DDD would have no reference to Haldi because no one has suggested that he
is mentioned in the Bible, which is the criteria for inclusion in DDD.
I mentioned in a previous email which seems not to have arrived at
ANE-2 that Haldi is the Urartean god mentioned
in Sargon's 8th campaign. That inscription contains a very detailed
Kultinventar of Haldi's temple and also mentions a Mrs Haldi, Bagbarta
i$tar$u (l. 423; I call her affectionately Big Bertha).
Victor



On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

> Found no God of this name in RLA, but references to these
>
> Chadatashshi, Heth. Göttern ame ... 'der des Rufens' (Laroche), and
> Chaldi'asira, Gottheit (urartäischer Herkunft?) (Edzard).
>
> In COS III, p. 219, an Aramaic Stela Fragment (the Bukan
> inscription), a God Chaldi is mentioned together with Hadad: e.g. l.
> 11: 'May Hadad and Chaldi overturn his throne'. A note describes
> Chaldi as an Urartean god of war, and Paul E. Zimanski describes him
> as the principal god of Urartu--however without Hurrian connotations:
> Se Zimamsky, 'The Kingdom of Urartu in Eastern Anatolia', CANE II
> (1995, pp. 1135-1146, pp. 1144-5.
>
> You will need to provide more solid evidence of 1: occurrences of
> this god that predates the first millennium BCE (Urartu belongs to
> that milennium and not the 2nd).
> 2. You need to watch more closely what we know about this god from
> Urartean inscriptions.
> 3. You have to find evidence of emerging monotheism among the
> Urateans of the 1st millennium.
>
> As to 3, it is not absolutely impossible as we are down into a period
> with emerging monotheism all over the ANE: See more on this Herbert
> Niehr, Der Höchste Gott. Alttestamentlicher JHWH-Glaube im Kontext
> syrisch-kanaanäischer Religion des 1. Jahrtausends v.Chr, BZAW:
> Berlin, de Gruyter 1990.
>
> DDD has no entry dealing with this God
>
> NPLemche
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I'm not a Hurrologist and don't worship their gods, but isn't Haldi an
Urartian god, the one mentioned in Sargon's 8th campaign?
Victor



On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Patrick Ryan wrote:

> Ariel,
>
> I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism.
>
> Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a
monotheistic system or one moving towards monotheism?
>
> Patrick
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: victor avigdor hurowitz<mailto:victor@...>
>   To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
>   Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:02 AM
>   Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new(?) beginning
>
>
>   Woe Ariel, Ariel!
>   That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
>   in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
>   "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
>   the Bible a rest? We should start off
>   by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
>   list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
>   Eastern religions outside of Israel";  Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
>   East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
>   the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
>   insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
>   cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
>   off any of these discussions,
>   but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
>   round in the biblical historicity controversary.
>   Victor
>
>   Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
>   Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
>   Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
>   Beer-Sheva, Israel
>
>
>
>
>   On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:
>
>   > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
>   >
>   > -----<snip>-----
>   > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
>   > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
>   > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
>   > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
>   > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
>   > -----<snip to end>-----
>   >
>   > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
>   >
>   > -- Don Mills [London, England]
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   SPONSORED LINKS
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Ancient<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Ancient&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=Univer\
sity+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=i__45E9H9auv49UTibKO4g>  University of
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ient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=YnBSDXrWnRu6PQo-N0zxtg>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     a..  Visit your group "ANE-2<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2>" on the
web.
>
>     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Service<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>

Thank you for the detailed answer. In my drowsy state, I misstated Hurrian
rather than Urartian.

I am not proposing Haldi as a monotheistic god only wondering if someone else
has.

I thought someone researching early monotheistic tendencies might have come
across some indications.

Perhaps my question was rather naïve.


Patrick
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Niels Peter Lemche<mailto:np13867@...>
   To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:52 AM
   Subject: [ANE-2] The God Haldi


   Found no God of this name in RLA, but references to these

   Chadatashshi, Heth. Göttern ame ... 'der des Rufens' (Laroche), and
   Chaldi'asira, Gottheit (urartäischer Herkunft?) (Edzard).

   In COS III, p. 219, an Aramaic Stela Fragment (the Bukan
   inscription), a God Chaldi is mentioned together with Hadad: e.g. l.
   11: 'May Hadad and Chaldi overturn his throne'. A note describes
   Chaldi as an Urartean god of war, and Paul E. Zimanski describes him
   as the principal god of Urartu--however without Hurrian connotations:
   Se Zimamsky, 'The Kingdom of Urartu in Eastern Anatolia', CANE II
   (1995, pp. 1135-1146, pp. 1144-5.

   You will need to provide more solid evidence of 1: occurrences of
   this god that predates the first millennium BCE (Urartu belongs to
   that milennium and not the 2nd).
   2. You need to watch more closely what we know about this god from
   Urartean inscriptions.
   3. You have to find evidence of emerging monotheism among the
   Urarteans of the 1st millennium.

   As to 3, it is not absolutely impossible as we are down into a period
   with emerging monotheism all over the ANE: See more on this Herbert
   Niehr, Der Höchste Gott. Alttestamentlicher JHWH-Glaube im Kontext
   syrisch-kanaanäischer Religion des 1. Jahrtausends v.Chr, BZAW:
   Berlin, de Gruyter 1990.

