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Enjoy

I guess that with all the hype surrounding the BBC television series, now might
be a good time to see if people would also be interested in a taste of history
as well as a glimpse of it.

   Allan


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http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fish_sauce&diff=30010235&
oldid=29397691

A wikipedian with the username "Dysmorodrepanis" added the following to the
article on "fish sauce":

Any of the thicker varieties of Southeast Asian fish sauces (like [[Padek]]),
preferrably from [[mackerel]], would be the modern equivalent of the original
Ancient Roman variety for cooking purposes where ''garum'' is used, and any
thinner sauce (like ''n??c m?m'') when ''liquamen'' is called for.

Hmm... I think we should probably change this one. It seems not quite right,
and more than a little overconfident. Yet it sounds based on Sally's theory.
Is Dysmorodrepanis one of us?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am a new member, so forgive me if I'm fumbling..
How was spelt used?  In soups like barley, or as a
grain for bread?
Thanks and--I appreciate your patience.

Nicole
Helper, Utah  (of all silly places)



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Hi

I hav no Idea who this is and it is deceptively logical but we must  assume i
think that all cooking garum/liquamen are  thin.  There may have been
different kind of fish sauce that  might be thicker as pickles and table
condiments
used by the diner but we know  very little about them and cannot assume that
blood garum is thick.   My experiment is looking good and with a thin dark layer
of clear liquid almost  ready to be decanted.

sally


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Both.

PhilZ

-------------- Original message --------------
I am a new member, so forgive me if I'm fumbling..
How was spelt used?  In soups like barley, or as a
grain for bread?
Thanks and--I appreciate your patience.

Nicole
Helper, Utah  (of all silly places)



__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There was allec, something like anchovy paste.

PhilZ

-------------- Original message --------------
Hi

I hav no Idea who this is and it is deceptively logical but we must  assume i
think that all cooking garum/liquamen are  thin.  There may have been
different kind of fish sauce that  might be thicker as pickles and table
condiments
used by the diner but we know  very little about them and cannot assume that
blood garum is thick.   My experiment is looking good and with a thin dark layer
of clear liquid almost  ready to be decanted.

sally


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It should be pointed out that although _far_ is traditionally
translated "spelt," our own Andrew Dalby says it actually means
"emmer." Spelt is, he says, actually _scandala_ or _spelta_. Now, I
assume he bases these translations on the descriptions of different
grains given by Pliny, which would presumably be very good evidence,
but as I know nothing about cereals myself I haven't really looked into
it. The problem is that just about any other source will still
translate _far_ as "spelt", so you should be very careful when looking
into this matter.

-Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: N Thomas <hipnick_98@...>
To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 22:59:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Apicius] Spelt

   I am a new member, so forgive me if I'm fumbling..
How was spelt used?  In soups like barley, or as a
grain for bread?
Thanks and--I appreciate your patience.

Nicole
Helper, Utah  (of all silly places)



__________________________________________
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Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com






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Salve!

Thought I would pass along this info.  In the
Jan/Feb issue of Archaeology Odyssey Magazine
there are two articles you might find
interesting.

"Fine Dining in Pompeii" about a cache of formal,
silver dinner service of 20 pieces.

Also, "A Mesopotamian Feast - Ancient Recipes for
Modern Cooks".

There are excellent pictures in both articles.

Vale,
Correus





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I'd love to see then Mesopotamian article, but Amazon says that even if I get a
subscription it will take 12-16 weeks so I don't think I can get this issue.

Is this magazine in Libraries? I'm not familiar with it.

Jane Cates






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave!

Thought I would pass these on to you all.  It
isn't food, but they sure are cool!


http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=Customized+Roman+Legionaires&styp\
e=dfic

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=145457

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=11541

Correus

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Sorry to have been off air. I was in New York, speaking at Sotheby's
about 'Dining with the Gods'. Sotheby's had a sale on including some
nice Greek vases, but were not giving away free samples, unfortunately.

