Hi cousins:

We need a volunteer to step forward and carry on for Barry. I looked forward to
his monthly updates. I would do it except I haven't the foggest notion of Jewish
history, traditions, or expressions. I, in fact, e-mailed Barry each time one of
you used an expression to find out what it meant! He also translated my
grandparents headstones for me. Thus whomever takes on the job of contacting new
cousins, explaining our group to them, editing and sending out the news and
charts must also carry on small educational bites to us who were raised
Christian.

Sometime, I would also like to see a time line for M242, M378, L214, L215, L245
etc.from one of you who understands the research. We are getting all this new
data without any time frames, which comes first and when. In reviewing the
history of middle Asia I'm surprised no one has mentioned Tamerlane. Also while
Radanites, Khazars, and others have been mentioned there does not seem to be an
explanation for the Selkups and Kets.

Enough of my rambling while watching the snow fall here in the Ozarks. The
weather guys are saying this will be the worst storm since 1912.

Larry Young

Well it's snowing again in the Ozarks (probably a foot so far) and I'm again at
my PC wondering what happened to the message I posted over a week ago (during
our so called blizzard) about needing a volunteer to replace Barry. Did I cross
some, unknown to me, forbidden line? Barry performed a valuable service for all
of us with the monthly update of our clan, connecting with newly found cousins,
and answering questions from people like me.

If I've entered a forbidden zone would the group moderator please let me know
the issue.

Larry Young

Alas, Dear Larry --

I had volunteered to attempt to keep up Barry's newsletter. And unfortunately I
have been doing battle with my own health issues.

I have been in and out of the hospital for most of the months of December and
January. I am working hard to catch up with my law practice and get things in
shape to be gone for several weeks. My doctors have scheduled a surgical
procedure for me on March 14th which is supposed to be the final cure all. This
will put me out of action until April some time.

Barry's family did provide me with the last draft he was working on as well as
his mailing list. Michael Palmer has agreed to play the role he has in the past.

If someone else wants to take over let me know. Otherwise, I will be delayed for
a few more weeks.

Regards,

Dave Howard

Larry,

Not sure why, but I have < not >  been notified by FTDNA of any Q matches since
Barry passed away.

Michael Palmer

----- Original Message -----

From: laryoung

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 9:43 AM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Barry Zwich's Monthly Newsletter

 

Hi cousins:

We need a volunteer to step forward and carry on for Barry. I looked forward to his monthly updates. I would do it except I haven't the foggest notion of Jewish history, traditions, or expressions. I, in fact, e-mailed Barry each time one of you used an expression to find out what it meant! He also translated my grandparents headstones for me. Thus whomever takes on the job of contacting new cousins, explaining our group to them, editing and sending out the news and charts must also carry on small educational bites to us who were raised Christian.

Sometime, I would also like to see a time line for M242, M378, L214, L215, L245 etc.from one of you who understands the research. We are getting all this new data without any time frames, which comes first and when. In reviewing the history of middle Asia I'm surprised no one has mentioned Tamerlane. Also while Radanites, Khazars, and others have been mentioned there does not seem to be an explanation for the Selkups and Kets.

Enough of my rambling while watching the snow fall here in the Ozarks. The weather guys are saying this will be the worst storm since 1912.

Larry Young

----- Original Message -----

From: Dave

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 10:57 PM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Barry Zwick replacement

 

Alas, Dear Larry --

I had volunteered to attempt to keep up Barry's newsletter. And unfortunately I have been doing battle with my own health issues.

I have been in and out of the hospital for most of the months of December and January. I am working hard to catch up with my law practice and get things in shape to be gone for several weeks. My doctors have scheduled a surgical procedure for me on March 14th which is supposed to be the final cure all. This will put me out of action until April some time.

Barry's family did provide me with the last draft he was working on as well as his mailing list. Michael Palmer has agreed to play the role he has in the past.

If someone else wants to take over let me know. Otherwise, I will be delayed for a few more weeks.

Regards,

Dave Howard

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device from U.S. Cellular

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device from U.S. Cellular

Dave, Nadene and Michael:

Thank you for your responses. I now feel our unique group will continue to learn
about future cousins. Our stories are truly amazing. Dave good luck with your
upcoming surgery. Nadene, I also had a mitral valve repair back in 2004, makes
me wonder about our genes and are we more similar than we realize. Michael, I
really appreciate your analysis of our group; as a retired engineer I keep
looking for our numbers to increase over the doctors and lawyers. Ha!

Nadene, when I don't understand some comment from a cousin I'll take advantage
of your offer to explain it to me.

Larry Young

I'm awfully sorry about your health setback, Dave -- take care of yourself.

A.J.

Michael,

I took a look and there are some new members of our Q group.

I believe you and Barry have been tracking the exact matches at the 12
marker level. We are now up to 124.

I believe there are more Ashkenazi-Q's than just our 12 marker exact
matches. We may want to expand our group.

A while back I went through the close matches to our close matches and
invited those people to participate in our Jewish_Q project. What is
interesting is that while many of the people who have joined our
Jewish_Q project are in Y-DNA Haplogroup Q many are not.

Barry kept track of us as human beings both individually and
collectively.

I will attempt to get something out in the near future.

Dave

Dave,
The process of preparing the reports started with Barry writing to everyone who,
as indicated by FTDNA,  was a 12Y-DNA match or near match for him.   Only about
half of them answered, and those are the people in our reports.  Some of the new
members would also come from other sources that he found or was notified about
(Rebekah for example was helpful).   I'm sure you will find or know of others
that could be included, especially the Ashkenazi and even Sephardic Jews when
you feel they should be included.
Michael

Hi David,
I just got this by googling SNP L245.  I guess I haven't given this group my new
email address of goldfoot1@...
I wanted to tell you that I just ordered the L 245 and the L272 SNP test for my
brother, David Goldfoot after reading Rebekah's email about new SNPs for another
group.  I check the tree and found that these were recommended for our
particular haplogroup.    Your report below makes it much easier to understand. 
I hope the results will tell some interesting things.
Nadene Goldfoot

--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <dshoward@...> wrote:
>
> I recently attended the Group Administrators' Conference in Houston
> Texas put on by Family Tree DNA. Thanks to the good work of Rebekah
> Canada, Alissandro Biondo and others, the Y-chromosome Tree has been
> updated. Most of us are now Q1b1*. There are new tests in process right
> now which may show we are Q1b1a or Q1b1b.
>
> If you go to Rebekah's site at Family Tree DNA you can see how the new
> SNPs have changed the chart. What she does not show is the newly
> published tree which does recognize some of her work. What is most
> significant for all of us is that we all probably have the L245 SNP.
>
> Click on this link to see Rebekah's New Tree.
> <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_Q/default.aspx>
>
> When we all first started we were told we were in Haplogroup Q meaning
> that we had the M242 SNP generic to all Haplogroup Q members. It is
> theorized that this mutation took place about 20,000 years ago in
> Siberia. Then they found the P36.2 SNP which showed we branched off from
> the Siberian group more than 12,000 years ago when a group of Q's
> migrated to the Western Hemisphere.
>
> More recently they found we all had M378 SNP which is found among a
> small percentage of the Hazara tribe in India and a small percentage of
> the Sindhi tribe of Pakistan. How and when this link to a group of
> Ashkenazi Jewish people took place has been the subject of some
> interesting and confusing debates in this chat room.
>
> But the L245 SNP is downstream from the M378. Downstream means evolved
> later in time. This makes us even more unique. Two of our members have
> SNPs downstream from the L245. One is the L272 and the other is the
> L315.
> These more recent mutations may have evolved  within a few hundred years
> in the Mediterranean area.
>
> Since many of you have consented to have your samples tested for these
> newly discovered SNPs we will soon know so much more about this.
>
> Family Tree DNA posts its version of the draft y-chromosome tree at the
> following link. But Rebekah's is more up-to-date and gives much more
> information - the link above.
>
> Draft Y-Tree at FTDNA Site
> <http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=31182976>
>
> I personally believe these new discoveries will put to rest any notion
> that the Khazars or the mythical Ashina were the source of our Qness.
>
> As more and more downstream SNPs are discovered we may eventually find
> there is one unique to Ashkenazi Jewish Qs. I will wait for Rebekah and
> Alissandro to announce this.
>
> I would like to personally express my appreciation to Rebekah,
> Alissandro and the others who are doing this work on our behalf.
>
> If you do not understand what I am talking about post a response. If you
> do understand what I am talking about and know more than me please post
> a response.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave Howard
>

Hi everyone,

A few months ago I started doing a small documentary film project about my
family history and our relatively unusual last name. By happenstance, four
generations of Waletzkys have all lived within seven blocks of my current
apartment, which is down the street from the synagogue where my (paternal)
grandfather was bar mitzvahed and married my grandmother. We've also been
Yiddish speakers and deeply involved in preserving Yiddish language and
secular-Jewish culture here in New York since my great-grandfather came here
from Mezritch (Miedzyrzec Podlaski, Poland) at the turn of the last century.

