On Sat, 11 Sep 2010, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> No, it's not broken over two lines; it ceases to be a link after the
> #. As I said, I copy-pasted the whole thing and did not reach the page
> in question.
>
> Perhaps it only works for people who have Facebook.

It worked for me, and I don't have facebook.  Here's a link straight off
the page:

  http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=699801829626

> I wouldn't rely too much on the accuracy of the Tell Ahmar painting,
> because the pen-writing scribe's position is impossible (and why do you
> say leather rather than papyrus?).

I can't see why the pen-wielding scribe's position is impossible apart
from the fact that he seems to have six fingers (or rather five fingers
and a thumb) on his right hand.  I always thought this was an artistic
convention because the thumb isn't shown.  Clearly, the digit extended
along the pen is not the thumb but the forefinger, the thumb being out of
sight behind the pen.  This is exactly the way I hold a pen, apart from
the number of fingers that I can bring to the task.

The cuneiform scribe also seems to have five fingers on his right hand,
with the thumb being out of sight.  On the other hand (ahem), the
cuneiform scribe's left hand has only four fingers and a thumb but appears
to be a second right hand rather than a left hand.

But artistic conventions aside, even you can't deny that the manner of
holding the pen/brush and the manner of holding the stylus are portrayed
differently in this single painting, presumably with both figures drawn by
the same artist.  (And I say leather rather than papyrus because it looks
more like leather.  Papyrus, especially when new, is stiff, primarily
because of the crossways layering of the stalks during manufacture, not
floppy like leather.  The material in the painting behaves more like
leather than papyrus, but then we may be dealing with artistic conventions
again.)

> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a large
> number of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is
> there?

I don't know.  I'll get back to you as soon as we find their medicare
archive.

-- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... Jersey City

> From:  Robert M Whiting <whiting@...>
> >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 5:36:53 AM
> >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
> >
> >
> >On Fri, 10 Sep 2010, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> >> ... except there's something wrong with the url in the link -- it
> >> breaks between the # and the !, and copy-pasting the whole
> >> thing into ther box deletes the business end of it and I get a
> >> log-in-to-facebook page.
> >
> >To deal with discontinuous (broken over two or more lines) URLs, first
> >copy the first part of the URL (the first line) and paste it in the
> >location box of your browser. Then go back and copy the next part of
> >the URL (the next line) and paste it at the end of the previous part in
> >the browser's location box. Repeat until the entire URL is in the
> >browser's location box and then hit the go button. If you copy-paste
> >the entire thing, you will copy-paste a carriage return and the browser
> >will try to find the URL up to the point of the carriage return.
> >
> >On the position of the stylus for writing cuneiform tablets, I have
> >collected a few illustrations and uploaded them to the groups Photo
> >page (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/photos/album/1182997375/pic/list).
> >
> >The wall painting from Tell Ahmar shows the correct position of the
> >stylus. Note the difference of the position of the stylus and of the
> >pen/brush being used by the beardless scribe to write on leather. The
> >shaft of the stylus comes out under the hand on the right side of the
> >hand after having crossed the palm; the shaft of the pen/brush comes
> >out on the left side of the hand passing between the thumb and the
> >forefinger just as one would hold a pen or pencil.
> >
> >The modern illustrations show the right and wrong way to hold the
> >stylus. How much of the stylus protrudes is probably a matter of
> >personal preference, but certainly enough to keep the fingers clear of
> >the surface of the tablet while allowing the writer to position the
> >writing face accurately. When I write I generally have about half an
> >inch of stylus protruding. The forefinger rests on the edge of the
> >stylus opposite the writing face, making the stylus essentially an
> >extension of the forefinger. This gives the writer better control of
> >the positioning of the writing face and allows the writer to apply just
> >enough pressure to create an impression of the proper depth. How much
> >pressure is needed depends on the consistency of the clay, but usually
> >very little is needed.
> >
> >For most tablets (barring large, multi-column tablets), the tablet was
> >held in the left hand the stylus in the right. The direction of the
> >stylus was controlled by movement of the wrist and forearm, not by
> >switching the grip on the stylus, which remained constant. The tablet
> >would also be rotated with the wrist to make it easier to align the
> >stylus with the tablet for wedges of different orientations.

I went to the "OI History" page and clicking the link there produced a message
on the bottom frame of the window that the file was downloading, but no window
ever appeared.

The pen-scribe's position is impossible because the pen is perpendicular to the
paper. The painter thus wasn't a terribly careful observer (or there was some
weird sort of convention -- which isn't seen in the Assyrian reliefs showing a
pair of scribes), so he perhaps was just guessing about how the stylus-scribe
holds _his_ implement.

