Dear Dave,

Your family is one the clearest case of the Khazarian Princess
who has been adopted into Levite rank.
There is no Q's in Sephard population of Spain. But still Sefer
ha-Kaballah (1116.) ,as well as other sources mention Khazarian
Princess (all members of the ruling class of Khazaria was equal
and royal, this clan system of nobility has been adopted
sometime later in Poland) , "pupils of the wise" , who has been
as refugees in Spain after collapse of Khazaria.
Your Q family came from Spain to Eastern Europe, in opposition to
regular movement of Q's from Khazaria to Polish-Lithuanian
Kingdom, Hungary, Germany etc. in period of (10)11-13th century.
So many historical facts has been proven within Your case DNA
testing, as well as firm and preserved Levite rank.
Other families within our genetic pool with Levite and Cohanim
tradition just underline this rank (meaning "the one who convert
on Judaism, also has been adopted in Levite status"-that further
means - somebody very important and right).

Number of detected Levite families within our "circle" is
increasing constantly. I have discussed this with Bennet
Greenspan.

I really don't feel that we descent from a single man before only
900 years ago.
New DNA results shows more and more diversity, but still within
Ashkenazi genetic pool.And of course we should not forget
Central Asian close or relat. close matches.

I have enclosed recently updated and enlarged background text
from the FTDNA Ashina of Khazars project. You will notice that
in time of conversion, according to Jewish sources inital
genetic input was emperor+4000 nobles/royals.
By my opinion this number of 4000 definitely include Q1b,R1a1,R1b
and others, but Q1b is most easier case to track due to
low/moderate or none distribution outside Ashkenazi/Khazars
poss.descendants and Hazara/Sindhi (according to currently
avaible data).

I am aware that Khazar ancestry is still not accepted or refused
among many, but please read text with care /I have used as many
as possible Jewish sources/, as it answers on many repeating
questions;


בט מלכותי של אשינה
THE ASHINA (ASHENA/ASENA) ROYAL CLAN AND CONTEMPORARY DESCENDANTS

One legend of the origin of the Türks relates how a boy is
nurtured back to health by a she-wolf, who later
becomes pregnant by him and gives birth in a cavern to ten boys
who take the name Ashina and “in front of the
gate to the camp the Türks placed a standard with a wolf’s
head on it, so as to show that they had not forgotten
their origins” .

(Sinor, “Legendary Origin,” 224-25, see also 233-35 and
Golden, “Imperial,” 42-43)


"Of all the astonishing experiences of the widely dispersed
Jewish people none was more extraordinary than that concerning
the Khazars."

(Nathan Ausubel in Pictorial History of the Jewish People,1953)


------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------

With the discovery of haplogroup Q among Ashkenazi Jews, DNA
researchers may have found the “smoking gun” of Khazarian
ancestry. (A MOSAIC OF PEOPLE: THE JEWISH STORY AND A
REASSESSMENT OF THE DNA EVIDENCE ,Ellen Levy-Coffman)

"..I agree that it is likely that the presence of haplogroup Q
among Ashkenazic Jews could come from descent from the Khazars".
(Kevin Brook ,author of The Jews of Khazaria (Second Edition:
Rowman & Littlefield, 2006) in open respond to D.Howard
administrator of Ashkenazi-Q Yahoo group)


A study published in 2004 by Stephen L. Zegura states that "The
mutational age of Q-P36*, the marker defining the entire Q
lineage, is 17,700 ± 4,820 years BP", and that its original
source is the region of the Altay Mountains near the borders of
Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, and China (Zegura 2004, pp.
164-175).

In accordance with the 2008 Y-Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree,
previous Q is divided in Q and Q1(clades studied in this
project, as well as Q1b).

Q1b(M378)has been found at low frequency among samples of Hazara
and Sindhis, as well as Ashkenazi Jews.

There is a rough correlation between the Turkic-speaking peoples
of Central Eurasia and Q.
/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA)/

The Ashina Royal Dynasty (CLAN) also originated from the Altai
Mountain region;
"...Two stages can be isolated within the history of origin of
the Old Turks reconstructed on the base of the Old Turkic
ethnogenealogical legends. The first one is attributed to the
time span lasted up to the middle of the 5 century when tribes
of Gorny and Mongolian Altai merged in the tribal alliance
headed by Nadulushud.
By "common consent" he was called Turk ('strong', 'robust').The
second stage began in the middle of the 5 century when "500
FAMILIES" OF THE ASHINA CLAN headed by Asyanshud were moved by
the Rurans from Gaochang to the southern part of the Altai. Here
the migrants joined the ranks of the Turk tribal unit. Probably
it was a peaceful migration of the Ashina clan being cognate in
language (though L.N. Gumilev considered them to be Mongolian
speaking) and similar in the type of economic activity (nomadic
cattlebreading)to aborigines of the Altai. This is proved by the
fact that the Ashina "500 families" also assumed the name of
Turks."
(S.P.Nesterov,The Old Turks in Central Asia and Southern Siberia)

Khan (sometimes spelled as Xan, Han, Ke-Han, Turkic: khan,
Mongolian: qaan) is an originally Central Asian title for a
sovereign or military ruler, first used by medieval
Altaic-speaking nomadic tribes living to the north of China.
Originally just the title for a tribal leader in the Rouran
confederation,it was subsequently adopted by the Göktürks
before later Turkic peoples and the Mongols brought it to the
rest of Asia.
It now has many equivalent meanings such as commander, leader, or
ruler. (source; Wikipedia article about Khan title)