   DDD has no entry dealing with this God

   NPLemche





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear friends,

I agree with Paul James Cowie,

Me too I started to work on my Membership profile at yahoo (I shall still add
more) and indeed me too I think that this is a wonderful opportunity to get to
know each other better. This may also help to bring the right people into
contact with each other and stir more in depth discussion in the different
relevant fields of research.

These are great tools and will undoubtedly help to enhance the quality of this
new list.

Best wishes
Peter van der Veen PhD
Arbeitsgruppe für Biblische Archäologie

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Paul James Cowie
   To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:49 AM
   Subject: [ANE-2] Reminder: Subject Headings, Profiles


   I realise that it's very early days, but could we all make a big effort to
ensure that the
   subject headings for posts are maintained carefully....? In other words, if
you're starting a
   new thread from a reply, please change the subject heading accordingly.

   Another matter: Yahoo! allows group members to build up a Member Profile. This
is a
   great aid a). in formulating your online presence, b). in allowing other
contributors to
   understand a little bit about you, where you're coming from.... Can I
personally urge all list
   members to ensure that their member profiles get filled in and are updated on
a regular
   basis?

   -----------------------

   Paul James Cowie
   BA Hons (Sydney) GradDipEd MA (Macquarie) PhD in candidato

   London, England and Sydney, Australia

   Editor, http://www.ancientneareast.net/
   Area Supervisor, Tel Rehov Excavations, Israel

   PhD Candidate, Department of Ancient History and Archaeology, Macquarie
   University, Sydney, Australia










   SPONSORED LINKS Near  Ancient  University of chicago


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

     a..  Visit your group "ANE-2" on the web.

     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, Niels Peter,

I can thinik of one very good reason to study the ANE. Nothing begins in a
vacuum; time and again, the origins of modern practices track back to the ANE.

The way to wake people up is to show that the present is inextricably linked to
the far past.

Heck, this is what I write about -- and used as a technique to teach my students
how to do and write up research.

Rochelle
--
Dr. R. I. S. Altman

Niels Peter Lemche <np13867@...> wrote:     Dear listmembers,

  while we are at possible subjects -- staying away for a while from
  the Bible as history -- there is at least one more subject that must
  concern every member of this list:

  Why is the ANE so interesting (except from its alleged biblical affinities)? I
my part of the world, interest is fading away rather rapidly, and departments
may soon be in jeopardy, or have already been closed down.



---------------------------------
  Yahoo! Mail
  Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How does one make a membership profile?
Victor

-----Original Message-----
From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Peter van der Veen
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:16 PM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Reminder: Subject Headings, Profiles

Dear friends,

I agree with Paul James Cowie,

Me too I started to work on my Membership profile at yahoo (I shall still
add more) and indeed me too I think that this is a wonderful opportunity to
get to know each other better. This may also help to bring the right people
into contact with each other and stir more in depth discussion in the
different relevant fields of research.

These are great tools and will undoubtedly help to enhance the quality of
this new list.

Best wishes
Peter van der Veen PhD
Arbeitsgruppe für Biblische Archäologie

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Paul James Cowie
   To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:49 AM
   Subject: [ANE-2] Reminder: Subject Headings, Profiles


   I realise that it's very early days, but could we all make a big effort to
ensure that the
   subject headings for posts are maintained carefully....? In other words,
if you're starting a
   new thread from a reply, please change the subject heading accordingly.

   Another matter: Yahoo! allows group members to build up a Member Profile.
This is a
   great aid a). in formulating your online presence, b). in allowing other
contributors to
   understand a little bit about you, where you're coming from.... Can I
personally urge all list
   members to ensure that their member profiles get filled in and are updated
on a regular
   basis?

   -----------------------

   Paul James Cowie
   BA Hons (Sydney) GradDipEd MA (Macquarie) PhD in candidato

   London, England and Sydney, Australia

   Editor, http://www.ancientneareast.net/
   Area Supervisor, Tel Rehov Excavations, Israel

   PhD Candidate, Department of Ancient History and Archaeology, Macquarie
   University, Sydney, Australia










   SPONSORED LINKS Near  Ancient  University of chicago


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

     a..  Visit your group "ANE-2" on the web.

     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links

> How does one make a membership profile?
> Victor

There is an answer to that question, and a host of others, at
http://help.yahoo.com/help/profiles/

Best,

Peter Westh
PhD student
University of Copenhagen
Department of Cross-cultural and Regional Studies
History of Religions Section
Artillerivej 86, room 2.06
DK-2300 Copenhagen
Denmark
pwesth@...
+45 40 21 97 16

Secretary of DAHR
Danish Association for the History of Religions
www.dahr.dk

As an "amateur" myself, I think then main reasons why a layman
approach our area (be it lurking on lists, buying books, ...) are:

     It's "primeval" character. ANE is the "craddle of civilization" - at
least of western- and almost everything has been traced back there ( I
can still remember the impact S.N. Kramer's "History begins at Sumer"
made on me). As a starting point it also makes an interesting object of
theoretical reflection about "complex societies"; for instance. those of
you with a marxist background may remember how the "asiatic mode of
production"  was a hot topic. Or, more recently, the impact of "Black
Athenea"
     ANE arts and crafts are so powerful, that it spans a desire to know
more about its makers (including, why not, those who start with
"piramidology"). Specially, Egyptian art is an always -successful-
recurring attraction point
    The religious aspect (be it biblical studies, be it, f.i., the
egyptian-ocultist links) is also  a "hook" for many into ANE studies. Or
just the romantic "orientalism".