Or we could ask Joann Scurlock -- she has some _very_ fat books on cuneiform
medicine. --
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
Jersey City


>
>From: Robert M Whiting <whiting@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 10:18:31 AM
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
>
> 
>On Sat, 11 Sep 2010, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> No, it's not broken over two lines; it ceases to be a link after the
>> #. As I said, I copy-pasted the whole thing and did not reach the page
>> in question.
>>
>> Perhaps it only works for people who have Facebook.
>
>It worked for me, and I don't have facebook. Here's a link straight off
>the page:
>
>http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=699801829626
>
>> I wouldn't rely too much on the accuracy of the Tell Ahmar painting,
>> because the pen-writing scribe's position is impossible (and why do you
>> say leather rather than papyrus?).
>
>I can't see why the pen-wielding scribe's position is impossible apart
>from the fact that he seems to have six fingers (or rather five fingers
>and a thumb) on his right hand. I always thought this was an artistic
>convention because the thumb isn't shown. Clearly, the digit extended
>along the pen is not the thumb but the forefinger, the thumb being out of
>sight behind the pen. This is exactly the way I hold a pen, apart from
>the number of fingers that I can bring to the task.
>
>The cuneiform scribe also seems to have five fingers on his right hand,
>with the thumb being out of sight. On the other hand (ahem), the
>cuneiform scribe's left hand has only four fingers and a thumb but appears
>to be a second right hand rather than a left hand.
>
>But artistic conventions aside, even you can't deny that the manner of
>holding the pen/brush and the manner of holding the stylus are portrayed
>differently in this single painting, presumably with both figures drawn by
>the same artist. (And I say leather rather than papyrus because it looks
>more like leather. Papyrus, especially when new, is stiff, primarily
>because of the crossways layering of the stalks during manufacture, not
>floppy like leather. The material in the painting behaves more like
>leather than papyrus, but then we may be dealing with artistic conventions
>again.)
>
>> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a large
>> number of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is
>> there?
>
>I don't know. I'll get back to you as soon as we find their medicare
>archive.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a large number
> of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is there? --

It is a dynamic relationship between the tablet hand and the stylus hand - both
move. For straight vertical wedges, you tend to angle the tablet in a way
convenient for the stylus - angling the tablet slightly away from yourself (all
these motions are slight). For the odd sign like nu, that has an upward-pointing
wedge, you turn the top of the tablet "down" a little, so your stylus hand
remains relatively horizontal. The wrist movements in any case are not severe or
stressful. My only complaint about trying to write "like they did" is how small
I had to do it. With a pen, I write large, and writing small, and staying small,
was the only thing that ever proved "painful". I don't remember stress in the
hand or forearms. In any case, it is nowhere near the strain of typing on a
keyboard or typewriter.

As soon as I get some clay, and someone to record it, I'll demonstrate what I
mean.

I can't say how it is with larger tablets, since I haven't copied any of those.
If too large to hold, and resting on a table, I imagine the writing would get
tiring on the wrist, and maybe fingers - but no more so than writing a lot with
a pen tires the hand, especially when copying long texts carefully.

Thinking about analogies for holding the stylus, instead of knife or whip, the
best might be the knitting needle. Except that the stylus is smaller and held
closer to the tip. Do knitters complain a lot about carpal tunnel syndrome?

Ross Caldwell


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> I went to the "OI History" page and clicking the link there produced a
> message on the bottom frame of the window that the file was downloading,
> but no window ever appeared.

Presumably the video just doesn't like you and will do everything in its
power to keep you from viewing it.

> The pen-scribe's position is impossible because the pen is perpendicular
> to the paper.

Ah, then, either we are looking at different pictures or else we have
different definitions of perpendicular in our various idiolects.

In the picture I am looking at, the writing instrument meets the writing
surface at about a 45-degree angle (much the same angle as a pen or pencil
does when I use one) and in my idiolect "perpendicular" means 'at right
angles' so these two observations are contradictory.

> The painter thus wasn't a terribly careful observer (or there was some
> weird sort of convention -- which isn't seen in the Assyrian reliefs
> showing a pair of scribes), so he perhaps was just guessing about how
> the stylus-scribe holds _his_ implement.

I rather think the painter was a fairly careful observer, especially when
compared to the representations found in sculpture.  First of all,
painting is a freer medium with fewer constraints than sculpture.
Scribes represented in reliefs show the scribe holding the stylus
diagonally across his open palm with the thumb, a position from which it
is impossible to write.  The most one can do is jab at the tablet with the
end of the stylus, which is not the way cuneiform is written.  I doubt
that the sculptor had any more idea of how to write cuneiform than most
modern people do.  In fact, scribes in reliefs seem to hold the stylus in
much the same manner in which a sculptor would hold a chisel.  I suspect
that the sculptor simply transferred his technique for creating the
cuneiform that was often part of his work to the scribe.

Second, I expect that the painter was likely to be familiar with how to
hold a brush, although the technique for painting and drawing signs might
have been different.  The very fact that the stylus is shown as held
differently from the brush/pen and the fact that the painter is likely to
have known how to hold a brush and is not simply transferring his own
technique to the cuneiform scribe as the sculptor is likely doing argues
for authenticy.  If the painter is transferring his own technique
anywhere, it is to the brush/pen-wielding scribe.

> Or we could ask Joann Scurlock -- she has some _very_ fat books on
> cuneiform medicine.

I'll see if I can come up with a Sumerian or Akkadian term for "scribe's
wrist".

Bob Whiting
whiting@...

