Sleepy group.

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:45 PM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Anything New?

Sleepy group.

Well, as for the Khazars, I am still skeptical, my closes genetic
matches that are discernibly Ashkenazim are 30 or 40 generations away,
around the 11th century. Prior to eastward diaspora, but then again
the jokes about the traveling salesman(Peddler)and the Swiss Maiden
had to originate somewhere, so who knows?

Dear Nadene,

The Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, recently discussed FTDNA
The Ashina/Bulanid Royal Dynasty (Imperial Clan) DNA Project,
where I am administrator.

It has been mainly accepted that this is so far the most founded
proposal. As matter in fact one of academy members analysed /in
tables/ even further our genetic data in haplogroup Q.

And,latest findings of Q1b mutation speaks in that direction, too
/closer biolog. connection with certain population of
west-central Asia/.

I have asked for further information /for better understanding/
from Russia, but I didnt received so far any reply.

Regards,

Alfred


Citiram NADENE GOLDFOOT <goldfoot1@...>:

> Well, since you asked, does anyone lay claim to being related to the
> Gaon of Vilna?  I've heard from two sources in my distant family that
> they are.
>
> Here's something I copied a while back about the history of Lithuania.
>
> "The first Jews to settle in Lithuania in the 11th century came from
> the land of the Khazars, on the lower Volga River, from Crimea on the
> Black Sea and from Bohemia. Originally, the Jews came to the land of
> the Khazars from the Byzantine kingdom, where they had been
> oppressed. The Khazars had welcomed the Jews and later had been
> converted to Judaism. When the Khazars were overrun by the Mongols
> and Russians, the Jews settled in Lithuania, whose rulers, at that
> time, were extremely tolerant."  Of course, it hasn't been proven
> that  Q1    is from Khazaria, but it's a theory,  I guess.   Anymore
> information on Khazars?
> Nadene
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Chris
>  To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:45 PM
>  Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Anything New?
>
>
>  Sleepy group.
>
>
>
>


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Dear members of DNA forum,

For my personal curiosity in July of this year I have contacted
one 75 year old shaman, about what she thinks about my
biological origin. We have exchanges some 50-60 emails.

Her "findings" ,trough shamanic journeys and lucid dreaming was
very, very interesting.

This is not subject of this forum, as this is scientific forum,
and that was occult /that means non-scientific/ research,
therefore anybody who is interesting what "spirits" told to her
about my ancestry (that means that those messages are applicable
on good part of You, if not all), please contact me in private
communication on my address ;mladen.krupa@...

Just a few words about her; Emeliye Ulubayan Eaglewoman MA PhD,
she is from old musician family from South Russia, residing in
London,author of "A Dream Shrouded in Wind -21st century Khazar
Shamanic Voice", and "The Schapiro Legacy", "Applehouse Supreme"
etc.

Regards,

Alfred
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"In the gene pool of Northern Altaians, it is the
second most frequent haplogroup /Q/ after R1a1 (22%); in
Southern Altaians, the proportion of this haplogroup /Q/ is
significantly lower (4%). In earlier studies, haplogroup
Q* with different frequencies was described in most of
Siberian ethnic groups. With low frequency (1 to 17%;
with the average of 5%) this haplogroup is found in
Middle and Central Asia, India, and Siberia [27, 53].
High frequencies of haplogroup Q* are detected among
Native Americans (up to 25%), where it is the second
most frequent haplogroup after its derivative, haplo-
group Q3 [54]. In Siberia, this haplogroup accounts for
the lion’s share (66%) of the Selkup gene pool [27],
while the highest Q* frequency was detected in Kets
(94%). In other parts of the region the Q* frequency
varies in the range from 5 to 15%. It is suggested that
peak frequency of haplogroup Q* in the region of con-
temporary residence of Kets and Selkups does not point
to this region as to the center of origin of this haplo-
group. It is known that presumptive motherland of the
ethnic groups mentioned above is located in South
Siberia, where their ancestors are thought to have pen-
etrated from Central Asia [55, 56]. These data are con-
sistent with the information on the significant participa-
tion of the Samoyedic ethnic groups in the ethnogeny of
Northern Altaians."

