Ted,

The heat and bond is only to hold the fabric in position as you shrink it.  I am
not sure that the heat and bond will adhere correctly to the varnish.  Once the
fabric is applied it will be finished and that will waterproof that area.

I suggest that you set up a test by varnishing one half of a scrap stringer and
see what happens.

It is always best to check before you do something that is not reverseable.

I did find that kevlar roving was not necessary on my boat.  I streched a
Westport 8 to 10 feet and increased the beam 20%.
The idea for these boats came from Mr. Monfort's experience with ultralight
aircraft which have to deal with much higher stress than the boats.

Good luck,

Browne Altman

ted , heat & bond should be applied directly to wood .(Just finished a
12" Whitehall classic.)
        Monfort,manual , video,suggest that you mask of the area that
the heat pond is applied to keep the wood clean while  applying the
finish. remove tape,wipe down with acetone before applying the
h&b.enjoy building your boat,they are great. my thoughts on roving
which is a pain in the butt,is to use it as instructed if you are
going to transport it on top of your car. I just logged 5000 miles on
my Whitehall.on top of my.Saturn being towed behind my RV at high way
speeds. there is a lot of flexing at that air speed. A lot different
that being in the water.
   scotty
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Browne
Altman<1elrodqfudpucker@...> wrote:
>
>
> Ted,
>
> The heat and bond is only to hold the fabric in position as you shrink it. I
> am not sure that the heat and bond will adhere correctly to the varnish.
> Once the fabric is applied it will be finished and that will waterproof that
> area.
>
> I suggest that you set up a test by varnishing one half of a scrap stringer
> and see what happens.
>
> It is always best to check before you do something that is not reverseable.
>
> I did find that kevlar roving was not necessary on my boat. I streched a
> Westport 8 to 10 feet and increased the beam 20%.
> The idea for these boats came from Mr. Monfort's experience with ultralight
> aircraft which have to deal with much higher stress than the boats.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Browne Altman
>
>

August:

On my build (again the Classic 12) I measured the plan drawing and did a simple
scale up on paper. For instance if the drawing was 12 inches long and the boat
is 12 feet... one inch to the foot. Therefore if the ribs appear to be say, 1/2
inch apart then it means they are 6 inches apart at full size. Then, based on
the location of other "knowns" such s the station molds I located the ribs. It
takes a little time, but it's not too complicated. The best way is to just start
building things and not get too tied up in the details before you start. Things
become clear as you proceed. Having not seem your plans, I don't know what it
would scale out to  but that's the general idea. And you can always clamp small
pieces of rib stock in place until you get it to look right, mark the positions
and go from there.

Sincerely:
Paul T

Does that include wasted wood from knots and bad grain, or does that apply to
absolutely clear wood?

--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, bschless@... wrote:
>
> The wood is 2 each 2 x 12 by 12 foot planks for a 10 footer plus a little
> scrap and a 1/4 sheet of 3/8 marine plywood..
>
> Beau Schless
> President/CEO
> NOTEbookS Library Automation Systems
> HTTP://WWW.RASCO.COM
> PH: 1.(978) 443-2996
>
>
>
> "bluegrapes2001" <bluegrapes2001@...>
> Sent by: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
> 06/07/2009 01:00 PM
> Please respond to
> Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> To
> Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
> cc
>
> Subject
> [Airolite_Boats] Approximite building cost of a Whitehall Jr?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm thinking of building an aerolite boat, because I want to build a
> simple rowboat I can lug around; how much would the wood costs be for the
> boat?
>

Bill-
you need to go to the LINKS section at the Yahoo Group home
page and read the several narratives and logs about building
the boats. Especially noted are many details to the process
and techniques of bending the ribs in these naratives.
Scott

> William Greenley wrote:
>
> I am puzzled by people talking about a couple of big boards. The ones
> you get at building supply stores are kiln dried lumber, fine for long
> mostly straight pieces, but what do you use that is readily available
> for the ribs with their sharp bends?
>
> Bill
>

