That's a very cool idea! I probably won't miss
flailing around trying to get the hot wood bent into
shape in one feld swoop a bit!

Thank you
Paul T
--- kaimusailing <asolywoda@...> wrote:

> Had problems due to ribs cracking due to cooling
> quickly while trying
> to bend them singlehandedly.  Finally in frustration
> tried steaming
> them in the foam pipe insulation tube that was
> feeding the steam box.
> Then it occurred to me to pull the insulation tube
> off the kettle with
> the steamed rib still inside and bring it to the
> frame and just pull
> off the tube to allow bending in one section of the
> rib at a time.
> This way the rib stayed hot and flexible right on
> through.  The only
> drawback was doing them one at a time.  Next time
> I'll have one
> steaming while the other is being bent onto the
> frame.  Hope this
> helps.
>
>



      
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Has anyone ever used an Airolite boat on the boundry waters? I am
thinking of building the Robroy and would like to know if any one has
used an Airolite for trips over 5 days anyware and hoe it held up.

I was thinking the same thing.  Since I live in Minnesota and make it
to the BWCA at least once a year, putting a Airolite to the test would
be great.  Only problem is that mine is not built yet.  I think that
landing would not be an issue as long as one gets out of the boat while
close to shore.  I would think the bigger fear would be those rocks
that seem to hide just under the surface that everyone seems to hit.  I
always laugh when I see a rock covered with aluminum/silver and multi
colors from canoes scraping over them.

Bringing duct tape and some epoxy putty might not be a bad idea for
emergencies.

Joel

--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "leeblackglass"
<leeblackglass@...> wrote:
>
>  Has anyone ever used an Airolite boat on the boundry waters? I am
> thinking of building the Robroy and would like to know if any one has
> used an Airolite for trips over 5 days anyware and hoe it held up.
>

I'm the man if you want someone interested in doing this. I've been a
small boat sailor all my life and recently got into Platt's Airolite
canoes. Have built one Snowshow14 with the second at frame stage. I've
already bought the plans for a Blivit13 but am also keen to try a sail
on a canoe. Have you got any further with this??

I've got plans to build a Blivit13 in Hobart, Tasmania some time soon.
Has anyone done so recently? I'm particularly interested in rigging it
with a jib as per photos on the gaboats site. Anyone got any photos or
ideas?

I'd also like to get in touch with Ron Johnson who wrote the
testimonial.

Handsome and Cool Bikers looking for fun!  Chat with them here:
http://bikerguy.iii.googlepages.com/bikerboyz.htm

Has anyone attempted to build a geo.frame and NEST it? If so I would
really like to have some feedback on this.I am thinking of a 14',
( nested 8' and 6')

Cheers and fair winds, Bill

----- Original Message -----

From: Bill Crews

To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:06 PM

Subject: [Airolite_Boats] Geodesic "nesting"

Has anyone attempted to build a geo.frame and NEST it? If so I would
really like to have some feedback on this.I am thinking of a 14',
( nested 8' and 6')

Cheers and fair winds, Bill

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Does anyone have suggestions on where to obtain or order waterborne
varnish to finish the Dacron?

--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "jephryh" <jephryh@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have suggestions on where to obtain or order waterborne
> varnish to finish the Dacron?
>
I've been considering finishes for the heat shrink Dacron material
myself.  I am a woodworker and I have worked with a lot of different
finishes including waterborne finishes.  I don't think that a
waterborne finish of any kind would work.  For the purpose of coating
heat shrink Dacron the main consideration is that the finish remains
flexible as it provides UV protection.  With this in mind I started
looking on the internet for the finishes used on small airplanes that
use the same heat shrink Dacron.  I found information on these
finishes as it relates to model airplanes here:
http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/covers/v1-1-10.html
The above article references this website which manufactures heat
shrink Dacron as well as finishes for heat shrink Dacron:
http://www.polyfiber.com/.  I haven't come to any conclusions yet,
but there is a lot of information on these two sites that leads me to
believe I am headed in the right direction.  I'd be interested in
knowing what you finally decide to use.