> >From: Robert M Whiting <whiting@...>
> >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 10:18:31 AM
> >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
> >
> >
> >On Sat, 11 Sep 2010, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> >> No, it's not broken over two lines; it ceases to be a link after the
> >> #. As I said, I copy-pasted the whole thing and did not reach the page
> >> in question.
> >>
> >> Perhaps it only works for people who have Facebook.
> >
> >It worked for me, and I don't have facebook. Here's a link straight off
> >the page:
> >
> >http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=699801829626
> >
> >> I wouldn't rely too much on the accuracy of the Tell Ahmar painting,
> >> because the pen-writing scribe's position is impossible (and why do you
> >> say leather rather than papyrus?).
> >
> >I can't see why the pen-wielding scribe's position is impossible apart
> >from the fact that he seems to have six fingers (or rather five fingers
> >and a thumb) on his right hand. I always thought this was an artistic
> >convention because the thumb isn't shown. Clearly, the digit extended
> >along the pen is not the thumb but the forefinger, the thumb being out of
> >sight behind the pen. This is exactly the way I hold a pen, apart from
> >the number of fingers that I can bring to the task.
> >
> >The cuneiform scribe also seems to have five fingers on his right hand,
> >with the thumb being out of sight. On the other hand (ahem), the
> >cuneiform scribe's left hand has only four fingers and a thumb but appears
> >to be a second right hand rather than a left hand.
> >
> >But artistic conventions aside, even you can't deny that the manner of
> >holding the pen/brush and the manner of holding the stylus are portrayed
> >differently in this single painting, presumably with both figures drawn by
> >the same artist. (And I say leather rather than papyrus because it looks
> >more like leather. Papyrus, especially when new, is stiff, primarily
> >because of the crossways layering of the stalks during manufacture, not
> >floppy like leather. The material in the painting behaves more like
> >leather than papyrus, but then we may be dealing with artistic conventions
> >again.)
> >
> >> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a large
> >> number of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is
> >> there?
> >
> >I don't know. I'll get back to you as soon as we find their medicare
> >archive.

Robert M Whiting

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/photos/album/1182997375/pic/list

I found I was unable to access this URL - is there a membership list?

Bea


Beatrice Hopkinson,
Hon. Secretary Los Angeles Branch, Oxford University Society
Board Member, Archaeological Institute of America
President, Droitwich Brine Springs and Archaeological Trust, U.K
Affilliate, Cotsen institute of Archaeology, UCLA
(beahopkinson@...)

818 766 7780

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010, Beatrice Hopkinson wrote:

> Robert M Whiting
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/photos/album/1182997375/pic/list
>
> I found I was unable to access this URL - is there a membership list?

Yes, unlike messages, you have to be a member of the ANE-2 group to access
things like photos, links, and files.  Since you are a member of the group
this should not be a problem; however, you also have to be signed in to
Yahoo in some way or another so that Yahoo can recognize you as a member
of the group.  If you try to go directly to the URL without being signed
in to Yahoo, you will doubtless be rejected.

Try going to the group's home page (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/)
and then sign in using your Yahoo ID and password (click on the link that
says "Sign In" at the top of the page).  You should then be able to click
on the link in the navigation bar on the left that says "Photos".  Then
you can click on the album that says "Scribes".  Of course, once you sign
in, you should be able to go directly to the URL above.

Bob Whiting
whiting@...

Am 11.09.2010 um 12:49 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:

> I wouldn't rely too much on the accuracy of the Tell Ahmar painting, because
the
> pen-writing scribe's position is impossible (and why do you say leather rather
> than papyrus?).
>
>
Indeed, what would be obvious for everyone who has done this kind of writing
fluently one whole day long.
> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a large number
> of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is there? --
>
Excellent argument!
>


Reinhard G. Lehmann
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann
Akademischer Direktor
Forschungsstelle für Althebräische Sprache und Epigraphik
Fachbereich 01: Evangelisch-Theologische Fakultät
Johannes Gutenberg-Universität Mainz
D-55099 Mainz
Germany
lehmann@...
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de
http://www.ev.theologie.uni-mainz.de/297.php
Subsidia et Instrumenta Linguarum Orientis (SILO):
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/182.php
10. Mainz International Colloquium on Ancient Hebrew (MICAH):
http://www.micah.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/204.php



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ross Sinclair Caldwell

>Do knitters complain a lot about carpal tunnel syndrome?

I did a lot of knitting of balaclavas and socks in khaki wool during
World War II for troops at the front.  We even knitted while watching
movies for an hour or so, and all day long depending on the concurrent
activity - but perhaps that was not as long as we do now on computers -
some several hours at a time!   Only in the past decade did I discover
carpal tunnel having used my Mac Power Book since 1985 for hours on end -
which probably explains excessive use :( !


Bea


Beatrice Hopkinson,
Hon. Secretary Los Angeles Branch, Oxford University Society
Board Member, Archaeological Institute of America
President, Droitwich Brine Springs and Archaeological Trust, U.K
Affilliate, Cotsen institute of Archaeology, UCLA
(beahopkinson@...)

818 766 7780

Excellent analogy.

