Thank you all very much for the useful information.

Gilberta Spreafico
University Sapienza of Rome

--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Zwickel, Prof. Dr. Wolfgang" <zwickel@...> wrote:
>
> A complete bibliography up to 2012 can be found in
> D. Elkowicz, Tempel und Kultpl�tze der Philister und der V�lker des
Ostjordanlandes. Eine Untersuchung zur Bau- und zur Kultgeschichte w�hrend der
Eisenzeit I-II, AOAT 378,  Ugarit-Verlag: M�nster 2012
>
> Wolfgang Zwickel
> Von: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Sam
WOLFF
> Gesendet: Montag, 4. M�rz 2013 14:18
> An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [ANE-2] Iron Age cult places in Southern Levant
>
>
>
> I neglected to mention in my previous post that references to H. Atarus/Ataruz
can also be found in the IAA library.
>
> It will certainly be helpful for you to consult Jens Kamlah (ed.), Temple
Building and Temple Cult: Architecture and Cultic Paraphenalia of Temples in the
Levant (2.-1. Mill. B.C.E.) (ADPV 41), 2012.
>
> Sam Wolff
> Jerusalem
>
>
********************************************************************************\
****
> This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
> PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer
viruses.
>
********************************************************************************\
****
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Take a look at the introductory chapter by Headland, whose url I put in my last
message. It's not the dialog itself, but an introduction to the vagaries of the
terms since they were misappropriated by Harris. He finds that no two
anthropologists seem to use them in the same way -- and the only one he mentions
who seems to use them as they had been used for the previous 80 years is
Levi-Strauss (who would have learned them from Roman Jakobson at the time he was
generalizing the structural approach from language to culture). Headland says he
got them backwards ...

Headland also mentioned that there was quite a drop-off in their appearance
beginning around 1980.

There's a review article by M. Harris in Annual Review of Anthropology -- I
don't know whether it's the one Niels Peter cited from JSTOR -- I'll be printing
it out today so I can read it; in the first couple of pages, which I glanced
through on screen, he quotes a definition from Goodenough which exactly matches
the traditional usage, so where did Harris go wrong?
--
Peter T. Daniels                 grammatim@...
Jersey City


>________________________________
> From: Simeon Chavel <sbchavel@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 9:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>
>Peter,
>
>There is no question that anthropologists and other use emic and etic in the
way NP has indicated, etymology and historical semantics notwithstanding. Other
linguistic concepts have been accepted into and adapted by literary studies. The
phenomenon is not in and of itself strange or outrageous. Perhaps you could
clarify what is at stake here that warrants -- forgive me for saying it -- such
resistance.
>
>Sincerely,
>Simi
>--------------------------------------------------
>Simeon Chavel
>Assistant Professor of Hebrew Bible
>The University of Chicago Divinity School
>http://divinity.uchicago.edu/faculty/chavel.shtml
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>On Mar 4, 2013, at 2:50 PM, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...> wrote:
>
>> I find this attitude very bizarre in someone who is supposed to be an
objective moderator of a discussion list.
>>
>> Thank you for the Lett quotation; meanwhile I discovered the Headland et al.
(the al. happen to include Pike and Harris) reference and expect to be able to
read it on Thursday.
>>
>> Lett, unfortunately, assumes that his readers already know what both Pike and
Harris meant by the terms.
>>
>> In linguistics, the emic items are the ones that matter, the ones that make a
difference; there can be any number of different realizations of emic items, and
those realizations are the etic items.
>>
>> Thus in English there is only one phoneme /k/, and it has phonetic variants
[k^] before a front vowel, [q] before a back vowel, etc., and if you say
"qitchen" (using the Arabic-type [q]), everyone will know you said "kitchen"
(with a funny accent). Thus in English the k/q difference is phonetic but not
phonemic.
>>
>> But in Arabic, as everyone here knows, a kalb is a dog and a qalb is a heart,
so the k/q distinction _does_ make a difference, so it is phonemic and not
merely phonetic in Arabic.
>>
>> In Greek 1, and in Hebrew 5, letters have a special shape at the end of a
word. The difference between Mem and Mem Sofit is etic, because the two forms
have exactly the same function; but one of them happens only to occur at the end
of a word. It is an automatically conditioned variant.
>>
>> What is entirely unclear is how this contrast of "makes a difference/doesn't
make a difference" got transmogified (by M. Harris?) into a contrast of "what
subject knows/what observer knows." In particular, speakers of languages
generally do _not_ know that they are consistently making phonetic,
non-phonemic, distinctions in their speech. The English-speaker automatically
doesn't aspirate a stop after /s/ and has no idea that s/he aspirates stops in
some contexts, and doesn't aspirate stops in other contexts.
>>
>> The Evans-Pritchard examples is perfectly clear, however. The sainted
Evans-Pritchard made a bonehead mistake. It has nothing to do with the fact that
30 years later, someone (M. Harris?) chose to apply a pair of labels to such a
situation (that one in particular?).
>> --
>> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
>>
>> >________________________________
>> > From: Niels Peter Lemche npl@...>
>> >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
>> >Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 2:11 PM
>> >Subject: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >
>> >
>> >�
>> >Found this:
http://faculty.ircc.cc.fl.us/faculty/jlett/Article%20on%20Emics%20and%20Etics.ht\
m
>> >
>> >I do not know anything of the status of professor James Lett. But from the
article on this distinction I quote:
>> >
>> >" Besides Pike, the scholar most closely associated with the concepts of
"emics" and "etics" is the cultural anthropologist Marvin Harris, who has made
the distinction between the emic and etic perspectives an integral part of his
paradigm of cultural materialism. Pike and Harris continue to disagree about the
precise definition and application of emics and etics (Headland et al. 1990).
The most significant area of their disagreement concerns the goal of the etic
approach. For Pike, etics are a way of getting at emics; for Harris, etics are
an end in themselves. From Pike's point of view, the etic approach is useful for
penetrating, discovering, and elucidating emic systems, but etic claims to
knowledge have no necessary priority over competing emic claims. From Harris's
perspective, the etic approach is useful in making objective determinations of
fact, and etic claims to knowledge are necessarily superior to competing emic
claims. Pike believes
>> that objective knowledge is an illusion, and that all claims to knowledge are
ultimately subjective; Harris believes that objective knowledge is at least
potentially obtainable, and that the pursuit of such knowledge is essential for
a discipline that aspires to be a science."
>> >
>> >So some sources says Pike, other Harris. What was in this connection
important before Daniels started to confuse matters was the use of the
distinction which I found in material included in my Early Israel (Vetus
Testamentum Supplementum, 37, Brill 1985).
>> >
>> >And if Daniels would try to read what other people wrote, we would realize
that he distorted my Evans-Pritchard example. Evans-Pritchard studied the Nuers
in the 1930's. His book came out in 1940. His students visiting the place in the
1950s couldn't find them. The source for this is A. Southall, "Nuer and Dinka
are people: Ecology, ethnicity and logical possibility, Man N.S. 11 (1976),
463-491.
>> >
>> >I know that Daniels studies linguistics, but I didn't know that he also
mastered social anthropology. Evidently he got lost when he was confronted by a
use of the distinction that has for now been around for 40 years or more. In the
way he became the first ever to question the dichotomy between emic and etic as
normally used in anthrpology.
>> >
>> >Otherwise, it would be nice if he would step down and tell us what the
distinction really means in light of a generations abuse (in his eyes) of the
term.
>> >
>> >Niels Peter Lemche
>> >Copenhagen
>> >
>> >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> >Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne af Peter
T. Daniels
>> >Sendt: den 4 mars 2013 19:47
>> >Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>> >Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >
>> >Thank you. Niels Peter is quite off base in suggesting that Pike had
anything to do with the misuse of his own terminology.
>> >
>> >And it would seem the reference to Evans-Pritchard was at least _two_
generations too early.
>> >--
>> >Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
>> >
>> >>________________________________
>> >> From: Emanuel Pfoh manupfoh@...>
>> >>To: "ANE-2@...@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 9:07 AM
>> >>Subject: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>�
>> >>Anthropologists on the emic/etic distinction: I think Marvin Harris was one
of the first, if not the first one, in presenting a formal use of this
distinction in his *The Nature of Cultural Things* (New York 1964) and in his
*The Rise of Anthropological Theory* (London 1968).
>> >>
>> >>Emanuel Pfoh
>> >>National University of La Plata
>> >>Argentina
>> >>
>> >>________________________________
>> >>From: Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...>
>> >>To: "ANE-2@...@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 10:43 AM
>> >>Subject: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>�
>> >>Can you provide the reference where someone so badly misinterprets the
terms? An anecdote about Evans-Pritchard's failure to learn the language of the
people he was "studying" doesn't seem to provide the origin. At least a
subsequent generation learned(!) of the distinction between endonyms and
exonyms.
>> >>
>> >>(I don't give a d... for what the anthropologists think.)
>> >>--
>> >>Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
>> >>Jersey City
>> >>
>> >>>________________________________
>> >>> From: Niels Peter Lemche npl@...>
>> >>>To: "ANE-2@...@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>>Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 10:45 AM
>> >>>Subject: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>�
>> >>>Dear Peter,
>> >>>
>> >>>I do not think that the anthropologists will give a d... for what you
think. That is the way it is being used. In social anthropology, as well as in
sociology. It is quite like our old discussion about Canaanite script which a
historian did not make much sense but nevertheless was the term adopted by
philologists.
>> >>>
>> >>>There will probably be list among anthropologists where you can go and
make your complaints. They will probably say that you are right about the
origins of the term, but also say that this is the derived way we use it.
>> >>>
>> >>>The last sentence was a spin off from the discussion, and should be read
in context (which I am sure you understand).
>> >>>
>> >>>Niels Peter Lemche
>> >>>Copenhagen
>> >>>
>> >>>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> >>>Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne af
Peter T. Daniels
>> >>>Sendt: den 3 mars 2013 16:32
>> >>>Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>> >>>Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>
>> >>>As I said, "The usual use in social anthropology" would not be a helpful
answer.
>> >>>
>> >>>That business about "what informer tells you" vs. "what you think
yourself" has nothing whatsoever to do with the original lingusitic sense (and I
do not see how it can be derived from it), nor with the detachment from the root
"phon-" that was used by the linguistic theoretician Kenneth Pike at least since
the early 1950s. (Many -eme words were devised by Baudouin de Courtenay more
than half a century before that.)
>> >>>
>> >>>If you meant "we don't know what the folks we call Philistines called
themselves," that's what you should have said.
>> >>>
>> >>>--
>> >>>Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
>> >>>Jersey City
>> >>>
>> >>>>________________________________
>> >>>> From: Niels Peter Lemche npl@...>
>> >>>>To: "ANE-2@...@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>>>Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 9:27 AM
>> >>>>Subject: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>�
>> >>>>And I would only add: We have an idea about what other people called the
Philistines, but do we know what they called themselves? They are quite mute. It
is, however, interesting that the Assyrians when they became better acquainted
with the area, called "philistine" in the OT, they did not any longer use it.
They never talk about Philistine kings, but rather kings from various cities
mentioned by name, which would in the etic source in the OT be reckoned
"Philistine."
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Niels Peter Lemche
>> >>>>Copenhagen
>> >>>>
>> >>>>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> >>>>Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne af
Niels Peter Lemche
>> >>>>Sendt: den 3 mars 2013 15:25
>> >>>>Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>> >>>>Emne: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I know of the origins of emic and etic, but these terms are used without
the addition og "phon-" in social anthropology to distinguish between what the
informer tells you and what you think yourself. It means that what one part
seems as the fact is not necessarily shared by the other part. The use of the
two concepts are in anthropology not as old as in linguistics, but quite common
and accepted.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>To illustrate the issue, in his well-known book "The Nuer" from the
thirties, Evans-Pritchard wrote about the "Nuer". When his students returned
after the war, they couldn't find them. It showed up that "Nuer" was the term
used by the Dinka about the people living on the other side of the river. The
people themselves did not know that they were the "Nuer".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I used the concept for the first time in Early Israel from 1985.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Niels Peter Lemche
>> >>>>Copenhagen
>> >>>>
>> >>>>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> >>>>Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne af
Peter T. Daniels
>> >>>>Sendt: den 3 mars 2013 15:16
>> >>>>Til: ANE-2 list
>> >>>>Emne: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Toward the end of one of his long postings on "Palestine," Niels Peter
recently used the terms "emic" and "etic."
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I wonder what they mean to him?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>("The usual use by scholars of X" would not be a helpful answer. The
terms arose in linguistics almost 150 years ago and have been reinterpreted many
times.)
>> >>>>--
>> >>>>Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
>> >>>>Jersey City
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