When 23andme offered their promotional discount, I could finally afford to have
some genetic testing done, and while I was waiting for my results I did plenty
of the same research about Jewish genetics I suspect many of the members of this
group have done themselves.

So when I tested Q1b, it raised all sorts of questions that I'd like to ask the
group; anything discussed here would be on background and I wouldn't quote
anyone without their permission in any finished product, as I think this might
be expanded into a feature-length documentary.

The most obvious question is whether you think Q1b does in fact imply Khazarian
ancestry. I've wondered about that ever since I found a copy of Arthur
Koestler's book in my synagogue's library when I was 8 and read it
cover-to-cover. Reading the recent messages on this board seems to reflect
consensus away from a Khazarian hypothesis, but there haven't been any concrete
theories set forth as far as I know.

From my own analysis, I'd say that Khazaria is the most likely source, given the
paucity of other concrete theories. It's important to note that the Most Recent
Common Ancestor is not necessarily the same thing as the first Jewish Q1b. Given
the size and breadth of the sample, I think that assuming a single common
ancestor as the introduction to the Jewish population doesn't make as much sense
for this clade as it does for, say, the distinctively Jewish clades of I2b or N,
which are much smaller.

Given bottlenecks and genetic drift, reaching the proportion of Q1b to the rest
of the Jewish population and in many major groups (Ashkenazi, Anatolian,
Moroccan, Iraqi, etc.) would be relatively difficult for a single ancestor in
the last 800 years. I estimate Q as 3.97% of the population, averaging the
proportions reported by Shen, Semino, Hammer, Nebel, Behar and others.

If Q1b were a founding Mediterranean lineage, I think we would see it better
represented among non-Jewish Italian and Palestinian lineages where it is
absent. If it were connected to Sephardic Jews, we would see it among non-Jewish
or traditionally converso families in Spain, Portugal, Mexico/New Mexico and
Cabo Verde, even if genetic drift had reduced its presence among Sephardim to
Moroccans exclusively. (Compare this to the presence of G2c in southwestern
Hispanic populations who are rediscovering their Jewish roots.)

I think the hypothesis that fits the evidence best is for a small number of very
closely related founders, introduced to the Jewish gene pool several generations
before the accepted TMRCA of 800 years ago. I also think, having looked at
countless records from JRI-Poland and Jewishgen.org, that 23 years per
generation might represent a mean average, but it may not be a canonical guide
when it comes to Y-DNA transmission (as opposed to mtDNA transmission). I've
seen records of men as old as 54 having children to younger wives. Most women
since 1830 seem to have been married around 19-23, but the ages of the men range
upward much more widely, and couples tended to have many children over several
years, up to half of whom died in infancy. As time goes on, the average age per
generation also seems to increase among any population.

That's where I was in my research about Q when I got my results a few weeks ago.
Since then I've read the debates here and investigated the Ashina dynasty theory
a little more closely. After dismissing it originally, I've come to the
conclusion that it is a definite probability. As a long-time proposition better,
I think the odds are better-than-even but I wouldn't put any specific numbers on
the line.

The Ashina had a discernable reason to keep a documented Altaic bloodline
vibrant yet restricted from the general Gokturk/Khazar population, are
documented to have joined the Jewish people about 1300 years ago in a relatively
small yet significant number, four thousand nobles, comparable to the 500
families of the Ashina recorded in Chinese texts. Now, I don't attribute any
mythical importance to the Ashina bloodline or consider ancient manuscripts
gospel; history is usually written by the victors and often unreliable. I'm a
bigger fan of the non-mythological claims in these texts that can be
corroborated with other contemporary sources and scientific evidence.

Q1b seems to have distributions focused in the Ukraine, Hungary and Lithuania,
all recorded to have had a Khazar influx in Jewish sources. The tradition of
being a Levite (which I actually rediscovered in the family, who had maintained
we were Israel my whole lifetime) that seems particular to Q1b can't be a
coincidence, although the connection of this fact to Khazarian origin is
dubious. The near absence of Q1b outside of the Jewish population may be a
result of extermination of the Ashina dynasty for political reasons; most of the
line of the eastern khaganate is noted to have been murdered by their successors
in those confederations. The last documented Ashinas all push out west, just as
Q1b has an obvious westward pattern of expansion before the TMRCA of our
Ashkenazi sub-clade. The Silk Road and the Radhanites both went through the
Jewish Khazar kingdom, further compounding origin theories.

Again, I think the odds are better-than-even, but I think that in order to make
a definitive claim one way or the other we'd need a testable hypothesis and, I
think, stronger alternate scenarios to test against.

If anyone has thoughts and hopefully critiques, reply and/or let me know if you
might want to be interviewed on film? We could easily use Skype or other video
chat programs.

Also, as I've been reading the messages here, I'd like to offer my assistance to
anyone who has questions about Jewish languages, culture or religion who can't
find answers elsewhere. I'm a native Yiddish speaker and have a (degraded, at
this point) understanding of Hebrew and some Aramaic. Although I'm not a
practicing Jew, I did attend an Orthodox Yeshiva in Brooklyn and am well-versed
in Jewish history and folklore.

By the way, I am also abviously looking for anyone with a family connection to
the name Waletzky or Walecki or coming from the towns of Mezritch or Biala
Podlaska (Biale). One of the major questions I'm trying to answer for myself is
whether Waletzky really means "from Walcz," a town between Sczeczin and Pila in
Pomerania, as the literal translation of the Polish would suggest. I would be
very interested in comparing genes with any Wolinsky Q1bs!

Thanks,
D. J. Waletzky

P. S. Please contact me by e-mail if you would like to see a link to the
7-minute trailer I put together for the family this Passover. It contains some
NSFW language and a terrible haircut on my part for several minutes.

----- Original Message -----

From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 2:39 AM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Digest Number 281

Ashkenazi Jewish - yDNA Haplogroup Q1b

Messages In This Digest (2 Messages)

1a.

Re: New Developments - Many Q1b's are now Q1b1* or more From: goldfootn

2.

Change:  New Email Address From: NADENE GOLDFOOT

View All Topics | Create New Topic

Messages

1a.

Re: New Developments - Many Q1b's are now Q1b1* or more

Posted by: "goldfootn" goldfoot1@...   goldfootn

Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:13 pm (PDT)

Hi David,
I just got this by googling SNP L245. I guess I haven't given this group my new email address of goldfoot1@frontier.com
I wanted to tell you that I just ordered the L 245 and the L272 SNP test for my brother, David Goldfoot after reading Rebekah's email about new SNPs for another group. I check the tree and found that these were recommended for our particular haplogroup. Your report below makes it much easier to understand. I hope the results will tell some interesting things.
Nadene Goldfoot

--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <dshoward@...> wrote:
>
> I recently attended the Group Administrators' Conference in Houston
> Texas put on by Family Tree DNA. Thanks to the good work of Rebekah
> Canada, Alissandro Biondo and others, the Y-chromosome Tree has been
> updated. Most of us are now Q1b1*. There are new tests in process right
> now which may show we are Q1b1a or Q1b1b.
>
> If you go to Rebekah's site at Family Tree DNA you can see how the new
> SNPs have changed the chart. What she does not show is the newly
> published tree which does recognize some of her work. What is most
> significant for all of us is that we all probably have the L245 SNP.
>
> Click on this link to see Rebekah's New Tree.
> <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_Q/default.aspx>
>
> When we all first started we were told we were in Haplogroup Q meaning
> that we had the M242 SNP generic to all Haplogroup Q members. It is
> theorized that this mutation took place about 20,000 years ago in
> Siberia. Then they found the P36.2 SNP which showed we branched off from
> the Siberian group more than 12,000 years ago when a group of Q's
> migrated to the Western Hemisphere.
>
> More recently they found we all had M378 SNP which is found among a
> small percentage of the Hazara tribe in India and a small percentage of
> the Sindhi tribe of Pakistan. How and when this link to a group of
> Ashkenazi Jewish people took place has been the subject of some
> interesting and confusing debates in this chat room.
>
> But the L245 SNP is downstream from the M378. Downstream means evolved
> later in time. This makes us even more unique. Two of our members have
> SNPs downstream from the L245. One is the L272 and the other is the
> L315.
> These more recent mutations may have evolved within a few hundred years
> in the Mediterranean area.
>
> Since many of you have consented to have your samples tested for these
> newly discovered SNPs we will soon know so much more about this.
>
> Family Tree DNA posts its version of the draft y-chromosome tree at the
> following link. But Rebekah's is more up-to-date and gives much more
> information - the link above.
>
> Draft Y-Tree at FTDNA Site
> <http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=31182976>
>
> I personally believe these new discoveries will put to rest any notion
> that the Khazars or the mythical Ashina were the source of our Qness.
>
> As more and more downstream SNPs are discovered we may eventually find
> there is one unique to Ashkenazi Jewish Qs. I will wait for Rebekah and
> Alissandro to announce this.
>
> I would like to personally express my appreciation to Rebekah,
> Alissandro and the others who are doing this work on our behalf.
>
> If you do not understand what I am talking about post a response. If you
> do understand what I am talking about and know more than me please post
> a response.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave Howard
>

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Messages in this topic (9)

2.

