event of Q1b intrusion to
> Europe, or only one line of these ancient Q1b's survived until now.
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 21:54, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Nadene and all,
> >
> > unfortunately I have no paper supporting a sure connection between me and
> > the Biondo merchants, because this is a historical fact going too far back
> > in time to have such a paper. Simply it is a straightforward link because of
> > the same surname (be assured this is an uncommon surname in Sicily, and its
> > meaning is: with fair hairs), in the same little island (Sicily is not as
> > large as Australia).
> >
> > Let me add a little opinion about our TMRCA and our common ancestor. We know
> > from two different scientific paper published in 2008, one about Lebanon
> > (author Zalloua) and one other about Druze (author Shlush), that also among
> > Druze there is a "suspect" of presence of Q1b. This is very interesting
> > because the Druze "would no longer accept new pledges in 1043, and since
> > that time conversion has been prohibited" (citation from Wikipedia). So we
> > know that Q1b, or ySTRs values compatibles with our ySTRs values, are living
> > in the Middle East area, among a persecuted and closed religious group
> > (sounds familiar?), since before 1043. In the same papers other "suspect"
> > Q1b are found in Syria. So we know that it is likely that our common
> > ancestor lived before year 1043, and that in that years he, or some of his
> > heirs, were living in the Middle East.
> >
> > Now, I hope you and other people here could accept a little provocation. I
> > think that, because we do figure our common ancestor living 1000 years ago,
> > we are too concentrated about the historical facts of that time, facts
> > acting at a macro level. But maybe we are not the results of a
> > macro-historical event, but of more limited, familiar or even personal
> > events.
> > Here is my provocation to the entire group. What do you think if Q1b lived
> > in the Middle East since ancient times? Simply just one among the many lines
> > of Q1b survived (passing the bottlenecks) and that line, with its peculiar
> > ySTRs, it is a line that more likely could be originate in a rich family
> > (merchant or not)? Please, accept this only as a provocation, I am not
> > trying to sell this "theory" to other people, and this theory don't
> > represent in any way my certainty, but only my suspects. Simply I think this
> > is a more simple, direct, straightforward way to explain why I and all the
> > other people here, are they Jews or not, are they living in Europe, or in
> > the Middle East or in Turkey, have our Q1b.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > Alessandro.
> >
> > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Alessandro,
> >> Don't give up on finding a Jewish connection yet. I read that the
> >> descendants of the Jewish royal family fled to their coreligionists in
Spain
> >> in the year 1016.
> >> By the 1000's to 1200's, Khazaria collapsed as a nation, so the Ashina
> >> Royal Dynasty must have fled to relatives.
> >> In 1492 Columbus, an Italian, went from Spain with his 3 new ships to find
> >> the new world, and that was a period of the Spanish Inquisition. He wrote
> >> letters to his son in Hebrew. Some think he may have been Jewish. We don't
> >> know. However, the 1400's were a hard time for Jews and many were given the
> >> choice of converting or leaving in ships that could never get anywhere. It
> >> was a dangerous journey. This was world-wide. The Inquisition followed Jews
> >> to Mexico later. There were Jews in Italy before the fall of Jerusalem in
> >> 70AD brought there as slaves. Ghettos were first started in Italy and that
> >> is an Italian name. By 1400, some no doubt were still there.
> >> Many Jews had become merchants. It's interesting that Nicolo Biondo was
> >> from a family of merchants. It would be fantastic if you could trace who
his
> >> ancestors were. I think you're a great researcher already to be able to go
> >> so far back in your genealogy searching. Not many of us can go back that
> >> far.
> >> All the best,
> >> Nadene Goldfoot
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Alessandro Biondo
> >> To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
> >> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:55 AM
> >> Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Population bottlenecks and Q1b origins
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Pavel,
> >>
> >> I don't know if the silk trade connection is the right answer to our
> >> origin.
> >> This is what I know.
> >> The first documented man with my surname in Sicily is a silk trader living
> >> in the 1400's in Palermo (Nicolo' Biondo, of the Biondo family of
> >> merchants): he was active in trading silk between Sicily and the Flanders
> >> (at that time were both under the Spanish rule). I know that Sicily become
> >> the most important silk worm and raw silk producer in western world after
> >> year 1100. When the old trade routes from the east were useless (because of
> >> the producing of silk worms also in Sicily) maybe some silk trader moved
> >> their family to follow those new trades, and here there is the source of my
> >> Sicilian Q1b.
> >>
> >> This is the result of my personal research, and maybe I belong to a total
> >> different line respect other peoples in this forum, so that my rsearch is
> >> useless to other peoples. In effect I have found no connection to Jewish
> >> roots, not in my surname, not in that old ancestor of the XV century.
> >> But that is all I know, mixing genetic facts about me and historical facts
> >> about my surname.
> >>
> >> Regards.
> >>
> >> Alessandro.
> >>
> >> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.
> >> >
> >> > When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Pavel,
> >> > >
> >> > > The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and many
> >> > > objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you
> >> > > submit.
> >> > > A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and
> >> > > this is
> >> > > not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times of
> >> > > war,
> >> > > famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have lots
> >> > > of
> >> > > surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you
> >> > > are
> >> > > rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and this
> >> > > give
> >> > > a boost to their progeny ...
> >> > >
> >> > > Alessandro.
> >> > >
> >> > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
> >> > >> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead
> >> > >> has
> >> > >> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
> >> > >> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
> >> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
> >> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
> >> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
> >> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
> >> > >> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Why these networks looks in this way?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
> >> > >> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
> >> > >> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
> >> > >> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
> >> > >> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle
> >> > >> neck.
> >> > >> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal"
> >> > >> children,
> >> > >> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
> >> > >> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
> >> > >> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
> >> > >> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
> >> > >> say, 1000 years ago?
> >> > >> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
> >> > >> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is
> >> > >> 2500
> >> > >> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population
> >> > >> between
> >> > >> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA
> >> > >> about
> >> > >> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
> >> > >> haplogroup).
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
> >> > >> 1000 years ago.
> >> > >> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
> >> > >> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
> >> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
> >> > >> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they
> >> > >> survived
> >> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
> >> > >> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
> >> > >> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
> >> > >> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
> >> > >> Mongolia!
> >> > >>
> >> > >> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
> >> > >> problematic :)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> --
> >> > >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> >> > >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> >> > +972-54-5583675,javaap@
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
>

Dear, Alessandro, i failed to find scientific papers with Q haplotypes.
Can you send me a link?