it is the article from Annual Review.

So we have two related issues here: one relating to the origins of the term, and
the second to its actual use or uses. Simeon's note is worth reading. It may be
wrong according to the original definition but it is definitely how it is used
today. Simplified, I agree but still very useful.

Niels Peter Lemche
Copenhagen





-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne af Peter T.
Daniels
Sendt: den 5 mars 2013 14:37
Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [ANE-2] emic/etic

Take a look at the introductory chapter by Headland, whose url I put in my last
message. It's not the dialog itself, but an introduction to the vagaries of the
terms since they were misappropriated by Harris. He finds that no two
anthropologists seem to use them in the same way -- and the only one he mentions
who seems to use them as they had been used for the previous 80 years is
Levi-Strauss (who would have learned them from Roman Jakobson at the time he was
generalizing the structural approach from language to culture). Headland says he
got them backwards ...

Headland also mentioned that there was quite a drop-off in their appearance
beginning around 1980.

There's a review article by M. Harris in Annual Review of Anthropology -- I
don't know whether it's the one Niels Peter cited from JSTOR -- I'll be printing
it out today so I can read it; in the first couple of pages, which I glanced
through on screen, he quotes a definition from Goodenough which exactly matches
the traditional usage, so where did Harris go wrong?
--
Peter T. Daniels                 grammatim@...
Jersey City