Kinitting involves the fingertips, not the wrist. --
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
Jersey City

>
>From: Ross Sinclair Caldwell <belmurru@...>
>To: ane ane <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 11:31:45 AM
>Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
>
>>
>> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a large
number
>
>> of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is there? --
>
>It is a dynamic relationship between the tablet hand and the stylus hand - both
>move. For straight vertical wedges, you tend to angle the tablet in a way
>convenient for the stylus - angling the tablet slightly away from yourself (all
>these motions are slight). For the odd sign like nu, that has an
upward-pointing
>wedge, you turn the top of the tablet "down" a little, so your stylus hand
>remains relatively horizontal. The wrist movements in any case are not severe
or
>stressful. My only complaint about trying to write "like they did" is how small
>I had to do it. With a pen, I write large, and writing small, and staying
small,
>was the only thing that ever proved "painful". I don't remember stress in the
>hand or forearms. In any case, it is nowhere near the strain of typing on a
>keyboard or typewriter.
>
>
>As soon as I get some clay, and someone to record it, I'll demonstrate what I
>mean.
>
>
>I can't say how it is with larger tablets, since I haven't copied any of those.
>If too large to hold, and resting on a table, I imagine the writing would get
>tiring on the wrist, and maybe fingers - but no more so than writing a lot with
>a pen tires the hand, especially when copying long texts carefully.
>
>
>Thinking about analogies for holding the stylus, instead of knife or whip, the
>best might be the knitting needle. Except that the stylus is smaller and held
>closer to the tip. Do knitters complain a lot about carpal tunnel syndrome?
>
>Ross Caldwell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been meaning to add ... the pen-writing scribe's pen position is what would
be appropriate for brush-writing (as in China), so it may well be that (as Bob
seemed to suggest) the painter was applying his own technique to that scribe,
rather than working from observation.
 --
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
Jersey City


>
>From: R. Lehmann <lehmann@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 11:38:54 AM
>Subject: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
>
> 
>
>Am 11.09.2010 um 12:49 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> I wouldn't rely too much on the accuracy of the Tell Ahmar painting, because
>>the
>>
>> pen-writing scribe's position is impossible (and why do you say leather
rather
>
>> than papyrus?).
>>
>>
>Indeed, what would be obvious for everyone who has done this kind of writing
>fluently one whole day long.
>> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a large
number
>
>> of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is there? --
>>
>Excellent argument!
>>
>
>Reinhard G. Lehmann
>¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There's been a posting delay at ANE -- I'm only just getting messages from
Saturday evening, and my note on knitting hasn't appeared yet -- Bea, do you
find that most of your knitting motion is in the wrist, or in the fingers? It's
been a long time since I did any, but ISTR that knitters, like pianists and
typists, are taught to do it with the fingers and not the wrists.
 --
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
Jersey City


>
>From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 9:09:03 PM
>Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
>
> 
>Ross Sinclair Caldwell
>
>>Do knitters complain a lot about carpal tunnel syndrome?
>
>I did a lot of knitting of balaclavas and socks in khaki wool during
>World War II for troops at the front. We even knitted while watching
>movies for an hour or so, and all day long depending on the concurrent
>activity - but perhaps that was not as long as we do now on computers -
>some several hours at a time! Only in the past decade did I discover
>carpal tunnel having used my Mac Power Book since 1985 for hours on end -
>which probably explains excessive use :( !
>
>Bea

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--------------------------------------------------
From: "R. Lehmann" <lehmann@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:38 AM
To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?

>
> Am 11.09.2010 um 12:49 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> I wouldn't rely too much on the accuracy of the Tell Ahmar painting,
>> because the
>> pen-writing scribe's position is impossible (and why do you say leather
>> rather
>> than papyrus?).
>>
>>
> Indeed, what would be obvious for everyone who has done this kind of
> writing fluently one whole day long.
>> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a large
>> number
>> of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is there? --
>>
> Excellent argument!
>>
>
>
> Reinhard G. Lehmann


I have been fascinated with writing and how people write since I was in high
school.  One of the things I noticed while looking around the classroom was
the manner in which each person held their pencil or pen when writing.
There is a standard way to hold a writing instrument but everyone settles
into their own method of comfort and approach.  Of course, clay is much
different than papyrus or skin where a writing instrument is dragged along
the surface leaving a trail of ink.  Do that with clay and you get a messy
furrow.  Clay needs to be held in the hand and impressed but that still
leaves room for individuality in execution.  Is there evidence from the
ancient tablets that the angle of approach for the stylus into the clay is
almost universally the same, ruling out individualistic methods of approach?
How about left-handed scribes?  Surely there were some.

Jack Kilmon

A well-known left-handed(? anyway, the writing slopes to the left instead of the
right) tablet is the Aramaic incantation text TCL 6 58 studied by Gordon,
Geller, and many in between. Geller offers a new handcopy in JEOL 35-36: 134. 