We can try to add these haplotypes to the tree and compute TMRCA.

But, as far, as I know, haplotypes in scientific papers are very short :(


Regarding ancient Q1b in th eMiddle East _ I looked to Sephardic DNA project.
Theoretically (!) if ancient jews owned Q1b, we should find Q1b in
Sephardic population too.

However there are too smal amount of sephards were tested. We have
only 4 haplotypes here, and only one was confirmed as Q1b.

Alfred also will say that Khazars arrived to Spain and it is the
reason to see Q1b in Sephardic haplotypes. ;)


On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 23:20, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Pavel,
>
>> can you point me to the papers of Q1b suspect on the Middle East?
>> What is "suspect"?
> The "suspect" is not a suspect from the author, simply they are tested as Q
> and they have the same ySTRs of the Q1b. For this reason I think (maybe I
> used a wrong expression, I suspect) they are Q1b, based on those two precise
> facts: they are Q and they have ySTRs value that are saying "we are Q1b". It
> is the same situation of many people here, tested by FTDNA and not tested
> for M378: we know they are Q1b, even if they are not tested for M378.
>
>> People either were tested to the M378 SNP or not !
> Yes, but in scientific papers, if you exclude the paper from Sengupta (the
> first discovery of M378) you never will find even one sample tested for
> M378. I am saying Never. Because this is the rule, you can only search for
> people that are tested for Q or Q1, AND, at same time, have the typical
> ySTRs values of a Q1b. This is the same method applied to many people here,
> tested for Q or Q1 and with the right ySTRs value to predict the as Q1b.
> This is what I did for the samples in the two papers I cited (and in many
> others)
>
>> Take a look - if Q1b lived in Middle East in ancient time, and these
>> people had ancestors and ancestors of these ancestors survived until
>> now - we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4 thousands
>> years.
>>
>> We do not see it.
>>
>> So either there was a macro historical event of Q1b intrusion to
>> Europe, or only one line of these ancient Q1b's survived until now.
>>
>
> This point is true even in the case of an historical event: even in this
> case as you point, <we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4
> thousands. We do not see it >. Where do you think they are? In what part of
> the world? In what ancestral population? The bottleneck is exactly what you
> explain: the extinction of some of the lines and the surviving of only some
> of the previous lines, and this is true in both the situations we are
> discussing, macro or micro events. We don't see other lines because they
> don't passed the bottleneck or maybe simply because we don't have enough
> different (different at a ySTRs level) Q1b tested, from different
> populations. And probably we experienced many bottlenecks in our history of
> Q1b, and this is the reason why some of us form distinct, more homogeneous
> groups (they have also other, more recent common ancestor, common only to
> that group not to other people): the problem here is not the lack of
> different living haplotypes, but the lack of many SNPs, because during
> bottlenecks SNPs tends to accumulate (but again we are a poorly tested group
> and our SNPs are not well known). Moreover the founder effect can easily
> explain the relatively high frequency of a Q1b in a closed population as the
> Jewish communities were.
>
> PS. When I was writing this response, on the group web site is arrived your
> other post. You did a great work for us. Sincerely: thank you so much.
>
> Regards.
>
> Alessandro.
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Alessandro,
>> can you point me to the papers of Q1b suspect on the Middle East?
>> What is "suspect"?
>>
>> People either were tested to the M378 SNP or not !
>>
>> Regarding your theory about micro personal events instead of macro event.
>>
>> I see a chance for it.
>>
>> Take a look - if Q1b lived in Middle East in ancient time, and these
>> people had ancestors and ancestors of these ancestors survived until
>> now - we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4 thousands
>> years.
>>
>> We do not see it.
>>
>> So either there was a macro historical event of Q1b intrusion to
>> Europe, or only one line of these ancient Q1b's survived until now.
>>
>> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 21:54, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Nadene and all,
>> >
>> > unfortunately I have no paper supporting a sure connection between me
>> > and
>> > the Biondo merchants, because this is a historical fact going too far
>> > back
>> > in time to have such a paper. Simply it is a straightforward link
>> > because of
>> > the same surname (be assured this is an uncommon surname in Sicily, and
>> > its
>> > meaning is: with fair hairs), in the same little island (Sicily is not
>> > as
>> > large as Australia).
>> >
>> > Let me add a little opinion about our TMRCA and our common ancestor. We
>> > know
>> > from two different scientific paper published in 2008, one about Lebanon
>> > (author Zalloua) and one other about Druze (author Shlush), that also
>> > among
>> > Druze there is a "suspect" of presence of Q1b. This is very interesting
>> > because the Druze "would no longer accept new pledges in 1043, and since
>> > that time conversion has been prohibited" (citation from Wikipedia). So
>> > we
>> > know that Q1b, or ySTRs values compatibles with our ySTRs values, are
>> > living
>> > in the Middle East area, among a persecuted and closed religious group
>> > (sounds familiar?), since before 1043. In the same papers other
>> > "suspect"
>> > Q1b are found in Syria. So we know that it is likely that our common
>> > ancestor lived before year 1043, and that in that years he, or some of
>> > his
>> > heirs, were living in the Middle East.
>> >
>> > Now, I hope you and other people here could accept a little provocation.
>> > I
>> > think that, because we do figure our common ancestor living 1000 years
>> > ago,
>> > we are too concentrated about the historical facts of that time, facts
>> > acting at a macro level. But maybe we are not the results of a
>> > macro-historical event, but of more limited, familiar or even personal
>> > events.
>> > Here is my provocation to the entire group. What do you think if Q1b
>> > lived
>> > in the Middle East since ancient times? Simply just one among the many
>> > lines
>> > of Q1b survived (passing the bottlenecks) and that line, with its
>> > peculiar
>> > ySTRs, it is a line that more likely could be originate in a rich family
>> > (merchant or not)? Please, accept this only as a provocation, I am not
>> > trying to sell this "theory" to other people, and this theory don't
>> > represent in any way my certainty, but only my suspects. Simply I think
>> > this
>> > is a more simple, direct, straightforward way to explain why I and all
>> > the
>> > other people here, are they Jews or not, are they living in Europe, or
>> > in
>> > the Middle East or in Turkey, have our Q1b.
>> >
>> > Regards.
>> >