Change:  New Email Address

Posted by: "NADENE GOLDFOOT" goldfoot1@...   goldfootn

Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:36 pm (PDT)

Please see that my email address is now: Nadene Goldfoot:
goldfoot1@frontier.com

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Messages in this topic (1)

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Rebekah,
Please feel free to use my results in your study as well.

Thank you

Charles Harris

--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Joseph" <bjeffreyjoseph@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Rebekah - OK to use a sample of my DNA - will also send some green stuff
> to help out with the costs.
>
>
>
> Look forward to hearing any results.
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
>
> Jeff Joseph
>
>
>
> From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Dave
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:59 PM
> To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] To Help Rebekah - Consent and/or help her financially
>
>
>
>
>
> Rebekah needs your consent to use your DNA sample. She has people who
> contribute to her project. Additionally, she pays for many of the tests
> herself.
>
> She is a full time graduate student and at the same time she probably spends
> 80 hours a week as a volunteer genetic genealogist. I hate it to think she
> also pays for tests out of her own money for us.
>
> You do not have to contribute to her fund. However, anyone who would like to
> help her out Click Here.
> <http://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx?g=Q-YDNA>
> Give her $24 if you want to help a little. Give her more if you can afford
> it.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Judy Papian <jpapian@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Dave,
> >
> > "Since many of you have consented to have your samples tested for these
> > newly discovered SNPs we will soon know so much more about this."
> >
> > Does this further testing cost us, and how to consent for it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Judy Papian for William Papian
> >
>

DJ,

At one time I bought the Khazar theory but it makes no sense to me now. The
Ashinas by way of the Khazars is an even greater stretch.

Who knows what the haplotype of the Ashinas might have been. Assuming it was Q
our downstream markers apparently did not develop in their part of the world.

With respect to the Khazars their y-dna did not disappear. They intermixed with
other central Europeans probably mostly with the Hungarians. Yet there are
hardly any Q1b1* non-Jewish central Europeans. Also, it appears that most
northern European Jewish Q1b1* shared a common ancestor far after the dispersion
of the Khazars.

New downstream markers have been found for most of us and we are now Q1b1*.
These later markers may have developed in the Mediterranean area fairly
recently. (This is sheer speculation on my part.)

Our friend Professor Freddy Krupa does believe the Ashina-Khazar theory with
almost religious zeal. You can find him on Facebook and as the leader of the
Ashina group at Family Tree DNA. He is a nice human being and I like him.

This has been debated and discussed ad nauseam in earlier messages on this
message board.

Kind regards,

Dave Howard



--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "zkynyc" <genetics@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> A few months ago I started doing a small documentary film project about my
family history and our relatively unusual last name. By happenstance, four
generations of Waletzkys have all lived within seven blocks of my current
apartment, which is down the street from the synagogue where my (paternal)
grandfather was bar mitzvahed and married my grandmother. We've also been
Yiddish speakers and deeply involved in preserving Yiddish language and
secular-Jewish culture here in New York since my great-grandfather came here
from Mezritch (Miedzyrzec Podlaski, Poland) at the turn of the last century.
>
> When 23andme offered their promotional discount, I could finally afford to
have some genetic testing done, and while I was waiting for my results I did
plenty of the same research about Jewish genetics I suspect many of the members
of this group have done themselves.
>
> So when I tested Q1b, it raised all sorts of questions that I'd like to ask
the group; anything discussed here would be on background and I wouldn't quote
anyone without their permission in any finished product, as I think this might
be expanded into a feature-length documentary.
>
> The most obvious question is whether you think Q1b does in fact imply
Khazarian ancestry. I've wondered about that ever since I found a copy of Arthur
Koestler's book in my synagogue's library when I was 8 and read it
cover-to-cover. Reading the recent messages on this board seems to reflect
consensus away from a Khazarian hypothesis, but there haven't been any concrete
theories set forth as far as I know.
>
> From my own analysis, I'd say that Khazaria is the most likely source, given
the paucity of other concrete theories. It's important to note that the Most
Recent Common Ancestor is not necessarily the same thing as the first Jewish
Q1b. Given the size and breadth of the sample, I think that assuming a single
common ancestor as the introduction to the Jewish population doesn't make as
much sense for this clade as it does for, say, the distinctively Jewish clades
of I2b or N, which are much smaller.
>
> Given bottlenecks and genetic drift, reaching the proportion of Q1b to the
rest of the Jewish population and in many major groups (Ashkenazi, Anatolian,
Moroccan, Iraqi, etc.) would be relatively difficult for a single ancestor in
the last 800 years. I estimate Q as 3.97% of the population, averaging the
proportions reported by Shen, Semino, Hammer, Nebel, Behar and others.
>
> If Q1b were a founding Mediterranean lineage, I think we would see it better
represented among non-Jewish Italian and Palestinian lineages where it is
absent. If it were connected to Sephardic Jews, we would see it among non-Jewish
or traditionally converso families in Spain, Portugal, Mexico/New Mexico and
Cabo Verde, even if genetic drift had reduced its presence among Sephardim to
Moroccans exclusively. (Compare this to the presence of G2c in southwestern
Hispanic populations who are rediscovering their Jewish roots.)
>
> I think the hypothesis that fits the evidence best is for a small number of
very closely related founders, introduced to the Jewish gene pool several
generations before the accepted TMRCA of 800 years ago. I also think, having
looked at countless records from JRI-Poland and Jewishgen.org, that 23 years per
generation might represent a mean average, but it may not be a canonical guide
when it comes to Y-DNA transmission (as opposed to mtDNA transmission). I've
seen records of men as old as 54 having children to younger wives. Most women
since 1830 seem to have been married around 19-23, but the ages of the men range
upward much more widely, and couples tended to have many children over several
years, up to half of whom died in infancy. As time goes on, the average age per
generation also seems to increase among any population.
>
> That's where I was in my research about Q when I got my results a few weeks
ago. Since then I've read the debates here and investigated the Ashina dynasty
theory a little more closely. After dismissing it originally, I've come to the
conclusion that it is a definite probability. As a long-time proposition better,
I think the odds are better-than-even but I wouldn't put any specific numbers on
the line.
>
> The Ashina had a discernable reason to keep a documented Altaic bloodline
vibrant yet restricted from the general Gokturk/Khazar population, are
documented to have joined the Jewish people about 1300 years ago in a relatively
small yet significant number, four thousand nobles, comparable to the 500
families of the Ashina recorded in Chinese texts. Now, I don't attribute any
mythical importance to the Ashina bloodline or consider ancient manuscripts
gospel; history is usually written by the victors and often unreliable. I'm a
bigger fan of the non-mythological claims in these texts that can be
corroborated with other contemporary sources and scientific evidence.
>
> Q1b seems to have distributions focused in the Ukraine, Hungary and Lithuania,
all recorded to have had a Khazar influx in Jewish sources. The tradition of
being a Levite (which I actually rediscovered in the family, who had maintained
we were Israel my whole lifetime) that seems particular to Q1b can't be a
coincidence, although the connection of this fact to Khazarian origin is
dubious. The near absence of Q1b outside of the Jewish population may be a
result of extermination of the Ashina dynasty for political reasons; most of the
line of the eastern khaganate is noted to have been murdered by their successors
in those confederations. The last documented Ashinas all push out west, just as
Q1b has an obvious westward pattern of expansion before the TMRCA of our
Ashkenazi sub-clade. The Silk Road and the Radhanites both went through the
Jewish Khazar kingdom, further compounding origin theories.
>
> Again, I think the odds are better-than-even, but I think that in order to
make a definitive claim one way or the other we'd need a testable hypothesis
and, I think, stronger alternate scenarios to test against.
>
> If anyone has thoughts and hopefully critiques, reply and/or let me know if
you might want to be interviewed on film? We could easily use Skype or other
video chat programs.
>
> Also, as I've been reading the messages here, I'd like to offer my assistance
to anyone who has questions about Jewish languages, culture or religion who
can't find answers elsewhere. I'm a native Yiddish speaker and have a (degraded,
at this point) understanding of Hebrew and some Aramaic. Although I'm not a
practicing Jew, I did attend an Orthodox Yeshiva in Brooklyn and am well-versed
in Jewish history and folklore.
>
> By the way, I am also abviously looking for anyone with a family connection to
the name Waletzky or Walecki or coming from the towns of Mezritch or Biala
Podlaska (Biale). One of the major questions I'm trying to answer for myself is
whether Waletzky really means "from Walcz," a town between Sczeczin and Pila in
Pomerania, as the literal translation of the Polish would suggest. I would be
very interested in comparing genes with any Wolinsky Q1bs!
>
> Thanks,
> D. J. Waletzky
>
> P. S. Please contact me by e-mail if you would like to see a link to the
7-minute trailer I put together for the family this Passover. It contains some
NSFW language and a terrible haircut on my part for several minutes.
>