PS Jack I wrote to you some months ago requesting permission to use one or more
of your fonts in a publication but received no reply. --
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
Jersey City


>
>From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Mon, September 13, 2010 4:38:41 PM
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
>
>I have been fascinated with writing and how people write since I was in high
>school. One of the things I noticed while looking around the classroom was
>the manner in which each person held their pencil or pen when writing.
>There is a standard way to hold a writing instrument but everyone settles
>into their own method of comfort and approach. Of course, clay is much
>different than papyrus or skin where a writing instrument is dragged along
>the surface leaving a trail of ink. Do that with clay and you get a messy
>furrow. Clay needs to be held in the hand and impressed but that still
>leaves room for individuality in execution. Is there evidence from the
>ancient tablets that the angle of approach for the stylus into the clay is
>almost universally the same, ruling out individualistic methods of approach?
>How about left-handed scribes? Surely there were some.
>
>Jack Kilmon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Peter.

I am very sorry. I was offline for some time as a result of a health
problem. Of course you can use anything from my site.  I mention on my site
that they are there for both scholars such as yourself or students to use
however they may be helpful.

Thanks for this reference.

Jack Kilmon

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 6:08 PM
To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?

> A well-known left-handed(? anyway, the writing slopes to the left instead
> of the
> right) tablet is the Aramaic incantation text TCL 6 58 studied by Gordon,
> Geller, and many in between. Geller offers a new handcopy in JEOL 35-36:
> 134.
>
> PS Jack I wrote to you some months ago requesting permission to use one or
> more
> of your fonts in a publication but received no reply. --
> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
> Jersey City
>
>
>>
>>From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
>>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Mon, September 13, 2010 4:38:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
>>
>>I have been fascinated with writing and how people write since I was in
>>high
>>school. One of the things I noticed while looking around the classroom was
>>the manner in which each person held their pencil or pen when writing.
>>There is a standard way to hold a writing instrument but everyone settles
>>into their own method of comfort and approach. Of course, clay is much
>>different than papyrus or skin where a writing instrument is dragged along
>>the surface leaving a trail of ink. Do that with clay and you get a messy
>>furrow. Clay needs to be held in the hand and impressed but that still
>>leaves room for individuality in execution. Is there evidence from the
>>ancient tablets that the angle of approach for the stylus into the clay is
>>almost universally the same, ruling out individualistic methods of
>>approach?
>>How about left-handed scribes? Surely there were some.
>>
>>Jack Kilmon
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Its all in the fingers for both touch typing and for knitting (as I
recall - don't do  much of that nowadays!).  However, touch typing has
indeed affected my wrist.  I don't know how relevant that is though as it
may depend on what angle you rest your wrist on the laptop keyboard.  I
spent a lot of time writing on a typewriter (pre-computer days) and my
arms didn't go numb from the carpel tunnel problems I have today - but
then I spend a lot of time on the laptop.  In different positions my
fingers, wrist and arm are aligned, but in other positions my fingers are
higher than my arm.

On the other hand when writing - we might ask was the scribe sitting on
high stool, or desk high stool - would that not make a difference o the
angle at which he was writing?

We are of course presuming that what we do today is what a scribe would
do then and that might not be the case at all - they specialized in what
they did and presumably the conditions  were made suitable for that -
particularly as it must have been much more tedious for them if they held
the wet tablet in one hand and worked with the other - wouldn't the elbow
angle come into play under those conditions?

TOL

Bea


Peter T. Daniels

>There's been a posting delay at ANE -- I'm only just getting messages from
>Saturday evening, and my note on knitting hasn't appeared yet -- Bea, do you
>find that most of your knitting motion is in the wrist, or in the fingers?
>It's
>been a long time since I did any, but ISTR that knitters, like pianists and
>typists, are taught to do it with the fingers and not the wrists.
> --
>Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
>Jersey City
>
>
>>
>>From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...>
>>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 9:09:03 PM
>>Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
>>
>> 
>>Ross Sinclair Caldwell
>>
>>>Do knitters complain a lot about carpal tunnel syndrome?
>>
>>I did a lot of knitting of balaclavas and socks in khaki wool during
>>World War II for troops at the front. We even knitted while watching
>>movies for an hour or so, and all day long depending on the concurrent
>>activity - but perhaps that was not as long as we do now on computers -
>>some several hours at a time! Only in the past decade did I discover
>>carpal tunnel having used my Mac Power Book since 1985 for hours on end -
>>which probably explains excessive use :( !
>>
>>Bea
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


Beatrice Hopkinson,
Hon. Secretary Los Angeles Branch, Oxford University Society
Board Member, Archaeological Institute of America
President, Droitwich Brine Springs and Archaeological Trust, U.K
Affilliate, Cotsen institute of Archaeology, UCLA
(beahopkinson@...)

818 766 7780

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> There's been a posting delay at ANE -- I'm only just getting messages
> from Saturday evening, and my note on knitting hasn't appeared yet --
> Bea, do you find that most of your knitting motion is in the wrist, or
> in the fingers? It's been a long time since I did any, but ISTR that
> knitters, like pianists and typists, are taught to do it with the
> fingers and not the wrists.

Fortunately, Bea is not the world's sole surviving knitter.  There are a
gazillion videos and pictures on the internets that show how knitting is
done.

Knitting needles are held, like the stylus, underneath the hand crossing
the palm.  The fingers may be used to position the yarn or maintain
tension on it, but basically the grip on the knitting needles does not
change as one knits until or unless one has to reposition the yarn or
begin a new sequence of stitches at which point the needle will be
released until the task is performed but then picked up in the same manner
as before.