>> > Alessandro.
>> >
>> > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Alessandro,
>> >> Don't give up on finding a Jewish connection yet. I read that the
>> >> descendants of the Jewish royal family fled to their coreligionists in
>> >> Spain
>> >> in the year 1016.
>> >> By the 1000's to 1200's, Khazaria collapsed as a nation, so the Ashina
>> >> Royal Dynasty must have fled to relatives.
>> >> In 1492 Columbus, an Italian, went from Spain with his 3 new ships to
>> >> find
>> >> the new world, and that was a period of the Spanish Inquisition. He
>> >> wrote
>> >> letters to his son in Hebrew. Some think he may have been Jewish. We
>> >> don't
>> >> know. However, the 1400's were a hard time for Jews and many were given
>> >> the
>> >> choice of converting or leaving in ships that could never get anywhere.
>> >> It
>> >> was a dangerous journey. This was world-wide. The Inquisition followed
>> >> Jews
>> >> to Mexico later. There were Jews in Italy before the fall of Jerusalem
>> >> in
>> >> 70AD brought there as slaves. Ghettos were first started in Italy and
>> >> that
>> >> is an Italian name. By 1400, some no doubt were still there.
>> >> Many Jews had become merchants. It's interesting that Nicolo Biondo was
>> >> from a family of merchants. It would be fantastic if you could trace
>> >> who his
>> >> ancestors were. I think you're a great researcher already to be able to
>> >> go
>> >> so far back in your genealogy searching. Not many of us can go back
>> >> that
>> >> far.
>> >> All the best,
>> >> Nadene Goldfoot
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: Alessandro Biondo
>> >> To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>> >> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:55 AM
>> >> Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Population bottlenecks and Q1b origins
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dear Pavel,
>> >>
>> >> I don't know if the silk trade connection is the right answer to our
>> >> origin.
>> >> This is what I know.
>> >> The first documented man with my surname in Sicily is a silk trader
>> >> living
>> >> in the 1400's in Palermo (Nicolo' Biondo, of the Biondo family of
>> >> merchants): he was active in trading silk between Sicily and the
>> >> Flanders
>> >> (at that time were both under the Spanish rule). I know that Sicily
>> >> become
>> >> the most important silk worm and raw silk producer in western world
>> >> after
>> >> year 1100. When the old trade routes from the east were useless
>> >> (because of
>> >> the producing of silk worms also in Sicily) maybe some silk trader
>> >> moved
>> >> their family to follow those new trades, and here there is the source
>> >> of my
>> >> Sicilian Q1b.
>> >>
>> >> This is the result of my personal research, and maybe I belong to a
>> >> total
>> >> different line respect other peoples in this forum, so that my rsearch
>> >> is
>> >> useless to other peoples. In effect I have found no connection to
>> >> Jewish
>> >> roots, not in my surname, not in that old ancestor of the XV century.
>> >> But that is all I know, mixing genetic facts about me and historical
>> >> facts
>> >> about my surname.
>> >>
>> >> Regards.
>> >>
>> >> Alessandro.
>> >>
>> >> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.
>> >> >
>> >> > When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Pavel,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and
>> >> > > many
>> >> > > objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you
>> >> > > submit.
>> >> > > A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and
>> >> > > this is
>> >> > > not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times
>> >> > > of
>> >> > > war,
>> >> > > famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have
>> >> > > lots
>> >> > > of
>> >> > > surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you
>> >> > > are
>> >> > > rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and
>> >> > > this
>> >> > > give
>> >> > > a boost to their progeny ...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Alessandro.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@>
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you
>> >> > >> will
>> >> > >> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead
>> >> > >> has
>> >> > >> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
>> >> > >> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
>> >> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
>> >> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
>> >> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
>> >> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
>> >> > >> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Why these networks looks in this way?
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
>> >> > >> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
>> >> > >> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
>> >> > >> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is
>> >> > >> a
>> >> > >> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle
>> >> > >> neck.
>> >> > >> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal"
>> >> > >> children,
>> >> > >> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in
>> >> > >> surrounding
>> >> > >> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his
>> >> > >> descendants,
>> >> > >> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or
>> >> > >> plague.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor
>> >> > >> (TMRCA).
>> >> > >> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
>> >> > >> say, 1000 years ago?
>> >> > >> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
>> >> > >> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is
>> >> > >> 2500
>> >> > >> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population
>> >> > >> between
>> >> > >> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA
>> >> > >> about
>> >> > >> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my
>> >> > >> own
>> >> > >> haplogroup).
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish
>> >> > >> woman
>> >> > >> 1000 years ago.
>> >> > >> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
>> >> > >> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population
>> >> > >> bottlenecks
>> >> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very
>> >> > >> reasonable
>> >> > >> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they
>> >> > >> survived
>> >> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another
>> >> > >> side -
>> >> > >> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did
>> >> > >> not
>> >> > >> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China
>> >> > >> -
>> >> > >> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
>> >> > >> Mongolia!
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
>> >> > >> problematic :)
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> --
>> >> > >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>> >> > >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>> >> > +972-54-5583675,javaap@
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
>>
>
>