----- Original Message -----

From: zkynyc

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 8:10 AM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Doing a genetic genealogy project

 

Hi everyone,

A few months ago I started doing a small documentary film project about my family history and our relatively unusual last name. By happenstance, four generations of Waletzkys have all lived within seven blocks of my current apartment, which is down the street from the synagogue where my (paternal) grandfather was bar mitzvahed and married my grandmother. We've also been Yiddish speakers and deeply involved in preserving Yiddish language and secular-Jewish culture here in New York since my great-grandfather came here from Mezritch (Miedzyrzec Podlaski, Poland) at the turn of the last century.

When 23andme offered their promotional discount, I could finally afford to have some genetic testing done, and while I was waiting for my results I did plenty of the same research about Jewish genetics I suspect many of the members of this group have done themselves.

So when I tested Q1b, it raised all sorts of questions that I'd like to ask the group; anything discussed here would be on background and I wouldn't quote anyone without their permission in any finished product, as I think this might be expanded into a feature-length documentary.

The most obvious question is whether you think Q1b does in fact imply Khazarian ancestry. I've wondered about that ever since I found a copy of Arthur Koestler's book in my synagogue's library when I was 8 and read it cover-to-cover. Reading the recent messages on this board seems to reflect consensus away from a Khazarian hypothesis, but there haven't been any concrete theories set forth as far as I know.

From my own analysis, I'd say that Khazaria is the most likely source, given the paucity of other concrete theories. It's important to note that the Most Recent Common Ancestor is not necessarily the same thing as the first Jewish Q1b. Given the size and breadth of the sample, I think that assuming a single common ancestor as the introduction to the Jewish population doesn't make as much sense for this clade as it does for, say, the distinctively Jewish clades of I2b or N, which are much smaller.

Given bottlenecks and genetic drift, reaching the proportion of Q1b to the rest of the Jewish population and in many major groups (Ashkenazi, Anatolian, Moroccan, Iraqi, etc.) would be relatively difficult for a single ancestor in the last 800 years. I estimate Q as 3.97% of the population, averaging the proportions reported by Shen, Semino, Hammer, Nebel, Behar and others.

If Q1b were a founding Mediterranean lineage, I think we would see it better represented among non-Jewish Italian and Palestinian lineages where it is absent. If it were connected to Sephardic Jews, we would see it among non-Jewish or traditionally converso families in Spain, Portugal, Mexico/New Mexico and Cabo Verde, even if genetic drift had reduced its presence among Sephardim to Moroccans exclusively. (Compare this to the presence of G2c in southwestern Hispanic populations who are rediscovering their Jewish roots.)

I think the hypothesis that fits the evidence best is for a small number of very closely related founders, introduced to the Jewish gene pool several generations before the accepted TMRCA of 800 years ago. I also think, having looked at countless records from JRI-Poland and Jewishgen.org, that 23 years per generation might represent a mean average, but it may not be a canonical guide when it comes to Y-DNA transmission (as opposed to mtDNA transmission). I've seen records of men as old as 54 having children to younger wives. Most women since 1830 seem to have been married around 19-23, but the ages of the men range upward much more widely, and couples tended to have many children over several years, up to half of whom died in infancy. As time goes on, the average age per generation also seems to increase among any population.

That's where I was in my research about Q when I got my results a few weeks ago. Since then I've read the debates here and investigated the Ashina dynasty theory a little more closely. After dismissing it originally, I've come to the conclusion that it is a definite probability. As a long-time proposition better, I think the odds are better-than-even but I wouldn't put any specific numbers on the line.

The Ashina had a discernable reason to keep a documented Altaic bloodline vibrant yet restricted from the general Gokturk/Khazar population, are documented to have joined the Jewish people about 1300 years ago in a relatively small yet significant number, four thousand nobles, comparable to the 500 families of the Ashina recorded in Chinese texts. Now, I don't attribute any mythical importance to the Ashina bloodline or consider ancient manuscripts gospel; history is usually written by the victors and often unreliable. I'm a bigger fan of the non-mythological claims in these texts that can be corroborated with other contemporary sources and scientific evidence.

Q1b seems to have distributions focused in the Ukraine, Hungary and Lithuania, all recorded to have had a Khazar influx in Jewish sources. The tradition of being a Levite (which I actually rediscovered in the family, who had maintained we were Israel my whole lifetime) that seems particular to Q1b can't be a coincidence, although the connection of this fact to Khazarian origin is dubious. The near absence of Q1b outside of the Jewish population may be a result of extermination of the Ashina dynasty for political reasons; most of the line of the eastern khaganate is noted to have been murdered by their successors in those confederations. The last documented Ashinas all push out west, just as Q1b has an obvious westward pattern of expansion before the TMRCA of our Ashkenazi sub-clade. The Silk Road and the Radhanites both went through the Jewish Khazar kingdom, further compounding origin theories.

Again, I think the odds are better-than-even, but I think that in order to make a definitive claim one way or the other we'd need a testable hypothesis and, I think, stronger alternate scenarios to test against.

If anyone has thoughts and hopefully critiques, reply and/or let me know if you might want to be interviewed on film? We could easily use Skype or other video chat programs.

Also, as I've been reading the messages here, I'd like to offer my assistance to anyone who has questions about Jewish languages, culture or religion who can't find answers elsewhere. I'm a native Yiddish speaker and have a (degraded, at this point) understanding of Hebrew and some Aramaic. Although I'm not a practicing Jew, I did attend an Orthodox Yeshiva in Brooklyn and am well-versed in Jewish history and folklore.

By the way, I am also abviously looking for anyone with a family connection to the name Waletzky or Walecki or coming from the towns of Mezritch or Biala Podlaska (Biale). One of the major questions I'm trying to answer for myself is whether Waletzky really means "from Walcz," a town between Sczeczin and Pila in Pomerania, as the literal translation of the Polish would suggest. I would be very interested in comparing genes with any Wolinsky Q1bs!

Thanks,
D. J. Waletzky

P. S. Please contact me by e-mail if you would like to see a link to the 7-minute trailer I put together for the family this Passover. It contains some NSFW language and a terrible haircut on my part for several minutes.

----- Original Message -----

From: Lisa

To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 7:23 PM

Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Country of 'origin'

 

What is the data like for where we all come from in the old country? I have two unrelated relatives (one maternal, one paternal) with the Q1b designation. One was from Austria. The other I thought to be from Siberia (which would have made sense with Q1b), but as it turns out, the family was from a shtetl on the border of Russia and Poland, but of Germanic Jewish descent. So we have Austria and Germany - not quite what I had expected. Anybody?
Thanks,
~L

Hi Lois,
There are three types of Jewish divisions; Ashkenazi, Sephardi and the Mizrachi
which are Jewish people from North Africa and the Middle East.
http://www.jewfaq.org/ashkseph.htm.  Was your father Q1b?  I know that Sephardi
were the first to come to the USA.  I believe the synagogue in Rhode Island was
the first to be built.  That would have been after 1620, no doubt.
Nadene Goldfoot