    I'm afraid the problems Dr. Lemche  point are not exclusive of our
area of interest but of almost all the Humanities. They don't fit in the
modern utilitarian view of education, nor they are easy prey for
politicians in search for a headline.

     Regards
           Werner Llácer
            IT Project Manager

Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
> Dear listmembers,
>
> while we are at possible subjects -- staying away for a while from
> the Bible as history -- there is at least one more subject that must
> concern every member of this list:
>
> Why is the ANE so interesting (except from its alleged biblical
> affinities)? I my part of the world, interest is fading away rather
> rapidly, and departments may soon be in jeopardy, or have already
> been closed down.
(snip)
> NPLemche
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Near
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Near&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+ch\
icago&c=3&s=50&.sig=aVz6i_8jEdKbBX8H7JNf2A>
>  Ancient
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Ancient&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of\
+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=i__45E9H9auv49UTibKO4g>
>  University of chicago
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=University+of+chicago&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3\
=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=YnBSDXrWnRu6PQo-N0zxtg>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     *  Visit your group "ANE-2 <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2>"
>       on the web.
>
>     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>        ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>     *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Dear Victor,

Click on the 'Visit your ANE-2 List on the web' (bottom of page) and then once
you are on yahoo 'sign in', then once you're there click on 'Edit Membership'
underneath Yahoo Groups, then add new profile 'Creat new public profile'.

Should work fine. At least it did so for me,

Best wishes
Peter van der Veen PhD
Arbeitsgruppe für Biblische Archäologie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Testing- and to congratulate ANE-2 on its first day. Hope it fares well.
Raz Kletter

Let's not shy away from a rather utilitarian but nevertheless important reason
why the
necessity of the study of the ANE cannot be denied today: the Iraq War---a war
of
choice---has and is causing lots of damage to the heritage of Mesopotamia.  The
countries of the Coalition esp. are dutybound (arguably even legally obligated)
to mitigate
as much as possible the destructive effects of their military intervention.  For
which they
need and will need trained professionals to assist their Iraqi colleagues. 
Furthermore,
knowing the history and culture of a country you're occupying is a necessary
condition to
be able to do anything beneficial at all.  Etc., etc.

Best,

Francis

++++++++++++++
Francis Deblauwe, Lic., Ph.D.

Director & Editor, The Iraq War & Archaeology
An Archaeos, Inc., Documentation and Information Project
Archaeos, Inc., New York, USA

Research Associate / Director, IWA-Projekt
Institut für Orientalistik, Universität Wien, Austria

fdeblauwe@...
+1 (816) 943-6300

The Iraq War & Archaeology  --  http://www.archaeos.org/iwa or
http://iwa.univie.ac.at
Academic Page of F. Deblauwe  --  http://iwa.univie.ac.at/academic.html
Writing Page of F. Deblauwe  --  http://writing.deblauwe.org/writing.html

Ceterum censeo Mesopotamiam antiquam muniendam esse.
++++++++++++++
>
> Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
> > Dear listmembers,
> >
> > while we are at possible subjects -- staying away for a while from
> > the Bible as history -- there is at least one more subject that must
> > concern every member of this list:
> >
> > Why is the ANE so interesting (except from its alleged biblical
> > affinities)? I my part of the world, interest is fading away rather
> > rapidly, and departments may soon be in jeopardy, or have already
> > been closed down.
> (snip)
> > NPLemche
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Near
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Near&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=aVz6
i_8jEdKbBX8H7JNf2A>
> >  Ancient
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Ancient&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=i_
_45E9H9auv49UTibKO4g>
> >  University of chicago
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=University+of+chicago&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3
&s=50&.sig=YnBSDXrWnRu6PQo-N0zxtg>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >     *  Visit your group "ANE-2 <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2>"
> >       on the web.
> >
> >     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >        ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >       <mailto:ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> >     *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Dear Raz,

Welcome among us. You will probably get morfe instructions from Jeffrey, our
list owner.

Although it sounds private, I can say that I am enjoing you new book, Just Past?
So a little add cannot harm.

Full title for list members: Raz Kletter, Just Past? The Making of Israeli
Archaeology, Equinox, London 2006, which makes very interesting reading

NPLemche



Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
raz.kletter
Sendt: 16. februar 2006 14:37
Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [ANE-2] Wellcome

Testing- and to congratulate ANE-2 on its first day. Hope it fares well.
Raz Kletter










Yahoo! Groups Links

Dear Niels Peter;

A wonderful question, which also has been "haunting" through my
mind  for some years already... :)

Firstly ANE-history is not very much promoted in the education of
those Secondary-Schools which are giving admittance to University-
Studies.
After one chapter about Mesopotamia, and a slightly larger-one about
Ancient-Egypt in the beginning of the first year, -pupils being 12
years of age -, it's actually over!

Moreover, the lack of Anthropology as a Subject at Secondary-
Schools, plus the focussing on Mathematics, Physics, Chemics and
Economy for making a future "Carreer" in our Modern Technocratic
Society, will certainly play a role here.

A few years ago there even was a "rumour" here in the Netherlands
that it maybe would be better not to bother Secondary-School-
children too much with history anylonger, and drop the General-
Subject as a part of their Final-Examination....
Fortunately this idea hasn't been brought into practice, so far...

Maybe, under these circumstances, it's to be understood that the few
Academical ANE-Specialists that are left and got a job in the end,
are not very optimistic about the future of this Discipline?
The more because in certain orthodox Theological-Colleges and
Faculties, the Authorities seem to prefer their own Theologists to
lecture ANE of the Bible to their students, in an apologetical-way.