--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "jephryh" <jephryh@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have suggestions on where to obtain or order waterborne
> varnish to finish the Dacron?
>
I just checked the Geodesic Airlolite Boats website again and he does
mention using a waterborne varnish.  In the instructions that came with
my kit he recommends clear urethane varnish which I assumed was an oil
based varnish like marine spar varnish.  So, in answer to your original
question, you can find waterborne varnishes at most woodworking
(Rockler or Woodcraft), paint (Sherwin-Williams) and hardware stores.
Make sure the varnish has added UV protection.

My boat is getting closer. Slowly, but getting there. These are the latest pics.

Sincerely:

Paul T

I've used a water based finish on my first Snowshoe14 and am about to
use the same on my second. Here in Australia I use a product called
Aquacote, distributed by BoatCraft Pacific. It's described as "a
water based two pack Polyurethane Topcoat - Clear". It claims good UV
resistance with three coats.

I tested both oil and water based finishes and was unhappy with
the "yellowing" of the Dacron with the oil based finish. The water
based one gives a really clear finish and highlights the translucency
of the finished Airolite.

If this is your first go with treating Dacron may I suggest the
following.

Use a foam roller and tip off with a brush as you go. Go light on the
first coat. You don't want too much liquid on the Dacron and you need
to avoid it pooling and soaking throgh the weave to the other side -
less is more sort of thing. Use a light behind/under where you're
working - makes it very easy to see where you're up to and which
spots you've missed. Have a "spotter" looking over your shoulder.

Um, I should clarify that the pics are in the photos
section of this group.
Thanks
Paul T
--- second_floor_loft <second_floor_loft@...>
wrote:

> My boat is getting closer. Slowly, but getting
> there. These are the latest pics.
>
> Sincerely:
>
> Paul T
>
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
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that gives answers, not web links.
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I've used a water based finish on my first Snowshoe14 and am about to
use the same on my second. Here in Australia I use a product called
Aquacote, distributed by BoatCraft Pacific. It's described as "a
water based two pack Polyurethane Topcoat - Clear". It claims good UV
resistance with three coats.

I tested both oil and water based finishes and was unhappy with
the "yellowing" of the Dacron with the oil based finish. The water
based one gives a really clear finish and highlights the translucency
of the finished Airolite.

If this is your first go with treating Dacron may I suggest the
following.

Use a foam roller and tip off with a brush as you go. Go light on the
first coat. You don't want too much liquid on the Dacron and you need
to avoid it pooling and soaking throgh the weave to the other side -
less is more sort of thing. Use a light behind/under where you're
working - makes it very easy to see where you're up to and which
spots you've missed. Have a "spotter" looking over your shoulder.

Just saying Hi!

Been lurking for a week or so, looking for tips and bodges before
going for it.

Well it's started and it's not been all plain sailing.

I bought the Snowshoe 14 plans from a guy who had the kit but decided
he was'nt up to the task. Being in the UK [Wales] there are a lot of
things that are different over here to what you would do over there,
so some adaptation on the fly is necessary.

Most of that was easy, setting up stringers etc all went to plan. the
gunnels and stringers were scarfed from lengths of stock pine.

The difficulties started with the ribs. Now I've steamed ribs for
boats before, with my Dad, but the curves we followed were always
wider, and we had a real boatbuilding steamer. But that was then and
this is now. The steamer is long gone so I used a wallpaper stripper
as a steam source, turned a plug to fit a length of 40mm pvc drain
pipe [which will deform after an hour or so] and set about the ribs.

Now, I had decided to split the ribs out of a reasonably straight stem
down in the woods, actually the only stem that was anywhere close to
what I needed. After an afternoon's struggle, I finally gave up, the
stem was so twisted internally, I was never going to get anything
worthwhile from it.

I bit the bullet and bought a piece of ash from my local timber yard.
I new there would be a problem as it was kiln dried. so after cutting
the ribs I soaked them in the rainwater tub for a few days, before
steaming.