--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "lois harford" <lolonurse@...> wrote:
>
> Ashkenazi Jewish - yDNA Haplogroup Q1bHi - I hope I'm doing this correctly. I
subscribed a while ago, after having my dad tested as part of my research of our
family tree, and he turned out to be haplogroup Q. But I haven't been able to
participate, or even devote much attention, much to my chagrin. Anyway, for
whatever reason, I clicked on tonight, and see that there is much progress in
the typing - and I wonder if you still need people to volunteer samples for this
newer typing? My dad would be happy to do this, and since he will be 87 in June,
and is the only male left in the family, and the only Q, I guess it would be a
good idea.
>
> Oh - and by the way, his family (Romanian, but in the New World, anecdotally,
since late 1500's or early 1600's) always said they were neither Ashkenazi nor
Sephardic, but "something else...
> Thanks for any guidance -
> Lois Harford (nee Greenberg)
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>   To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 2:39 AM
>   Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Digest Number 281
>
>
>   Ashkenazi Jewish - yDNA Haplogroup Q1b
>   Messages In This Digest (2 Messages)
>     1a. Re: New Developments - Many Q1b's are now Q1b1* or more From:
goldfootn
>     2. Change:  New Email Address From: NADENE GOLDFOOT
>   View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages
>     1a. Re: New Developments - Many Q1b's are now Q1b1* or more
>     Posted by: "goldfootn" goldfoot1@...   goldfootn
>     Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:13 pm (PDT)
>
>
>     Hi David,
>     I just got this by googling SNP L245. I guess I haven't given this group
my new email address of goldfoot1@...
>     I wanted to tell you that I just ordered the L 245 and the L272 SNP test
for my brother, David Goldfoot after reading Rebekah's email about new SNPs for
another group. I check the tree and found that these were recommended for our
particular haplogroup. Your report below makes it much easier to understand. I
hope the results will tell some interesting things.
>     Nadene Goldfoot
>
>     --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <dshoward@> wrote:
>     >
>     > I recently attended the Group Administrators' Conference in Houston
>     > Texas put on by Family Tree DNA. Thanks to the good work of Rebekah
>     > Canada, Alissandro Biondo and others, the Y-chromosome Tree has been
>     > updated. Most of us are now Q1b1*. There are new tests in process right
>     > now which may show we are Q1b1a or Q1b1b.
>     >
>     > If you go to Rebekah's site at Family Tree DNA you can see how the new
>     > SNPs have changed the chart. What she does not show is the newly
>     > published tree which does recognize some of her work. What is most
>     > significant for all of us is that we all probably have the L245 SNP.
>     >
>     > Click on this link to see Rebekah's New Tree.
>     > <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_Q/default.aspx>
>     >
>     > When we all first started we were told we were in Haplogroup Q meaning
>     > that we had the M242 SNP generic to all Haplogroup Q members. It is
>     > theorized that this mutation took place about 20,000 years ago in
>     > Siberia. Then they found the P36.2 SNP which showed we branched off from
>     > the Siberian group more than 12,000 years ago when a group of Q's
>     > migrated to the Western Hemisphere.
>     >
>     > More recently they found we all had M378 SNP which is found among a
>     > small percentage of the Hazara tribe in India and a small percentage of
>     > the Sindhi tribe of Pakistan. How and when this link to a group of
>     > Ashkenazi Jewish people took place has been the subject of some
>     > interesting and confusing debates in this chat room.
>     >
>     > But the L245 SNP is downstream from the M378. Downstream means evolved
>     > later in time. This makes us even more unique. Two of our members have
>     > SNPs downstream from the L245. One is the L272 and the other is the
>     > L315.
>     > These more recent mutations may have evolved within a few hundred years
>     > in the Mediterranean area.
>     >
>     > Since many of you have consented to have your samples tested for these
>     > newly discovered SNPs we will soon know so much more about this.
>     >
>     > Family Tree DNA posts its version of the draft y-chromosome tree at the
>     > following link. But Rebekah's is more up-to-date and gives much more
>     > information - the link above.
>     >
>     > Draft Y-Tree at FTDNA Site
>     > <http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=31182976>
>     >
>     > I personally believe these new discoveries will put to rest any notion
>     > that the Khazars or the mythical Ashina were the source of our Qness.
>     >
>     > As more and more downstream SNPs are discovered we may eventually find
>     > there is one unique to Ashkenazi Jewish Qs. I will wait for Rebekah and
>     > Alissandro to announce this.
>     >
>     > I would like to personally express my appreciation to Rebekah,
>     > Alissandro and the others who are doing this work on our behalf.
>     >
>     > If you do not understand what I am talking about post a response. If you
>     > do understand what I am talking about and know more than me please post
>     > a response.
>     >
>     > Regards,
>     >
>     > Dave Howard
>     >
>
>
>     Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
>     Messages in this topic (9)
>     2. Change:  New Email Address
>     Posted by: "NADENE GOLDFOOT" goldfoot1@...   goldfootn
>     Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:36 pm (PDT)
>
>
>     Please see that my email address is now: Nadene Goldfoot:
>     goldfoot1@...
>     Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
>     Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity
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>

KINDLY PASS THIS MESSAGE ON TO D.J. WALETZKY AS I AM UNABLE TO FORWARD IT TO HIM
DIRECT.

Hi D.J. Waletzky
I received a copy of your ery interesting email and forwarded it to a colleague
of mine Dr Cyril Hromnik who is a "Solvak" from
outside the capital of Slovakia which is Bratislawa.    Once upon a time it was
all part of the bigger picture of CZECHOSLOVIA.
Cyril is a Doctor of Ancient History and Linguistics, graduating at Charles
University Prague and also at Syracuse University
New York, and has been doing research in Indo-African Ancent History for the
past 30 years which brought him to live in
Cape Town South Africa.  As a finely educated European he speaks many languages
hence his rather simple reply to your
question about the meaning of your surname - see below.
Do you remember the name of the Polish President who died in the aircrash last
year ?
I think it was very similar if not the same surname as yours.   Suggest you
check this out.
In Cape Town we have a Jewish family with the surname "Wilensky" - probably all
from the same root.

"I would rather think that Waletzky or Walecki comes from walec = steam roller
or any other roller. This would seem more likely both in Polish and in Slovak
and Czech."
Dr Cyril A Hromnik

By the way, what is your first name?
Best wishes
Denise Bremridge (nee Goldfoot / Goldfus / "Zolotaya nogai")
Cape Town
South Africa