Just some thoughts...

Hetty Caron;

PhD, Classical History.


--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <np13867@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear listmembers,
>
> while we are at possible subjects -- staying away for a while from
> the Bible as history -- there is at least one more subject that
must
> concern every member of this list:
>
> Why is the ANE so interesting (except from its alleged biblical
> affinities)? I my part of the world, interest is fading away
rather
> rapidly, and departments may soon be in jeopardy, or have already
> been closed down.
>
> The 1968-dogma was about scholarship that it should be of
ineterest
> for the general community. I was part of that 'revolution' and it
> definitely changed a lot to the better -- and to the worse. The OT
> has been reduced in importance in several theological departments,
> because other parts of theology find it irrelevant. Hebrew is
often
> only taught to specialists in OT -- the crazy few.
>
> So why are we interested in the ANE? The people at OI who closed
down
> ANE, probably prefer to retract from the world, closing their eyes
> for the probably black future of Oriental studies. Survival
> strategies or simply the mothos of an oistrich: Covering you head
and
> hope for the best?
>
> I would like to see some, say ten good arguments for a continuous
> interest in the ANE.
>
> I can of course point at one, the already mentioned alleged
relevance
> for biblical studies, although a growing fraction of biblical
> scholars are not interested at all because of their literary
(read:
> reader-response) orientations.
>
> NPLemche
>

A few additional suggestions for those filling in membership profiles for the
ANE 2 list,
now that instructions for creating and maintaining a profile have been supplied:

*The section marked "Hobbies" (?!) makes an ideal place to include details of
research and
discussion interests, affiliations (if any), experience, etc.

*The fields labelled "Cool links" (?!) offer members the chance to share some
favourite web
links with the rest of the list.... Do go ahead and fill in your preferred
URLs.... Who knows?
Maybe we'll discover some new gems.....?

Here is the link to my own profile, giving you an idea of what is possible:

http://profiles.yahoo.com/pjamescowie

Hope this helps,

-----------------------

Paul James Cowie
BA Hons (Sydney) GradDipEd MA (Macquarie) PhD in candidato

London, England and Sydney, Australia

Editor, http://www.ancientneareast.net/
Area Supervisor, Tel Rehov Excavations, Israel

PhD Candidate, Department of Ancient History and Archaeology, Macquarie
University, Sydney, Australia

As a "retired" educator, a teacher of Social Studies, including Geography,
American History, and World History (grades 6-12, ages 12-18 years) I can relate
to some of the problems which I have seen arise in regards to the subject of
Ancient Near Eastern studies on the former ANE List. One contentious issue boils
down to two contradicting world views, the Faithful vs. the Secular Humanists.
Each claims its methodologies and presuppositions are the "correct" way to
determine what "the truth is."  The stakes are high, which will win the "hearts
and minds" of the Western World as to what "Truth is" and what are the "correct"
procedures to be employed in discovering and establishing Truth ?

This "worldview struggle" exists in the public schools (Elementary and
Secondary). To avoid confrontations with believing parents, textbook committes
screen out texts which might offend the believing public, teachers "quickly
learn" to avoid bringing up the hot-button issues to circumvent confrontations
with believing parents and a believing community and possible ostracization.
Darwin's Evolutionary explanation of Life, Anthropology's explanations of
religions as evolving from man's projections of his fears and hates onto
imaginary gods are "left to" the Colleges to deal with. Even now there is a
movement in the USA among some Conservatives to "get rid of" the "Liberal"
educators in higher education (Academia) who "undermine" religious faith with
their Anthropological viewpoints and biological Evolutionary theories. Just cut
funding, ending the departments which 'offend' the believing public, pass laws
demanding biblical explantions for the origins of the world and mankind (Adam,
Eve and Eden) to be given "equal time" in the classroom (Social Studies
curricula and Biology & Science).

In other words some of  "wrangles" which manifested themselves on the former ANE
list, are simply a reflection of the "struggle" going on in Western Society at
large, as it tries to determine "what is the truth" ?

I can honestly say that after some 30+ years in the classroom, Junior High as
well as High School, the purpose of Education is _not_ to deliver "the truth" to
the young _nor_ to teach them how "to discover the truth", its to _indoctrinate_
the young, to make them compliant, loyal, law-abiding, non-rebellious patriotic
citizens, willing to lay down their lives for "God and Country." When the "few"
get to the Colleges, they encounter the Liberal instructors, with a worldview
_contrary_ to that built up in the students by parents, society (Church,
Elementary & Secondary Schools). The students return home full of "challenges"
and "rebellion" to beliefs instilled in them.

Who serves society better ? A question I have often asked myself, the "con" of
religion with its imaginary gods or "skeptical" Anthropologists and Darwinists
in search of "Truth" ? The "skeptical" _challenge_ the status quo and seek its
overthrow, the "believers" have been taught to be complacent, law-abiding and
patriotic. It shouldn't be too hard for some on this list to determine "who best
serves Society's needs" it's not the skeptics, its the believers.