From;

ISSN 1022-7954, Russian Journal of Genetics, 2007, Vol. 43, No.
5, pp. 551–562. © Pleiades Publishing, Inc., 2007.
Original Russian Text © V.N. Kharkov, V.A. Stepanov, O.F.
Medvedeva, M.G. Spiridonova, M.I. Voevoda, V.N. Tadinova, V.P.
Puzyrev, 2007, published in Genetika, 2007, Vol. 43,
No. 5, pp. 675–687.

Analysis of Gene Pool Differences between Northern and Southern
Altaians

Inferred from the Data on Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups
V. N. Kharkova, V. A. Stepanova, O. F. Medvedeva, M. G.Piridonova
,M. I. Voevoda,V. N. Tadinova, and V. P. Puzyreva
Institute of Medical Genetics, Tomsk Scientific Center, Russian
Academy of Medical Sciences, Tomsk, 634050 Russia;
fax: (3822)51-37-44; e-mail: vadim.stepanov@...
Institute of Internal Medicine, Russian Academy of Medical
Sciences, Novosibirsk, 630089 Russia; fax: (3832)64-25-16
Institute of Cytology and Genetics, Russian Academy of Sciences,
Novosibirsk, 630090 Russia; fax: (383)333-12-78
Republican Children Hospital, Gorno-Altaisk, 649002 Altai
Republic, Russia; fax: (38822)2-61-86
Received March 6, 2006

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Haplogroup Q subclades in the Jewish population

Q1 was one of seven haplogroups present at >5% in a population of
Ashkenazi Jewish men and represented one of the haplogroups with the
largest difference in frequency between the Ashkenazi Jewish and
Non-Jewish Europeans.  The authors suggest that Q1 is minor founding
haplogroup of the Ashkenazi Jews (Behar et al. 2004).  Low haplotype
diversity of Q1 within this population suggests that there was a
profound bottleneck in the Roma population from which the Ashkenazi
Jews are thought to be derived.  The subclade Q1a6 has been detected
in 15% of Yemeni Jewish men (Shen et al. 2004).


Your thought.

Hi Chris, I don't have the knowledge that the group has re this matter.  I
joined because my brother and cousin are Q1b's and should be in the small
group in the British Isles.  Rebekah suggested that I join in hopes of
picking up some info on this.  It's a really interesting board.  If you have
a suggestion of something I could read to further my knowledge on the Q1b's,
I would appreciate it.  Thanks.  B. J. Marlow


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <cdbaysinger@...>
To: <Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 10:23 PM
Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Roma? From
http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=16


> Haplogroup Q subclades in the Jewish population
>
> Q1 was one of seven haplogroups present at >5% in a population of
> Ashkenazi Jewish men and represented one of the haplogroups with the
> largest difference in frequency between the Ashkenazi Jewish and
> Non-Jewish Europeans.  The authors suggest that Q1 is minor founding
> haplogroup of the Ashkenazi Jews (Behar et al. 2004).  Low haplotype
> diversity of Q1 within this population suggests that there was a
> profound bottleneck in the Roma population from which the Ashkenazi
> Jews are thought to be derived.  The subclade Q1a6 has been detected
> in 15% of Yemeni Jewish men (Shen et al. 2004).
>
>
> Your thought.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Join Our yDNA Group at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 7:23 PM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Roma? From http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=16

Haplogroup Q subclades in the Jewish population

Q1 was one of seven haplogroups present at >5% in a population of
Ashkenazi Jewish men and represented one of the haplogroups with the
largest difference in frequency between the Ashkenazi Jewish and
Non-Jewish Europeans. The authors suggest that Q1 is minor founding
haplogroup of the Ashkenazi Jews (Behar et al. 2004). Low haplotype
diversity of Q1 within this population suggests that there was a
profound bottleneck in the Roma population from which the Ashkenazi
Jews are thought to be derived. The subclade Q1a6 has been detected
in 15% of Yemeni Jewish men (Shen et al. 2004).