They came out of the steamer like spagetti, and bent easily - but not
where I wanted them to. No matter how I tried they just would not go
and at the end of a very frustrating day all I had was a pile of
expensive kindling to show for my efforts.

After much head scratching I remembered that I had a sheet of bendy
ply which might do. I cut a rib 20mmx4mm [c7/8 x 3/16] and it bent in
easily. Too easily if truth be told, all the fibres are orientated
across the rib and not along it. But 'needs must' and so I set the rib
spacing at 6" and forged ahead installing the ribs as half ribs and
epoxying in.

In retrospect I wonder if paring the ash down somewhat and steaming
then gluing them as half ribs might have been a way forward. We'll see
how this effort fares first and then have a think.

I doubled the thickness for the areas under the floorboards and added
extra boards, to stiffen the structure and to give me a kneeling
platform when I'm paddling heeled.

Other minor changes are to revise the thwart position aft a little and
the installation of a kneeling thwart. It's had a sealer coat of water
based varnish, needs a couple more.

Now for the skinning.

Tony

Tony:
Sounds like you've had an adventure in building so
far. I know it's after the fact, but I have a couple
of questions. I haven't tried to steam bend ash yet,
so I really don't know how it works, but I used oak
for my ribs. I wonder if you have access to oak and
might it have been slightly easier to bend?  On my
boat, toward the bow, I was not able to get the ribs
to bend into a tight enough radius, so I put them in
in two pieces with a block glued in between. I know
you are past that point, but for future reference it
might be worth a try.

I look forward to hearing more about your progress.

Sincerely:
Paul T
--- furtling <furtling@...> wrote:

> Just saying Hi!
>
> Been lurking for a week or so, looking for tips and
> bodges before
> going for it.
>
> Well it's started and it's not been all plain
> sailing.
>
> I bought the Snowshoe 14 plans from a guy who had
> the kit but decided
> he was'nt up to the task. Being in the UK [Wales]
> there are a lot of
> things that are different over here to what you
> would do over there,
> so some adaptation on the fly is necessary.
>
> Most of that was easy, setting up stringers etc all
> went to plan. the
> gunnels and stringers were scarfed from lengths of
> stock pine.
>
> The difficulties started with the ribs. Now I've
> steamed ribs for
> boats before, with my Dad, but the curves we
> followed were always
> wider, and we had a real boatbuilding steamer. But
> that was then and
> this is now. The steamer is long gone so I used a
> wallpaper stripper
> as a steam source, turned a plug to fit a length of
> 40mm pvc drain
> pipe [which will deform after an hour or so] and set
> about the ribs.
>
> Now, I had decided to split the ribs out of a
> reasonably straight stem
> down in the woods, actually the only stem that was
> anywhere close to
> what I needed. After an afternoon's struggle, I
> finally gave up, the
> stem was so twisted internally, I was never going to
> get anything
> worthwhile from it.
>
> I bit the bullet and bought a piece of ash from my
> local timber yard.
> I new there would be a problem as it was kiln dried.
> so after cutting
> the ribs I soaked them in the rainwater tub for a
> few days, before
> steaming.
>
> They came out of the steamer like spagetti, and bent
> easily - but not
> where I wanted them to. No matter how I tried they
> just would not go
> and at the end of a very frustrating day all I had
> was a pile of
> expensive kindling to show for my efforts.
>
> After much head scratching I remembered that I had a
> sheet of bendy
> ply which might do. I cut a rib 20mmx4mm [c7/8 x
> 3/16] and it bent in
> easily. Too easily if truth be told, all the fibres
> are orientated
> across the rib and not along it. But 'needs must'
> and so I set the rib
> spacing at 6" and forged ahead installing the ribs
> as half ribs and
> epoxying in.
>
> In retrospect I wonder if paring the ash down
> somewhat and steaming
> then gluing them as half ribs might have been a way
> forward. We'll see
> how this effort fares first and then have a think.
>
> I doubled the thickness for the areas under the
> floorboards and added
> extra boards, to stiffen the structure and to give
> me a kneeling
> platform when I'm paddling heeled.
>
> Other minor changes are to revise the thwart
> position aft a little and
> the installation of a kneeling thwart. It's had a
> sealer coat of water
> based varnish, needs a couple more.
>
> Now for the skinning.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>