I will be 63 on March 5th, all my life, like many on this list, I have "searched
for the truth." In the end I came to realize, life is nothing but one BIG CON.
Societies seek their self-perpetuation and they do this via CONNING, lies,
half-truths, cover-ups, threats, intimidation, ostracization. We are conned by
parents, educators, religion, business, loved ones. Yet, amazingly with all the
b_ll sh_t we are daily "fed" a few really are searching for the truth, and when
they "find" the truth they discover the world really isn't interested, it
prefers believing in the cons its has been raised up in (or because they have no
training in how to go about determining what truth is they deny it when
presented to them).

I really can not envision "the problems" which appeared on the former ANE List
as "going away" on ANE-2. They are symptomatic of the Society which has nurtured
us, for better or worse. The BANNING of any discussion of the Bible and its
historicity to avoid confrontations is NOT in my opinion a way to find the
"Truth." Is it is a COP-OUT, don't bring up a subject that upsets people.

Even if Secular Humanism (Anthropology & Darwinism) could "win" the hearts and
minds of Western Civilization and religion came to an end, would man change ? I
doubt it. I understand Darwin was right Nature's scheme is "the struggle of the
species" only when the last human is gone form the face of the earth will his
strife (greed, ruthlessness, conning) end with his fellow man (including
Academia and its petty quarrels).

If interested, my reasons for understanding religion being a "con" in service to
society and Anthropology and Darwinism being "truth" cf. the below articles:

http://www.bibleorigins.net/WebsiteAuthorBackground.html

http://www.bibleorigins.net/Methodologies.html

http://www.bibleorigins.net/OldTestament.html

http://www.bibleorigins.net/NewTestament.html

Finally, in regards to the ANE and ANE-2, I hae learned "a lot" from all kinds
of people, from BOTH PhD professional scholars as well as laymen and I have had
to give up some "kooky" ideas over the years. I thank the Moderators for
allowing me to make an "ass of myself" at times and the "corrections" given in
good spirit by all.

Regards, Walter
Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed.
mattfeld12@...
www.bibleorigins.net




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,

No disrespect to anyone intended here, but instead of philosophising about
what we intend to do when we start actually 'doing ANE2', would it not be far
better just to get on with it?

I asked a real question about Mesopotamian antecedents to a biblical
literary figure and got a real answer from Victor, which was very useful, but 
many
of the ANE2 submissions are pre-occupied with ANE1 and its old problems
(whatever they were). Is it not time to start over?

:-)

Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.

Bruce.
____________
Bruce Gardner
Aberdeen Scotland UK



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think that another reason why the ANE intrigues people so it that it
was a literate period & its many, many tablets let us get in the minds
of the people who lived then. It is wonderful to read aloud the letter
from a student at Mari complaining how hard his teacher is & that he
needs new clothes, and see the response of a class of undergraduates.
Instant recognition!  At its best, it's time travel.

Trudy Kawami

________________________________



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Patrick,

Given the tendency in the first mill BCE to equate single deities with
nation-states (Assyria is the clearest example) it's not monotheism but
nationalism behind the "elevation" of specific deities.

Trudy Kawami



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick
Ryan
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:15 AM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] The God Haldi



Thank you for the detailed answer. In my drowsy state, I misstated Hurrian
rather than Urartian.

I am not proposing Haldi as a monotheistic god only wondering if someone else
has.

I thought someone researching early monotheistic tendencies might have come
across some indications.

Perhaps my question was rather naïve.


Patrick
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Niels Peter Lemche<mailto:np13867@...>
   To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:52 AM
   Subject: [ANE-2] The God Haldi


   Found no God of this name in RLA, but references to these

   Chadatashshi, Heth. Göttern ame ... 'der des Rufens' (Laroche), and
   Chaldi'asira, Gottheit (urartäischer Herkunft?) (Edzard).

   In COS III, p. 219, an Aramaic Stela Fragment (the Bukan
   inscription), a God Chaldi is mentioned together with Hadad: e.g. l.
   11: 'May Hadad and Chaldi overturn his throne'. A note describes
   Chaldi as an Urartean god of war, and Paul E. Zimanski describes him
   as the principal god of Urartu--however without Hurrian connotations:
   Se Zimamsky, 'The Kingdom of Urartu in Eastern Anatolia', CANE II
   (1995, pp. 1135-1146, pp. 1144-5.

   You will need to provide more solid evidence of 1: occurrences of
   this god that predates the first millennium BCE (Urartu belongs to
   that milennium and not the 2nd).
   2. You need to watch more closely what we know about this god from
   Urartean inscriptions.
   3. You have to find evidence of emerging monotheism among the
   Urarteans of the 1st millennium.

   As to 3, it is not absolutely impossible as we are down into a period
   with emerging monotheism all over the ANE: See more on this Herbert
   Niehr, Der Höchste Gott. Alttestamentlicher JHWH-Glaube im Kontext
   syrisch-kanaanäischer Religion des 1. Jahrtausends v.Chr, BZAW:
   Berlin, de Gruyter 1990.

   DDD has no entry dealing with this God

   NPLemche





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bruce,

I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
shoulders.

Trudy Kawami



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
drbrucekgardner@...
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:57 AM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



Hi ANE2 Listers,

What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in
Genesis
5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels
on
this that I could follow up?

Thanks,

Bruce Gardner
Aberdeen Scotland UK.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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________________________________



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have tried to publish a foto of this relief on the list but do not know if
Yahoo allows it.

If anybody is interested in a foto of this relief, and it does not appear here,
I suggest that you write to me directly.

NPLemche

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Trudy
Kawami
Sendt: 16. februar 2006 17:56
Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Emne: RE: [ANE-2] A new beginning

Bruce,

I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
shoulders.