--
Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
+972-54-5583675,javaap@...

Pavel,

one month ago I calculated the standard deviation for the different ySTR values
for 31 people tested M378+ (they are in three different projects) this is not a
strong, affordable statistic, given the little sample and the high correlation
among some of the members, but maybe they could be used to try a more
personalised analysis of our group. If you have the time and you want do this
analysys for us, these are the values

	  number  MAX 	 min 	 avrg  stdev
19  31 	 13 	 13 	 13 	 -
426  31 	 12 	 12 	 12 	 -
388  31 	 12 	 12 	 12 	 -
459a  28 	 9 	 9 	 9 	 -
455  28 	 11 	 11 	 11 	 -
437  28 	 14 	 14 	 14 	 -
GATAH4  27 	 9 	 9 	 9 	 -
YCAIIa  27 	 19 	 19 	 19 	 -
YCAIIb  27 	 19 	 19 	 19 	 -
438  27 	 11 	 11 	 11 	 -
531  18 	 11 	 11 	 11 	 -
578  18 	 8 	 8 	 8 	 -
395S1a  18 	 15 	 15 	 15 	 -
590  18 	 8 	 8 	 8 	 -
472  18 	 8 	 8 	 8 	 -
413a  18 	 22 	 22 	 22 	 -
413b  18 	 22 	 22 	 22 	 -
436  18 	 12 	 12 	 12 	 -
490 	 18 	 12 	 12 	 12 	 -
450  18 	 8 	 8 	 8 	 -
568  18 	 11 	 11 	 11 	 -
487  18 	 13 	 13 	 13 	 -
640  18 	 12 	 12 	 12 	 -
492  18 	 13 	 13 	 13 	 -
425  -   	 -   	 -   	 -   	 -
454  28 	 12 	 11 	 11 	 0,19
448  28 	 20 	 19 	 19 	 0,19
594  18 	 12 	 11 	 11 	 0,23
617  18 	 13 	 12 	 12 	 0,23
572  18 	 11 	 10 	 10 	 0,23
389|1  31 	 14 	 13 	 13 	 0,25
391  31 	 11 	 9 	 10 	 0,26
607  27 	 15 	 14 	 14 	 0,26
390  31 	 23 	 22 	 22 	 0,30
456  27 	 16 	 15 	 15 	 0,32
464a  28 	 15 	 13 	 14 	 0,33
464d  28 	 17 	 15 	 16 	 0,33
481  18 	 25 	 23 	 24 	 0,34
446  18 	 15 	 13 	 14 	 0,34
459b  28 	 10 	 9 	 9 	 0,35
449  28 	 30 	 29 	 29 	 0,35
389b  31 	 17 	 15 	 16 	 0,36
460  27 	 11 	 10 	 10 	 0,36
393  31 	 14 	 12 	 13 	 0,36
439  31 	 13 	 11 	 12 	 0,36
511  18 	 11 	 10 	 11 	 0,38
565  18 	 13 	 12 	 13 	 0,38
464c  28 	 16 	 15 	 15 	 0,39
464b  28 	 15 	 13 	 15 	 0,41
641  18 	 12 	 10 	 10 	 0,46
447  28 	 26 	 24 	 25 	 0,47
392  31 	 16 	 13 	 15 	 0,48
444  18 	 13 	 12 	 12 	 0,48
385a  31 	 15 	 13 	 14 	 0,51
39|2  31 	 31 	 28 	 29 	 0,51
570  27 	 18 	 15 	 16 	 0,53
442  27 	 13 	 11 	 12 	 0,55
458  28 	 18 	 16 	 17 	 0,57
537  18 	 12 	 10 	 11 	 0,59
406S1  18 	 13 	 11 	 12 	 0,59
CDYa  27 	 34 	 32 	 33 	 0,60
520  18 	 18 	 16 	 16 	 0,64
534  18 	 18 	 16 	 17 	 0,70
557  18 	 18 	 15 	 16 	 0,81
576  27 	 19 	 15 	 17 	 0,86
385b  31 	 18 	 13 	 16 	 0,90
35S1b  18 	 19 	 16 	 18 	 0,98
CDYb  27 	 40 	 34 	 37 	 1,29


Alessandro.


--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
>
> I computed a Time to the Most Recent Ancestor for Q1b in the Q FTDNA
> project and received about 1500 years.
> I have used mutation rates 0.090 mutations in a generation for 37
> marker haplotypes and 0.145 mutations for 67 markers haplotypes.
>
> Then I created a phylogenetic tree for the Q  37 markers haplotypes
> (using 'neighbor' tool from 'Phylip' package).
> On the diagram we see that a number of people, who was not tested as
> Q1b are likely Q1b and I included them into the computation of TMRCA.
>
> Then I received TMRCA about 1600-1700 years.
>
> Of course it is very approximately estimations because I use the same
> mutation speed of the all markers in TMRCA computation. And these
> mutation speed of markers is a subject of hot discussions in a
> scientific community.
>
> We see at the diagram, that a number of Q1b haplotypes are grouped
> separately - these are close related jewish haplotypes and others are
> creating a weakly related bush. Interestingly that this bush contains
> europian, jewish and even Iraqi haplotypes! [ see attached file
> q-37.jpg]
>
> After playing with 'Network' tool I created another diagramm, which
> used different mutation speed for the different markers (data provided
> by Ray Banks from G haplogroup project).
> Here we see that on 67 markers some jewish haplotypes, which were on
> separate branch earlier remains in the jewish clade - just are a
> little different. (Krupp and Minkowsky)
>
> [ see attached file q-67-network.jpg and q-67-2.jpg - zoomed in]
>
> For the jewish subclade we receive TMRCA between 800 to 1000 years.
> Here I want to repeat my idea - that we do not know - either Q1b
> entered jewish people at this point of time or it entered earlier, but
> 1000 years before they passed a bottleneck.
>
> We see also that non-jewish Q1b haplotypes mostly are not related to
> converted jews - they are on a separate branches - such like Johannes
> Bosiger and Jacob Jaggi. The diagramm shows that may be Antoine
> Magalhaes, Litke, Bionde own haplotypes derived from the jewish clade,
> but it may be wrong conclusion - we just do not have enough haplotypes
> similar to those. My feeling is that they also are not related to jews
> at all.
>
> Our most distant Q1b relatives are Antoine Magalhaes, Bennet and
> Francis Miller. If we remove them, TMRCA decreases to about 1300
> years.
>
> So we assume, that Q1b arrived to Europe about 1700 years before
> (again - my computations are very approximate). May be it arrived once
> - as a family or a separate person. Otherwise we need assume that it
> arrived a number of times in 400-500 years, but everytime there were
> related people (with TMRCA 300-400 years)
>
>
> Can somebody point me - which contacts with Q areas existed about 300
> B.C.-600 B.C?
> I know about Huns invasion. May be they carried a number of Q
> subgroups - Q1b, Q1a3 (which received Vikings and then Scotlands) and
> Q1a2 of Hungarians?
>
> What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
> Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
> for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
> other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
> Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
> from East?
> Do not know.
>
> And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
> Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
> Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
> haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
> value.
>
>
> --
> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
>
>
> (diagrams are attached)
>