Khagan or Great Khan (Old Turkic kaɣan ; Mongolian: хаган;
Chinese: 可汗; pinyin: kèhán; alternatively spelled Chagan,
Khaghan, Kagan, Kağan, Qagan, Qaghan), is a title of imperial
rank in the Turkic and Mongolian languages equal to the status
of emperor and someone who rules a Khaganate (empire, greater
than an ordinary Khanate, but often referred to as such in
western languages). It may also be translated as Khan of Khans,
equivalent to King of Kings.(source; Wikipedia article about
Khagan title)

The R1a (R1a1) lineage is believed to have originated in the
Eurasian Steppes north of the Black & Caspian Seas. This lineage
is thought to descend from a population of the Kurgan culture,
known for the domestication of the horse (circa 3000 B.C.E.).
These people were also believed to be the first speakers of the
Indo-European language group. This lineage is found in central &
western Asia, India, and in Slavic populations of
Europe.Haplogroup R1b is the most common haplogroup in European
populations. It is believed to have expanded throughout Europe
as humans re-colonized after the last glacial maximum 10-12
thousand years ago. This lineage is also the haplogroup
containing the Atlantic modal haplotype.

Hypotetic origin of Ashina aristocracy;
The origins of the Huns that swept through Europe during the 4th
Century remain unclear. However, mainstream historians consider
them as a group of nomadic tribes from Central Asia probably
ruled by "a Turkic-speaking aristocracy".
/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomadic_empires /

"Ashina -- the Royal clan of the Blue Turks (and possibly earlier
the Huns) and later of the Khazars..."/Norman J. Finkelshteyn/

Ashina aristocracy origin from historical records;
Between the years 265 and 460 the Ashina had been part of various
late Xiongnu confederations. About 460 they were subjugated by
the Rouran, who ousted them from Xinjiang into the Altay
Mountains, where the Ashina gradually emerged as the leaders of
the early Turkic confederation, known as the Gokturks.
By the 550s, Bumin Khan felt strong enough to throw off the yoke
of the Rouran domination and established the Gokturks Empire,
which flourished until the 630s and from 680s until 740s.
The Orkhon Valley in Mongolia was the centre of the Ashina power.

On basis of Chinese records, we could tell that Ashina Turks were
acting more as a noble or royal line which played the role of a
political entity unifying various Turkic speaking tribes.
(http://www.republicanchina.org/Turks.html)

The Ashina Royal Dynasty was also known as "desert aristocracy"
and
it was ruling class of a number of central Asian empires, and
eventually it became the ruling class (nobility) and khagans
(emperors) of the Khazarian Khaganate in the early middle age (in
year 656, after the collapse of the Gokturk Empire under pressure
from the resurgent Uyghurs, branches of the Ashina clan moved
westward to Europe, where they became the Kaghans of the
Khazars).

According to The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia the ruling
class of the Khazarian Empire - sacred Khagan Bulan and 4000 OF
HIS NOBLES (PRINCESS OF THE ASHINA CLAN), from ancient "Turkish"
shamanism converted to Judaism in the 8th century.
While the kingdom and ruling class were officially Jewish, the
Khazars did not adopt forced conversion.

"The Khazars originated from the distant East, from the border
areas of China. In the seventh century, they were swept by the
Great Migrations to the mouth of the River Volga and the shores
of the Caspian Sea. Here the Khazars conquered Onogur and
Bulgar-Turkic tribes who spoke another Turkic dialect. In the
seventh and eighth centuries, this new empire halted Arab
expansionism, established contact with Byzantium, and became a
decisive force between the Caspian Sea and the River Don up to
the middle of the tenth century. Land cultivation, animal
husbandry and handicrafts flourished in the empire. Merchants
traded not only with Byzantium, but also with the Arab-Persian
world and the distant East. The kagans did not prohibit the
activities of Christian and Moslem missionaries. Both religions
maintained places or worship and schools on Khazar land. Out of
political considerations, however, the kagans and their retinues
embraced a third great monotheist religion, Judaism. This was to
avoid pressure on them from the Byzantine Empire and the various
Arab emirates. The peoples of the Khazar Khanate had a more
advanced way of life than those of the Central Asian Turkic
tribes, whose chief occupation was nomadic animal husbandry. The
level of its agriculture and handicrafts industry matched
contemporary European standards. In terms of commercial
development it even exceeded them. However, the empire was a
loosely organized entity, with the fluctuating numbers of
subjugated peoples rather than fixed boundaries determining its
size. The Magyar tribal alliance constituted one such subjugated
people."- György Balázs, The Magyars. Budapest: Corvina, 1989

According to the scholar Robert M. Seltzer, “The Judaism of the
Khazars has been much discussed but the historical evidence is
very limited. Only the ruling class of the Khazars became
Jews...”

Raphael Patai states: “For more than two centuries Judaism was
the religion of the ruling class while other religions, notably
Islam, but also Christianity, were extensively practiced among
the people.”
Abba Eban has written: “...the rulers of the Khazars apparently
converted to Judaism at the end of the eighth century, although
the majority of the population appears to have remained either
Christian or Moslem.”

"In 1016 the descendants of the Jewish royal family fled to their
coreligionists in Spain. Many of the Jewish Khazars, however,
continued to live in the Crimea.... But the majority of the
early Khazar proselytes were scattered over the neighboring
countries, introducing Jewish ideals among their Christian
neighbors..."
- Jacob S. Raisin, in Gentile Reactions to Jewish Ideals (New
York, NY: Philosophical Library, 1953), page 691.