Trudy Kawami



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
drbrucekgardner@...
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:57 AM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



Hi ANE2 Listers,

What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in
Genesis
5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels
on
this that I could follow up?

Thanks,

Bruce Gardner
Aberdeen Scotland UK.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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________________________________



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Yahoo! Groups Links

There's a Sumerian composition called the "Bride of Martu." Also, Ur III
kings made it policy to send some of their daughters off to marry
foreigners. I have the impression that the Ur III folks believed that a
princess could civilize even the Marhashi people.

Marc Cooper
Missouri State - History

-----Original Message-----
From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Gerald A. Klingbeil
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:36 AM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE

Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from
the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in
something that I have been thinking about recently. Where in
the ANE (texts, images, etc.) can you see traces of cross-
cultural marriages? Obviously, this firstly requires a definition
of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We all know
of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
cement the relationship between two reigning families from
different city states/tribes, etc. I remember a reference about
Shamshi-Adad I, king of Ekallatum and contemporary of
Hammurabi who mentions a strategic marriage of his family
with the kings of Qatna. I think there is also evidence that
Beltum, the daughter of Ishi-Adad of Qatna was married to
Yasmah-Adad, king of Mari.

It seems to me that a definition of culture in the context of the
ANE would focus upon language, customs and material culture,
and possibly also religion. Differences in these key areas
should be considered cross-cultural. Cross-cultural marriage
always are wonderfully difficult as well as surprising (I am
talking from experience :-))... so let me hear what you think.
Can you provide some relevant bibliography? Texts? Ideas?
Feedback? The Egyptologists on this list: do you see
documentation for this phenomenon in Egyptian texts? How
would Egyptians have described a cross-cultural marriage?

I am looking forward to hear from feedback.

Gerald

Gerald A. Klingbeil, D.Litt.
Adventist International Institute of Advanced Studies,
P.O. Box 038, Silang, Cavite 4118
PHILIPPINES

Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
Editor Asia Adventist Seminary Studies
e-mail: gklingbeil@...
Phone: +63-46-414-4348 (office) 63-46-414-4409 (home)






Yahoo! Groups Links

Wtih your kind indulgence, just a minor point - the composition you refer
to is better known, I think, as
"the Marriage of Martu". That is how it is called, at least, in Samuel
Kramer's edition in the Pinhas Artzi Festschrift published by Bar Ilan
University and in the comments to it published by Jacob Klein in the
Rafael Kutscher Memorial Volume (Tel Aviv Occasional Publications 1)
Victor



On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Cooper, Marc wrote:

> There's a Sumerian composition called the "Bride of Martu." Also, Ur III
> kings made it policy to send some of their daughters off to marry
> foreigners. I have the impression that the Ur III folks believed that a
> princess could civilize even the Marhashi people.
>
> Marc Cooper
> Missouri State - History
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Gerald A. Klingbeil
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:36 AM
> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE
>
> Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from
> the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in
> something that I have been thinking about recently. Where in
> the ANE (texts, images, etc.) can you see traces of cross-
> cultural marriages? Obviously, this firstly requires a definition
> of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We all know
> of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
> cement the relationship between two reigning families from
> different city states/tribes, etc. I remember a reference about
> Shamshi-Adad I, king of Ekallatum and contemporary of
> Hammurabi who mentions a strategic marriage of his family
> with the kings of Qatna. I think there is also evidence that
> Beltum, the daughter of Ishi-Adad of Qatna was married to
> Yasmah-Adad, king of Mari.
>
> It seems to me that a definition of culture in the context of the
> ANE would focus upon language, customs and material culture,
> and possibly also religion. Differences in these key areas
> should be considered cross-cultural. Cross-cultural marriage
> always are wonderfully difficult as well as surprising (I am
> talking from experience :-))... so let me hear what you think.
> Can you provide some relevant bibliography? Texts? Ideas?
> Feedback? The Egyptologists on this list: do you see
> documentation for this phenomenon in Egyptian texts? How
> would Egyptians have described a cross-cultural marriage?
>
> I am looking forward to hear from feedback.
>
> Gerald
>
> Gerald A. Klingbeil, D.Litt.
> Adventist International Institute of Advanced Studies,
> P.O. Box 038, Silang, Cavite 4118
> PHILIPPINES
>
> Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
> Editor Asia Adventist Seminary Studies
> e-mail: gklingbeil@...
> Phone: +63-46-414-4348 (office) 63-46-414-4409 (home)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

cross-posted

-----Original Message-----
From: Stern, Richard H.
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 1:29 PM
To: 'Rochelle Altman'; ane@...
Cc: Stern, Richard H.
Subject: RE: [ANE] So long, and a little note on copyright and the internet.


Dear Rochelle and other colleagues:

I do not want to revive the contentiousness of ANE at the last minute.  But... 
What is the authority to support the statement, "Ever since the late 1980's, by
posting to a list, you automatically assign copyright to the listhost"?

It seems to me that that is contrary to the Copyright Act, which appears to
provide that copyright attaches to ("vests initially in") the author upon
fixation of the "work" -- say, when typing it out, saving it to disk, or the
like.  Then, copyright stays with the author unless and until it is transferred
by a conveyance or other legally recognized mechanism.  Involuntary transfer is
expressly excluded by the Act.  A conveyance MUST be in writing signed by the
author.