-----Original Message-----
From: AUGUST HAHN
Sent: Jun 12, 2009 12:13 AM
To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Airolite_Boats] Re: plans questions

Thank you,guess I could figure it out like that it,s just that for what I paid for the plans  was exspectng a lttle more accurate details

---

From: second_floor_loft <second_floor_loft@yahoo.com>
To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:30:35 PM
Subject: [Airolite_Boats] Re: plans questions

August:

On my build (again the Classic 12) I measured the plan drawing and did a simple scale up on paper. For instance if the drawing was 12 inches long and the boat is 12 feet... one inch to the foot. Therefore if the ribs appear to be say, 1/2 inch apart then it means they are 6 inches apart at full size. Then, based on the location of other "knowns" such s the station molds I located the ribs. It takes a little time, but it's not too complicated. The best way is to just start building things and not get too tied up in the details before you start. Things become clear as you proceed. Having not seem your plans, I don't know what it would scale out to but that's the general idea. And you can always clamp small pieces of rib stock in place until you get it to look right, mark the positions and go from there.

Sincerely:
Paul T

I hope my experience can help here, (I've built 4 Snowshoe 12's and one 16 and
am a master boatbuilder). I've used freshly felled lumber, as well as soaked and
steamed well-seasoned wood.

The thin strips required for these ribs make soaking a very good option,
over-night in a container, (PVC pipe, tub or wrapped in plastic). I've had less
luck steaming these thin strips, they cool and dry too quickly. More trouble
than it's worth.

What is most important is the selection of timber, straight-grained, fibrous
species are best. I've used native oak and acacia where I built my canoes in
Guatemala, C.A. and would think that white oak would be one of the best species
for this in the U.S., although there must be many other options depending on
your regional species.

A small  detail which helps prevent splitting and breakage is to bevel or round
off the cornrers of your rib strips before soaking. I run mine over a router
with a small radius cutter to get uniformity but a hand plane and/or sandpaper
works fine.

To reduce the number of clamps required for the ribbing process I bend the ribs
in and clamp them then replace the clamps by twisting short lengths of plastic
coated copper wire, (experiment with gauge), which hold the ribs in place on the
stringers until they dry.
The "twisty ties" can be used again when gluing the ribs to the stringers.


  --- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "William Greenley" <greenley@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, will do that.
>
>
>
> From: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Scott Perkins
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:21 AM
> To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Airolite_Boats] focus on ribs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill-
> you need to go to the LINKS section at the Yahoo Group home
> page and read the several narratives and logs about building
> the boats. Especially noted are many details to the process
> and techniques of bending the ribs in these naratives.
> Scott
>
> > William Greenley wrote:
> >
> > I am puzzled by people talking about a couple of big boards. The ones
> > you get at building supply stores are kiln dried lumber, fine for long
> > mostly straight pieces, but what do you use that is readily available
> > for the ribs with their sharp bends?
> >
> > Bill
> >
>

There is a tree called SweetGum  which has a very unique
characteristic.  It wont break and cant be split
with a hydralic log splitter.

I was clearing some trees with a large Track Loader
CAT 963  a few summers ago and the neat thing to do
was to push the trees over so that the root balls
pop out of the ground and then just push
the trees out of the way.

These Sweetgum trees... Their trunks would bend
at the top of the soil and the 35000 pound Cat
track loader would skim the bark off the trunk
as I rode over the tree thinking the root had
popped out.  When I got past the tree, the
tree trunk sprung back almost straight up.

Get what I am saying here ?  If ribs were made
of this stuff I dont think they would break.

The tree acts like it is made of rubber or something.

I hate them.  They have bark that looks like oak or
hickory ( which I thought they were) and I had a
whole load of sectioned trunk pieces dumped off
at my property to be split up into firewood by me
with my 20 ton log splitter and it wouldnt split them.