Unlike playing the piano or typing, where individual fingers have
different targets simultaneously (or nearly simultaneously), knitting
involves moving the point of one needle around a more or less fixed point
to pick up the yarn and move it around itself.  This action is
accomplished with movements of the wrists and forearms, not the fingers.
Furthermore, much like writing a hand-held tablet, the two hands work in
coordination making it possible to move the point of the knitting needle
(or stylus) to the correct position relative to the other needle (or
tablet) without undue strain on either hand.

The main difference is that in knitting the needles are held with the
points upward (to keep the yarn from slipping off) while in writing
cuneiform the stylus is held with the point slightly downward (actually,
very nearly horizontal for most of the time) so that the corner of the
stylus can be pressed into the clay to make the triangular impressions.

Bob Whiting
whiting@...

> >From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...>
> >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 9:09:03 PM
> >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
> >
> >
> >Ross Sinclair Caldwell
> >
> >>Do knitters complain a lot about carpal tunnel syndrome?
> >
> >I did a lot of knitting of balaclavas and socks in khaki wool during
> >World War II for troops at the front. We even knitted while watching
> >movies for an hour or so, and all day long depending on the concurrent
> >activity - but perhaps that was not as long as we do now on computers -
> >some several hours at a time! Only in the past decade did I discover
> >carpal tunnel having used my Mac Power Book since 1985 for hours on end -
> >which probably explains excessive use :( !
> >
> >Bea

Jack,
I have been fascinated by script, scribes and how they did it, too.
When I was a little boy, my father, a German modern artist, painter and
calligrapher, took me to the Wannsee (a famous lake in Berlin) to cut reed and
taught me how to cut a calamus or broad nib reed pen ant the like and how to
write Roman antiqua, which I was acquainted to shortly after I came to school.
That's the reason why I dedicated my Ahirom-inscription book to my father...
Alas, being a German and having written it in German, it seems as if no one will
take notice.

I actually do not know whether there is evidence of the angle approach in clay
for cuneiform, but for writing angles in linear (mainly Aramaic) script,
including argillary, take the wonderful, but never again published dissertation
of Gerrit van der Kooij, Early North-West Semitic Script Traditions. An
Archaeological Study of the Linear Alphabetic Scripts upto c. 500 B.C.; Diss.
Leiden 1986.
It seems as if the writing angle is dependent on regional, areal, or social
factors and indeed - at least in part -  rules out individual factors.
On writing angle in early Phoenician flat writing, in Ancient Hebrew, and also
some notes on left-handedness, I have also written a little bit myself.

Reinhard G. Lehmann

¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann
Akademischer Direktor
Forschungsstelle für Althebräische Sprache und Epigraphik
Fachbereich 01: Evangelisch-Theologische Fakultät
Johannes Gutenberg-Universität Mainz
D-55099 Mainz
Germany
lehmann@...
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de
http://www.ev.theologie.uni-mainz.de/297.php
Subsidia et Instrumenta Linguarum Orientis (SILO):
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/182.php
10. Mainz International Colloquium on Ancient Hebrew (MICAH):
http://www.micah.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/204.php




Am 13.09.2010 um 22:38 schrieb Jack Kilmon:

>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "R. Lehmann" <lehmann@...>
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:38 AM
> To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
>
> >
> > Am 11.09.2010 um 12:49 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
> >
> >> I wouldn't rely too much on the accuracy of the Tell Ahmar painting,
> >> because the
> >> pen-writing scribe's position is impossible (and why do you say leather
> >> rather
> >> than papyrus?).
> >>
> >>
> > Indeed, what would be obvious for everyone who has done this kind of
> > writing fluently one whole day long.
> >> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a large
> >> number
> >> of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is there? --
> >>
> > Excellent argument!
> >>
> >
> >
> > Reinhard G. Lehmann
>
> I have been fascinated with writing and how people write since I was in high
> school. One of the things I noticed while looking around the classroom was
> the manner in which each person held their pencil or pen when writing.
> There is a standard way to hold a writing instrument but everyone settles
> into their own method of comfort and approach. Of course, clay is much
> different than papyrus or skin where a writing instrument is dragged along
> the surface leaving a trail of ink. Do that with clay and you get a messy
> furrow. Clay needs to be held in the hand and impressed but that still
> leaves room for individuality in execution. Is there evidence from the
> ancient tablets that the angle of approach for the stylus into the clay is
> almost universally the same, ruling out individualistic methods of approach?
> How about left-handed scribes? Surely there were some.
>
> Jack Kilmon
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--------------------------------------------------
From: "R. Lehmann" <lehmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 5:25 AM
To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?

> Jack,
> I have been fascinated by script, scribes and how they did it, too.
> When I was a little boy, my father, a German modern artist, painter and
> calligrapher, took me to the Wannsee (a famous lake in Berlin) to cut reed
> and taught me how to cut a calamus or broad nib reed pen ant the like and
> how to write Roman antiqua, which I was acquainted to shortly after I came
> to school. That's the reason why I dedicated my Ahirom-inscription book to
> my father... Alas, being a German and having written it in German, it
> seems as if no one will take notice.