>________________________________
> From: Simeon Chavel <sbchavel@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 9:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>
>Peter,
>
>There is no question that anthropologists and other use emic and etic in the
way NP has indicated, etymology and historical semantics notwithstanding. Other
linguistic concepts have been accepted into and adapted by literary studies. The
phenomenon is not in and of itself strange or outrageous. Perhaps you could
clarify what is at stake here that warrants -- forgive me for saying it -- such
resistance.
>
>Sincerely,
>Simi
>--------------------------------------------------
>Simeon Chavel
>Assistant Professor of Hebrew Bible
>The University of Chicago Divinity School
>http://divinity.uchicago.edu/faculty/chavel.shtml
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>On Mar 4, 2013, at 2:50 PM, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...> wrote:
>
>> I find this attitude very bizarre in someone who is supposed to be an
objective moderator of a discussion list.
>>
>> Thank you for the Lett quotation; meanwhile I discovered the Headland et al.
(the al. happen to include Pike and Harris) reference and expect to be able to
read it on Thursday.
>>
>> Lett, unfortunately, assumes that his readers already know what both Pike and
Harris meant by the terms.
>>
>> In linguistics, the emic items are the ones that matter, the ones that make a
difference; there can be any number of different realizations of emic items, and
those realizations are the etic items.
>>
>> Thus in English there is only one phoneme /k/, and it has phonetic variants
[k^] before a front vowel, [q] before a back vowel, etc., and if you say
"qitchen" (using the Arabic-type [q]), everyone will know you said "kitchen"
(with a funny accent). Thus in English the k/q difference is phonetic but not
phonemic.
>>
>> But in Arabic, as everyone here knows, a kalb is a dog and a qalb is a heart,
so the k/q distinction _does_ make a difference, so it is phonemic and not
merely phonetic in Arabic.
>>
>> In Greek 1, and in Hebrew 5, letters have a special shape at the end of a
word. The difference between Mem and Mem Sofit is etic, because the two forms
have exactly the same function; but one of them happens only to occur at the end
of a word. It is an automatically conditioned variant.
>>
>> What is entirely unclear is how this contrast of "makes a difference/doesn't
make a difference" got transmogified (by M. Harris?) into a contrast of "what
subject knows/what observer knows." In particular, speakers of languages
generally do _not_ know that they are consistently making phonetic,
non-phonemic, distinctions in their speech. The English-speaker automatically
doesn't aspirate a stop after /s/ and has no idea that s/he aspirates stops in
some contexts, and doesn't aspirate stops in other contexts.
>>
>> The Evans-Pritchard examples is perfectly clear, however. The sainted
Evans-Pritchard made a bonehead mistake. It has nothing to do with the fact that
30 years later, someone (M. Harris?) chose to apply a pair of labels to such a
situation (that one in particular?).
>> --
>> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
>>
>> >________________________________
>> > From: Niels Peter Lemche npl@...>
>> >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
>> >Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 2:11 PM
>> >Subject: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Found this:
>> >http://faculty.ircc.cc.fl.us/faculty/jlett/Article%20on%20Emics%20an
>> >d%20Etics.htm
>> >
>> >I do not know anything of the status of professor James Lett. But from the
article on this distinction I quote:
>> >
>> >" Besides Pike, the scholar most closely associated with the
>> >concepts of "emics" and "etics" is the cultural anthropologist
>> >Marvin Harris, who has made the distinction between the emic and
>> >etic perspectives an integral part of his paradigm of cultural
>> >materialism. Pike and Harris continue to disagree about the precise
>> >definition and application of emics and etics (Headland et al.
>> >1990). The most significant area of their disagreement concerns the
>> >goal of the etic approach. For Pike, etics are a way of getting at
>> >emics; for Harris, etics are an end in themselves. From Pike's point
>> >of view, the etic approach is useful for penetrating, discovering,
>> >and elucidating emic systems, but etic claims to knowledge have no
>> >necessary priority over competing emic claims. From Harris's
>> >perspective, the etic approach is useful in making objective
>> >determinations of fact, and etic claims to knowledge are necessarily
>> >superior to competing emic claims. Pike believes
>> that objective knowledge is an illusion, and that all claims to knowledge are
ultimately subjective; Harris believes that objective knowledge is at least
potentially obtainable, and that the pursuit of such knowledge is essential for
a discipline that aspires to be a science."
>> >
>> >So some sources says Pike, other Harris. What was in this connection
important before Daniels started to confuse matters was the use of the
distinction which I found in material included in my Early Israel (Vetus
Testamentum Supplementum, 37, Brill 1985).
>> >
>> >And if Daniels would try to read what other people wrote, we would realize
that he distorted my Evans-Pritchard example. Evans-Pritchard studied the Nuers
in the 1930's. His book came out in 1940. His students visiting the place in the
1950s couldn't find them. The source for this is A. Southall, "Nuer and Dinka
are people: Ecology, ethnicity and logical possibility, Man N.S. 11 (1976),
463-491.
>> >
>> >I know that Daniels studies linguistics, but I didn't know that he also
mastered social anthropology. Evidently he got lost when he was confronted by a
use of the distinction that has for now been around for 40 years or more. In the
way he became the first ever to question the dichotomy between emic and etic as
normally used in anthrpology.
>> >
>> >Otherwise, it would be nice if he would step down and tell us what the
distinction really means in light of a generations abuse (in his eyes) of the
term.
>> >
>> >Niels Peter Lemche
>> >Copenhagen
>> >
>> >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> >Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne
>> >af Peter T. Daniels
>> >Sendt: den 4 mars 2013 19:47
>> >Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>> >Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >
>> >Thank you. Niels Peter is quite off base in suggesting that Pike had
anything to do with the misuse of his own terminology.
>> >
>> >And it would seem the reference to Evans-Pritchard was at least _two_
generations too early.
>> >--
>> >Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
>> >
>> >>________________________________
>> >> From: Emanuel Pfoh manupfoh@...>
>> >>To: "ANE-2@...@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 9:07 AM
>> >>Subject: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Anthropologists on the emic/etic distinction: I think Marvin Harris was one
of the first, if not the first one, in presenting a formal use of this
distinction in his *The Nature of Cultural Things* (New York 1964) and in his
*The Rise of Anthropological Theory* (London 1968).
>> >>
>> >>Emanuel Pfoh
>> >>National University of La Plata
>> >>Argentina
>> >>
>> >>________________________________
>> >>From: Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...>
>> >>To: "ANE-2@...@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 10:43 AM
>> >>Subject: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Can you provide the reference where someone so badly misinterprets the
terms? An anecdote about Evans-Pritchard's failure to learn the language of the
people he was "studying" doesn't seem to provide the origin. At least a
subsequent generation learned(!) of the distinction between endonyms and
exonyms.
>> >>
>> >>(I don't give a d... for what the anthropologists think.)
>> >>--
>> >>Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... Jersey City
>> >>
>> >>>________________________________
>> >>> From: Niels Peter Lemche npl@...>
>> >>>To: "ANE-2@...@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>>Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 10:45 AM
>> >>>Subject: SV: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Dear Peter,
>> >>>
>> >>>I do not think that the anthropologists will give a d... for what you
think. That is the way it is being used. In social anthropology, as well as in
sociology. It is quite like our old discussion about Canaanite script which a
historian did not make much sense but nevertheless was the term adopted by
philologists.
>> >>>
>> >>>There will probably be list among anthropologists where you can go and
make your complaints. They will probably say that you are right about the
origins of the term, but also say that this is the derived way we use it.
>> >>>
>> >>>The last sentence was a spin off from the discussion, and should be read
in context (which I am sure you understand).
>> >>>
>> >>>Niels Peter Lemche
>> >>>Copenhagen
>> >>>
>> >>>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> >>>Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne
>> >>>af Peter T. Daniels
>> >>>Sendt: den 3 mars 2013 16:32
>> >>>Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>> >>>Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>
>> >>>As I said, "The usual use in social anthropology" would not be a helpful
answer.
>> >>>
>> >>>That business about "what informer tells you" vs. "what you think
>> >>>yourself" has nothing whatsoever to do with the original
>> >>>lingusitic sense (and I do not see how it can be derived from it),
>> >>>nor with the detachment from the root "phon-" that was used by the
>> >>>linguistic theoretician Kenneth Pike at least since the early
>> >>>1950s. (Many -eme words were devised by Baudouin de Courtenay more
>> >>>than half a century before that.)
>> >>>
>> >>>If you meant "we don't know what the folks we call Philistines called
themselves," that's what you should have said.
>> >>>
>> >>>--
>> >>>Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... Jersey City
>> >>>
>> >>>>________________________________
>> >>>> From: Niels Peter Lemche npl@...>
>> >>>>To: "ANE-2@...@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>>>Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 9:27 AM
>> >>>>Subject: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>And I would only add: We have an idea about what other people called the
Philistines, but do we know what they called themselves? They are quite mute. It
is, however, interesting that the Assyrians when they became better acquainted
with the area, called "philistine" in the OT, they did not any longer use it.
They never talk about Philistine kings, but rather kings from various cities
mentioned by name, which would in the etic source in the OT be reckoned
"Philistine."
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Niels Peter Lemche
>> >>>>Copenhagen
>> >>>>
>> >>>>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> >>>>Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P�
>> >>>>vegne af Niels Peter Lemche
>> >>>>Sendt: den 3 mars 2013 15:25
>> >>>>Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>> >>>>Emne: SV: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I know of the origins of emic and etic, but these terms are used without
the addition og "phon-" in social anthropology to distinguish between what the
informer tells you and what you think yourself. It means that what one part
seems as the fact is not necessarily shared by the other part. The use of the
two concepts are in anthropology not as old as in linguistics, but quite common
and accepted.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>To illustrate the issue, in his well-known book "The Nuer" from the
thirties, Evans-Pritchard wrote about the "Nuer". When his students returned
after the war, they couldn't find them. It showed up that "Nuer" was the term
used by the Dinka about the people living on the other side of the river. The
people themselves did not know that they were the "Nuer".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I used the concept for the first time in Early Israel from 1985.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Niels Peter Lemche
>> >>>>Copenhagen
>> >>>>
>> >>>>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> >>>>Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P�
>> >>>>vegne af Peter T. Daniels
>> >>>>Sendt: den 3 mars 2013 15:16
>> >>>>Til: ANE-2 list
>> >>>>Emne: [ANE-2] emic/etic
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Toward the end of one of his long postings on "Palestine," Niels Peter
recently used the terms "emic" and "etic."
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I wonder what they mean to him?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>("The usual use by scholars of X" would not be a helpful answer.
>> >>>>The terms arose in linguistics almost 150 years ago and have been
>> >>>>reinterpreted many times.)
>> >>>>--
>> >>>>Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... Jersey City
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Is there online anywhere a chart of the gods in Gilgamesh that shows
their identities and relationships with one another?