I'm not the only one who says 'far' was not spelt, though it's true
that many non-foodie historians, if they have never heard of emmer,
continue to use spelt as their translation. Actually it isn't only
ancient foodies who have to worry about this: if you are interested in
modern Italian food, some sources will tell you to use spelt, whereas
spelt is not grown in Italy and never was: for farro you have to use
emmer, and if you buy something labeled farro, packed in North
America, it's a good idea to make sure that the labeler knew the
difference. On this see David Downie, /Cooking the Roman way/, around
page 10. [Downie is a modern Roman.]

I don't think any modern writer who actually knows the difference
claims that far was spelt and not emmer. Spelt was a central European
grain, which only became known to Romans when their empire spread
north of the Alps: hence spelta/scandala are listed in such later
sources as Pliny and in Diocletian's Price Edict (it was quite all
right to give to the troops) but never in recipes such as those of
Apicius.

Andrew Dalby wrote:
> I'm not the only one who says 'far' was not spelt,

I probably should have phrased my comment better ;)


> Actually it isn't only
> ancient foodies who have to worry about this: if you are interested in
> modern Italian food, some sources will tell you to use spelt, whereas
> spelt is not grown in Italy and never was: for farro you have to use
> emmer, and if you buy something labeled farro, packed in North
> America, it's a good idea to make sure that the labeler knew the
> difference. On this see David Downie, /Cooking the Roman way/, around
> page 10. [Downie is a modern Roman.]

I had no notion that emmer was still in use in Italy! Perhaps I can
acquire some via my (non-academic) foodie aunt and uncle, who own a
gourmet market.

As for Downie, it is indeed on page 10 exactly. But having read it, I'm
only more confused. He says "farro" refers to three different cereals,
but only lists emmer and spelt. Second of all, he DOES count spelt as a
kind of farro: "North American growers go out of their way to advertise
[spelt] as the same thing as Italian farro, which is confusing, since
it is in fact only one of the three main varieties of farro and has
limited uses." Third, he says "[Spelt] has a very low gluten content
and, unlike emmer, does not make a starchy paste." Now, I know I've
heard spelt advertized as safe for people who are allergic to gluten,
but in my experience spelt flour is in fact amazingly sticky!

I also note that he says "far" is the source of the modern word
"farina." He should probably know that "farina" is an ancient word too
;)

Thanks as always for the info!

I found this link on the history of wheat cultivation. It has a good timeline of
domestication for those interested.

http://www.museums.org.za/bio/plants/poaceae/triticum.htm

docendo discimus
Gwenhwyvar
www.ancientartsonline.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There's also the Playmobil Romans as seen at :
http://www.gardenwargaming.com/ancients/ancientgallery.html

Chris



--- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@y...> wrote:
>
> Ave!
>
> Thought I would pass these on to you all.  It
> isn't food, but they sure are cool!
>
>
>
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=Customized+Roman+Legionaires&styp\
e=dfic
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=145457
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=11541
>
> Correus
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Good question! How was emmer or spelt for that matter used?

   Allan
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The Chinese have a shrimp paste. I don't suppose that the Romans had one?

   Allan


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Did the Romans barbecue much and if so, did they use a spit? And what cuts of
meat were there. Am I wrong in assuming that they didn't have sirloin or T-bone?


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You might be interested in Krish Seetah's article "Meat in History ?
The Butchery trade in the Romano-Brittish period", in _Food & History_
2:2 (2004) which touches very lightly on cuts of meat. Here is the
relevant passage:

"Another area that supports this conclusion is the manner in which the
scapular was processed. This was an area that again demonstrated the
very different way in which Romano-British butcher[s] functioned
compared to other periods. THe bulk of the meat on the scapular of a
cattle carcass lies on the posterior surface. This should be easy to
remove, apart from the fact that the main attachment point for this
bulk of meat is the scapular spine; the spine runs along the length of
the posterior surface, therefore in order to remove the meat from the
scapular a butcher is required to cut on either side of the spine with
a knife to 'pare' away the meat. The urban Romano-British butchers
removed the meat in a completely different manner by actually cutting
the spine (presumably with the meat attached) from the scapular, then
removing the spine from the meat as opposed to removing the meat from
either side of the spine. This is particularly interesting as it would
require the butcher to hold the scapular as the chop was delivered into
the spine, thus putting his/her hand within inches of the cleaver. THis
would indicate that the butchers had a high defree of accuracy as this
action could quite easily result in serious injury. The benefits of
this method are evident when the two methods are compared. As a
comparative measure the meat from the scapular was removed using a
knife and took 34 slicing cuts; using the Romano-Brittish method one or
two cleaver chops gave the same result"

...OK, this has very little to do with your question, but may be of
interest to you nevertheless.