      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz

--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, noneof yourbusiness
<second_floor_loft@...> wrote:
>
> Tony:
> Sounds like you've had an adventure in building so
> far. I know it's after the fact, but I have a couple
> of questions. I haven't tried to steam bend ash yet,
> so I really don't know how it works, but I used oak
> for my ribs. I wonder if you have access to oak and
> might it have been slightly easier to bend?  On my
> boat, toward the bow, I was not able to get the ribs
> to bend into a tight enough radius, so I put them in
> in two pieces with a block glued in between. I know
> you are past that point, but for future reference it
> might be worth a try.
>
> I look forward to hearing more about your progress.
>
> Sincerely:
> Paul T


American white oak might be reasonably easy to steam bend, since it
has a slightly different internal structure to european oak -
certainly the oak we have in Wales Q. Petrea can be a real sod.

My thoughts, for what it's worth, if you cannot steam bend ash into
the boat, then there's very little else that will do as well.

With hindsight, what I should have done was put them in as half ribs
throughout, and maybe pared the thickness down somewhat, and made up
the shortfall in strength through adding more.

But this project is step one in the learning curve for the next build.
> --- furtling <furtling@...> wrote:
>
> > Just saying Hi!
> >
> > Been lurking for a week or so, looking for tips and
> > bodges before
> > going for it.
> >
> > Well it's started and it's not been all plain
> > sailing.
> >
> > I bought the Snowshoe 14 plans from a guy who had
> > the kit but decided
> > he was'nt up to the task. Being in the UK [Wales]
> > there are a lot of
> > things that are different over here to what you
> > would do over there,
> > so some adaptation on the fly is necessary.
> >
> > Most of that was easy, setting up stringers etc all
> > went to plan. the
> > gunnels and stringers were scarfed from lengths of
> > stock pine.
> >
> > The difficulties started with the ribs. Now I've
> > steamed ribs for
> > boats before, with my Dad, but the curves we
> > followed were always
> > wider, and we had a real boatbuilding steamer. But
> > that was then and
> > this is now. The steamer is long gone so I used a
> > wallpaper stripper
> > as a steam source, turned a plug to fit a length of
> > 40mm pvc drain
> > pipe [which will deform after an hour or so] and set
> > about the ribs.
> >
> > Now, I had decided to split the ribs out of a
> > reasonably straight stem
> > down in the woods, actually the only stem that was
> > anywhere close to
> > what I needed. After an afternoon's struggle, I
> > finally gave up, the
> > stem was so twisted internally, I was never going to
> > get anything
> > worthwhile from it.
> >
> > I bit the bullet and bought a piece of ash from my
> > local timber yard.
> > I new there would be a problem as it was kiln dried.
> > so after cutting
> > the ribs I soaked them in the rainwater tub for a
> > few days, before
> > steaming.
> >
> > They came out of the steamer like spagetti, and bent
> > easily - but not
> > where I wanted them to. No matter how I tried they
> > just would not go
> > and at the end of a very frustrating day all I had
> > was a pile of
> > expensive kindling to show for my efforts.
> >
> > After much head scratching I remembered that I had a
> > sheet of bendy
> > ply which might do. I cut a rib 20mmx4mm [c7/8 x
> > 3/16] and it bent in
> > easily. Too easily if truth be told, all the fibres
> > are orientated
> > across the rib and not along it. But 'needs must'
> > and so I set the rib
> > spacing at 6" and forged ahead installing the ribs
> > as half ribs and
> > epoxying in.
> >
> > In retrospect I wonder if paring the ash down
> > somewhat and steaming
> > then gluing them as half ribs might have been a way
> > forward. We'll see
> > how this effort fares first and then have a think.
> >
> > I doubled the thickness for the areas under the
> > floorboards and added
> > extra boards, to stiffen the structure and to give
> > me a kneeling
> > platform when I'm paddling heeled.
> >
> > Other minor changes are to revise the thwart
> > position aft a little and
> > the installation of a kneeling thwart. It's had a
> > sealer coat of water
> > based varnish, needs a couple more.
> >
> > Now for the skinning.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>