Here's an article from Woodenboat online about bending timber which might be
helpful:

http://www.woodenboat-digital.com/woodenboat/20070910/

--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "bunyipxx" <bunyipxx@...> wrote:
>
> I hope my experience can help here, (I've built 4 Snowshoe 12's and one 16 and
am a master boatbuilder). I've used freshly felled lumber, as well as soaked and
steamed well-seasoned wood.
>
> The thin strips required for these ribs make soaking a very good option,
over-night in a container, (PVC pipe, tub or wrapped in plastic). I've had less
luck steaming these thin strips, they cool and dry too quickly. More trouble
than it's worth.
>
> What is most important is the selection of timber, straight-grained, fibrous
species are best. I've used native oak and acacia where I built my canoes in
Guatemala, C.A. and would think that white oak would be one of the best species
for this in the U.S., although there must be many other options depending on
your regional species.
>
> A small  detail which helps prevent splitting and breakage is to bevel or
round off the cornrers of your rib strips before soaking. I run mine over a
router with a small radius cutter to get uniformity but a hand plane and/or
sandpaper works fine.
>
> To reduce the number of clamps required for the ribbing process I bend the
ribs in and clamp them then replace the clamps by twisting short lengths of
plastic coated copper wire, (experiment with gauge), which hold the ribs in
place on the stringers until they dry.
> The "twisty ties" can be used again when gluing the ribs to the stringers.
>
>
>  --- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "William Greenley" <greenley@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, will do that.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of Scott Perkins
> > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:21 AM
> > To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Airolite_Boats] focus on ribs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill-
> > you need to go to the LINKS section at the Yahoo Group home
> > page and read the several narratives and logs about building
> > the boats. Especially noted are many details to the process
> > and techniques of bending the ribs in these naratives.
> > Scott
> >
> > > William Greenley wrote:
> > >
> > > I am puzzled by people talking about a couple of big boards. The ones
> > > you get at building supply stores are kiln dried lumber, fine for long
> > > mostly straight pieces, but what do you use that is readily available
> > > for the ribs with their sharp bends?
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> >
>

I built the Arrow-14, using long straight grain, white-ash for all ribs.
I was able to get relatively freshly cut ash from a local mill
(about three weeks after cutting).

The ribs were 5/8" wide x 3/16" thk x 4.0ft long....lightly sanded after band
saw cutting, and just prior to soaking.

This ash was easy to bend, structurally strong when epoxied to the stringers
(also ash), was light weight...and ash is relatively impervious to moisture in
most water/canoe craft.

Rather than steaming the ribs, I soaked the ribs for about 3 minutes in boiling
water, using a capped piece of (3 inch dia) 4.5' of PVC pipe, capped on both
ends.

The water was supplied by my Mr. Coffee maker.  I only soaked two or three ribs
at a time:  two ribs were soaking, while one was removed with BBQ tongs and
worked by hand to the bent radius, rib shape and then C-clamped to the correct
stringer (station location).  Since the soaked ash drys very quickly, you only
have about two minutes to shape the rib by hand before it gets too cold/dry to
work any more. I was able to shape all but the last two rib stations, as Platt's
plans call for.

Hope this experience helps you...but the "Boiling water soaking" method worked
for me.  (see my photos in :"moszczak_Arrow_14" of this web site).

Hi,
I am building the Snowshoe 12, and have steamed, bent, and clamped in place the
first two ribs. The plans call for epoxy to secure the ribs to the stringers.
Two other sources of info I'm consulting use artificial sinew to bind together
the ribs & stringers. I am guessing the sinew is used because it is more
traditional and makes a more flexible boat.

Has anyone here used both? Opinions on either method and its advantages?

I don't know much about sinew, but I would go with the epoxy to secure the ribs
to the stringers...my test pieces showed that the wood cohesion tended to fail
before the epoxy bond fails...the last thing I would want is any kind of
"flexing" that sinew might provide.  I was very impressed with Platt's two part
epoxy that came with the Arrow-14 kit. If the sinew caused flexing, then the
dacron skin would also warp...not a good thing.