With thanks in advance,

Jeffrey

--
---
Jeffrey B. Gibson  D.Phil. Oxon.
1500 W.  Pratt Blvd
Chicago, IL
jgibson000@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am being urged to correct the Babylon Chronicle's romanization of the name of
an Arabic newspaper.  They render it as "Al-Sharq Al-Wasat" whereas it renders
itself as "Asharq Al-Awsat"

http://tammuz.tumblr.com/post/44549674493/forbidden-museum-iraqis-cannot-visit-t\
heir-national
http://www.aawsat.com/details.asp?section=54&article=719594&issueno=12515#.UTYnH\
xnpYXK

-Chuck Jones-
New York

The Journal of Septuagint and Cognate Studies (JSCS) formerly, The Bulletin of
the International Organization of Septuagint and Cognate Studies (BIOSCS)
ISSN: 0145-3890
Volumes 1 (1968) - 33 (2000) are available online

See the entry in AWOL:
http://ancientworldonline.blogspot.com/2013/03/open-access-backlist-journal-jour\
nal-of.html

-Chuck Jones-
ISAW - NYU

With apologies for cross-posting, the Editors of the Journal of Inner Asian Art 
Archaeology are pleased to announce publication of volume 5. Published under the
aegis of the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (NYU), the journal
focuses on the archaeology, art, and cultural exchanges within the vast area
from the Iranian world to western China, and from the Siberian steppes to
Northwest India.

The table of contents is below, but you are invited to visit the Journal's
website via http://isaw.nyu.edu/publications. Click "Journal of Inner Asian Art
and Archaeology" to learn more about the journal, see images from the current
volume, and the tables of contents for previous volumes with a sample article
from each. Ordering information is there, but you may also contact
periodicals@... (subscriptions) and brepols.metapress.com (online access
on pay-per-view article basis).

Volume 5 contents:
Aleksandr NAYMARK, “Drachms of Bukhar Khuda Khunak"
Zafar PAIMAN/Michael ALRAM, “Tepe Naranj: A Royal Monastery on the High Ground
of Kabul, with a Commentary on the Coinage”
ZHANG He, “Preliminary Study of the Carpets from Sampula, Khotan"
DUAN Qing, “The Inscriptions on the Sampula Carpets"
CHING Chao-jung and OGIHARA Hirotoshi, “A Tocharian B Sale Contract on a
Wooden Tablet”
Giuseppe VIGNATO, "Inter-relationship of Sites, Districts, Groups and Individual
Caves in Kucha"
Satomi HIYAMA, “A New Identification of the Murals of Cave 118
(Hippokampenhöhle), Kizil, as the Story of King Māndhātar”
Nancy Shatzman STEINHARDT, “Demons on Lintels: Zoomorph and Meaning in Shanxi
Province”
Philip DENWOOD, “Tibetan Arts and the Tibetan ‘Dark Age,’ 842-996 CE”
BOOK REVIEWS
St John Simpson, The Begram Hoard: Indian Ivories from Afghanistan. London: The
British Museum Press, 2011 (Elizabeth Rosen Stone)
Historisches Museum der Pfalz Speyer, ed. Hunnen zwischen Asien und Europa.
Aktuelle Forschungen zur Archäologie und Kultur der Hunnen. Langenweissbach:
Beier & Beran, 2008 (Sören Stark)

From the Editors of the JIAAA,
Judith A. Lerner
Lilla Russell-Smith
Sören Stark




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"We are delighted to announce a successful digitization collaboration between
the Spurlock Museum of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (SMUI) and
the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation-supported research project "Creating a
Sustainable Cuneiform Digital Library" (CSCDL)..."

Via AWOL at:
http://ancientworldonline.blogspot.com/2013/03/cdli-news-spurlock-museum-of-univ\
ersity.html

-Chuck Jones-
Upper East Side
New York

Posted on behalf of NELC, Harvard

The Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at Harvard University
seeks applications for Lecturer on Assyriology.  Teaching duties will include
four courses per year at the undergraduate and graduate levels.  This full-time
appointment is for three years, non-renewable.  The start date is August 1,
2013.
Ph.D. is required by the start date of the appointment.
Research and teaching interests in the first millennium BCE are particularly
welcome.  Demonstrated excellence in teaching is desired.
All applicants must submit a cover letter, CV and three letters of
recommendation.  The application deadline is March 20, 2013.  Applications will
be received only via the Harvard employment web site,
http://academicpositions.harvard.edu/
Harvard is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer.  Applications from
women and minorities are strongly encourage.
For further information, please send email to:

Piotr Steinkeller, Professor of Assyriology

steinkel@...<mailto:steinkel@...>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Forwarded for the undersigned


I write to ask for your help in spreading news of a fellowship opportunity for
recent Ph.D. recipients who are interested in long-term careers outside the
academy. My organization, JSTOR, is acting as a partner in this fellowship
program.