Stephen Lowe stated;"It appears from contemporary accounts,
particularly from Arab sources, that the conversion to Judaism
was largely confined to the ruling class – the Khaqan and his
immediate côterie. They showed a level of religious toleration
unusual in a mediaeval society – there seems to have been no
effort at forcible conversion. The Khazar population included
many Christians, Muslims, and pagans in their ranks, and the
major cities contained churches and mosques."

"In this city (Khazaran-Itil) are Muslims, Christians, Jews and
pagans. The Jews are the king, his attendants and the Khazars of
his kind. (footnote: 'i.e., presumably THE RULING TRIBE of
‘White Khazars’).'" (Koestler, pp. 15,60)

"According to Ibn Fadlan, Ibn Dastah, and others, ONLY THE KING
AND THE GRANDEES WERE FOLLOWERS OF JUDAISM. The rest of the
Khazars were Christians, Mohammedans, and heathens; and THE JEWS
WERE IN A GREAT MINORITY." (Jewish Encyclopedia)

"The conversion of the LEADING KHAZARS to Judaism perhaps took
place toward 740 C.E." (Jewish Encyclopedia)

"The most striking characteristic of the Khazars was the apparent
adoption of Judaism BY THE KHAGAN AND THE GREATER PART OF THE
RULING CLASS in about 740." (Encyclopedia Britannica)

"In the town (Atil, the capital of Khazaria) are people of the
Muslims, more than 10,000, it is said. They have about thirty
mosques. ... Their king is a Jew.... The Khazars’ smallest
group is the Jews...though THE KING AND HIS COURT ARE JEWS."
"Their supreme ruler is a Jew.... The rest of them have a
religion like the religion of the Turks." (Dunlop, The History
Of The Khazars, quoting Arab sources)

"Most Khazars practiced shamanist-Täri religion. In the late
eighth to early ninth century (but perhaps as late as 861), THE
KHAZAR RULING ELITE CONVERTED TO JUDAISM. While many questions
remain concerning this conversion and its pervasiveness, it is
clear that by accepting Judaism, the ruling class made Khazaria
a religious neutral zone for its warring Christian and Islamic
neighbors. Religious tolerance and Khazaria's international
commercial interests brought Christians, Muslims, Jews, pagans,
and others to trade and live within the kaghanate."(Russian
History Encyclopedia)

Tests of Y-DNA of Ashkenazi Jews in significant part or
completely confirmed above stated facts.

Presence of haplogroup R (R1a, R1a1 etc.) in the Ashkenazi
genetic pool (presented in 12% or more) is seen (in largest
portion), by some researchers, as supporting evidence of
possible conversion of part of general population of Khazaria,
as well as pre-Jewish priesthood (Qam's)/as described in several
reports/, or due to the great number of Levits among them as well
as DNA imprint of the Khazar royalty.

The other religions were not only tolerated, but were an integral
part of the Khazar structure.
Thus, the court of Itil (the capital) had seven judges. Two
judged the Jews (ruling according to Jewish law), two judged the
Christians (ruling according to Christian law), two judged the
Mulims (according to the Koran), and one judge judged those who
had retained the Turkic Shamanistic religion (according to their
law).

Khazaria as a nation, collapsed first in 11th and finally in the
13th century, and it is considered that only a minor part of
Ashkenazi Jewish population originate from it.
DNA studies of Ashkenazi Jews confirmed this consideration (up to
some 17-30% /R1a,R1a1,R1b,G,Q etc../ in total of Ashkenazi Jewish
population originate from Khazarian Empire).

Up to some 5% percent of Ashkenazi Jews have a very narrow and
unique genetic trail which is placed in haplogroup Q (Q1), which
means that, following genetic/time calculations, a common male
ancestor lived aprox. 1000 years ago.

Significant numbers of them have oral traditions to be Levites.
"Talmudic sources may possibly be interpreted to support the
notion of differences in the social, religious, and legal
barriers that relate to the assumption of Cohen and Levite
status. These include
descriptions of the possible assumption of Levite
status other than through patrilineal descent, in a Talmudic
passage describing a debate regarding the potential
assignment of Levite status to a man (and his descendants)
whose father was a non-Jew and whose
mother was the daughter of a Levite. Such differences
could have provided the backdrop for the sanctioned
acceptance of Levite status other than through patrilineal
descent." (Multiple Origins of Ashkenazi Levites: Y Chromosome
Evidence for Both Near Eastern and European Ancestries-
Doron M. Behar, Mark G. Thomas, Karl Skorecki,1 Michael F.
Hammer, Ekaterina Bulygina, Dror Rosengarten, Abigail L. Jones,
Karen Held, Vivian Moses, David Goldstein, Neil Bradman, and
Michael E. Weale Bruce Rappaport Faculty of Medicine and
Research Institute, Technion and Rambam Medical Center, Haifa,
Israel; The Centre for Genetic Anthropology and The Centre for
Population Genetics and Human Health, Department of Biology,
University College London, London; and Division of
Biotechnology, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ)
Therefore, this project is also the Ashkenazi Levite project, as
well.