-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Hunnicutt <allanhunni@...>
To: Apicius Gaiius <apicius@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:11:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Apicius] BBQ

    Did the Romans barbecue much and if so, did they use a spit? And what
cuts of
meat were there. Am I wrong in assuming that they didn't have sirloin
or T-bone?


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Romans very rarely ate beef it was and remains a relatively unpopular
meat in Italy.  The Romans (and indeed modern Italians) prefer to veal.

Animals are eaten young, from lamb (which in Italy is eaten when
still unweened) at around 12-16lbs full body weight to calves.

Cattle require a lot of pasture land and central Italy is mountainous
so sheep and goats were and still are preferred.  The Romans used
(and continue to use) mainly sheep's milk for cheeses.

As to 'barbecues' I am sure that meat was cooked sometimes over wood
charcoal and that when an entire animal was cooked in this manner a
spit was employed.  It would be difficult to cook it otherwise.

Marco


On Dec 12, 2005, at 16:11, Allan Hunnicutt wrote:

> Did the Romans barbecue much and if so, did they use a spit? And
> what cuts of meat were there. Am I wrong in assuming that they
> didn't have sirloin or T-bone?
>
>
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Greetings
Does anyone know if the mezzaluna (single blade or double blade), was
a common (or even uncommon) roman kitchen tool? Perhaps under a
different name? There have been statements in literature of dubious
authority that bronze age versions are quite common. Unfortunately
when I try to track the original reference, it never seems to exisit.

I'd be glad of other opinions on this. On this page

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dalby/extra/SalammboFeast.html

I've put the French text and two English translations of the
Carthaginian Feast which is the first scene in Flaubert's Salammbo
(1862). My questions:

Did Flaubert's research pay off? Is this feast realistic? How well
have the translators managed? Incidentally, does anyone fancy
recreating this scene today?

A few initial comments/queries: I don't know anything about the
force-fed puppies with pink bristles (and I'm not sure if I want to);
does anyone? I suppose that by 'assa foetida' (which is the correct
French spelling) Flaubert means silphium? What is Tamrapanni wood?

Andrew

>Did Flaubert's research pay off? Is this feast realistic?
I feel that this is a very realistic scene and feast for the time...quite a
party. While reading the text, I could visualize the event taking place. Some of
the recipes are quite familiar. One of my favorite Apician recipes is the birds
in green sauce. I am not the most fluent when it comes to terms and correct
names, so the second English translation did help quite a bit, but I preferred
the first.

>How well have the translators managed?

>Incidentally, does anyone fancyrecreating this scene today?
Personally I would enjoy very much recreating this feast....minus the dog
course. It goes without saying that Western culture dictates that the canine is
our companions not our main course, not to mention the legality of the issue. I
would likely serve the door mouse, if I could find it, as a curiosity for the
adventurous and not on the main menu.

A few initial comments/queries: I don't know anything about the
force-fed puppies with pink bristles (and I'm not sure if I want to);
does anyone?

>I suppose that by 'assa foetida' (which is the correctFrench spelling) Flaubert
means silphium?
I would also assume that this would be a correct interpretation given the 19th
century influences of the original translation. If I am not mistaken, I have
seen reference to asafoetida in some old texts, but I feel certain that at such
a feast they would have served the best they could get.


>What is Tamrapanni wood?
Tamrapanni was the name of the region that we now know as Sri Lanka.

docendo discimus
Gwenhwyvar
www.ancientartsonline.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >What is Tamrapanni wood?
>Tamrapanni was the name of the region that we now know as Sri Lanka.

Could it be cinnamon then?