References:  17 US Code sec 201, sec. 204 -- see
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html

I therefore suggest that "Ever since the late 1980's, by posting to a list, you
automatically assign copyright to the listhost"  is some mythology spread about
by proprietors of list servers.

I refuse to believe (in fact, expressly disclaim) that by posting this
remonstration I am assigning any copyright to OI in this work and indeed that I
am doing any more than giving OI a free (implied) license to publish it on ANE
and copy it into their Internet archive of ANE; and I believe that the statute
(cited above) supports my view.  Perhaps we should ask OI's counsel to state
OI's view of its rights in ANE postings --    -:)   --

THIS IS NOT A LEGAL OPINION ON WHICH VIEWERS ARE ENTITLED TO RELY    ...
However, I would not mind participating in a professional capacity in a test
case to vindicate ANE-2's ability to download the ANE archive and make it
available for users who would otherwise lose access to it.  (Absent assignments
from the vast and untraceable multitude of past ANE posters, however, we would
be obliged to take the position that post posters gave an implied license for
such use -- probably squeaking by, or that our use was a fair use for reasons
previously stated.  If this were wrong, the highly hypothetical copyright
infringement would be of the posters' copyrights, not OI's.)  I doubt that OI
would be interested in that kind of adventure, however.  For a recent lower
court decision on a generally comparable alleged appropriation of Internet
postings, upholding the challenged use as fair, see
http://pub.bna.com/ptcj/040413Jan19.pdf

=====================================
Best regards.

Richard H. Stern
rstern@...    rstern@...
Washington, DC
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
=====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: ane-admin@... [mailto:ane-admin@...]On
Behalf Of Rochelle Altman
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:54 PM
To: ane@...
Subject: [ANE] So long, and a little note on copyright and the internet.


Thanks for the 12 years I've been a lurker both on and off the list. Usually
pleasant and informative, sometimes disgusting.

For everybody spreading out to new lists out there -- seems people are a bit
confused on this point.

Ever since the late 1980's, by posting to a list, you automatically assign
copyright to the listhost.

The OI has a copyright notice right there on its site; but, they did not have to
post the notice..

So, to answer the question that was asked about the OI archives; the archives
belong to the OI. If the archives are deleted right now, they will be the
equivalent of out of print. If so, the archives for July 1993 will be in public
domain and publishable free of restraint as of Auguat 1, 2069.

Just bear in mind that anything you post to a list is theirs, not yours.

All the best, and enjoy your tour of the galaxy,

rochelle


.









   _____

Yahoo! Mail
Use 
<http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=38867/*http://photomail.mail.ya\
hoo.com> Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My understanding is that Yahoogroups does not allow for attachments.

Trudy



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Niels
Peter Lemche
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:27 PM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ANE-2] Haldi



I have tried to publish a foto of this relief on the list but do not know if
Yahoo allows it.

If anybody is interested in a foto of this relief, and it does not appear here,
I suggest that you write to me directly.

NPLemche

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Trudy
Kawami
Sendt: 16. februar 2006 17:56
Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Emne: RE: [ANE-2] A new beginning

Bruce,

I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
shoulders.

Trudy Kawami



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
drbrucekgardner@...
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:57 AM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



Hi ANE2 Listers,

What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in
Genesis
5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels
on
this that I could follow up?

Thanks,

Bruce Gardner
Aberdeen Scotland UK.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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On Feb 16, 2006, at 2:03 AM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
>
> The 1968-dogma was about scholarship that it should be of ineterest
> for the general community. I was part of that 'revolution' and it
> definitely changed a lot to the better -- and to the worse. The OT
> has been reduced in importance in several theological departments,
> because other parts of theology find it irrelevant. Hebrew is often
> only taught to specialists in OT -- the crazy few.

	 I'm sure I don't write only for myself when I note that my interest
in the ANE originated in a religious matrix -- for me the Mormon
American version of the 'British Israel' fad.  (I was a 5th
generation Mormon.)  Not only were Hebrew and Palestinian archaeology
important areas of study; but Egyptology, too, was vital because of
the Joseph Smith Papyri.  I prepared myself by studying Hebrew, Old
Babylonian, Ugaritic, Middle Egyptian, and Coptic at Brigham Young;
then specializing in philology in Egyptology with a minor emphasis on
Hebrew at the University of Chicago.
	 Some (many?) religious scholars arrive at a terrible crossroads when
they learn enough about the ANE from extra-OT sources to experience
cognitive dissonance; and they must make a choice to adhere to dogma
and declare evidence to be incorrectly understood, or to adhere to
evidence and re-adjust their dogma.  I'm in the latter camp; for I
cannot, in the words of Daniel Patte, simply declare 'if it is true
(according to my faith), it is historical'.  As outmoded as it may
be, I adhere to empiricism.
	 Accordingly, study of the OT and NT specifically, and the ANE in
general, no longer are central to the development of my philosophical
outlook.  In other words, they have 'been reduced in importance'.
Sorry for the long autobiography, but perhaps it contributes to an
understanding of the increasing irrelevance of OT studies and of the
ANE.

>
> So why are we interested in the ANE? The people at OI who closed down
> ANE, probably prefer to retract from the world, closing their eyes
> for the probably black future of Oriental studies. Survival
> strategies or simply the mothos of an oistrich: Covering you head and
> hope for the best?