Your thought.

I am not sure if the meant the Roma, a Gypsy subgroup or the Italian
name for Rome.

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:04 AM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Roma? From http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=16

I am not sure if the meant the Roma, a Gypsy subgroup or the Italian
name for Rome.

Gypsies also come from Pakistan[Sindhi], where the largest group of
Q1b's live [the Hazara and Sindhis], they got to the Middle East
centuries before they got to Europe[8th century versus the 14th], and
the Gypsy Patois in Southwest Germany is full of Yiddisms.

The text was generalized and a bit apocryphal, I haven't seen it
mentioned elsewhere. Which is why I asked for opinions.

But it might be from the Elamites or other indigenous groups of the
region between the Hindus river and Mesopotamia, it might explain the
Q common presents in the Middle East and Pakistan.

Hi,

There are very few Roma "Gypsy" Qs. The common haplogroup is H.

Of those that are Q, they look nothing like the known Q1bs (Q-M378).
They have not been tested fully but I suspect based on their haplotype
that they are Q1a (Q-MEH2) or Q1a3 (Q-M346).

Regards,
Rebekah

I assumed the problem was at Genebase.com, has there been any tests on
the Dom People {Iranian Gypsies}?

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:38 AM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Roma? From http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=16

Gypsies also come from Pakistan[Sindhi], where the largest group of
Q1b's live [the Hazara and Sindhis], they got to the Middle East
centuries before they got to Europe[8th century versus the 14th], and
the Gypsy Patois in Southwest Germany is full of Yiddisms.

The text was generalized and a bit apocryphal, I haven't seen it
mentioned elsewhere. Which is why I asked for opinions.

But it might be from the Elamites or other indigenous groups of the
region between the Hindus river and Mesopotamia, it might explain the
Q common presents in the Middle East and Pakistan.

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:51 AM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Roma? From http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=16

I assumed the problem was at Genebase.com, has there been any tests on
the Dom People {Iranian Gypsies}?

The Sindhi, more so than the Hazara, are native to Pakistani region of
Sindh. Pakistan was part of India for thousands of years, the
technical term is South Asia, but they tend to use India on online
essays. South Asia is much more genetically diverse than Europe or the
Middle East.

The proposed text lack some knowledge, even general one. I can
rated it as "misleading" , by intention or not.
I do not want to push any presently confessional Jews to look
again on eastern borders of Europe, and Central Asia, but this
,indeed, is our ultimate origin.
Middle East has nothing to do with us, if look on Y-DNA. Maternal
side is different. That is carrier of Levite status into Ashina
Imperial Clan. Very unique and fascinanting combination.
It was told to us that all Q haplogroup subclades represent 0,61%
of population of Europe. How much there is of Q1b? Very small
number, I am sure.
Khazars raided Kurdistan in Iraq, and good parts of
Siria.Therefore. Over there we can find some more or less
isolated samples.
Other Q haplogroups are very, very distant, like those in Yemen.
At last, do not forget strong connection between Sumerans and
Turkish speaking population.
Hazara people in Western/Central Asia as carrier of Q1b is of
interest as they are of Mongolian origin, like Khazars.

Jewish Q1b and R1a1 modal haplotypes are considered,by part of
researchers, as most likely Khazarian Imperial Ruling Class
genetic imprint.

Alfred
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What explain the Sindhi?

Geographicaly close group to Hazara, particulary if we know
ancient road routes. Mixing, intermarriages, trading ...

Citiram Chris <cdbaysinger@...>:

> What explain the Sindhi?
>
>


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Couldn't you invert that, as Q1b variant is not found among Mongolic
peoples. Are there Ashina Remains with Viable DNA?