Martijn Bink

Andrew Dalby wrote:

>I'd be glad of other opinions on this. On this page
>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dalby/extra/SalammboFeast.html
>
>I've put the French text and two English translations of the
>Carthaginian Feast which is the first scene in Flaubert's Salammbo
>(1862). My questions:
>
>Did Flaubert's research pay off? Is this feast realistic? How well
>have the translators managed? Incidentally, does anyone fancy
>recreating this scene today?

Goodness, i can't imagine that he would have had access to very good
information. There was little if any good archaeology in his day.
Salammbo is largely a fantasy of pagan decadence and depravity.

While this scene may reflect a Roman banquet (minus the dog), i
strongly doubt it reflects a Punic or even Phoenician feast.

So very little was known about actual Canaanite, Phoenician, and
Punic culture when Flaubert wrote this book.

>A few initial comments/queries: I don't know anything about the
>force-fed puppies with pink bristles (and I'm not sure if I want to);
>does anyone? I suppose that by 'assa foetida' (which is the correct
>French spelling) Flaubert means silphium?

There are, to the best of my knowledge, no detailed feast
descriptions written by the Carthaginians themselves, and no
corroborating evidence from Canaan or Phoenicia. Most of the
surviving documents from Ugarit i've read are medical, religious, or
literary. Food descriptions are limited. I don't recall any complete
feasts being described.

A set of Mesopotamian recipe tablets was translated by Jean Bottero
into French and published by Eisenbrauns in 1995 as Textes Culinaires
Mesopotamiens. There's a parallel, but less academic, version
recently published in English as The Oldest Cuisine in the World :
Cooking in Mesopotamia, by the University of Chicago. It gives an
idea of what was eaten in Mesopotamia, and may have been eaten in
Canaan/early Phoenicia. But this would be long before Carthage.

And most of what was written about Punic culture that has survived to
our day was written by enemies, and not wholly trustworthy.

Most of descriptions of the food suggest that Flaubert or someone he
used as a source, had read the Apician cookbook, and possibly some
late Medieval European cookbook.

>What is Tamrapanni wood?

This webpage:
http://www.buddhanet.net/bodh_gaya/bodh_gaya02.htm
says, "The name Tamrapanni could refer either to the region near the
Tambapanni River in South India or to Sri Lanka."

I suspect that Flaubert chose the word because it sounded exotic.
Perhaps someone had written a travelogue that mentioned the word, or
some friend of Flaubert had come back from South Asia with something
made of "Tamrapanni wood".

Certainly the Phoenicians and Roman-period Arabs were trading with
India for spices, gems, and other exotic luxuries. But in my studies
of Canaante, Phoenician, and Punic cultures i haven't run across a
reference to Tamrapanni wood...

>  oxen were roasting
>  oxen roasted

This seems unlikely to me, although i don't have any really good info
to back me up. But from what i've been reading - both sacrifice lists
and cookbooks from a few millennia and information in the
Encyclopedia of Islam, discussing pre-Islamic food - anyway, back to
the oxen... it is more likely that sheep and goats would be roasted
than a tough work beast. Beef, or beef-like meat, was not much
appreciated by the North Africans or the Arabs, in both pre-Islamic
and Islamic times.

>  Anise-sprinkled loaves
>  Loaves dusted with aniseed

This is at least plausible, but i haven't read about the Phoenicians
or Punic people making bread this way...

>  great cheeses heavier than discuses
>  great cheeses, weighing more than discuses

I interject here that i believe that most of the dairying would be
with sheep and goats.

Dairy items were of great importance to the Ancient Mesopotamians in
their cookbook, and to the nomadic pastoralists of the Arabian
Peninsula. My experience in Morocco was that it was common to drink
fresh milk (sometimes with ground almonds or with ground sesame seeds
and sugar) or a somewhat fermented milk (i don't know the Moroccan
name) that reminds me of kefir with its yeasty flavor.

There is a dish mentioned in a ritual to the Canaanite deities Shahar
and Shalam (Dusk and Dawn) - it orders that for sacrifice: blend
together coriander in honeyed milk, mint in yogurt.