Dear Pavel and all,

I have just uploaded an excel file named "haplotypes from scientific papers".
In this file I list all the haplotypes I could find as potential Q1b. Some
information about that file:
- I have listed all haplotype with more than a minimum of 7 marker tested: this
is the minimum used in the yhrd database, but it is a too low resolution.
Obviously you find also higher resolutions, to a maximum of 17.
- I used "large" parameters, so you find also some haplotypes with a low
probability to belong to Q1b: I am aware of this, but I accept this "low
probability sample" as a haplotype to study more, not to be excluded without a
deep view. I hope this lack of precision don't cause problems to your analysis.
- when needed, I did some adjustment to the allele values, because sometimes the
repeats are counted in different ways by some authors (mainly in the oldest
papers). Let me know if you need more info on this point.
- in the first sheet you could find the haplotypes, and in the last column there
is a short, sometime cryptic, description of the sample and the source. In the
second sheet I cite the source used. If you want the original papers I could
upload them (if not already in the file section of this web site) with the
supporting material, if in a separated file.
I hope to forget nothing, but I will stay in touch for any needs.
Regards (to you) and good night (to me because in Italy now it's sleeping time).
  Alessandro.


--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
>
> Dear, Alessandro, i failed to find scientific papers with Q haplotypes.
> Can you send me a link?
>
> We can try to add these haplotypes to the tree and compute TMRCA.
>
> But, as far, as I know, haplotypes in scientific papers are very short :(
>
>
> Regarding ancient Q1b in th eMiddle East _ I looked to Sephardic DNA project.
> Theoretically (!) if ancient jews owned Q1b, we should find Q1b in
> Sephardic population too.
>
> However there are too smal amount of sephards were tested. We have
> only 4 haplotypes here, and only one was confirmed as Q1b.
>
> Alfred also will say that Khazars arrived to Spain and it is the
> reason to see Q1b in Sephardic haplotypes. ;)
>
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 23:20, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear Pavel,
> >
> >> can you point me to the papers of Q1b suspect on the Middle East?
> >> What is "suspect"?
> > The "suspect" is not a suspect from the author, simply they are tested as Q
> > and they have the same ySTRs of the Q1b. For this reason I think (maybe I
> > used a wrong expression, I suspect) they are Q1b, based on those two precise
> > facts: they are Q and they have ySTRs value that are saying "we are Q1b". It
> > is the same situation of many people here, tested by FTDNA and not tested
> > for M378: we know they are Q1b, even if they are not tested for M378.
> >
> >> People either were tested to the M378 SNP or not !
> > Yes, but in scientific papers, if you exclude the paper from Sengupta (the
> > first discovery of M378) you never will find even one sample tested for
> > M378. I am saying Never. Because this is the rule, you can only search for
> > people that are tested for Q or Q1, AND, at same time, have the typical
> > ySTRs values of a Q1b. This is the same method applied to many people here,
> > tested for Q or Q1 and with the right ySTRs value to predict the as Q1b.
> > This is what I did for the samples in the two papers I cited (and in many
> > others)
> >
> >> Take a look - if Q1b lived in Middle East in ancient time, and these
> >> people had ancestors and ancestors of these ancestors survived until
> >> now - we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4 thousands
> >> years.
> >>
> >> We do not see it.
> >>
> >> So either there was a macro historical event of Q1b intrusion to
> >> Europe, or only one line of these ancient Q1b's survived until now.
> >>
> >
> > This point is true even in the case of an historical event: even in this
> > case as you point, <we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4
> > thousands. We do not see it >. Where do you think they are? In what part of
> > the world? In what ancestral population? The bottleneck is exactly what you
> > explain: the extinction of some of the lines and the surviving of only some
> > of the previous lines, and this is true in both the situations we are
> > discussing, macro or micro events. We don't see other lines because they
> > don't passed the bottleneck or maybe simply because we don't have enough
> > different (different at a ySTRs level) Q1b tested, from different
> > populations. And probably we experienced many bottlenecks in our history of
> > Q1b, and this is the reason why some of us form distinct, more homogeneous
> > groups (they have also other, more recent common ancestor, common only to
> > that group not to other people): the problem here is not the lack of
> > different living haplotypes, but the lack of many SNPs, because during
> > bottlenecks SNPs tends to accumulate (but again we are a poorly tested group
> > and our SNPs are not well known). Moreover the founder effect can easily
> > explain the relatively high frequency of a Q1b in a closed population as the
> > Jewish communities were.
> >
> > PS. When I was writing this response, on the group web site is arrived your
> > other post. You did a great work for us. Sincerely: thank you so much.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > Alessandro.
> >
> > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Alessandro,
> >> can you point me to the papers of Q1b suspect on the Middle East?
> >> What is "suspect"?
> >>
> >> People either were tested to the M378 SNP or not !
> >>
> >> Regarding your theory about micro personal events instead of macro event.
> >>
> >> I see a chance for it.
> >>
> >> Take a look - if Q1b lived in Middle East in ancient time, and these
> >> people had ancestors and ancestors of these ancestors survived until
> >> now - we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4 thousands
> >> years.
> >>
> >> We do not see it.
> >>
> >> So either there was a macro historical event of Q1b intrusion to
> >> Europe, or only one line of these ancient Q1b's survived until now.
> >>
> >> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 21:54, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi Nadene and all,
> >> >
> >> > unfortunately I have no paper supporting a sure connection between me
> >> > and
> >> > the Biondo merchants, because this is a historical fact going too far
> >> > back
> >> > in time to have such a paper. Simply it is a straightforward link
> >> > because of
> >> > the same surname (be assured this is an uncommon surname in Sicily, and
> >> > its
> >> > meaning is: with fair hairs), in the same little island (Sicily is not
> >> > as
> >> > large as Australia).
> >> >
> >> > Let me add a little opinion about our TMRCA and our common ancestor. We
> >> > know
> >> > from two different scientific paper published in 2008, one about Lebanon
> >> > (author Zalloua) and one other about Druze (author Shlush), that also
> >> > among
> >> > Druze there is a "suspect" of presence of Q1b. This is very interesting
> >> > because the Druze "would no longer accept new pledges in 1043, and since
> >> > that time conversion has been prohibited" (citation from Wikipedia). So
> >> > we
> >> > know that Q1b, or ySTRs values compatibles with our ySTRs values, are
> >> > living
> >> > in the Middle East area, among a persecuted and closed religious group
> >> > (sounds familiar?), since before 1043. In the same papers other
> >> > "suspect"
> >> > Q1b are found in Syria. So we know that it is likely that our common
> >> > ancestor lived before year 1043, and that in that years he, or some of
> >> > his
> >> > heirs, were living in the Middle East.
> >> >
> >> > Now, I hope you and other people here could accept a little provocation.
> >> > I
> >> > think that, because we do figure our common ancestor living 1000 years
> >> > ago,
> >> > we are too concentrated about the historical facts of that time, facts
> >> > acting at a macro level. But maybe we are not the results of a
> >> > macro-historical event, but of more limited, familiar or even personal
> >> > events.
> >> > Here is my provocation to the entire group. What do you think if Q1b
> >> > lived
> >> > in the Middle East since ancient times? Simply just one among the many