Paul,
I have had very good success using "boiling water" to bend white ash,
instead of steam.  I started to built a "steam pipe" from PVC,  but
before starting the steaming routine, I tried a trial piece of ash
(3/16" x 3/4" x 48")in the capped 4-foot PVC pipe, using "boiling
water" from my MR COFFEE perc coffee maker.  Low and behold it worked
great!  A 4-foot x 3" diameter PVC pipe takes almost exactly 12 cups
of MR COFFEE boiling water. Immersing the strips for about 3 minutes
provides strips that are pliable/formable for building my ARROW-14
canoe (see my photos in these files under:  "moszczak"). Wrapping
some insulation around the PVC pipe allowed me to bend 3 strips,
before having to dump the water, and recharge the tube with the next
shot of "boiling water."   The really nice thing about the ash is
that it drys very quickly.  Indeed, you only have about 2 minutes to
work the ribs, in place against the stringers, to clamp in your
canoe, before they become dry.
My take...if I don't have to deal with "steam" then it's much easier
for me.

I've also bent white oak strips, same size, 3/16 x 3/4 x 4feet, using
the same "boiling technique"...works just as well,  but they dry at a
slower rate.

Mike ("moszczak" in the photo files)


--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, noneof yourbusiness
<second_floor_loft@...> wrote:
>
> Tony:
> Sounds like you've had an adventure in building so
> far. I know it's after the fact, but I have a couple
> of questions. I haven't tried to steam bend ash yet,
> so I really don't know how it works, but I used oak
> for my ribs. I wonder if you have access to oak and
> might it have been slightly easier to bend?  On my
> boat, toward the bow, I was not able to get the ribs
> to bend into a tight enough radius, so I put them in
> in two pieces with a block glued in between. I know
> you are past that point, but for future reference it
> might be worth a try.
>
> I look forward to hearing more about your progress.
>
> Sincerely:
> Paul T
> --- furtling <furtling@...> wrote:
>
> > Just saying Hi!
> >
> > Been lurking for a week or so, looking for tips and
> > bodges before
> > going for it.
> >
> > Well it's started and it's not been all plain
> > sailing.
> >
> > I bought the Snowshoe 14 plans from a guy who had
> > the kit but decided
> > he was'nt up to the task. Being in the UK [Wales]
> > there are a lot of
> > things that are different over here to what you
> > would do over there,
> > so some adaptation on the fly is necessary.
> >
> > Most of that was easy, setting up stringers etc all
> > went to plan. the
> > gunnels and stringers were scarfed from lengths of
> > stock pine.
> >
> > The difficulties started with the ribs. Now I've
> > steamed ribs for
> > boats before, with my Dad, but the curves we
> > followed were always
> > wider, and we had a real boatbuilding steamer. But
> > that was then and
> > this is now. The steamer is long gone so I used a
> > wallpaper stripper
> > as a steam source, turned a plug to fit a length of
> > 40mm pvc drain
> > pipe [which will deform after an hour or so] and set
> > about the ribs.
> >
> > Now, I had decided to split the ribs out of a
> > reasonably straight stem
> > down in the woods, actually the only stem that was
> > anywhere close to
> > what I needed. After an afternoon's struggle, I
> > finally gave up, the
> > stem was so twisted internally, I was never going to
> > get anything
> > worthwhile from it.
> >
> > I bit the bullet and bought a piece of ash from my
> > local timber yard.
> > I new there would be a problem as it was kiln dried.
> > so after cutting
> > the ribs I soaked them in the rainwater tub for a
> > few days, before
> > steaming.
> >
> > They came out of the steamer like spagetti, and bent
> > easily - but not
> > where I wanted them to. No matter how I tried they
> > just would not go
> > and at the end of a very frustrating day all I had
> > was a pile of
> > expensive kindling to show for my efforts.
> >
> > After much head scratching I remembered that I had a
> > sheet of bendy
> > ply which might do. I cut a rib 20mmx4mm [c7/8 x
> > 3/16] and it bent in
> > easily. Too easily if truth be told, all the fibres
> > are orientated
> > across the rib and not along it. But 'needs must'
> > and so I set the rib
> > spacing at 6" and forged ahead installing the ribs
> > as half ribs and
> > epoxying in.
> >
> > In retrospect I wonder if paring the ash down
> > somewhat and steaming
> > then gluing them as half ribs might have been a way
> > forward. We'll see
> > how this effort fares first and then have a think.
> >
> > I doubled the thickness for the areas under the
> > floorboards and added
> > extra boards, to stiffen the structure and to give
> > me a kneeling
> > platform when I'm paddling heeled.
> >
> > Other minor changes are to revise the thwart
> > position aft a little and
> > the installation of a kneeling thwart. It's had a
> > sealer coat of water
> > based varnish, needs a couple more.
> >
> > Now for the skinning.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?
fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>