Earlier translators assumed that this said a kid in its mother's
milk, just to support the Bible, but more recent translators see the
milk but not the kid in this passage.

So i would think that in a real Carthaginian banquet there'd be a
great deal more dairy foods - along the lines of yogurt, laban, milk,
fermented milk/kefer, fresh cheeses - not aged cheeses - so they were
probably not formed into great wheels - that just sounds so darn
French! :-)

>  birds and green sauce
>  birds in green sauce

Now i have to look in the Apician cookbook and the Mesopotamian
tablets to see if there are any green sauces. Certainly there were
Medieval green sauces, which i've made a few times and enjoyed
greatly.

>  every kind of shell-fish that is gathered on the Punic coasts
>  all the kinds of shell-fish found on the Punic shores

I suppose this is possible, but i don't really know what shell fish
are available in North Africa. My modern North African cookbooks have
fish recipes but few, if any, for shell fish. Most North African
Muslims are Sunni, which allows for eating shell fish (Shi'a often
forbid shellfish)

>  wheaten porridge

sounds a lot like Medieval frumenty...

>  beans and barley

Barley is possible. Certainly it was grown in North Africa. In fact,
the Amazight/Berbers original couscous was made of barley. On the
other hand, barley would be rather rustic in an urban setting, where
wheat would be preferred.

Beans, well, that depends on what Flaubert meant by beans. The only
indigenous Old World beans are fava beans. Of course there were other
pulses, such as chickpeas and lentils. Black-eyed peas or cream peas,
a close relative without the black, both of which originated in
India, are another possibility. But most beans no matter the color
are derived from the New World and unknown before the Romans
destroyed Carthage.

>  snails dressed with cumin
>  snails in cumin

This sounds Apician... so many cumin sauces in that book.

>meats, antelopes with their horns, peacocks with their feathers,
>whole sheep cooked in sweet wine, haunches of she-camels and
>buffaloes, hedgehogs with garum, fried grasshoppers, and preserved
>dormice

Grasshoppers again sound rather rustic rather than regal, as do the
hedgehogs, which were a delicacy among nomadic pre-Islamic Arabs. The
dormice are Apician, again.

>  Large pieces of fat floated in the midst of saffron
>  great lumps of fat floated in saffron

I've read debates about whether saffron had made it this far west
this early. I'm willing to believe that North African Punic cuisine
didn't have it and this is a fantasy of Flaubert's.

>  Everything was running over with wine, truffles, and asafoetida
>  Everything overflowed with wine, truffles, and assa foetida

Truffles? I haven't read much about truffles in North Africa. Are
they found there?

>  Pyramids of fruit were crumbling upon honeycombs
>  Pyramids of fruit tumbled over honey-cakes

Both honeycombs and honey-cakes are possible - certainly there are
honey-cakes in the Apician cookbook and mentioned by other Greek and
Roman writers (i am quite dependent on your books, Mr. Dalby :-)

>  a few of those plump little dogs with pink silky hair and fattened
>on olive lees
>  a few little dogs with big bellies and pink bristles, fattened on olive-pulp

I guess i missed this. I haven't read of eating dogs in any of the
Canaanite or Phoenician literature, and i don't recall dogs in the
Mesopotamian cooking tablets.

>  water-melons and lemons

  From what i have read, lemons did not reach this far west this early.
The melons are a possibility, but i think that other fruits are at
least as likely if not more so.

>  lobster

>  wines of the jujube, cinnamomum and lotus

I've never heard of wine made of lotus. However the fruit known as
jujube is also called the fruit of the lotus tree. It is
traditionally eaten at the Persian Spring Equinox New Year
celebration Noruz which supposedly goes back to the time of
Zarathustra himself.

It is a sweet, dried fruit that looks rather like a date. It is
variously called the trebizond date, mountain ash tree fruit, and
olyster or oleaster, as well as red date, Chinese red date, Chinese
date, Chinese jujube, jujube. According to another web site, "when
fresh, these fruits are crisp like apples and have a mild, sweet
flavor." It is the fruit of the Elaeagnus orientalis or Elaeagnus
angustifolia orientalis tree, an attractive and very fragrant tree
sometimes also called the lotus fruit tree.