> >> > lines
> >> > of Q1b survived (passing the bottlenecks) and that line, with its
> >> > peculiar
> >> > ySTRs, it is a line that more likely could be originate in a rich family
> >> > (merchant or not)? Please, accept this only as a provocation, I am not
> >> > trying to sell this "theory" to other people, and this theory don't
> >> > represent in any way my certainty, but only my suspects. Simply I think
> >> > this
> >> > is a more simple, direct, straightforward way to explain why I and all
> >> > the
> >> > other people here, are they Jews or not, are they living in Europe, or
> >> > in
> >> > the Middle East or in Turkey, have our Q1b.
> >> >
> >> > Regards.
> >> >
> >> > Alessandro.
> >> >
> >> > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Alessandro,
> >> >> Don't give up on finding a Jewish connection yet. I read that the
> >> >> descendants of the Jewish royal family fled to their coreligionists in
> >> >> Spain
> >> >> in the year 1016.
> >> >> By the 1000's to 1200's, Khazaria collapsed as a nation, so the Ashina
> >> >> Royal Dynasty must have fled to relatives.
> >> >> In 1492 Columbus, an Italian, went from Spain with his 3 new ships to
> >> >> find
> >> >> the new world, and that was a period of the Spanish Inquisition. He
> >> >> wrote
> >> >> letters to his son in Hebrew. Some think he may have been Jewish. We
> >> >> don't
> >> >> know. However, the 1400's were a hard time for Jews and many were given
> >> >> the
> >> >> choice of converting or leaving in ships that could never get anywhere.
> >> >> It
> >> >> was a dangerous journey. This was world-wide. The Inquisition followed
> >> >> Jews
> >> >> to Mexico later. There were Jews in Italy before the fall of Jerusalem
> >> >> in
> >> >> 70AD brought there as slaves. Ghettos were first started in Italy and
> >> >> that
> >> >> is an Italian name. By 1400, some no doubt were still there.
> >> >> Many Jews had become merchants. It's interesting that Nicolo Biondo was
> >> >> from a family of merchants. It would be fantastic if you could trace
> >> >> who his
> >> >> ancestors were. I think you're a great researcher already to be able to
> >> >> go
> >> >> so far back in your genealogy searching. Not many of us can go back
> >> >> that
> >> >> far.
> >> >> All the best,
> >> >> Nadene Goldfoot
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: Alessandro Biondo
> >> >> To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
> >> >> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:55 AM
> >> >> Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Population bottlenecks and Q1b origins
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dear Pavel,
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't know if the silk trade connection is the right answer to our
> >> >> origin.
> >> >> This is what I know.
> >> >> The first documented man with my surname in Sicily is a silk trader
> >> >> living
> >> >> in the 1400's in Palermo (Nicolo' Biondo, of the Biondo family of
> >> >> merchants): he was active in trading silk between Sicily and the
> >> >> Flanders
> >> >> (at that time were both under the Spanish rule). I know that Sicily
> >> >> become
> >> >> the most important silk worm and raw silk producer in western world
> >> >> after
> >> >> year 1100. When the old trade routes from the east were useless
> >> >> (because of
> >> >> the producing of silk worms also in Sicily) maybe some silk trader
> >> >> moved
> >> >> their family to follow those new trades, and here there is the source
> >> >> of my
> >> >> Sicilian Q1b.
> >> >>
> >> >> This is the result of my personal research, and maybe I belong to a
> >> >> total
> >> >> different line respect other peoples in this forum, so that my rsearch
> >> >> is
> >> >> useless to other peoples. In effect I have found no connection to
> >> >> Jewish
> >> >> roots, not in my surname, not in that old ancestor of the XV century.
> >> >> But that is all I know, mixing genetic facts about me and historical
> >> >> facts
> >> >> about my surname.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards.
> >> >>
> >> >> Alessandro.
> >> >>
> >> >> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Pavel,
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and
> >> >> > > many
> >> >> > > objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you
> >> >> > > submit.
> >> >> > > A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and
> >> >> > > this is
> >> >> > > not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > war,
> >> >> > > famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have
> >> >> > > lots
> >> >> > > of
> >> >> > > surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you
> >> >> > > are
> >> >> > > rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and
> >> >> > > this
> >> >> > > give
> >> >> > > a boost to their progeny ...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Alessandro.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@>
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you
> >> >> > >> will
> >> >> > >> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead
> >> >> > >> has
> >> >> > >> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
> >> >> > >> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
> >> >> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
> >> >> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
> >> >> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
> >> >> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
> >> >> > >> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Why these networks looks in this way?
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
> >> >> > >> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
> >> >> > >> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
> >> >> > >> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is
> >> >> > >> a
> >> >> > >> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle
> >> >> > >> neck.
> >> >> > >> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal"
> >> >> > >> children,
> >> >> > >> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in
> >> >> > >> surrounding
> >> >> > >> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his
> >> >> > >> descendants,
> >> >> > >> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or
> >> >> > >> plague.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor
> >> >> > >> (TMRCA).
> >> >> > >> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
> >> >> > >> say, 1000 years ago?
> >> >> > >> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
> >> >> > >> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is
> >> >> > >> 2500
> >> >> > >> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population
> >> >> > >> between
> >> >> > >> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA
> >> >> > >> about
> >> >> > >> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my
> >> >> > >> own
> >> >> > >> haplogroup).
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish
> >> >> > >> woman
> >> >> > >> 1000 years ago.
> >> >> > >> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
> >> >> > >> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population
> >> >> > >> bottlenecks
> >> >> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very
> >> >> > >> reasonable
> >> >> > >> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they
> >> >> > >> survived
> >> >> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another
> >> >> > >> side -
> >> >> > >> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did
> >> >> > >> not
> >> >> > >> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China
> >> >> > >> -
> >> >> > >> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
> >> >> > >> Mongolia!
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
> >> >> > >> problematic :)
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> --
> >> >> > >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> >> >> > >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> >> >> > +972-54-5583675,javaap@
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Pavel Bernshtam

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:07 PM

Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Population bottlenecks and Q1b origins

Dear Alessandro,
can you point me to the papers of Q1b suspect on the Middle East?
What is "suspect"?