The American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS) is accepting applications to
the Public Fellows Program. The program, which is in its third year, will place
20 recent Ph.D.s from the humanities and humanistic social sciences in two-year
staff positions at partnering organizations in government and the nonprofit
sector. Fellows will participate in the substantive work of these organizations
and receive professional mentoring. Compensation is competitive and includes
health benefits for the fellow. The Public Fellows Program is a fellowship
program offered by the American Council of Learned Societies with generous
funding from The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.

JSTOR is one of the 20 participating organizations in this year's Public Fellows
Program. We seek a recent Ph.D. recipient to work in our Content Development
Unit on building the next generation of discipline-based digital collections for
research and teaching. A full description of our open Public Fellow position, as
well as descriptions of the positions available at the other participating
organizations, eligibility criteria, and the online application form, are
available at http://www.acls.org/programs/publicfellows/. The deadline to apply
is Wednesday, March 27th, 2013 (6.00pm EDT). Questions about the program and all
the open positions should be directed to ACLS via the URL above.

Any help you can offer in forwarding this to interested recent Ph.D. recipients
or to your institution's career center would be greatly appreciated.

With many thanks,
Matt Loy
JSTOR
matthew.loy@...<mailto:Matthew.loy@...>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The first issue of the new "Journal of Eastern Mediterranean Archaeology and
Heritage Studies" from Penn State University Press, is now available online to
those of you who have assess to Project Muse
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_eastern_mediterranean_archaeology_and_he\
ritage_studies/

"Journal of Eastern Mediterranean Archaeology and Heritage Studies is a
peer-reviewed journal devoted to traditional, anthropological, social, and
applied archaeologies of the Eastern Mediterranean, encompassing both
prehistoric and historic periods. The journal�s geographic range spans three
continents and brings together, as no academic periodical has done before, the
archaeologies of Greece and the Aegean, Anatolia, the Levant, Cyprus, Egypt, and
North Africa."

-Chuck Jones-
ISAW - NYU

What is the meter (if any) in which the "standard edition" of Gilgamesh
is cast?

Jeffrey

--
---
Jeffrey B. Gibson  D.Phil. Oxon.
1500 W.  Pratt Blvd
Chicago, IL
jgibson000@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Colleagues,

please find attached the 2nd circular and a list of papers for the
Conference *//* "Archaeological Research in the Kurdistan Region of
Iraq", which is going to take place in Athens, November 1st-3rd 2013.
For any questions, please feel free to contact us.

Konstantinos Kopanias, John MacGinnis



--
Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias
Lecturer in Prehistoric Archaeology
University of Athens
Department of History and Archaeology - University Campus
GR 157 84 Athens - Greece
Tel.: 0030 210 7277431
Fax : 0030 210 7277432
e-mail :kkopanias@...  <mailto:kkopanias@...>
http://www.arbela.uoa.gr  <http://www.arbela.uoa.gr/>
http://www.facebook.com/arbela.gr








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Forwarded on behalf of Lotta Aunio, Editor of Studia Orientalia

"Studia Orientalia, published by the Finnish Oriental Society, will launch a new
electronic journal, Studia Orientalia Electronica (StOrE,
http://ojs.tsv.fi/index.php/StOrE/). In this journal we will publish the so
called article volumes of Studia Orientalia. StOrE is an Open Access journal
with continuous submission. With this new journal we hope to reach a wider
audience and also speed up our publication process.

The new web site will be published before the summer, and we welcome submissions
on any topic covered by the new journal (all fields of Asian and African
studies). Submissions can be made via email or the new web site."


Studia Orientalia Electronica in AWOL:
http://ancientworldonline.blogspot.com/2013/03/emerging-open-access-journal-stud\
ia.html

-Chuck Jones-
ISAW - NYU




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
summary and or references?

Regards,

Daniel Grolin
�rhus, Denmark


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this
extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents
contribution.
 
Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of  the nature
of religio-syncretic studies  The collation of essays in  Leopold & Jensen
(Syncretism in Religion,  Equinox, 2004),  helps to understand
why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and
outright taboo.  (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and
Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept in
the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of Religions).
 
No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been
compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence
that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian
thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE,  this topic nowhere achieves the status of a
recognised academic discipline.  Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence
on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it
a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution
to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought,
(Allworth 2002) has some references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is
not a core focus of his study.
 
One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of
particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as
the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents. 
This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable
materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to
hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of
the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the timeframe of maximum
contact with Judeo-Christianity.  
 
So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian syncretism
has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would be
delighted to learn of it.
 
Graham Hagens
Hamilton Ontario
 

________________________________
From: Daniel Grolin <dgrolin@...>
To: ane <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought

 
Hi,

I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
summary and or references?

Regards,

Daniel Grolin
Århus, Denmark

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm not sure what you mean by "Jewish thought," but there exists a robust
literature and on-going discussion about the interactions between Judaism and
Zoroastrianism, especially regarding the Babylonian Talmud. I'm preparing for a
conference now and have no time to cite specifics, but, for starters, see the
publications of Shaul Shaked; Yaakov Elman; Geoffrey Herman; and Shai Secunda
via a Google search or Academia.edu where publication lists and some actual
articles are posted. See, too, the conference proceedings of "Talmud in its
Iranian Context," eds. C. Bakhos and R. Shayegan (Mohr Siebeck, 2010). If you
contact me off-list in another week with what you've found, perhaps I can
supplement it.

You may also wish to post your query to Iranian-studies@yahoogroups.com and
SASAN-L@yahoogroups.com.
______
Judith Lerner, PhD
Research Associate
Institute for the Study of the Ancient World
New York University
15 East 84 Street
New York, NY 10028


On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Graham Hagens wrote:

> I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this
extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents
contribution.
>
> Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of  the nature
of religio-syncretic studies  The collation of essays in  Leopold & Jensen
(Syncretism in Religion,  Equinox, 2004),  helps to understand why syncretism
tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and outright taboo. 
(Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism:
From Theological Invective to a Concept in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991]
Syncretism and the History of Religions).
>
> No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been
compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence that Zoroastrianism
strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian thinking between
~600BCE-~300CE,  this topic nowhere achieves the status of a recognised academic
discipline.  Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several
passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment
anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy.
Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some
references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his
study.
>
> One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of particular
concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as the so-called 'Copenhagen
School', is that there are no primary documents.  This, not only because so many
Persian documents were written on perishable materials, but because
Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to hard copy until Islamic
times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of the earliest gathas, and a
millennium later than the timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
>
> So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian
syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would
be delighted to learn of it.
>
> Graham Hagens
> Hamilton Ontario
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Daniel Grolin <dgrolin@...>
> To: ane <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
> Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
summary and or references?
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel Grolin
> �rhus, Denmark
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I suggest:

"Zoroastrianism:  An Introduction"
by Jenny Rose, Visiting Associate Professor of Religion at Stanford.
(I.B. Tauris, 2011).
http://www.amazon.com/Zoroastrianism-Introduction-Introductions-Jenny-Rose/dp/18\
48850883

See also her "The Image of Zoroaster: The Persian Mage Through European
Eyes" (2000).


Clark Whelton
New York, NY



> Hi,
>
> I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
summary and or references?
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel Grolin
> �rhus, Denmark

Thank you Judith for this help
By the phrase 'Judeo-Christian ...thinking' I had in mind the pre-Talmudic
fusion of concepts during the last couple of centuries BCE which so
influenced Christianity.  I will pursue these various links.
 