--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi D.J. Walstzky,
> How nice it is to communicate with someone who is a Q1b with a good Jewish
background.  My brother is the Q1b and I also have the genes but not the Ydna of
identification.  Our surname is very rare, Goldfoot, so I have become the
administrator of the surname: Goldfoot on familytreedna.  Being I am the family
genealogist, this was the next step in learning about our Jewish family.  I've
had the test done up to 67 alleles and now am waiting for the results of the
L275 and L314 SNP's.
> By having a Goldfoot blog I was able to get in touch with an Ian Goldfoot and
have him  tested, and he was also a Q1b and at 67 alleles, only has a distance
of 3.   I've since been in close contact and have finally figured a place to
connect on our tree.
>
> As I understand, Q1b  makes up 5% of the Ashkenazi Jewish population.  As you
probably know, our Q's' origin has been found to be  the Altai Mts of Siberia,
Mongolia and parts of Turkey.  I suspected Khazaria also, but bought a much
better and more up to date in research book, The Jews of Khazaria, 2nd Edition
by Kevin Alan Brook.  I'm afraid anti-semites have just loved Arthur Koestler's
The Thirteenth Tribe as they have used it to try to prove we have no business
returning to Israel.  Now Kevin Brook makes no comments on whether or not we Q1b
are from Khazaria.  First off, they need remains of the royal house of Khazaria
to find out what their Ydna was to know anything about it, and I don't know if
that's happened yet.  Kevin does have a website to check on which I haven't done
for awhile.
>
> Familytreedna has an Ashina Royal group led by our distant cousin, Afred
"Freddy" Krupa of Croatia, a famous artist who I have corresponded with quite a
lot.  He was pretty much blasted by the rest of the group in ftdna except the
owner for thinking we came from Khazaria.  That surprised me, because it seems
to me to be a very likely possibility.  Since then, some have commented that
some may be from Khazaria.
>
> I've thought about it and think there's also a good possibility that we are
from Queen Esther's group in Persia.  I've researched how the Jewish Persians
(now Iran) ever got there in the first place and it's a possibility.  At any
rate, the answer is not known as yet.
>
> Quite a few people in our group are not Jewish and lack the historic
educational background, I'm afraid.  They are fantastic in their genetic
knowledge, however, and must be attending all the meetings about it.  One is
Rebekkah Canada, and the other is Dave Howard of familytreedna.  Bennett
Greenspan, head of ftdna is Jewish and has been very helpful.  He even spoke to
our Jewish Genealogical Society of Oregon monthly meeting.
>
> As for our Q1b inheritance, our grandfather was Nathan Goldfoot of "Russia" on
the 1910 federal USA census.  I have found Goldfus/fuss in the Telsiai,
Lithuania area which is close to his wife, Hattie Jermulowske's birth home of
Lazdijai, Suwalki, Lithuania which is sometimes referred to as Poland.  They met
in Council, Idaho and married in 1905, moving to Portland, Oregon after the
birth of a son in 1906.
>
> Dave Howard told me about a sale at 23 & Me and I couldn't resist so I got to
do the test this time and have found a lot of people matching some of the
segments of my dna on different chromosomes. (Their test is so different, for as
a female I was able to have my whole genome surveyed.)  Evidently the matches we
inherit go back farther than the genealogy information I have from the Pale of
Russia and I can't make a connection, but it's very interesting.  As it turned
out, Dave and I only had a teeny match on a chromosome.
>
> Right now I'm reading "Tracing Your Jewish DNA for Family History & Ancestry
by Anne Hart, who is a Unitarian.  So far, several of the websites she mentions,
and she has tons of them are already not coming up.  The book was written in
2003 so already there have been updates to the research, but she has lots of
information here good for anyone, not just Jewish people.
>
> I like your suggestion of using 23 yrs per generation instead of the usual 25.
We were marrying quite young and had children for a long time, so I think it's
quite reasonable.  As for me personally, I married at 17 and my son was born at
18, and then I finished college.  I've read where in the far past Jewish women
were married off even at 13.  I think I have that in a blog article.
>
> What is interesting is that we had a Barry Zwick (recently passed away) who
collected facts from the ftdna Q1b and issued sort of a monthly piece showing
all the occupations of the group, and it is an outstanding group of well
educated men.  Many were authors.
>
> I made aliyah to Israel in 1980 and had to return at the end of 1985, so wrote
a book called "Letters From Israel" several years after returning.  My mother
had saved all my letters and she gave them back to me with the admonishment of
go now and write a book.  Now I'm keeping several blogs: the first being
http://goldfoot_genealogy.blogspot.com which is full of lists of found
Goldfus/fuss; historic facts of Jews and our migrations, dna stuff.  The others
are http://israel-nadene.blogspot.com  and 
http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com  .  I'm very supportive of Israel
and being a retired teacher am trying to educate people about things they're not
aware of about Israel and am trying to do it in short pieces because I know
people have no patience in reading something about Israel today, sad but true.
>
> It's interesting as to your interest in making a documentary film.  My son of
course is not a Q1b, but has a few of the genes.  He is a registered nurse whose
real interest is in making videos and has been making videos for the hospital he
works at.  He's in the CCU department of the Cardiac Unit and nurses have to
keep upgrading their credentials and have to watch teaching videos.  He's doing
a fantastic job-not making any money at it but he sure is improving what they
had been forced to watch.  Actually, he hopes to have this to fall back on when
the day comes that he's no longer working as a nurse.
>
> I"d love to watch your trailer but chances are it'll just start and stop for
me.  I can't even watch Steve's videos.  I have frontier as my phone, TV and
computer carrier and my computer man can't even do anything for me so I can
watch.  There have been some things, however, that I have been able to watch
without it stopping. which amazes me..
> All the best,
> Nadene Goldfoot
> sister of David Alan Goldfoot Ph.d.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: zkynyc
>   To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 8:10 AM
>   Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Doing a genetic genealogy project
>
>
>
>   Hi everyone,
>
>   A few months ago I started doing a small documentary film project about my
family history and our relatively unusual last name. By happenstance, four
generations of Waletzkys have all lived within seven blocks of my current
apartment, which is down the street from the synagogue where my (paternal)
grandfather was bar mitzvahed and married my grandmother. We've also been
Yiddish speakers and deeply involved in preserving Yiddish language and
secular-Jewish culture here in New York since my great-grandfather came here
from Mezritch (Miedzyrzec Podlaski, Poland) at the turn of the last century.
>
>   When 23andme offered their promotional discount, I could finally afford to
have some genetic testing done, and while I was waiting for my results I did
plenty of the same research about Jewish genetics I suspect many of the members
of this group have done themselves.
>
>   So when I tested Q1b, it raised all sorts of questions that I'd like to ask
the group; anything discussed here would be on background and I wouldn't quote
anyone without their permission in any finished product, as I think this might
be expanded into a feature-length documentary.
>
>   The most obvious question is whether you think Q1b does in fact imply
Khazarian ancestry. I've wondered about that ever since I found a copy of Arthur
Koestler's book in my synagogue's library when I was 8 and read it
cover-to-cover. Reading the recent messages on this board seems to reflect
consensus away from a Khazarian hypothesis, but there haven't been any concrete
theories set forth as far as I know.
>
>   From my own analysis, I'd say that Khazaria is the most likely source, given
the paucity of other concrete theories. It's important to note that the Most
Recent Common Ancestor is not necessarily the same thing as the first Jewish
Q1b. Given the size and breadth of the sample, I think that assuming a single
common ancestor as the introduction to the Jewish population doesn't make as
much sense for this clade as it does for, say, the distinctively Jewish clades
of I2b or N, which are much smaller.
>
>   Given bottlenecks and genetic drift, reaching the proportion of Q1b to the
rest of the Jewish population and in many major groups (Ashkenazi, Anatolian,
Moroccan, Iraqi, etc.) would be relatively difficult for a single ancestor in
the last 800 years. I estimate Q as 3.97% of the population, averaging the
proportions reported by Shen, Semino, Hammer, Nebel, Behar and others.
>
>   If Q1b were a founding Mediterranean lineage, I think we would see it better
represented among non-Jewish Italian and Palestinian lineages where it is
absent. If it were connected to Sephardic Jews, we would see it among non-Jewish
or traditionally converso families in Spain, Portugal, Mexico/New Mexico and
Cabo Verde, even if genetic drift had reduced its presence among Sephardim to
Moroccans exclusively. (Compare this to the presence of G2c in southwestern
Hispanic populations who are rediscovering their Jewish roots.)
>
>   I think the hypothesis that fits the evidence best is for a small number of
very closely related founders, introduced to the Jewish gene pool several
generations before the accepted TMRCA of 800 years ago. I also think, having
looked at countless records from JRI-Poland and Jewishgen.org, that 23 years per
generation might represent a mean average, but it may not be a canonical guide
when it comes to Y-DNA transmission (as opposed to mtDNA transmission). I've
seen records of men as old as 54 having children to younger wives. Most women
since 1830 seem to have been married around 19-23, but the ages of the men range
upward much more widely, and couples tended to have many children over several
years, up to half of whom died in infancy. As time goes on, the average age per
generation also seems to increase among any population.
>
>   That's where I was in my research about Q when I got my results a few weeks
ago. Since then I've read the debates here and investigated the Ashina dynasty
theory a little more closely. After dismissing it originally, I've come to the
conclusion that it is a definite probability. As a long-time proposition better,
I think the odds are better-than-even but I wouldn't put any specific numbers on
the line.
>
>   The Ashina had a discernable reason to keep a documented Altaic bloodline
vibrant yet restricted from the general Gokturk/Khazar population, are
documented to have joined the Jewish people about 1300 years ago in a relatively
small yet significant number, four thousand nobles, comparable to the 500
families of the Ashina recorded in Chinese texts. Now, I don't attribute any
mythical importance to the Ashina bloodline or consider ancient manuscripts
gospel; history is usually written by the victors and often unreliable. I'm a
bigger fan of the non-mythological claims in these texts that can be
corroborated with other contemporary sources and scientific evidence.
>
>   Q1b seems to have distributions focused in the Ukraine, Hungary and
Lithuania, all recorded to have had a Khazar influx in Jewish sources. The
tradition of being a Levite (which I actually rediscovered in the family, who
had maintained we were Israel my whole lifetime) that seems particular to Q1b
can't be a coincidence, although the connection of this fact to Khazarian origin
is dubious. The near absence of Q1b outside of the Jewish population may be a
result of extermination of the Ashina dynasty for political reasons; most of the
line of the eastern khaganate is noted to have been murdered by their successors
in those confederations. The last documented Ashinas all push out west, just as
Q1b has an obvious westward pattern of expansion before the TMRCA of our
Ashkenazi sub-clade. The Silk Road and the Radhanites both went through the
Jewish Khazar kingdom, further compounding origin theories.
>
>   Again, I think the odds are better-than-even, but I think that in order to
make a definitive claim one way or the other we'd need a testable hypothesis
and, I think, stronger alternate scenarios to test against.
>
>   If anyone has thoughts and hopefully critiques, reply and/or let me know if
you might want to be interviewed on film? We could easily use Skype or other
video chat programs.
>
>   Also, as I've been reading the messages here, I'd like to offer my
assistance to anyone who has questions about Jewish languages, culture or
religion who can't find answers elsewhere. I'm a native Yiddish speaker and have
a (degraded, at this point) understanding of Hebrew and some Aramaic. Although
I'm not a practicing Jew, I did attend an Orthodox Yeshiva in Brooklyn and am
well-versed in Jewish history and folklore.
>
>   By the way, I am also abviously looking for anyone with a family connection
to the name Waletzky or Walecki or coming from the towns of Mezritch or Biala
Podlaska (Biale). One of the major questions I'm trying to answer for myself is
whether Waletzky really means "from Walcz," a town between Sczeczin and Pila in
Pomerania, as the literal translation of the Polish would suggest. I would be
very interested in comparing genes with any Wolinsky Q1bs!
>
>   Thanks,
>   D. J. Waletzky
>
>   P. S. Please contact me by e-mail if you would like to see a link to the
7-minute trailer I put together for the family this Passover. It contains some
NSFW language and a terrible haircut on my part for several minutes.
>

Hi Lori--

I'm really fascinated by your story; there are many Jewish rites, but the main
ones are Ashkenazi, Sephardi and the various Mizrachi traditions.