Accounts of the Gokturk and Khazar khaganates suggest that the
Ashina clan was accorded SACRED, perhaps QUASI-DIVINE STATUS in
the shamanic religion practiced by the steppe nomads of the
first millennium CE /The pagan Turks believed that their Ashina
Qaghans ruled by virtue of heavenly mandated charisma (QUT).
Since their blood could not be shed, dethroned Qaghans were
strangled with a silk cord. The investiture ceremonies of the
Ashina Turks and Khazar Qaghans included ritual
near-strangulation. As THIS CHARISMA (QUT) RESIDED IN THE ENTIRE
ROYAL CLAN, the latter exercised a collective sovereignty over
their realms resulting in frequent succession struggles/.
(http://au.encarta.msn.com)

Peter B. Golden states; "The ruling house and core tribes of the
Khazar empire did not share the same tribal or, in many
instances, ethnic origins as those of the Qaganate’s diverse
subject population. The Khazar rulers were heirs of the Türk
qaganal charisma. Although aspects of sacral rule and dual
kingship can be seen in the Türk and other Inner Asian
nomad-based empires, it was only in Khazaria that the Qagan
became a sacralised, tabuised figure. This transformation
occurred in the 9th century and may reflect the influence of the
Ors, the Khwârazmian-Iranian guard of the Qagan and the chief
minister drawn from their ranks".

Haplogroup Q (Q1b) is one of the basic haplogroups of the
Mongolic race, and it is almost absent from European population,
where is represented mainly in Jewish community/and communities
with Jewish and Viking ancestry (please
check;http://home.swipnet.se/~w-14723/birka/birke010.html).

HAPLOGROUP Q (Q1b) IS SOLE REPRESENTATION OF THE MONGOLIC
/CENTRAL-NORTH ASIAN/ RACE WITHIN ASHKENAZI GENETIC POOL.
THIS IS ALSO ASHKENAZI HAPLOGROUP WITH THE LEVITE ANCESTRY (OTHER
IS R1a1-THE MOST COMMON NON-ISRAELITE/SLAVIC HAPLOGROUP).

In circumstances when we still don't have any old DNA samples
/and that cannot be expected in foreseeable future/, unique
historical event of the Khazarian (Turko-Mongolic Ashina)
royalty and nobility /and priesthood/ conversion to Judaism
(this event was not recorded and not known in any other nation
including any of 25 or more vassal nations or tribes of Khazars)
give us opportunity to scientifically track down and uncover most
possible descendants /KHANs/ of this particular branch of the
Ashina IMPERIAL RACE /term used by L.Gumilev/.



Regards,

Alfred Krupa prof.
Croatia




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Rebekah,

How similar/close M323 is to M378?

And how do You comment this statement from Wikipedia;
"Q is the only Haplogroup common, though now in tiny numbers, to
all areas where Pyramids have been built."?

Alfred
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Bob,

You have asked a great question!

I need to update the graphic on the front page.

Now that the SNP M378 marker has been discovered we are one step away
from the Mongolians.

I had assumed that Attila the Hun epitomized Mongolians in Europe prior
to the year 1000.

However, it is not that clear that he was a Mongolian. He may have just
been what is today a Hungarian, or an ancestor of the Hungarians.
Attila, if he actually existed, lived about 500 CE.

While our yDNA does go back to Mongolia we now know it was filtered
through a nomadic tribe that roamed through Afghanistan and India.

I will have to replace Attila with the face of a nomadic tribesman.

Thanks for the note.

Dave





--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <Vick@...> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
>  Did you read that Attila the Hun was Q or are you just making a
point?
>
>
>
>  Thanks Bob
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com]
On
> Behalf Of Dave Howard
> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 7:55 PM
> To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Levites?
>
>
>
> Adam,
>
> We have put up some scientific research papers in the Files section of
> this website. Click on Files to the left and you will see there is a
> file with the title Behar et al 2003.pdf . Download that file and take
a
> look. You will see that they identified Ashkenazi Levites as being
about
> 51% R1a1 (under the old classification system). The Cohanim are mostly
> J. As far as I know there is no specific yDNA figured out for the
> Levites even though it was a honor that passed from father to son,
> normally.
>
> I need to change the pictures on our home page and eventually I will.
We
> now know that we are probably not related to Atilla the Hun. He was
not
> Q1b as far as we know. He was more like just plain old Q.
>
> My family has a Levite tradition as do some of our other members.
> However, I have learned that the righteous daughter of a righteous
> Levite could pass Levitness on to her son under provisions of the
> Talmud.
>
> Getting a woman in the line does make it a bit confusing.
>
> Dave Howard
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com,
> "adam_bratter" adam_bratter@
> wrote:
> >
> > Question:
> >
> > Is there a specific genetic sequence like the Cohen Modal Haplotype
> which denotes Levites?
> > The home page of this group has a picture of both Atilla and a
> Levite...how would Levites be of the Q Haplogroup, a non-middle
eastern
> group?
> >
>

Prof Krupa,

Thanks for your very interesting post.

Alas, I do not believe the Khazarian Princess theory works for me.

I am a member of the Horowitz family that is a Rabbinical family that
goes back to Spain at least to the year about 950. Our family was the
Ha-Levi ("The Levite") family in Spain until they fled the inquisition
and wound up settling in a little city named Horovice just outside of
Prague in the Czech Republic in about 1500. They did build the Pinkus
Synagogue in Prague and became known as Horowitz in Yiddish named for
the little city they came from.

There is a Horowitz Family surname project at Family Tree DNA and while
we do not have a lot of participants I am finding that they are
separating into several different Haplogroups - The largest group is
R1a1, I have a couple of Q1b and one J1.