We are of Mongolic race, but not of Mongolic People. We are
Turkish people. Examples founded in Central and South America,
as well, confirming Siberian origin.
I am not sure is there any Q Deep subclade test performed on 4%
of Q's in Mongolia.
But, this is case of all Q's, except Native Americas; everywhere
a low or moderate distribution.
Q1b is definitely one of the rare haplogroups.

No, there are no old samples of Ashina DNA , like there is no of
Aaron, but still there is Cohanim modal haplotype.



Citiram Chris <cdbaysinger@...>:

> Couldn't you invert that, as Q1b variant is not found among Mongolic
> peoples. Are there Ashina Remains with Viable DNA?
>
>


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The Cohen gene at least has a surname trail. I don't know of any
Ashinas. As for Mongolian race[most anthropologist refer to Clades,
race is a little outdated], Q is found in 4% of Mongolians, the same
percentage for Iranians and Norwegians(who are Q1* which is the
closest sub-clade to Q1b) So I cannot see how you can be so confident
in the Khazari origin theory without more proof.

Chris, there are indeed many proofs. Even more than necessary for
legitimate claim.
I will write short study about it,hopefully in autumn.


Citiram Chris <cdbaysinger@...>:

> The Cohen gene at least has a surname trail. I don't know of any
> Ashinas. As for Mongolian race[most anthropologist refer to Clades,
> race is a little outdated], Q is found in 4% of Mongolians, the same
> percentage for Iranians and Norwegians(who are Q1* which is the
> closest sub-clade to Q1b) So I cannot see how you can be so confident
> in the Khazari origin theory without more proof.
>
>


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I'll wait to read it.

Hi Chris,

Thanks to extensive testing in the project we now know that all of the
Scandinavian Qs are Q1a3 (Q-M346). In fact Q-M346 seems to account for
most of the Qs in Europe....

There are now only a few big exceptions... Your Mennonite Q1bs and the
Jewish Q1bs, and the Székely (Hungarians) who are Q1a2 (Q-M25).

If I were going to flag any one group as a maybe Khazar it would be
the Székely. They are in the right place and the population has other
Asian haplogroups.

Regards,
Rebekah

Rebekah,

Interesting opinion.
As far as I see it now, there was several haplogroups or
haplogroup clades in the proposed Ashina genetic pool. Some
(supported more or less) in contemporary population, and some
probably extint.
We should not forget our Q1b matches in Hungary (as I have it in
my list and with whom I have been in contact).

Alfred


Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...>:

> Hi Chris,
>
> Thanks to extensive testing in the project we now know that all of the
> Scandinavian Qs are Q1a3 (Q-M346). In fact Q-M346 seems to account for
> most of the Qs in Europe....
>
> There are now only a few big exceptions... Your Mennonite Q1bs and the
> Jewish Q1bs, and the Székely (Hungarians) who are Q1a2 (Q-M25).
>
> If I were going to flag any one group as a maybe Khazar it would be
> the Székely. They are in the right place and the population has other
> Asian haplogroups.
>
> Regards,
> Rebekah
>


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I have a question...I got a Perfected Match on the 37 Marker test from
a Documented 8th cousin twice removed on FTDNA.com, what are the
mutation rates, When did Q1a and Q1b split from Q1* and when did Q1*
split from Q* or Q? Any speculations would be interesting.

Hello all

I have a possible scenario/question on the Jewish Q Question:

Is it possible that at some point in history, men of the Q Haplogroup conforming
to the typical sequence we see in this forum, raped Ashkenazi Jewish women? 
Then we are simply the descendents of this scenario.

Cossaks were known to pillage, kill and rape..
Crusaders did the same..

Just a thought.

Question:

Is there a specific genetic sequence like the Cohen Modal Haplotype which
denotes Levites?
The home page of this group has a picture of both Atilla and a Levite...how
would Levites be of the Q Haplogroup, a non-middle eastern group?