I know that a fermented beverage was made of actual dates, but i
haven't read of one made of Elaeagnus fruit - i suppose it's possible.

-----

Left out by Flaubert, but commonly eaten in Ancient Mesopotamia, the
Ancient and Medieval Levant, and Ancient and Medieval North Africa
are various plants of the allium family. Bottero was not able to
translate all the different allia he found in the Mesopotamian
cookbook tablets. I in reading a number of 13th and 14th century
cookbooks written in Arabic, there were references to a number of
allia for which the translations were inadequate. So there ought to
be a variety of oniony and garlicy dishes.

-----

Finally, i was looking up some of the foods mentioned in the Oxford
Companion to Food. I also pulled down James Trager's often unreliable
Food Chronology. On p. 27 of the paperback edition, he quotes Marc
Anthony's letter to his wife Fulvia in which he describes dinners
with Cleopatra. Flaubert's Carthaginian dinner sounds remarkably
similar, with a few alterations.

"We have five or six courses of fish, oysters, mussels, sew-hogs with
asparagus; then we have capons, pies, and patties of fish and
venison, many kinds of sea fruits and lobsters and polypuses cooked
in spicy sauces, and partridges, cutlets of deer and gazelles,
pheasants inside sweet crusts, big game, piglets stuffed with
becassins and quails, ducks and turkeys [what was the original Latin
here?] and peacocks roasted and served with all their wonderful
feathers, woodcocks in all kinds of sauces, tunny fish of Chalcedony,
sturgeons of Rhodes, lampreys, and patisserie of many kinds that I
have never tasted before, and wonderful fruit from the East."

Trager does not give his source for this letter, nor for his
translation. I'm sure Mr. Dalby can do a better, more accurate job of
translating.

---
Anahita

> Tamrapanni

...is of course cognate to Taprobane, the Greco-Latin name for
Sri-Lanka.


> There is a dish mentioned in a ritual to the Canaanite deities Shahar
> and Shalam (Dusk and Dawn) - it orders that for sacrifice: blend
> together coriander in honeyed milk, mint in yogurt.

This is interesting, but do we really know with security a NW-Semitic
word for yogurt?


> Earlier translators assumed that this said a kid in its mother's
> milk, just to support the Bible, but more recent translators see the
> milk but not the kid in this passage.

More like "to explain the Bible." I don't believe the Bible ever
mentions Canaanites boiling kids in their mother's milk, it just says
not to do it. No reason is given for this rule, but many have tried to
explain it, and "this is a pagan ritual"  is as good an attempt as any.
Too bad there doesn't seem to be evidence for this!

> probably not formed into great wheels - that just sounds so darn
> French! :-)

Ha! True.

> Now i have to look in the Apician cookbook and the Mesopotamian
> tablets to see if there are any green sauces. Certainly there were
> Medieval green sauces, which i've made a few times and enjoyed
> greatly.

Apicius 6.5.4:
   Ius viride in avibus: piper, careum, spicam Indicam, cuminum, folium,
condimenta viridia omne genus, dactilum, mel, acetum, vinum modice,
liquamen et oleum.



> I suppose this is possible, but i don't really know what shell fish
> are available in North Africa.

Flaubert almost certainly had the so-called "purple-fish" in mind.


> >  wheaten porridge
> sounds a lot like Medieval frumenty...

Or puls punica!

> I've never heard of wine made of lotus. However the fruit known as
> jujube is also called the fruit of the lotus tree.

I believe Pliny mentions lotus tree wine.


> Left out by Flaubert, but commonly eaten in Ancient Mesopotamia, the
> Ancient and Medieval Levant, and Ancient and Medieval North Africa
> are various plants of the allium family.

Presumably due to the ROMAN bias against Garlic.

>... he quotes Marc
> Anthony's letter to his wife Fulvia in which he describes dinners
> with Cleopatra. Flaubert's Carthaginian dinner sounds remarkably
> similar, with a few alterations.