My good friend, Itzhak Epstein, has a Beneveniste, Horowitz, & Epstein
surname project running and he claims that  the true blue Horowitz
Haplogrup is R1a1. He does not consider me to be a real Horowitz due to
my Q.

While I have my paper record back to Henoch Horowitz born about 1745 in
Rezekne, Latvia (former Vitebsk Gubernia in the Russian Empire).

It was certainly proper for a young man who wanted to become a Rabbi to
take his mother's maiden name if it was a Rabbinical surname. Did this
happen in my family between 1500 and 1745?

Or is Itzhak is wrong and I am the mainstream Horowitz and I got my Q
DNA before 1500?

If my family picked up Haplogroup Q prior to 1500 it would have been in
Spain. But then how did I link up with you? The probabillities get to be
pretty high that you and I share a common relative about 800 years ago.

Rebekah Canada might be able to help us. She is attending the Group
Administrators Conference in Houston today. I was going to go but I had
health problems. I am anxious to hear what will come from that meeting.
Bennett Greenspan and I are to talk on a phone call in about a week.

Thanks again for your interesting insights and comments.

Dave

Dave,

I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.

After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
remained in South Russia,Ukraine,Poland etc..,much smaller
number fled to Spain.

Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
invited for that purpose.

We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
Levits;Brandt,Frank,Friedman,Kushner,Levy,Liebman,Loebman,Marks,Sherman,Zwick
etc.

And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.

What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?

Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
any Q.
I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
But that is completely different subject.

R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.

We shall see.

Regards,


Alfred



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From: KRUPA

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 5:01 AM

Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Levites - Khazarian Princess

Dave,

I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.

After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
remained in South Russia,Ukraine,Poland etc..,much smaller
number fled to Spain.

Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
invited for that purpose.

We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
Levits;Brandt,Frank,Friedman,Kushner,Levy,Liebman,Loebman,Marks,Sherman,Zwick
etc.

And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.

What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?

Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
any Q.
I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
But that is completely different subject.

R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.

We shall see.

Regards,

Alfred

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Dear Lloyd,

I know Your case from our DNA matches list.
Hungary is country very important for Khazar and Khazar Jews
history /Kabars case, first dynasty election etc../, and Khazars
was always highly appreciated trough Hungarian history.
We have people, Jews from Hungary, who assumed Khazar origin
before DNA tests occured.

Regards,

Alfred

Citiram Lloyd Friedman <lloydon@...>:

> I am Friedman (Hungary) on my father's side and Levy (Grodno) on my
> Mother's. Q1b Paternal. K1a1b1a Maternal.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>  From: KRUPA
>  To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 5:01 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Levites - Khazarian Princess
>
>
>  Dave,
>
>  I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.
>
>  After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
>  centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
>  remained in South Russia,Ukraine,Poland etc..,much smaller
>  number fled to Spain.
>
>  Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
>  invited for that purpose.
>
>  We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
>
> Levits;Brandt,Frank,Friedman,Kushner,Levy,Liebman,Loebman,Marks,Sherman,Zwick
>  etc.
>
>  And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
>  century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.
>
>  What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?
>
>  Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
>  any Q.
>  I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
>  But that is completely different subject.
>
>  R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
>  but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.
>
>  We shall see.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Alfred
>
>  ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
>  Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
>  Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
>  http://shopping.tportal.hr
>
>
>


---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
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     http://shopping.tportal.hr

Where can I find your report?




--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.
>
> After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
> centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
> remained in South Russia,Ukraine,Poland etc..,much smaller
> number fled to Spain.
>
> Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
> invited for that purpose.
>
> We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
> Levits;Brandt,Frank,Friedman,Kushner,Levy,Liebman,Loebman,Marks,Sherman,Zwick
> etc.
>
> And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
> century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.
>
> What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?
>
> Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
> any Q.
> I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
> But that is completely different subject.
>
> R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
> but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.
>
> We shall see.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Alfred
>
>
>
> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
>     Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
>     Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
>     http://shopping.tportal.hr
>

Which one?


Citiram Dave Howard <dshoward@...>:

> Where can I find your report?
>
>
>
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.
>>
>> After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
>> centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
>> remained in South Russia,Ukraine,Poland etc..,much smaller
>> number fled to Spain.
>>
>> Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
>> invited for that purpose.
>>
>> We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
>> Levits;Brandt,Frank,Friedman,Kushner,Levy,Liebman,Loebman,Marks,Sherman,Zwick
>> etc.
>>
>> And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
>> century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.
>>
>> What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?
>>
>> Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
>> any Q.
>> I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
>> But that is completely different subject.
>>
>> R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
>> but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.
>>
>> We shall see.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Alfred
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
>>     Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
>>     Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
>>     http://shopping.tportal.hr
>>
>
>
>


---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
     Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
     Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
     http://shopping.tportal.hr

Hi,  I have just joined your group.  My paternal line is haplogroup Q.  One of
the most compelling reasons for my exploring my family DNA was that my father's
family carried a trait of asian-type eye shape.  In fact, people used to think
that my cousin, was part asian.

Seeing Dave's photos were such a pleasant surprise in that members of his family
have asian-type eyes.

I plan to post photos of my father, grandfather and great-grandfather.  My
grandfather said he was born in Ukraine in a town called "Shimsk" which among
other names,is also called Shumskoye.  Their surname was Tober, which my
grandfather maintained, was always his name.  They were also Jewish.

I'm glad to be a part of this fascinating family and hope that we can discover
more about ourselves!