  When I was a child in the early 50's and being taught Aramaic , the best
texts were in German., Dalman, Torrey, Schulthess.  As a young man I
expected any seminal work on Aramaic to be in German.  I cut my own calamus
to this day.

>
> I actually do not know whether there is evidence of the angle approach in
> clay for cuneiform, but for writing angles in linear (mainly Aramaic)
> script, including argillary, take the wonderful, but never again published
> dissertation of Gerrit van der Kooij, Early North-West Semitic Script
> Traditions. An Archaeological Study of the Linear Alphabetic Scripts upto
> c. 500 B.C.; Diss. Leiden 1986.
> It seems as if the writing angle is dependent on regional, areal, or
> social factors and indeed - at least in part -  rules out individual
> factors.
> On writing angle in early Phoenician flat writing, in Ancient Hebrew, and
> also some notes on left-handedness, I have also written a little bit
> myself.

Do these studies take into account formal scribal vs non-scribal hands?

Jack Kilmon
San Antonio, TX

>
> Reinhard G. Lehmann
>
> ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
> Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann
> Akademischer Direktor
> Forschungsstelle für Althebräische Sprache und Epigraphik
> Fachbereich 01: Evangelisch-Theologische Fakultät
> Johannes Gutenberg-Universität Mainz
> D-55099 Mainz
> Germany
> lehmann@...
> http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de
> http://www.ev.theologie.uni-mainz.de/297.php
> Subsidia et Instrumenta Linguarum Orientis (SILO):
> http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/182.php
> 10. Mainz International Colloquium on Ancient Hebrew (MICAH):
> http://www.micah.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/204.php
>
>
>
>
> Am 13.09.2010 um 22:38 schrieb Jack Kilmon:
>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "R. Lehmann" <lehmann@...>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:38 AM
>> To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: [ANE-2] Re: how did ancient scribes write?
>>
>> >
>> > Am 11.09.2010 um 12:49 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
>> >
>> >> I wouldn't rely too much on the accuracy of the Tell Ahmar painting,
>> >> because the
>> >> pen-writing scribe's position is impossible (and why do you say
>> >> leather
>> >> rather
>> >> than papyrus?).
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Indeed, what would be obvious for everyone who has done this kind of
>> > writing fluently one whole day long.
>> >> If most of the scribal action is in the wrist, there should hbe a
>> >> large
>> >> number
>> >> of complaints about carpal tunnel syndrome among scribes. Is there? --
>> >>
>> > Excellent argument!
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Reinhard G. Lehmann
>>
>> I have been fascinated with writing and how people write since I was in
>> high
>> school. One of the things I noticed while looking around the classroom
>> was
>> the manner in which each person held their pencil or pen when writing.
>> There is a standard way to hold a writing instrument but everyone settles
>> into their own method of comfort and approach. Of course, clay is much
>> different than papyrus or skin where a writing instrument is dragged
>> along
>> the surface leaving a trail of ink. Do that with clay and you get a messy
>> furrow. Clay needs to be held in the hand and impressed but that still
>> leaves room for individuality in execution. Is there evidence from the
>> ancient tablets that the angle of approach for the stylus into the clay
>> is
>> almost universally the same, ruling out individualistic methods of
>> approach?
>> How about left-handed scribes? Surely there were some.
>>
>> Jack Kilmon
>>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

This is just to inform that KUSATU vol. 11 / 2010 is already available:

KUSATU 11/2010
Kleine Untersuchungen zur Sprache des Alten
Testaments und seiner Umwelt
ISBN 978-3-89991-108-4

herausgegeben von Reinhard G. Lehmann und Johannes F. Diehl

in Verbindung mit Holger Gzella (Leiden), Robert Holmstedt (Toronto),
Regine Hunziker-Rodewald (Strasbourg), Miklos Köszeghy (Budapest),
Dirk Schwiderski (Heidelberg) und Peter Stein (Jena)

Contents:

Klaus Beyer
Die Sprache der moabitischen Inschriften
p. 5-41

Kathrin Egger
Die verbalen Funktionen des Partizips im Genesis Apokryphon
p. 43-108

Peter van der Veen
An Inscribed Jar Handle from Ras el-'Amud. A new reading and an absolute date.
p. 109-121

The volume can be ordered at the price of 15 Euro from
http://www.hartmutspenner.de/aktuell.php?

Further information, as well as how to submit a paper, may be obtained from
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/155.php


On behalf of the editorial board,
sincerely
Reinhard G. Lehmann


Editorial Office:

Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann
Academic Director
Forschungsstelle für Althebräische Sprache & Epigraphik / Research
Unit on Ancient Hebrew & Epigraphy
FB 01/ Faculty of Protestant Theology
Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz
D-55099 Mainz
Germany
KUSATU@...
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/155.php



¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann
Academic Director
Research Unit on Ancient Hebrew & Epigraphy
FB 01/ Faculty of Protestant Theology
Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz
D-55099 Mainz
Germany
lehmann@...
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de
http://www.ev.theologie.uni-mainz.de/297.php
Subsidia et Instrumenta Linguarum Orientis (SILO):
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/182.php
10th  Mainz International Colloquium on Ancient Hebrew (MICAH):
http://www.micah.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/204.php






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Since this got lost in the discussion about scribal writing the first time
around, I am reposting.