On the other hand, it sounds like perhaps you might be talking about the
Romaniote tradition of the Greek Jews? We'd need to find out a little more about
the specifics, like which traditional melodies (niggunim) he remembers, the
language spoken by the rabbis of his synagogue(s), or traditional first names.
Then we might be able to help place exactly what he means by "something else!"

If he tested Q1a, that would mean he'd most likely be talking about Yemeni
traditions. If he's Q1b, I wonder if maybe he's talking about the various Turkic
traditions like the Krymchak or possibly even Karaites, in which case he would
have no family tradition of Talmudic study or follow the 'Shulkhan Arukh Kitzur'
that defines the Ashkenazi traditions to which most of us belong. If so, that
would be a major discovery for the group in terms of placing our origins!

--D. J.

--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "lois harford" <lolonurse@...> wrote:
>
> Ashkenazi Jewish - yDNA Haplogroup Q1bHi - I hope I'm doing this correctly. I
subscribed a while ago, after having my dad tested as part of my research of our
family tree, and he turned out to be haplogroup Q. But I haven't been able to
participate, or even devote much attention, much to my chagrin. Anyway, for
whatever reason, I clicked on tonight, and see that there is much progress in
the typing - and I wonder if you still need people to volunteer samples for this
newer typing? My dad would be happy to do this, and since he will be 87 in June,
and is the only male left in the family, and the only Q, I guess it would be a
good idea.
>
> Oh - and by the way, his family (Romanian, but in the New World, anecdotally,
since late 1500's or early 1600's) always said they were neither Ashkenazi nor
Sephardic, but "something else...
> Thanks for any guidance -
> Lois Harford (nee Greenberg)
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>   To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 2:39 AM
>   Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Digest Number 281
>
>
>   Ashkenazi Jewish - yDNA Haplogroup Q1b
>   Messages In This Digest (2 Messages)
>     1a. Re: New Developments - Many Q1b's are now Q1b1* or more From:
goldfootn
>     2. Change:  New Email Address From: NADENE GOLDFOOT
>   View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages
>     1a. Re: New Developments - Many Q1b's are now Q1b1* or more
>     Posted by: "goldfootn" goldfoot1@...   goldfootn
>     Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:13 pm (PDT)
>
>
>     Hi David,
>     I just got this by googling SNP L245. I guess I haven't given this group
my new email address of goldfoot1@...
>     I wanted to tell you that I just ordered the L 245 and the L272 SNP test
for my brother, David Goldfoot after reading Rebekah's email about new SNPs for
another group. I check the tree and found that these were recommended for our
particular haplogroup. Your report below makes it much easier to understand. I
hope the results will tell some interesting things.
>     Nadene Goldfoot
>
>     --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <dshoward@> wrote:
>     >
>     > I recently attended the Group Administrators' Conference in Houston
>     > Texas put on by Family Tree DNA. Thanks to the good work of Rebekah
>     > Canada, Alissandro Biondo and others, the Y-chromosome Tree has been
>     > updated. Most of us are now Q1b1*. There are new tests in process right
>     > now which may show we are Q1b1a or Q1b1b.
>     >
>     > If you go to Rebekah's site at Family Tree DNA you can see how the new
>     > SNPs have changed the chart. What she does not show is the newly
>     > published tree which does recognize some of her work. What is most
>     > significant for all of us is that we all probably have the L245 SNP.
>     >
>     > Click on this link to see Rebekah's New Tree.
>     > <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_Q/default.aspx>
>     >
>     > When we all first started we were told we were in Haplogroup Q meaning
>     > that we had the M242 SNP generic to all Haplogroup Q members. It is
>     > theorized that this mutation took place about 20,000 years ago in
>     > Siberia. Then they found the P36.2 SNP which showed we branched off from
>     > the Siberian group more than 12,000 years ago when a group of Q's
>     > migrated to the Western Hemisphere.
>     >
>     > More recently they found we all had M378 SNP which is found among a
>     > small percentage of the Hazara tribe in India and a small percentage of
>     > the Sindhi tribe of Pakistan. How and when this link to a group of
>     > Ashkenazi Jewish people took place has been the subject of some
>     > interesting and confusing debates in this chat room.
>     >
>     > But the L245 SNP is downstream from the M378. Downstream means evolved
>     > later in time. This makes us even more unique. Two of our members have
>     > SNPs downstream from the L245. One is the L272 and the other is the
>     > L315.
>     > These more recent mutations may have evolved within a few hundred years
>     > in the Mediterranean area.
>     >
>     > Since many of you have consented to have your samples tested for these
>     > newly discovered SNPs we will soon know so much more about this.
>     >
>     > Family Tree DNA posts its version of the draft y-chromosome tree at the
>     > following link. But Rebekah's is more up-to-date and gives much more
>     > information - the link above.
>     >
>     > Draft Y-Tree at FTDNA Site
>     > <http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=31182976>
>     >
>     > I personally believe these new discoveries will put to rest any notion
>     > that the Khazars or the mythical Ashina were the source of our Qness.
>     >
>     > As more and more downstream SNPs are discovered we may eventually find
>     > there is one unique to Ashkenazi Jewish Qs. I will wait for Rebekah and
>     > Alissandro to announce this.
>     >
>     > I would like to personally express my appreciation to Rebekah,
>     > Alissandro and the others who are doing this work on our behalf.
>     >
>     > If you do not understand what I am talking about post a response. If you
>     > do understand what I am talking about and know more than me please post
>     > a response.
>     >
>     > Regards,
>     >
>     > Dave Howard
>     >
>
>
>     Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
>     Messages in this topic (9)
>     2. Change:  New Email Address
>     Posted by: "NADENE GOLDFOOT" goldfoot1@...   goldfootn
>     Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:36 pm (PDT)
>
>
>     Please see that my email address is now: Nadene Goldfoot:
>     goldfoot1@...
>     Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
>     Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity
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Hi Dave--

Thanks for replying! I know you don't want to rehash the Ashina debate; I'm much
more interested in the downstream Q1b1 markers and what you think they mean in
terms of Q1b1's introduction to the Jewish gene pool.

When it comes to Khazar admixture on the whole in Jewish populations, my theory
is that we will find two or three clusters of R1a, only one or two of which will
represent Khazarian influx (which should be related to Chechen, Ingushetian, and
Adygei samples), and the rest would represent the documented mass conversions in
Lithuania during the 15th century and/or individual introgression of local genes
during the last 1000 years. The absolute paucity of Q1b in those Crimean-area
populations poses, I think, the most serious challenge to the Ashina hypothesis.
On the other hand, if Q1b was restricted to the nobility there is a plausible
reason to think it might have a different and more limited distribution. We
also, I think, need to find a better estimate of when Q1a separated from Q1* and
when.

I wrote something on 23andme about how I noticed that the khomus (a.k.a. the
Jew's Harp) has an intriguing correlation to the distribution of 'old-world Q'
across Asia and Europe. The invention of the bass version of the instrument
seems to correspond with younger clades of Q, and its connection to shamanic
religions makes it a good candidate for what I would call a 'cultural marker'
that corresponds to the distribution of our distinctive genetic markers:
http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/newsletter/vol2num2/Harp.htm

Anyway, I would like to make the point, regardless of which theory one
subscribes to, that there's a danger in taking the TMRCA date of 800 years ago,
given the relative imprecision of the estimates that go into those figures.
Hypothetically, several cousins who match 67 of 67 markers marrying into the
Jewish community at the same time might push back the "first Jewish Q1b" two
generations, and other lineages may have been lost to 'genetic drift' in the
many, many massacres in Jewish history. If (as I suspect) the Ukraine was the
original site of Q1b's introduction to the Jewish population, it would have been
particularly vulnerable during the Chmielnicki massacres of 1648 and subsequent
pogroms.