Graham Hagens
Hamilton, ON 


________________________________
From: Judith Lerner <judith.lerner@...>
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought

 
I'm not sure what you mean by "Jewish thought," but there exists a robust
literature and on-going discussion about the interactions between Judaism and
Zoroastrianism, especially regarding the Babylonian Talmud. I'm preparing for a
conference now and have no time to cite specifics, but, for starters, see the
publications of Shaul Shaked; Yaakov Elman; Geoffrey Herman; and Shai Secunda
via a Google search or Academia.edu where publication lists and some actual
articles are posted. See, too, the conference proceedings of "Talmud in its
Iranian Context," eds. C. Bakhos and R. Shayegan (Mohr Siebeck, 2010). If you
contact me off-list in another week with what you've found, perhaps I can
supplement it.

You may also wish to post your query to mailto:Iranian-studies%40yahoogroups.com
and mailto:SASAN-L%40yahoogroups.com.
______
Judith Lerner, PhD
Research Associate
Institute for the Study of the Ancient World
New York University
15 East 84 Street
New York, NY 10028

On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Graham Hagens wrote:

> I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this
extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents
contribution.
>
> Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of the nature of
religio-syncretic studies The collation of essays in Leopold & Jensen
(Syncretism in Religion, Equinox, 2004), helps to understand why syncretism
tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and outright taboo.
(Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism:
From Theological Invective to a Concept in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991]
Syncretism and the History of Religions).
>
> No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been
compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence that Zoroastrianism
strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian thinking between
~600BCE-~300CE, this topic nowhere achieves the status of a recognised academic
discipline. Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several
passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment
anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy.
Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some
references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his
study.
>
> One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of particular
concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as the so-called 'Copenhagen
School', is that there are no primary documents. This, not only because so many
Persian documents were written on perishable materials, but because
Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to hard copy until Islamic
times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of the earliest gathas, and a
millennium later than the timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
>
> So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian
syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would
be delighted to learn of it.
>
> Graham Hagens
> Hamilton Ontario
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Daniel Grolin <mailto:dgrolin%40yahoo.com>
> To: ane <mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
> Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
summary and or references?
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel Grolin
> Århus, Denmark
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread and provided
leads.

Regards,

Daniel Grolin
Århus





>________________________________
> From: Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...>
>To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Sunday, 17 March 2013, 15:28
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
>
>
> 
>
>Thank you Judith for this help
>By the phrase 'Judeo-Christian ...thinking' I had in mind the pre-Talmudic
fusion of concepts during the last couple of centuries BCE which so
influenced Christianity.  I will pursue these various links.
> 
>Graham Hagens
>Hamilton, ON 
>
>________________________________
>From: Judith Lerner <judith.lerner@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 7:10 PM
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
>
> 
>I'm not sure what you mean by "Jewish thought," but there exists a robust
literature and on-going discussion about the interactions between Judaism and
Zoroastrianism, especially regarding the Babylonian Talmud. I'm preparing for a
conference now and have no time to cite specifics, but, for starters, see the
publications of Shaul Shaked; Yaakov Elman; Geoffrey Herman; and Shai Secunda
via a Google search or Academia.edu where publication lists and some actual
articles are posted. See, too, the conference proceedings of "Talmud in its
Iranian Context," eds. C. Bakhos and R. Shayegan (Mohr Siebeck, 2010). If you
contact me off-list in another week with what you've found, perhaps I can
supplement it.
>
>You may also wish to post your query to
mailto:Iranian-studies%40yahoogroups.com and mailto:SASAN-L%40yahoogroups.com.
>______
>Judith Lerner, PhD
>Research Associate
>Institute for the Study of the Ancient World
>New York University
>15 East 84 Street
>New York, NY 10028
>
>On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Graham Hagens wrote:
>
>> I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this
extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents
contribution.
>>
>> Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of the nature
of religio-syncretic studies The collation of essays in Leopold & Jensen
(Syncretism in Religion, Equinox, 2004), helps to understand why syncretism
tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and outright taboo.
(Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism:
From Theological Invective to a Concept in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991]
Syncretism and the History of Religions).
>>
>> No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been
compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence that Zoroastrianism
strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian thinking between
~600BCE-~300CE, this topic nowhere achieves the status of a recognised academic
discipline. Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several
passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment
anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy.
Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some
references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his
study.
>>
>> One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of particular
concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as the so-called 'Copenhagen
School', is that there are no primary documents. This, not only because so many
Persian documents were written on perishable materials, but because
Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to hard copy until Islamic
times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of the earliest gathas, and a
millennium later than the timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
>>
>> So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian
syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would
be delighted to learn of it.
>>
>> Graham Hagens
>> Hamilton Ontario
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Daniel Grolin <mailto:dgrolin%40yahoo.com>
>> To: ane <mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
>> Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
summary and or references?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Daniel Grolin
>> Århus, Denmark
>>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wrote a little summary about some of the proposed influences here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/19by72/wednesday_ama_jewish_histo\
ry_panel/c8n759a


Stewart Felker
University of Memphis






On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this
> extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2
> cents contribution.
>
> Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of  the
> nature of religio-syncretic studies  The collation of essays in  Leopold &
> Jensen (Syncretism in Religion,  Equinox, 2004),  helps to understand
> why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater
> and outright taboo.  (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and
> Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept
> in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of
> Religions).
>
> No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been
> compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence
> that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South
> Asian thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE,  this topic nowhere achieves the
> status of a recognised academic discipline.  Mary Boyce touches on
> Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I
> don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing
> like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's
> excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some references
> to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his study.
>
> One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of
> particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as
> the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents.
> This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable
> materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed
> to hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the
> compostion of the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the
> timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
>
> So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian
> syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I
> would be delighted to learn of it.
>
> Graham Hagens
> Hamilton Ontario
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Daniel Grolin <dgrolin@...>
> To: ane <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
> Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
> Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
> Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
> summary and or references?
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel Grolin
> �rhus, Denmark
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If I may throw in what might be a marginal addition to this thread, please note
that I published a few years ago two articles that discuss the material and
literary evidence for the connections between the Land of Israel/Palestine and
Iran (or Iranian occupied Babylonia), primarily during the Roman/Byzantine
periods.
See:
* Maeir, A. M. "Sassanica Varia Palaestiniensia: A Sassanian seal from T.
Istaba, Israel, and other Sassanian objects from the southern Levant." Iranica
Antiqua 35 (2000): 159-183.
Safrai, Z., and A. M. Maeir. "‮ אתא
אגרתא
ממערבא‬(" An Epistle Came from the
West"): Historical and Archaeological Evidence for the Ties between the Jewish
Communities in the Land of Israel and Babylonia during the Talmudic Period." The
Jewish Quarterly Review (2003): 497-531.

Hope this helps,

Aren Maeir
gath.wordpress.com

Dear all,

I would like to bring your attention to the appearance of the digital version of
Kubaba 3 (2012):

http://www.fcsh.unl.pt/~kubaba/KUBABA/kubaba_3_2012.html

With my very best regards,

Miguel Val�rio

Apologies for cross posting

The AIA is now accepting submissions for its 115th Annual Meeting, which will be
held in Chicago, Illinois, January 2-5, 2014. The late deadline for March
submissions is this Sunday, March 24th. All workshops, colloquia (including
joint AIA/APAcolloquia), and any open-session submissions needing an early
decision to acquire a visa or obtain funding must be submitted by this date.
Proposals submitted through March 24 require a $25 late submission fee. All
other open session papers will be accepted through the second set of deadlines
later this summer (August 6th and 20th).