Just my opinion...but build it the way Platt suggested before you deviate from
the original plan....Platt put a lot of good work, up front, to make sure your
first build is a success. Stay on plan!

Mike (photos in :"moszczak_ Arrow-14")


<petroglyph@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I am building the Snowshoe 12, and have steamed, bent, and clamped in place
the first two ribs. The plans call for epoxy to secure the ribs to the
stringers. Two other sources of info I'm consulting use artificial sinew to bind
together the ribs & stringers. I am guessing the sinew is used because it is
more traditional and makes a more flexible boat.
>
> Has anyone here used both? Opinions on either method and its advantages?
>

What is artificial sinew ?

Scott


"petroglyph@..." wrote:
> Hi,
> I am building the Snowshoe 12, and have steamed, bent, and clamped in place
the first two ribs. The plans call for epoxy to secure the ribs to the
stringers. Two other sources of info I'm consulting use artificial sinew to bind
together the ribs & stringers. I am guessing the sinew is used because it is
more traditional and makes a more flexible boat.
>
> Has anyone here used both? Opinions on either method and its advantages?
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1254 - Release Date: 1/31/08 8:30
PM

The thing that I remember about Buffalo sinew used by American
indians to hold their stone points on arrows and spears
was that it shrank as is dried out and became very very
tight.  I dont see that happening with waxed cord.

However if unwaxed cord was used to tie joints and
later the cord was painted and soaked  with epoxy,
then you basically have linear rovings encased in
epoxy in the modern tradition.   Maybe the cord
should be applied wet so that it my tighten up
as it dries.
Scott

Patrick Dengate wrote:
>
> Artificial sinew is flat, waxed cord made from nylon or polyester that
> mimics natural sinew. It's used by leather workers, weavers, and kayak
> builders. It is the recommended material to bind together ribs and
> stringers in "The Solo Carry" by Hilary Russell in Woodenboat magazine
> (issues205 & 206), and in the book, "Building Skin-On-Frame Boats" by
> Robert Morris, who also operates the Brewery Creek Boat Shop in
> Vancouver, BC.
>
> I thought the WHOLE POINT of a skin-on-frame boat, besides weight, is
> that it is flexible, and merges with the medium through which it
> moves?
>
> --- On Mon, 6/15/09, Scott Perkins <2scott@...> wrote:
>
>      From: Scott Perkins <2scott@...>
>      Subject: Re: [Airolite_Boats] RIBS: Glue or Sinew?
>      To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
>      Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 8:00 PM
>
>      What is artificial sinew ?
>
>      Scott
>
>      "petroglyph@rocketma il.com" wrote:
>      > Hi,
>      > I am building the Snowshoe 12, and have steamed, bent, and
>      clamped in place the first two ribs. The plans call for
>      epoxy to secure the ribs to the stringers. Two other sources
>      of info I'm consulting use artificial sinew to bind together
>      the ribs & stringers. I am guessing the sinew is used
>      because it is more traditional and makes a more flexible
>      boat.
>      >
>      > Has anyone here used both? Opinions on either method and
>      its advantages?
>      >
>      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
>      >
>      > Yahoo! Groups Links
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > --
>      > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>      > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1254 -
>      Release Date: 1/31/08 8:30 PM
>
>
>
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1254 - Release Date:
> 1/31/08 8:30 PM

My understanding is that one of the main points of the Aleutian baidarka and (to
a lesser degree) Greenland kayak building traditions was to use high flexibility
to achieve seaworthiness and carrying capacity beyond what a boat of such modest
volume could otherwise hope to achieve.  Platt Monfort's Geodesic Airolite
method was designed to create a very light-weight boat that is within the
financial and technical abilities of a neophyte to build.  Platt leveraged the
methods long used to construct fabric-covered aircraft wings, a medium that is
by design fairly rigid, relative to a baidarka.  Examples in Morris' book (which
I have) show a great deal of integrity to the traditional design paradigms, as
Monfort's plans and instructions do to his own concepts.  Despite some
superficial similarities, the two design philosophies differ considerably.  I
would suggest that you decide what kind of boat you want to build, and stay
reasonably true to the appropriate concepts for that design.  If you want to
build a more traditional SOF craft, allow me to recommend (in addition to
Morris's excellent book) "The Aleutian Kayak" by Wolfgang Brink (ISBN
0-07-007893-9).  While not traditional with respect to materials, George Dyson's
"Baidarka" may also be worth a read.  Attempts to improve a design through
improvisation are laudable, but are best based on a thorough knowledge of a
basic design that (in my opinion) can only come from building it.