Best wishes,
Cristie Tober Krauss

I had my father's male-line DNA tested through the National Geographic project
and was so surprised to find the Siberian connection that I had it tested again.
Sure enough, we're group "Q"!

My father's family is German Jewish.  The first "Graff" emigrated to the U.S. in
1810.  As far as anybody knows, the family had been in Germany (the southern
part, I think) for centuries before that.

What should we make of this?
J. Graff

Sibera was a *long* time ago, maybe 10,000 years.

I'm a match, and my paternal line came from south/southeast Germany.
Upgrade your test to more markers, maybe we're very closely related.

Regards,

-Eben Haber


On Mar 29, 2009, at 12:29 PM, jgraff100@... wrote:

> I had my father's male-line DNA tested through the National
> Geographic project and was so surprised to find the Siberian
> connection that I had it tested again.  Sure enough, we're group "Q"!
>
> My father's family is German Jewish.  The first "Graff" emigrated to
> the U.S. in 1810.  As far as anybody knows, the family had been in
> Germany (the southern part, I think) for centuries before that.
>
> What should we make of this?
> J. Graff
>

The Sogdians  dominated the East-West trade after the 4th century CE up to the 8th century CE, with Suyab  and Talas ranking among their main centers in the north. They were the maincaravan merchants of Central Asia. Their commercial interests wereprotected by the resurgent military power of the Gokturks, whose empire has been described as"the joint enterprise of the Ashina  clan and the Soghdians".^[38][37] Their trades with some interruptions continued in the 9th century within the framework of the Uighur Empire ,which until 840 extended across northern Central Asia and obtained fromChina enormous deliveries of silk in exchange for horses. At this timecaravans of Sogdians traveling to Upper Mongolia are mentioned inChinese sources. They played an equally important religious andcultural role. Part of the data about eastern Asia provided by Muslimgeographers of the 10th century actually goes back to Sogdian data ofthe period 750-840 and thus shows the survival of links between eastand west. However, after the end of the Uighur Empire, Sogdian tradewent through a crisis. What mainly issued from Muslim Central Asia was the trade of the Samanids, which resumed the northwestern road leading to the Khazars and theUrals and the northeastern one toward the nearby Turkic tribes.^[37] [Bold Added]

----- Original Message -----

From: Dave Howard

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:58 PM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Official Rumors #1, #2, and #3 - When and Where our yDNA Came From

Official Rumor #1 - We all appear to come from one man who lived about 1,000 years ago. (More on this in a separate message)
Official Rumor #2 - We appear to be the only Europeans with the M378 SNP (Haplogroup Q1b). (Subject of this note.)
Official Rumor #3 - While we may have Khazarian DNA the Khazarians are not the source of our yDNA. The Silk Road,  Samanids, and the Khazarians may have facilitated our link to the the true source of our yDNA, a member of the Hazara or Sindhis tribe of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or India. (Subject of this note.)

They are rumors because I do not have the academic or scientific qualifications to circulate scientific conclusions. As you know, rumors may be true but they may likewise be false. Since I am one of the managers of this discussion group I have the authority to publish rumors official to this site. I am using that prerogative at this time.

(Words appearing in a different color are active Internet links. Click on them for additional information.)

Rumor #2 - We have our own SNP !!! - We appear to be the only Europeans with the M378 SNP.

(Remember that a SNP is an actual mutation in the yDNA molecule that occurs every 5,000 years ago. SNPs are the markers anthropologists love to use to link up all humanity and assign us to different haplogroups. These are not the fast mutating STRs which are strings of repeating junk DNA that are more useful for genealogy because they change relatively quickly. If you still do not know the difference between an SNP and an STR - don't worry about it. Just keep reading.)

This conclusion appears to be consistent with the FamilyTreeDNA.com database. On the other hand this concept may prove to be off base in the future. (Pun intended)

I have gone through every close match with every person in the Jewish_Q group at FamilyTreeDNA.com and we seem unanimously to be northern European Jews (Ashkenazim). Enough of us have been tested so that we can reasonably deduce that  we all have the M378 SNP (Haplogroup Q1b). This is downstream from markers M242 which makes us Q and P36.2 which makes us Q1. It clearly distinguishes us from the Native Americans who are Haplogroup Q but do not have the M378 SNP.

We do share the M378 with about 4% of the members of Hazara and the Sindhis tribes who traditionally have been herdsmen in an area of northern Afganistan, Pakistan, and India. See the yDNA Distribution Patterns in India paper in our Files section published by Sangupta et al in 2005 for the discovery of M378. There is a typographical error in the report that shows M378 downstream from M120.

Next comes Official Rumor #1. It is that we all appear to go back to one man who lived about 1,000  years ago. (I will post a separate message on this.)

Now I make an assumption. Since the SNP is probably thousands of years old and we have only had it for about 1,000 years I assume we got our M378 from a Hazara or Sindhis and that we did not give it to them. (Obviously, there could have been some presently unknown common source.)

This leads to the question: How in the world did a member of the Hazara or Sindhis tribe add his yDNA to our group? The answer jumps right out at you if you follow historical geography.

The answer: The Silk Road!!  Wikipedia has a wonderful article on The Silk Road , click on the link an you will see it.

The Samanids  controlled the Silk Road about the time our common ancestor lived? Following is a quote from the Wikipedia article. (I activated many of the links.)