The full Call for Papers (http://aia.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10453)
and submission instructions are available on the AIA website
(www.archaeological.org/annualmeeting). Please be sure to review these
instructions prior to submitting your abstract or session. All submissions must
be made by means of online submission via the AIA website. All submissions, of
course, must pass the PAMC's vetting process to be put onto the program. As with
past meetings, all submissions must be made electronically. The online
submission forms and supporting documents are available on the AIA website.

* View the 2014 Call for Papers -
http://aia.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10453

* Online Submission Forms -
http://aia.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10193

Deadline for Submissions
As in past years, all organized sessions must be submitted by the first round of
deadlines in March. Open session submissions may be submitted to meet either the
March deadlines (if an early decision is needed to acquire a visa or obtain
funding) or the second set of deadlines in August. The submission system will be
open through August 18, 2013. If you expect to be in the field without Internet
access you may submit your abstracts early, but you will not be notified of the
PAMC's decision until late September.

* First Deadline: Sunday, March 10, 2013 and Sunday, March 24 (with $25 fee)
* Second Deadline: Sunday, August 4, 2013 and Sunday, August 18 (with $25 fee)

Session Types
The AIA continues to offer both organized (workshops and colloquia) and open
sessions.  In addition, the AIA added the following new session types in 2013:

* Undergraduate Sessions: The AIA and Program for the Annual Meeting Committee
have created two special sessions specifically for undergraduate students who
would like an opportunity to present the results of their research at the Annual
Meeting, but are not yet ready to participate in the regular program. There will
be both an undergraduate colloquium for oral presentations, and an undergraduate
poster session. These sessions will provide a fantastic opportunity for
undergraduate students to experience the challenges and thrills of presenting at
a professional meeting, and they will be held to the same high standards as
other participants in the Annual Meeting.

* Lightning Session: This session is intended for brief five-minute
presentations on a particular idea (e.g. for a research project, relating to
one's dissertation, etc.) followed by five minutes of feedback from the audience
and other participants. The session will be very low pressure and informal, but
potentially very useful as a venue to float new ideas. The session will be held
outside of the regular session blocks.

* Poster Colloquia: The AIA and the Program for the Annual Meeting Committee are
for the first time soliciting poster colloquia. A poster colloquium should be
organized around a particular theme, just like a paper colloquium, and submitted
at the same time as paper colloquia.

The full Call for Papers
(http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10453) and submission
instructions are available on the AIA website
(www.archaeological.org/annualmeeting). Please review these instructions prior
to submitting your abstract or session. All submissions must be made
electronically by means of the online submission system via the AIA website. All
submissions, of course, must pass the PAMC's vetting process to be put onto the
program. The online submission forms and supporting documents are available on
the AIA website.

* View the 2013 Call for Papers:
http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10453
* Online Submission Forms: http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10193


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can any one here tell me when and where in Egyptian texts Isis is
described as "virgin"? Does the word that I understand to be used for
this -- hwnt  -- only mean "never having had intercourse"?  Is there any
truth to the claim that Isis was always regarded as a /perpetual virgin,
/let alone an "immaculate one" as is asserted by//William Williamson
(The Great Law: A Study of Religious Origins [Longmans, 1889]  26) in
his claim that

> the goddess Neith, who, like Isis, the mother of Horus, was known by
> the titles of Mother of God, Immaculate Virgin, Queen of Heaven, Star
> of the Sea, The Morning Star, The Intercessor.


If not,  what texts falsify this claim?

With thanks in advance,

Jeffrey

--
---
Jeffrey B. Gibson  D.Phil. Oxon.
1500 W.  Pratt Blvd
Chicago, IL
jgibson000@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Some useful worksJenny Rose, a Zoroastrian scholar, compiled a list (below) of
books
and articles that may be of interest to those who are studying
interactions between Zoroastrians and other religions in
the ANE.


Clark Whelton
New York



Zoroastrians and Jews:
Jon L. Berquist, Approaching Yehud: New Approaches to the Study of the Persian
Period, Brill, 2008
Lisbeth Fried, The Priest and the Great King: Temple-Palace relations in the
Persian Empire, Eisenbrauns, 2004
Charles Carter, The Emergence of Yehud in the Persian Period: A Social and
Demographic Study. JSOT Supp. 294. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1999.
Judah and the Judeans in the Neo-Babylonian Period. Edited by Oded Lipschits and
Joseph Blenkinsopp. Winona Lake, Ind.: Eisenbrauns, 2003.
Lester Grabbe, A History of the Jews and Judaism in the Second Temple Period.
Volume I. Yehud: A History of the Persian Province of Judah. London and New
York: T&T Clark, 2006.
Albertz, Rainer and Bob Becking, eds. Yahwism after the Exile: Perspectives on
Israelite Religion in the Persian Period. Papers read at the first meeting of
the European Association for Biblical Studies, Utrecht, 6-9 August, 2000. Assen:
Van Gorcum, 2003.
Persia and Torah: The Theory of Imperial Authorization of the Pentateuch. Edited
by James W. Watts, Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 2001.
Kyong-Jin Lee, The Authority and Authorization of Torah in the Persian Period.
Leuven: Peeters, 2011.
The Talmud in Its Iranian Context. Edited by Carol Bakhos and Rahim M. Shayegan,
Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2010
Lisbeth S. Fried, “Cyrus the Messiah?  The Historical Background to Isaiah
45:1,” Harvard Theological Review 95.4 (2002): 373-393.

Zoroastrians, Jews and Christians:
Greg Riley, The River of God: A New History of Christian Origins,  Harper 2001
Edwin Yamauchi, Persia and the Bible, Baker, 1990
John R. Hinnells, “Zoroastrian Influence on Judaism and Christianity: Some
Further Reflections.” In Zoroastrian and Parsi Studies: Selected Works of John
R. Hinnells, 73-92. Aldershot: Ashgate, 2000.
Anders Hultgård, “Zoroastrian Influences on Judaism, Christianity and
Islam.” In Michael Stausberg, Zarathustra and Zoroastrianism, 101-112. 
London: Equinox, 2008.
Norman Cohn,  “Zoroastrians, Jews and Christians.” In Cosmos, Chaos and the
World to Come, 220-231. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993.
Anders Hultgård,  “Persian Apocalypticism.” In The Encyclopaedia of
Apocalypticism Vol. 1. Edited by John J. Collins, 39-83. New York: Continuum,
1998.
Almut Hintze,  “The Saviour and the Dragon in Iranian and Jewish/Christian
Eschatology.” In Irano-Judaica IV: Studies Relating to Jewish Contacts with
Persian Culture Throughout the Ages. Edited by Shaul Shaked and Amnon Netzer,
72-90. Jerusalem: Ben-Zvi Institute, 1994.
John R. Hinnells, “Zoroastrian Saviour Imagery and its Influence on the New
Testament.” In Zoroastrian and Parsi Studies, 45-72. Aldershot: Ashgate, 2000.