Interesting, and not the least bit surprising! I'd love to see the
original Latin for that letter too.


jdm

On Dec 17, 2005, at 3:22 PM, lilinah@... wrote:

> Andrew Dalby wrote:
>

>
>>  a few of those plump little dogs with pink silky hair and fattened
>> on olive lees
>>  a few little dogs with big bellies and pink bristles, fattened on
>> olive-pulp
>
> I guess i missed this. I haven't read of eating dogs in any of the
> Canaanite or Phoenician literature, and i don't recall dogs in the
> Mesopotamian cooking tablets.

Forgive me for committing the sin of "I read in a book somewhere ...."

I recall seeing a book in the U.C. Berkeley "library discard"
bookshop on archaeological evidence of ritual meals involving dogs in
roughly the right time and place -- at the very least, I recall it
involving some Near Eastern location and a date in antiquity.  I'm
not having any luck trying to see if I can turn up something
recognizable on Google.  I suspect the book may have been a
University of California Press publication, since I recall there
being multiple copies available at the bookstore.  (Alas, I never
bought one -- the topic was a bit far afield from my interests.)

At any rate, the notion of feasting on dogs _may_ have had a solid
historic basis in this context (or the mention may be entirely
coincidental to the historic evidence).

Heather

--
Heather Rose Jones
heather.jones@...
http://www.heatherrosejones.com
LJ:hrj

Ave Jane

Where are you located?  Every major bookstore in my area has this
issue on its stands 9Borders, Barnes & Noble, etc.).

If all else fails, I will send you copies! ;)

Correus

--- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, janegc@c... wrote:
>
> I'd love to see then Mesopotamian article, but Amazon says that
even if I get a subscription it will take 12-16 weeks so I don't
think I can get this issue.
>
> Is this magazine in Libraries? I'm not familiar with it.
>
> Jane Cates
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

For some reason I didn't get Andrew's original letter, but I think I get the
gist of it. I seem to remember Laurence Stager excavated a dogs' cemetery in
Ascalon (which of course has Philistine connections) from the Roman?
Byzantine? period which archaeologists have been trying to explain ever
since...I will have a look when I get to the library and let you know.

Susan Weingarten

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Rose Jones" <heather.jones@...>
To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Apicius] A Carthaginian feast


> On Dec 17, 2005, at 3:22 PM, lilinah@... wrote:
>
>> Andrew Dalby wrote:
>>
>
>>
>>>  a few of those plump little dogs with pink silky hair and fattened
>>> on olive lees
>>>  a few little dogs with big bellies and pink bristles, fattened on
>>> olive-pulp
>>
>> I guess i missed this. I haven't read of eating dogs in any of the
>> Canaanite or Phoenician literature, and i don't recall dogs in the
>> Mesopotamian cooking tablets.
>
> Forgive me for committing the sin of "I read in a book somewhere ...."
>
> I recall seeing a book in the U.C. Berkeley "library discard"
> bookshop on archaeological evidence of ritual meals involving dogs in
> roughly the right time and place -- at the very least, I recall it
> involving some Near Eastern location and a date in antiquity.  I'm
> not having any luck trying to see if I can turn up something
> recognizable on Google.  I suspect the book may have been a
> University of California Press publication, since I recall there
> being multiple copies available at the bookstore.  (Alas, I never
> bought one -- the topic was a bit far afield from my interests.)
>
> At any rate, the notion of feasting on dogs _may_ have had a solid
> historic basis in this context (or the mention may be entirely
> coincidental to the historic evidence).
>
> Heather
>
> --
> Heather Rose Jones
>

I missed the original of this, but a little bird told me that
Archaeology Odyssey is going to cease publication ...

dm

Larry wrote:
> Ave Jane
>
> Where are you located?  Every major bookstore in my area has this
> issue on its stands 9Borders, Barnes & Noble, etc.).
>
> If all else fails, I will send you copies! ;)
>
> Correus
>
> --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, janegc@c... wrote:
>
>>I'd love to see then Mesopotamian article, but Amazon says that
>
> even if I get a subscription it will take 12-16 weeks so I don't
> think I can get this issue.
>
>>Is this magazine in Libraries? I'm not familiar with it.
>>
>>Jane Cates
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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