The Sogdians  dominated the East-West trade after the 4th century CE up to the 8th century CE, with Suyab  and Talas ranking among their main centers in the north. They were the maincaravan merchants of Central Asia. Their commercial interests wereprotected by the resurgent military power of the Gokturks, whose empire has been described as"the joint enterprise of the Ashina  clan and the Soghdians".^[38][37] Their trades with some interruptions continued in the 9th century within the framework of the Uighur Empire ,which until 840 extended across northern Central Asia and obtained fromChina enormous deliveries of silk in exchange for horses. At this timecaravans of Sogdians traveling to Upper Mongolia are mentioned inChinese sources. They played an equally important religious andcultural role. Part of the data about eastern Asia provided by Muslimgeographers of the 10th century actually goes back to Sogdian data ofthe period 750-840 and thus shows the survival of links between eastand west. However, after the end of the Uighur Empire, Sogdian tradewent through a crisis. What mainly issued from Muslim Central Asia was the trade of the Samanids, which resumed the northwestern road leading to the Khazars and theUrals and the northeastern one toward the nearby Turkic tribes.^[37] [Bold Added]

If you read the information at the Samanids link you will see that area of their geographical influence covers the area where the Hazara and Sindhis roamed. For now I nominate the Samanids as being our link.

We seem to have the possibility of a connection at just the right time period. (By the way, the Mongolian invasions and Hun invasions of Europe do not tie in all all with our common ancestor. Attila the Hun  lived 406-453 CE and Genghis Khan  lived 1162-1227 CE. They were either too early or too late and did not carry the M378 marker.)

It does not appear that our Hazara-Sindhis ancestor spread his yDNA into the Khazarian group. It does not mean he did not live among the Khazarians. As of now we do not know the Khazarian yDNA but we do know that a great group of Khazarians who were not Jewish wound up merging into the Hungarian people. Yet it does not appear that any modern Hungarians have SNP M378.

This leads one to conclude that the Khazarians per se were not the source of our yDNA. They may have facilitated our Hazara-Sindhis ancestor's meeting and marrying a nice Jewish girl. He may have converted so they could have been married by a Rabbi. (I hate the idea of a rape or otherwise unwanted pregnancy.)

It could have been that our Hazara-Sindhis ancestor married a Khazarian woman and their only son married a Jewish woman and this couple had several sons.

Those of us with light colored eyes, reddish hair and stocky builds show evidence of Khazarian autosomal DNA  in our nuclei. But we do not carry Khazarian yDNA.

I suggest you visit the Ashina project at Family Tree DNA  run by our own Prof. Krupa and read what he has posted there. I encourage you to join his group as well.

I will be very interested in Professor Krupa's comments on this. I would also love to hear from some top scientist such as Dr. Michael Hammer, who was so excited when he and Bennett Greenspan told Rebekah Canada and me about 18 months ago that they had found a unique SNP for Jewish Qs. I would love to hear Rebekah Canada's comments as well. I am also going to discuss this with Dr. Martin Lewis, professor of the World Historical Geography class I am presently taking at Stanford University Continuing Studies.

Please share your comments, corrections, questions, etc.

Best regards to all and Happy Passover,

Dave Howard
San Jose, California

History

The Sinti arrived in Germany and Austria in the Middle Ages, eventually splitting into two groups: Eftavagarja ("the Seven Caravans") and Estraxarja ("from Austria"). These two groups then expanded, the Eftavagarja into France, where they are called "Manouches", and the Estraxarja into Italy and Eastern Europe, mainly what are now Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary, Romania, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, eventually adopting various regional names.

In Italy they are present mainly in Piedmont region, with some communities in Veneto as well.

 Other theories

Another theory holds that the Roma differ from the Sinti in that the former converted to Islam in the Seljuq Empire, thus acquiring citizenship and escaping slavery. The Sinti, on the other hand, allegedly refused to convert to Islam and thus remained in slavery. ^[3]

Notable Sinti

The Sinti have produced some number of renowned musicians, such as Drafi Deutscher or the jazz guitarists Jimmy Rosenberg and Paulus Schafer. The Sinto H�ns'che Weiss produced a record in Germany in the 1970s in which he sang about the Poraimos (Romani Holocaust) in his own language. Many younger Germans first learned about this part of Holocaust history as a result of this recording. Titi Winterstein and several members of Reinhardt's clan still play traditional and modern "Gypsy jazz" all over Europe. The jazz keyboardist Joe Zawinul was also of Sinte (Sintenghero) descent.

One of the most outstanding Sinti is Johann Trollmann, the boxer-champion of Germany, 1933, who was killed by nazis.

Sara Silverman settled with the Mongolians. They had a big party and good time
was had by all.

If someone does sue Mongolia they should do it in Florida or Texas where the
juries hand out those very large judgments.

There may be a statute of limitations problem.

Dave

----- Original Message -----

From: Dave Howard

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:05 PM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Suing the Mongolians

Sara Silverman settled with the Mongolians. They had a big party and good time was had by all.

If someone does sue Mongolia they should do it in Florida or Texas where the juries hand out those very large judgments.

There may be a statute of limitations problem.

Dave

Can you upload a photo?


--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd Friedman" <lloydon@...> wrote:
>
> As a student in my early years, I was called beady eyes.
> Lloyd.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Dave Howard
>   To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:05 PM
>   Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Suing the Mongolians
>
>
>   Sara Silverman settled with the Mongolians. They had a big party and good
time was had by all.
>
>   If someone does sue Mongolia they should do it in Florida or Texas where the
juries hand out those very large judgments.
>
>   There may be a statute of limitations problem.
>
>   Dave
>

Can we get reparations from the Egyptians for the  slavery years while
we're at it?