People either were tested to the M378 SNP or not !

Regarding your theory about micro personal events instead of macro event.

I see a chance for it.

Take a look - if Q1b lived in Middle East in ancient time, and these
people had ancestors and ancestors of these ancestors survived until
now - we should see diverse Q1b haplotypes with TMRCA of 3-4 thousands
years.

We do not see it.

So either there was a macro historical event of Q1b intrusion to
Europe, or only one line of these ancient Q1b's survived until now.

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 21:54, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@yahoo.it> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Nadene and all,
>
> unfortunately I have no paper supporting a sure connection between me and
> the Biondo merchants, because this is a historical fact going too far back
> in time to have such a paper. Simply it is a straightforward link because of
> the same surname (be assured this is an uncommon surname in Sicily, and its
> meaning is: with fair hairs), in the same little island (Sicily is not as
> large as Australia).
>
> Let me add a little opinion about our TMRCA and our common ancestor. We know
> from two different scientific paper published in 2008, one about Lebanon
> (author Zalloua) and one other about Druze (author Shlush), that also among
> Druze there is a "suspect" of presence of Q1b. This is very interesting
> because the Druze "would no longer accept new pledges in 1043, and since
> that time conversion has been prohibited" (citation from Wikipedia). So we
> know that Q1b, or ySTRs values compatibles with our ySTRs values, are living
> in the Middle East area, among a persecuted and closed religious group
> (sounds familiar?), since before 1043. In the same papers other "suspect"
> Q1b are found in Syria. So we know that it is likely that our common
> ancestor lived before year 1043, and that in that years he, or some of his
> heirs, were living in the Middle East.
>
> Now, I hope you and other people here could accept a little provocation. I
> think that, because we do figure our common ancestor living 1000 years ago,
> we are too concentrated about the historical facts of that time, facts
> acting at a macro level. But maybe we are not the results of a
> macro-historical event, but of more limited, familiar or even personal
> events.
> Here is my provocation to the entire group. What do you think if Q1b lived
> in the Middle East since ancient times? Simply just one among the many lines
> of Q1b survived (passing the bottlenecks) and that line, with its peculiar
> ySTRs, it is a line that more likely could be originate in a rich family
> (merchant or not)? Please, accept this only as a provocation, I am not
> trying to sell this "theory" to other people, and this theory don't
> represent in any way my certainty, but only my suspects. Simply I think this
> is a more simple, direct, straightforward way to explain why I and all the
> other people here, are they Jews or not, are they living in Europe, or in
> the Middle East or in Turkey, have our Q1b.
>
> Regards.
>
> Alessandro.
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Alessandro,
>> Don't give up on finding a Jewish connection yet. I read that the
>> descendants of the Jewish royal family fled to their coreligionists in Spain
>> in the year 1016.
>> By the 1000's to 1200's, Khazaria collapsed as a nation, so the Ashina
>> Royal Dynasty must have fled to relatives.
>> In 1492 Columbus, an Italian, went from Spain with his 3 new ships to find
>> the new world, and that was a period of the Spanish Inquisition. He wrote
>> letters to his son in Hebrew. Some think he may have been Jewish. We don't
>> know. However, the 1400's were a hard time for Jews and many were given the
>> choice of converting or leaving in ships that could never get anywhere. It
>> was a dangerous journey. This was world-wide. The Inquisition followed Jews
>> to Mexico later. There were Jews in Italy before the fall of Jerusalem in
>> 70AD brought there as slaves. Ghettos were first started in Italy and that
>> is an Italian name. By 1400, some no doubt were still there.
>> Many Jews had become merchants. It's interesting that Nicolo Biondo was
>> from a family of merchants. It would be fantastic if you could trace who his
>> ancestors were. I think you're a great researcher already to be able to go
>> so far back in your genealogy searching. Not many of us can go back that
>> far.
>> All the best,
>> Nadene Goldfoot
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Alessandro Biondo
>> To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:55 AM
>> Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Population bottlenecks and Q1b origins
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Pavel,
>>
>> I don't know if the silk trade connection is the right answer to our
>> origin.
>> This is what I know.
>> The first documented man with my surname in Sicily is a silk trader living
>> in the 1400's in Palermo (Nicolo' Biondo, of the Biondo family of
>> merchants): he was active in trading silk between Sicily and the Flanders
>> (at that time were both under the Spanish rule). I know that Sicily become
>> the most important silk worm and raw silk producer in western world after
>> year 1100. When the old trade routes from the east were useless (because of
>> the producing of silk worms also in Sicily) maybe some silk trader moved
>> their family to follow those new trades, and here there is the source of my
>> Sicilian Q1b.
>>
>> This is the result of my personal research, and maybe I belong to a total
>> different line respect other peoples in this forum, so that my rsearch is
>> useless to other peoples. In effect I have found no connection to Jewish
>> roots, not in my surname, not in that old ancestor of the XV century.
>> But that is all I know, mixing genetic facts about me and historical facts
>> about my surname.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> Alessandro.
>>
>> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Alessandro, thank you for your quick answer.
>> >
>> > When and where, for your opinion such contact occurred?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:07, Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Pavel,
>> > >
>> > > The theory of a silk trading connection is far to be perfect, and many
>> > > objections could be done, but I think it can pass the problems you
>> > > submit.
>> > > A family of rich merchants is not a simple man: they are rich, and
>> > > this is
>> > > not without relevance in terms of opportunity to survive in times of
>> > > war,
>> > > famine and plague. Also, during common times it is easier to have lots
>> > > of
>> > > surviving heirs if you are at the top of the social ranking and you
>> > > are
>> > > rich. Moreover they often have lots of servants (also woman), and this
>> > > give
>> > > a boost to their progeny ...
>> > >
>> > > Alessandro.
>> > >
>> > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> If you will look to any phylogenetic tree of any haplogroup, you will
>> > >> see that this tree is not looking as homogeneous bush, but instead
>> > >> has
>> > >> long "empty" branches with a "sub-bush" at the end.
>> > >> See examples for J2, G, E1b here:
>> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/13#2
>> > >> http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/page/14
>> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/updates.html
>> > >> http://www.j2-ydnaproject.net/public_results.html#firstphase
>> > >> http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/67markernetwork.html
>> > >>
>> > >> Why these networks looks in this way?
>> > >>
>> > >> Because every population passed through a number of bottlenecks -
>> > >> wars, famines etc. Only small number of human genetic lineages
>> > >> survived. And each such "sub bush" on a phylogenetic tree means
>> > >> somebody, who survived and his descendants were tested.
>> > >>
>> > >> Who are those who survived? If we will take a simple man, there is a
>> > >> little chance that his mutation in Y DNA passed through a bottle
>> > >> neck.
>> > >> However if we take a royal person, who has not only "formal"
>> > >> children,
>> > >> but also made children to all beautiful peasant women in surrounding
>> > >> villages - we have much more chance that somebody of his descendants,
>> > >> with his DNA passed through a bottleneck of a war, famine or plague.
>> > >>
>> > >> Now, let's look to a time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).
>> > >> What does it mean that some jewish haplotypes cluster has a TMRCA,
>> > >> say, 1000 years ago?
>> > >> It just mean that this population passed through a bottlenech 1000
>> > >> years ago. If TMRCA to the another, non-jewish nearest cluster is
>> > >> 2500
>> > >> years, it means that this haplogroup entered jewish population
>> > >> between
>> > >> 2500 and 1000 years ago. We can not say more precise time.
>> > >>
>> > >> And for most of Ashkenazi clades in all haplogroups we see TMRCA
>> > >> about
>> > >> 800-1200 years. The same is for Q1b clade and for G1a clade (my own
>> > >> haplogroup).
>> > >>
>> > >> Now, let's take this theory to the our, Q1b quest.
>> > >>
>> > >> Let's take idea of single Silk Road merchant, who met a jewish woman
>> > >> 1000 years ago.
>> > >> We see that a chance that such single contact produced a number of
>> > >> descandants, who passed through all Ashkenazi population bottlenecks
>> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population is very very small.
>> > >>
>> > >> Let's take idea of the Royal Ashina family. It looks very reasonable
>> > >> that they produced a large number of descendants, and so they
>> > >> survived
>> > >> and provided 5% of Ashkenazi population. However, from another side -
>> > >> if a Royal family was Q1b, then the part of the family which did not
>> > >> moved to the west , to Khazars, those who lived in the North China -
>> > >> should provide similar large number of Q1b population in China and
>> > >> Mongolia!
>> > >>
>> > >> So from the bottlenecks point of view - both theories are every
>> > >> problematic :)
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>> > >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
>> > +972-54-5583675,javaap@
>> >
>>
>
>