-Roland

--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Dengate <petroglyph@...> wrote:
>
> Artificial sinew is flat, waxed cord made from nylon or polyester that mimics
natural sinew. It's used by leather workers, weavers, and kayak builders.. It is
the recommended material to bind together ribs and stringers in "The Solo Carry"
by Hilary Russell in Woodenboat magazine (issues205 & 206), and in the book,
"Building Skin-On-Frame Boats" by Robert Morris, who also operates the Brewery
Creek Boat Shop in Vancouver, BC.
>
> I thought the WHOLE POINT of a skin-on-frame boat, besides weight, is that it
is flexible, and merges with the medium through which it moves?
>
> --- On Mon, 6/15/09, Scott Perkins <2scott@...> wrote:
>
> From: Scott Perkins <2scott@...>
> Subject: Re: [Airolite_Boats] RIBS: Glue or Sinew?
> To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 8:00 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       What is artificial sinew ?
>
>
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> "petroglyph@rocketma il.com" wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
> > I am building the Snowshoe 12, and have steamed, bent, and clamped in place
the first two ribs. The plans call for epoxy to secure the ribs to the
stringers. Two other sources of info I'm consulting use artificial sinew to bind
together the ribs & stringers. I am guessing the sinew is used because it is
more traditional and makes a more flexible boat.
>
> >
>
> > Has anyone here used both? Opinions on either method and its advantages?
>
> >
>
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> >
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>
> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1254 - Release Date: 1/31/08
8:30 PM
>

OK this is a bit off topic here in the boat group but Platt did tell me that he
thought the Airolite system would apply to bicycles as well. I've added some
photos of a recumbent tricycle with a wooden frame that would probably work well
with fabric. The covering in this case was something other than fabric however.
The website where I saw this is German or Dutch so I'm not sure of the specifics
but just giving the idea for something I've thought of fabricating. doug

I am big into teardrop trailers and have long thought of making a tear using
this technique.
I pull my tear with a small car and weight is an issue.
Do you think this Tricycle has a wood frame? It does not not look like there are
steal able ideas here.
My current Tear is all wood and does not have a frame, which makes it unusual.

dave


--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "recyc" <d.greaser@...> wrote:
>
> OK this is a bit off topic here in the boat group but Platt did tell me that
he thought the Airolite system would apply to bicycles as well. I've added some
photos of a recumbent tricycle with a wooden frame that would probably work well
with fabric. The covering in this case was something other than fabric however.
The website where I saw this is German or Dutch so I'm not sure of the specifics
but just giving the idea for something I've thought of fabricating. doug
>

Oops, it DOES look like there are stealable ideas here.

--- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "dave griffith" <dwgriff1@...> wrote:
>
> I am big into teardrop trailers and have long thought of making a tear using
this technique.
> I pull my tear with a small car and weight is an issue.
> Do you think this Tricycle has a wood frame? It does not not look like there
are steal able ideas here.
> My current Tear is all wood and does not have a frame, which makes it unusual.
>
> dave
>
>
> --- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "recyc" <d.greaser@> wrote:
> >
> > OK this is a bit off topic here in the boat group but Platt did tell me that
he thought the Airolite system would apply to bicycles as well. I've added some
photos of a recumbent tricycle with a wooden frame that would probably work well
with fabric. The covering in this case was something other than fabric however.
The website where I saw this is German or Dutch so I'm not sure of the specifics
but just giving the idea for something I've thought of fabricating. doug
> >
>