(I know it's a fairytale. But maybe Dave could win us some big bucks at
the Hague.)

--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard" <dshoward@...> wrote:
>
> Sara Silverman settled with the Mongolians. They had a big party and
good time was had by all.
>
> If someone does sue Mongolia they should do it in Florida or Texas
where the juries hand out those very large judgments.
>
> There may be a statute of limitations problem.
>
> Dave
>

I have been looking at photos of Sindhi at google images and they do not. But I
may not have looked at enough photos. The right answers is that our guy should
have Asian eyes to account for Laura Silvermand and my Aunt Florence when she
was young as well as our own younger version of Lloyd.


--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, christopher baysinger <cdbaysinger@...>
wrote:
>
>
> It should be nooted that the Hazara have Asian Eyes.
>
>
> Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@...
>
> Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've
never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.
>      Mark Twain
> A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being
free.
>      Kahlil Gibran
>
>
>
> To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
> From: lloydon@...
> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:16:34 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Suing the Mongolians
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As a student in my early years, I was called beady
> eyes.
> Lloyd.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From:
>   Dave Howard
>
>   To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>
>   Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:05
>   PM
>   Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Suing the
>   Mongolians
>
>
>
>   Sara Silverman settled with the Mongolians. They had a big party and good
>   time was had by all.
>
> If someone does sue Mongolia they should do it in
>   Florida or Texas where the juries hand out those very large
>   judgments.
>
> There may be a statute of limitations
>   problem.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live�: Keep your life in sync.
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009
>

We could bring the law suit and then settle with a big party with a good time
being had by all.

Dave



--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "wolinsky@..." <wolinsky@...> wrote:
>
> Can we get reparations from the Egyptians for the  slavery years while
> we're at it?
>
> (I know it's a fairytale. But maybe Dave could win us some big bucks at
> the Hague.)
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard" <dshoward@> wrote:
> >
> > Sara Silverman settled with the Mongolians. They had a big party and
> good time was had by all.
> >
> > If someone does sue Mongolia they should do it in Florida or Texas
> where the juries hand out those very large judgments.
> >
> > There may be a statute of limitations problem.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>

Dear Dave,

I agree on rumor No.1.,No.2. and partially No.3(!).

You have posted the following;

The Sogdians  dominated the East-West trade after the 4th century
CE up to the 8th century CE, with Suyab  and Talas ranking among
their main centers in the north. They were the maincaravan
merchants of Central Asia. Their commercial interests
wereprotected by the resurgent military power of the Gokturks,
whose empire has been described as"the joint enterprise of the
Ashina  clan and the Soghdians".[38][37] Their trades with some
interruptions continued in the 9th century within the framework
of the Uighur Empire ,which until 840 extended across northern
Central Asia and obtained fromChina enormous deliveries of silk
in exchange for horses. At this timecaravans of Sogdians
traveling to Upper Mongolia are mentioned inChinese sources.
They played an equally important religious andcultural role.
Part of the data about eastern Asia provided by
Muslimgeographers of the 10th century actually goes back to
Sogdian data ofthe period 750-840 and thus shows the survival of
links between eastand west. However, after the end of the Uighur
Empire, Sogdian tradewent through a crisis. What mainly issued
from Muslim Central Asia was the trade of the Samanids, which
resumed the northwestern road leading to the Khazars and
theUrals and the northeastern one toward the nearby Turkic
tribes.

This text again underline AND CONFIRM what I have been
researching for some time now and claim.

And that is; THAT WE ARE NOT (K)HAZARS BUT ASHINA IMPERIAL
CLAN-TRIBE!!!!

Eventually, AFTER COLLAPSE OF THE GOKTURK (CELESTIAL TURKS)
EMPIRE, A BRANCH OF ASHINA CLAN MOVED TROUGH SILK ROAD AND
SEIZED RULERSHIP OVER (K)HAZARS. This is historically very well
documented fact.

It also must be known, for those who dont know that yet, that
(K)HAZARS WAS NOT JEWS,OR CONVERTS TO JUDAISM. Khazars was
mostly Muslims , then Christians and some part remained in
Turkic Shamanism.

Only Kaghan (Emperor) and 4000 of imperial nobles (every
individual has been considered as king for itself-khan)ACCEPTED
JUDAISM.

There is no single record of any other conversion to Judaism at
that time.

Our ultimate homeland is common for Hazara population(who
migrated from Mongolian area-also well known fact) and Ashina
Clan of (K)hazars.

Even contemporary arab souces claim that kaghan and his nobility
are different kind (!) of people meaning different race (Khazars
was white european in good part).

"Case" is simple, particulary after M378 finding.

Finnaly, B.Greenspan privately shared his opinion with me and
told me that both R1a1 Ashkenazi Levite Modal Haplotype and Q1b
Ashkenazi single line are most likely of (K)Hazar origin.

But, again I must underline historical difference and separate
path between common (K)Hazars and rulers of (K)Hazars.

Alfred Krupa

p.s.
We dont have a Jewish match who is older than Khazaria.It is sure
that our ancestor lived in Khazaria, and if we originate from a
single man than was a man of a very,very  good social standing
and in material position to support numerous family.Again
meaning nobility.Logic speaks.
---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
     Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
     Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
     http://shopping.tportal.hr