Zoroastrians and Muslims:
Richard G. Hovannisian and Georges Sabagh, The Persian Presence in the Islamic
World, Cambridge, 1998.
Annemarie Schimmel, Mystical Dimensions of Islam, Chapel Hill, 1975
Philippe Gignoux, ed. Recurrent Patterns in Iranian Religions: From Mazdaism to
Sufism, Paris, 1992
Kathryn Babayan, Mystics, Monarchs and Messiahs: Cultural Landscapes of Early
Modern Iran, Harvard 2002


On the Date of Zarathushtra/Old Avestan:
A.S. Shahbazi, ‘Recent Speculations on the “Traditional Date of Zoroaster”
Studia Iranica 31 (2002): 7-45
Peter Kingsley, “The Greek orgin of the sixth-century dating of Zoroaster,”
BSOAS 53.2 (1990): 245-265
Almut Hintze,  (2009) 'Avestan Literature.' In: Emmerick, Ronald E. and Macuch,
Maria, (eds.), The Literature of Pre-Islamic Iran. Companion Volume I to A
History of Persian Literature. London: Taurus, pp. 1-71.
Almut Hintze, (1998) 'The Migrations of the Indo-Iranians and the Iranian
Sound-Change s > h.' In: Meid, Wolfgang, (ed.), Sprache und Kultur der
Indogermanen. Akten der 10.Fachtagung der Indo­germanischen Gesellschaft,
Innsbruck 22.-29.9.1996. Innsbruck: Institut für Sprachwissenschaft, 139-153,
Nicholas Sims-Williams (ed.): Indo-Iranian Languages and Peoples. Oxford 2000.
P.O. Skjaervø, “The Achaemenids and the Avesta,” in Birth of the Persian
Empire ed. V.S. Curtis and S. Stewart, I.B. Tauris, 2005: 52-84.
Skjaervø also has several articles in recent volumes of the New Interpreter’s
Dictionary of the Bible, including, Avesta, Parthia, Persia and the Bible and
Zoroaster: for publication details, see
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic991821.files//POS_CV_Biblio.pdf

Prof. Hintze’s inaugural lecture at SOAS can be seen here:
http://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff31114.php



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi to all,

does anybody have access to this article?

J.A. Thompson, "The Near Eastern Suzerain-Vassal Concept in the Religion of
Israel", Journal of Religious History, vol. 3, issue 1, pp. 1-19, June 1964.

If so, please contact me offline.

Thank you.

Best,

Emanuel Pfoh
National University of La Plata
Argentina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Emanuel,

Mucho gusto. Como esta usted? I found the article for you, and I will send it to
you offline. Others need not do the same.

Yours,

Doug Petrovich
Toronto

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Jgibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
>
> Can any one here tell me when and where in Egyptian texts Isis is
> described as "virgin"? Does the word that I understand to be used for this --
hwnt  -- only mean "never having had intercourse"?  Is there any truth to the
claim that Isis was always regarded as a /perpetual virgin, /let alone an
"immaculate one" as is asserted by//William Williamson (The Great Law: A Study
of Religious Origins [Longmans, 1889]  26) in his claim that
>
> > the goddess Neith, who, like Isis, the mother of Horus, was known by the
titles of Mother of God, Immaculate Virgin, Queen of Heaven, Star of the Sea,
The Morning Star, The Intercessor.
>
>
> If not,  what texts falsify this claim?
==========
As has been noted to you on EEF, virginity - as a moral state of no sexual
activity prior to marriage - was not a valued moral condition in ancient Egypt. 
In regards to Isis in particular, Plutarch's rendering of the myth indicates
that she and Osiris were so involved with one another from the beginning that
they mated with one another while in the womb of their mother, Nut (Plutarch, De
Iside et Osiride 12,356A).  Further, Isis is noted in myth to have been mated to
and ruled with Osiris for many years before his death, with the only
"parthenogenic" activity - if one may call it so - is her magical ability to
conceive Horus upon Osiris' body, after the death of her husband at the hands of
Sutekh.

I suspect, as the Isis cult spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world by the 4th
century BCE, the value of virginity was added as a principle through its Greek
interpretation. As noted on EEF, this may have come about with the conflation of
Isis with Neith, who in Greek interpretation was equated with the virgin
goddesses Artemis and Athena.  While Neith herself was not considered a "virgin"
deity, she was a powerful creatrix in her own right, as declared in the Saite
theology, who created the world and universe without a male consort.

Beyond this, I can think of no _Egyptian_ text which declares Isis (or any
Egyptian goddess, for that matter) was a "virgin."  The Greek interpretation
that Isis was virgin may have come about from the requirement that actresses who
played Isis and Nephthys were usually young twin girls, since the goddesses are
twins (Baines 1985). However, by the Ptolemaic period, when the "Songs of Isis
and Nephthys" were written, the requirements for the actresses had changed to
that of two women who were "pure of body and virgin, with the hair of their
bodies removed, their heads adorned with wigs...tambourines in their hands, and
their names inscribed on their arms, to wit Isis and Nephthys, and they shal
sing from the stanzas of this bood in the presence of the god [Osiris]."

However, chastity was a feature of the Isis cult as practiced in Greece and
Rome.  The best work on this topic is

Heyob, S. K. 1975 _The Cult of Isis Among Women in the Graeco-Roman World_.
�tudes Pr�liminaires aux Religion Orientales dans L'Empire Romain. Leiden:
Brill.

Within, Heyob notes that abstinence from sex - by both married and unmarried
adherents of the cult - is first noted in the Delos cults of Isis, which begin
about the 4th century BCE. These 10-day periods of abstention were required
before a woman was initiated into the cult, and again before the performance of
certain rituals.

Further, Greek interpretations of Isis name her as the protectress of the
chastity of lovers while parted, and as an extension of this protection, infant
daughters were often dedicated to Isis in order to protect their virginity.
Meanwhile women often fled to the temples of the goddess in order to protect
themselves from violation(Heyob 1975: 123).

There's also the whole issue of transmuting statues of Isis Lactans from the
cult into the Virgin Mary by the developing Christian cult.  There are a number
of publications along this line,hich I will provide later, if you are
interested.  This is also worth looking into,in my opinion, since Heyob notes
that early Christian writers generally commended the Isis cult, primarily on its
principles of sexual abstention (Heyob 1975: 123-6). This admiration of the
cult's sexual abstinence principles may have led early Christians into accept
the Isis Lactans statues more readily into churches.

References:

Baines, J. 1985. Egyptian Twins. Orientalia 5: 461-482.

Finally, I think the term to which you referred is /Hnwt/, not /hnwt/.  /Hnwt/
has the meaning of "Dame, Mistress" (Dame, Frau) and "mistress" as in the sense
of the master of a skill or division, i.e, Seshat as the "mistress" of recording
of history. As far as I am aware, nowhere does /Hnwt/ have the meaning of being
a "virgin" (Jungfrau) in the sexual sense.

I hope this assists.

Regards --

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Oriental Institute
Doctoral Programme in Oriental Studies [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom

Today, 28 March 2013, Parthia.com celebrates its 15th anniversary online.
The site has grown to more than 1,600 web pages and 18,000 photos about
Parthia. It is the highest ranked site after Wikipedia for "Parthia"
searches on Google, Bing and other major search engines. More than one
million people have visited the home page alone, and Parthia.com provides an
average of 31,000+ page views to 6,200+ visitors per month. Of all visitors,
82.1% add Parthia.com to their browser's favorites list.

Parthia.com is a noncommercial educational web site about the Parthians and
their sub-kingdoms of Characene, Elymais and Persis. The primary focus is on
numismatics, but the site is not just a virtual coin collection. Visiting
Parthia.com will give you insight into Parthian art, history, archaeology,
geography and more. It is an excellent place to find references to books,
articles, maps and other resources for further study.

Please take this opportunity to visit Parthia.com.

Chris Hopkins
www.parthia.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]