I suppose that until more people get the Walk-through-the-Y testing done, many
clues to these mysteries will remain out of reach. I'm going to try to get some
of my relatives to get tested at 23andme and FamilyTree.

In the short term, I guess what I can show with far more accuracy is which Q1b
lineages are the closest matches to my own through the autosomal SNP matches I
have through 23andme. It seems that most of this group tested through FTDNA (and
I would have too, if I had done a bit more research about what each service
provides), but if anyone here is on 23andme, find me there under the name
zkynyc. I don't know if anyone has seen the J2 Cohen tree available at wikipedia
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cohanim_haplotype_tree.jpg ) but I think
constructing a similar one for all Q1b lineages might be feasible. Has anyone
done anything like this recently? I did notice the cluster chart in the group
attachments, does anyone know how that was made?

At any rate, Dave, I would love to be able to interview you via webcam at some
point if you're interested.

--D. J.



--- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <dshoward@...> wrote:
>
> DJ,
>
> At one time I bought the Khazar theory but it makes no sense to me now. The
Ashinas by way of the Khazars is an even greater stretch.
>
> Who knows what the haplotype of the Ashinas might have been. Assuming it was Q
our downstream markers apparently did not develop in their part of the world.
>
> With respect to the Khazars their y-dna did not disappear. They intermixed
with other central Europeans probably mostly with the Hungarians. Yet there are
hardly any Q1b1* non-Jewish central Europeans. Also, it appears that most
northern European Jewish Q1b1* shared a common ancestor far after the dispersion
of the Khazars.
>
> New downstream markers have been found for most of us and we are now Q1b1*.
These later markers may have developed in the Mediterranean area fairly
recently. (This is sheer speculation on my part.)
>
> Our friend Professor Freddy Krupa does believe the Ashina-Khazar theory with
almost religious zeal. You can find him on Facebook and as the leader of the
Ashina group at Family Tree DNA. He is a nice human being and I like him.
>
> This has been debated and discussed ad nauseam in earlier messages on this
message board.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Dave Howard
>
>
>
> --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "zkynyc" <genetics@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > A few months ago I started doing a small documentary film project about my
family history and our relatively unusual last name. By happenstance, four
generations of Waletzkys have all lived within seven blocks of my current
apartment, which is down the street from the synagogue where my (paternal)
grandfather was bar mitzvahed and married my grandmother. We've also been
Yiddish speakers and deeply involved in preserving Yiddish language and
secular-Jewish culture here in New York since my great-grandfather came here
from Mezritch (Miedzyrzec Podlaski, Poland) at the turn of the last century.
> >
> > When 23andme offered their promotional discount, I could finally afford to
have some genetic testing done, and while I was waiting for my results I did
plenty of the same research about Jewish genetics I suspect many of the members
of this group have done themselves.
> >
> > So when I tested Q1b, it raised all sorts of questions that I'd like to ask
the group; anything discussed here would be on background and I wouldn't quote
anyone without their permission in any finished product, as I think this might
be expanded into a feature-length documentary.
> >
> > The most obvious question is whether you think Q1b does in fact imply
Khazarian ancestry. I've wondered about that ever since I found a copy of Arthur
Koestler's book in my synagogue's library when I was 8 and read it
cover-to-cover. Reading the recent messages on this board seems to reflect
consensus away from a Khazarian hypothesis, but there haven't been any concrete
theories set forth as far as I know.
> >
> > From my own analysis, I'd say that Khazaria is the most likely source, given
the paucity of other concrete theories. It's important to note that the Most
Recent Common Ancestor is not necessarily the same thing as the first Jewish
Q1b. Given the size and breadth of the sample, I think that assuming a single
common ancestor as the introduction to the Jewish population doesn't make as
much sense for this clade as it does for, say, the distinctively Jewish clades
of I2b or N, which are much smaller.
> >
> > Given bottlenecks and genetic drift, reaching the proportion of Q1b to the
rest of the Jewish population and in many major groups (Ashkenazi, Anatolian,
Moroccan, Iraqi, etc.) would be relatively difficult for a single ancestor in
the last 800 years. I estimate Q as 3.97% of the population, averaging the
proportions reported by Shen, Semino, Hammer, Nebel, Behar and others.
> >
> > If Q1b were a founding Mediterranean lineage, I think we would see it better
represented among non-Jewish Italian and Palestinian lineages where it is
absent. If it were connected to Sephardic Jews, we would see it among non-Jewish
or traditionally converso families in Spain, Portugal, Mexico/New Mexico and
Cabo Verde, even if genetic drift had reduced its presence among Sephardim to
Moroccans exclusively. (Compare this to the presence of G2c in southwestern
Hispanic populations who are rediscovering their Jewish roots.)
> >
> > I think the hypothesis that fits the evidence best is for a small number of
very closely related founders, introduced to the Jewish gene pool several
generations before the accepted TMRCA of 800 years ago. I also think, having
looked at countless records from JRI-Poland and Jewishgen.org, that 23 years per
generation might represent a mean average, but it may not be a canonical guide
when it comes to Y-DNA transmission (as opposed to mtDNA transmission). I've
seen records of men as old as 54 having children to younger wives. Most women
since 1830 seem to have been married around 19-23, but the ages of the men range
upward much more widely, and couples tended to have many children over several
years, up to half of whom died in infancy. As time goes on, the average age per
generation also seems to increase among any population.
> >
> > That's where I was in my research about Q when I got my results a few weeks
ago. Since then I've read the debates here and investigated the Ashina dynasty
theory a little more closely. After dismissing it originally, I've come to the
conclusion that it is a definite probability. As a long-time proposition better,
I think the odds are better-than-even but I wouldn't put any specific numbers on
the line.
> >
> > The Ashina had a discernable reason to keep a documented Altaic bloodline
vibrant yet restricted from the general Gokturk/Khazar population, are
documented to have joined the Jewish people about 1300 years ago in a relatively
small yet significant number, four thousand nobles, comparable to the 500
families of the Ashina recorded in Chinese texts. Now, I don't attribute any
mythical importance to the Ashina bloodline or consider ancient manuscripts
gospel; history is usually written by the victors and often unreliable. I'm a
bigger fan of the non-mythological claims in these texts that can be
corroborated with other contemporary sources and scientific evidence.
> >
> > Q1b seems to have distributions focused in the Ukraine, Hungary and
Lithuania, all recorded to have had a Khazar influx in Jewish sources. The
tradition of being a Levite (which I actually rediscovered in the family, who
had maintained we were Israel my whole lifetime) that seems particular to Q1b
can't be a coincidence, although the connection of this fact to Khazarian origin
is dubious. The near absence of Q1b outside of the Jewish population may be a
result of extermination of the Ashina dynasty for political reasons; most of the
line of the eastern khaganate is noted to have been murdered by their successors
in those confederations. The last documented Ashinas all push out west, just as
Q1b has an obvious westward pattern of expansion before the TMRCA of our
Ashkenazi sub-clade. The Silk Road and the Radhanites both went through the
Jewish Khazar kingdom, further compounding origin theories.
> >
> > Again, I think the odds are better-than-even, but I think that in order to
make a definitive claim one way or the other we'd need a testable hypothesis
and, I think, stronger alternate scenarios to test against.
> >
> > If anyone has thoughts and hopefully critiques, reply and/or let me know if
you might want to be interviewed on film? We could easily use Skype or other
video chat programs.
> >
> > Also, as I've been reading the messages here, I'd like to offer my
assistance to anyone who has questions about Jewish languages, culture or
religion who can't find answers elsewhere. I'm a native Yiddish speaker and have
a (degraded, at this point) understanding of Hebrew and some Aramaic. Although
I'm not a practicing Jew, I did attend an Orthodox Yeshiva in Brooklyn and am
well-versed in Jewish history and folklore.
> >
> > By the way, I am also abviously looking for anyone with a family connection
to the name Waletzky or Walecki or coming from the towns of Mezritch or Biala
Podlaska (Biale). One of the major questions I'm trying to answer for myself is
whether Waletzky really means "from Walcz," a town between Sczeczin and Pila in
Pomerania, as the literal translation of the Polish would suggest. I would be
very interested in comparing genes with any Wolinsky Q1bs!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > D. J. Waletzky
> >
> > P. S. Please contact me by e-mail if you would like to see a link to the
7-minute trailer I put together for the family this Passover. It contains some
NSFW language and a terrible haircut on my part for several minutes.
> >
>