--
Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
+972-54-5583675,javaap@gmail.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Pavel Bernshtam

To: ashkenazi-q

Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:23 PM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] TMRCA of Q1b and diagrams

I computed a Time to the Most Recent Ancestor for Q1b in the Q FTDNA
project and received about 1500 years.
I have used mutation rates 0.090 mutations in a generation for 37
marker haplotypes and 0.145 mutations for 67 markers haplotypes.

Then I created a phylogenetic tree for the Q 37 markers haplotypes
(using 'neighbor' tool from 'Phylip' package).
On the diagram we see that a number of people, who was not tested as
Q1b are likely Q1b and I included them into the computation of TMRCA.

Then I received TMRCA about 1600-1700 years.

Of course it is very approximately estimations because I use the same
mutation speed of the all markers in TMRCA computation. And these
mutation speed of markers is a subject of hot discussions in a
scientific community.

We see at the diagram, that a number of Q1b haplotypes are grouped
separately - these are close related jewish haplotypes and others are
creating a weakly related bush. Interestingly that this bush contains
europian, jewish and even Iraqi haplotypes! [ see attached file
q-37.jpg]

After playing with 'Network' tool I created another diagramm, which
used different mutation speed for the different markers (data provided
by Ray Banks from G haplogroup project).
Here we see that on 67 markers some jewish haplotypes, which were on
separate branch earlier remains in the jewish clade - just are a
little different. (Krupp and Minkowsky)

[ see attached file q-67-network.jpg and q-67-2.jpg - zoomed in]

For the jewish subclade we receive TMRCA between 800 to 1000 years.
Here I want to repeat my idea - that we do not know - either Q1b
entered jewish people at this point of time or it entered earlier, but
1000 years before they passed a bottleneck.

We see also that non-jewish Q1b haplotypes mostly are not related to
converted jews - they are on a separate branches - such like Johannes
Bosiger and Jacob Jaggi. The diagramm shows that may be Antoine
Magalhaes, Litke, Bionde own haplotypes derived from the jewish clade,
but it may be wrong conclusion - we just do not have enough haplotypes
similar to those. My feeling is that they also are not related to jews
at all.

Our most distant Q1b relatives are Antoine Magalhaes, Bennet and
Francis Miller. If we remove them, TMRCA decreases to about 1300
years.

So we assume, that Q1b arrived to Europe about 1700 years before
(again - my computations are very approximate). May be it arrived once
- as a family or a separate person. Otherwise we need assume that it
arrived a number of times in 400-500 years, but everytime there were
related people (with TMRCA 300-400 years)

Can somebody point me - which contacts with Q areas existed about 300
B.C.-600 B.C?
I know about Huns invasion. May be they carried a number of Q
subgroups - Q1b, Q1a3 (which received Vikings and then Scotlands) and
Q1a2 of Hungarians?

What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
from East?
Do not know.

And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
value.

--
Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
+972-54-5583675,javaap@gmail.com

(diagrams are attached)