	 While my observation is dated by my 30-years-ago experiences at the
OI, I don't think the OI is in denial about the 'probably black
future of Oriental studies'.  Even back then, the OI was well aware
that non-theologically-related ANE studies proceeded only on
shoestring budgets.  In many ways the Golden Age of the OI ended when
Rockefeller's money spigot was turned off.  The genius of Breasted
was establishing the OI and epigraphic survey; and they have been
kept alive for so many years by funds difficult to obtain.  For what
it's worth, my sense is that the OI no longer wanted to monitor a
list; and sponsoring an un-monitored list was well outside the scope
of their interests.
>
> I would like to see some, say ten good arguments for a continuous
> interest in the ANE.

	 'Ten good arguments' is a large order!  I have only one:  the ANE
more than any other region provides us with written sources to
accompany artifacts farther back into man's past.  Accordingly we get
a more-or-less continuous desarollo of human thought and
development.  The building blocks the ANE provided for the
development of the West certainly are important.  (As an aside, the
spread of Christianity throughout Europe for the most part stripped
away indigenous histories, leaving in their place only the dogmatic
history in the canon.)

-- Ed
Edward H. Ashment
eashment@...

In a message dated 16/02/2006 16:57:36 GMT Standard Time,
tkawami@... writes:

Bruce,

I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one  in
the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia  where
the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of  his
patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the  king's
shoulders.

Trudy Kawami


Dear Trudy,

Thanks very much - I will certainly follow this one up.

:-)

Bruce Gardner
Aberdeen Scotland UK


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It depends on the preferences that the moderators set.  Attachments, in
general, should be rejected.  But Yahoo Groups makes it possible to
upload files, pictures, etc to the group webpage which makes individual
attachments to group members unnecessary.

Best

Jim


Trudy Kawami wrote:
> My understanding is that Yahoogroups does not allow for attachments.
>
> Trudy
>
--
Jim West

http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com  -- Petros Baptist Weblog
http://web.infoave.net/~jwest  -- Biblical Studies Resources

Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

> Why is the ANE so interesting (except from its alleged biblical
> affinities)?

A broad-ranging question which so far posters have interpreted as
socio-historical. As someone who has studied Ancient Egypt and is a
Saharan archaeologist, I wish to approach the question from a
theoretically historical approach.

The typological categories that for decades framed and constrained  Old
World archaeology have their roots on the Enlightenment. The universal
histories which were produced, and 19th century social evolutionism,
combined with imperial tradition and diffusion to produce scenarios of
"progressive development". "Centres of origin" were identified, with
innovations diffusing to the peripheries, producing a time-space systematic.

The Near Eastern early complex societies and the advent of agriculture
were taken as hallmarks of "progress", against which societies from
other continents - or, in the case of Egypt, elsewhere on the same
continent - could be compared and marked.

These neo-evolutionary models are part and parcel of our practical and
theoretical heritage; models which have been imposed upon other areas
outside of the Near East with varying degrees of success and alteration,
or simply discarded when found to be inappropriate.

See:
Stahl, A. 1999. Perceiving Variability in Time and Space: The
Evolutionary Mapping of African Societies. In McIntosh, S. K. (ed.)
Beyond Chiefdoms: Pathways to Complexity in Africa. Cambridge: Cambridge
University Press, 39-55.


--
Best, Mikey Brass
MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
"The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)

There should be a "files" section where things can be put.

I think there's an option for attachments to be allowed but this can let
viruses, etc get through.

All the best,

John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...>
To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 6:46 PM
Subject: [ANE-2] Pics of Haldi


My understanding is that Yahoogroups does not allow for attachments.

Trudy



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Niels Peter Lemche
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:27 PM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ANE-2] Haldi



I have tried to publish a foto of this relief on the list but do not know if
Yahoo allows it.

If anybody is interested in a foto of this relief, and it does not appear
here, I suggest that you write to me directly.

NPLemche

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Trudy
Kawami
Sendt: 16. februar 2006 17:56
Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Emne: RE: [ANE-2] A new beginning

Bruce,

I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
shoulders.

Trudy Kawami



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
drbrucekgardner@...
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:57 AM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



Hi ANE2 Listers,

What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in
Genesis
5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels
on
this that I could follow up?

Thanks,

Bruce Gardner
Aberdeen Scotland UK.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Dear friends,

go a lot of good answers, although not the requested.

An additional or supplementary one: The Chinese sometgimes mock
Western culture for its young age, but when we realize that our
ethics were basically shared by the Sumerians (and yes, Kramers The
History beginns was also one of the books that was decisive for my c
hoice of subject) we can say that the backbone of Western
civilization goes back 5.000 years at least.

There must be reasons why the great divide is not between, say
Muslims and Christians (don't intend to discuss the merits our either
religion--irrelavnt to the list), but exactly at the spot where
Alexander's soldiers turned round and went back, at the borders of
India.

Being a theologian by education, I simply wonder if this has
something to do with shared ideas about creation: All men are born
equal, no punisment for sins commmitted in an earlier life
manifestation. Think of the Babylonian decrees of remittance from the
OB period.

This ís definitely not to discuss theology, but only the theology of
the ANE. There is a growing number of theologians who are willing to
talk about, notr Babylonian religion, but Babylonian theology.
'
There is a wonderful German title illustrating this shift (which I
personally welcome, because here is a reason why we should not forget
our ancient heritage): Manfred Oeming, Konrad Scmid and Andreas
Schüle (the last now-a-days somewhere in the States), Theologie in
Israel und in den Nachbarkulturen, in one of the volujmes going back
to the von Rad centennial symposium in 2001 (published 2004).

NPLemche