I'm planning to use exterior latex paint on the outside of my Arrow 14
and wonder if I should have to apply the water-based varnish to the
outside of the Dacron before I put the latex paint on or if the latex
paint alone would be enough. Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions?

I don't know about the Dacron fabric...but every "paint store expert"
I've ever spoken to recommends removing as much varnish as possible(
from wood) before applying latex as a paint coat. My suggestion is to
try the latex on a small swatch of the dacron alone and see if it
remains water tight after 48 to 72 hours of drying...just my thots!
Mike

--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "millhavenguy" <drp122@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm planning to use exterior latex paint on the outside of my Arrow
14
> and wonder if I should have to apply the water-based varnish to the
> outside of the Dacron before I put the latex paint on or if the latex
> paint alone would be enough. Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions?
>

OK, I've put it off long enough and am getting started on my Arrow 14.
Platt says to use heavy cardboard for the moulds (or cheap luan) and
I've found some really nice thick stuff from a local bike shop. What
have folks here used? Will the cardboard be OK? should I reinforce the
stringer/gunwhale cutouts with wood?
  Thanks, David

----- Original Message -----

From: millhavenguy

To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 10:24 AM

Subject: [Airolite_Boats] Cardboard moulds?

OK, I've put it off long enough and am getting started on my Arrow 14.
Platt says to use heavy cardboard for the moulds (or cheap luan) and
I've found some really nice thick stuff from a local bike shop. What
have folks here used? Will the cardboard be OK? should I reinforce the
stringer/gunwhale cutouts with wood?
Thanks, David

David:

Can't answer for the cardboard. I too used Luan. There
is something to be said for not having to cut out a
second set of mold stations if you should decide to
build another. I second the statement about the wire
for the stringers.Reinforcement of the cardboard
stations would be necessary in my opinion. Having said
that, I've been plodding along with my Classic 12 for
several months, couple of hours here, couple of hours
there... It's not about how soon I get it done. It's
more about something relaxing in the evenings. So an
extra bit of time added here or there wouldn't be an
issue in the over all scheme of things.

Sincerely:
Paul T
--- millhavenguy <drp122@...> wrote:

> OK, I've put it off long enough and am getting
> started on my Arrow 14.
> Platt says to use heavy cardboard for the moulds (or
> cheap luan) and
> I've found some really nice thick stuff from a local
> bike shop. What
> have folks here used? Will the cardboard be OK?
> should I reinforce the
> stringer/gunwhale cutouts with wood?
>  Thanks, David
>
>




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--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "millhavenguy" <drp122@...> wrote:
>
> OK, I've put it off long enough and am getting started on my Arrow 14.
> Platt says to use heavy cardboard for the moulds (or cheap luan) and
> I've found some really nice thick stuff from a local bike shop. What
> have folks here used? Will the cardboard be OK? should I reinforce the
> stringer/gunwhale cutouts with wood?
>  Thanks, David
>

Like the others I went with 4mm ply. Found I needed the extra strength
for wiring down.