Thanks for any responses,
James
________________________________
James Spinti
Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 35 years
Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
Fax: 574-269-6788

-----Original Message-----
From: James Spinti
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 4:22 PM
To: 'ANE-2@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: FW: [CLASSICS-L] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter
days (antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)

Forwarded with permission of the author. I will forward your replies to him.

James

________________________________
James Spinti
Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 35 years
Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
Fax: 574-269-6788

-----Original Message-----
From: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group [mailto:CLASSICS-L@...]
On Behalf Of John McChesney-Young
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:14 AM
To: CLASSICS-L@...
Subject: [CLASSICS-L] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
(antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)

Research on the origin of this passage might be of interest here and
seems like the sort of inquiry that will keep the hubcaps of
Classics-l members' neighbors safe a little longer. --John


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 8:08 AM
Subject: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
(antedating              attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
To: ADS-L@...


---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L@...>
Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole@...>
Subject:      Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days (antedating
             attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reference work "Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations
(1989)" contains a passage attributed to an "Assyrian stone tablet of
about 2800 B.C.":

Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that the
world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common;
children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book
and the end of the world is evidently approaching.

A 1953 citation is provided together with a 1949 cite for part of the
quotation. The companion commentary states "Both of the above
quotations would seem to be spurious."

http://www.bartleby.com/73/456.html

Were there any cultures in 2800 B.C. with a literacy rate high enough
that a comment such as "every man wants to write a book" makes sense?

The above quote is quite popular because it furnishes strong evidence
for a story that is "too good to check" about the time invariant
preoccupations and trepidations of mankind. Here is an example in 2008
in The Sunday Times UK:

Predictions of the world's end are nothing new though. We've picked
out 30 of the most memorable apocalypses that never, for one reason or
another, quite happened.

1: 2,800BC: The oldest surviving prediction of the world's imminent
demise was found inscribed upon an Assyrian clay tablet which stated:
"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that
the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are
common." Wherever more than two people over 30 are gathered together,
expect to hear remarkably similar sentiments.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4717864.ece

Google Books archive has many instances of this quote and several are
in publications that are incorrectly dated. Misleading information
suggests dates of 1914, 1916, and 1917. But the earliest cite I have
found so far is in 1922:

Cite: 1922, Report of the State Librarian to The Governor, State of
Connecticut: Public Document No. 13, "Librarian's Report, 1920-22",
Page 93, "Report Submitted November 18, 1922 by State Librarian George
S. Godard", Published by the State of Connecticut, Hartford,
Connecticut. (Google Books full view)

    HUMAN NATURE THE SAME

A tablet (Assyrian) 2800 B.C. says:
 "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that
the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are
common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to
write a book, and the end of the world is evidently approaching."
 Tablet preserved in Constantinople.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9bQYAQAAIAAJ&q=degenerate#v=snippet&

Another instance of the quotation appears in 1923.

Cite: 1923, Nineteenth Century Evolution and After by Marshall Dawson,
Page 76, Macmillan Company, New York. (HathiTrust)

The reading of what these ancient records had to say on this point
provoked only humor, a decade ago. The expressions used are, indeed,
quaint. An Assyrian tablet, dating from 2800 B. C., preserved in
Constantinople, says:

[The target quotation is repeated here.]

http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015001674079

In 1926 the California State Board of Education uses the quote. Note,
the Google Books archive contains a document with an incorrect 1914
date. President Lyndon Baines Johnson used the passage in a speech in
1967.

I would appreciate any help in tracking this quote. Thanks.

Garson

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org



--
John McChesney-Young ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A.
JMcCYoung~at~gmail.com ** http://twitter.com/jmccyoung **
http://jmccyoung.blogspot.com/

I tried Bartlett's, and I looked in ANET, but I don't have any of the 1910-era
collections of translations of texts relating to the Bible, so I had nothing to
respond with. Googling "2800 B.C." and some keywords showed that e.g. the Laws
of Hammurabi bore that date early on, so don't confine your search to Sumerian
texts!
 --
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
Jersey City

>
>From: James Spinti <jspinti@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 3:44:21 PM
>Subject: [ANE-2] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
>(antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>
> 
>Since this got lost in the discussion about scribal writing the first time
>around, I am reposting.
>
>Thanks for any responses,
>James
>________________________________
>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L@...>
>Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole@...>
>Subject:      Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days (antedating
>             attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>The reference work "Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations
>(1989)" contains a passage attributed to an "Assyrian stone tablet of
>about 2800 B.C.":
>
>Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that the
>world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common;
>children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book
>and the end of the world is evidently approaching.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My response to James Spinti's query regarding the possibility of a high literacy
rate in Mesopotamia would be: almost certainly, no.

In "apocolyptic"-style literature, the motif of a topsy-turvy world would seem
to be a common one among various cultures. It appears, for instance, in an
Egyptian text often called "The Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage" or "The
Admonitions of Ipu-wer," and Jan Assmann cites other examples from Egypt in _The
Search for God in Ancient Egypt_ (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 2001), pp.
72-73): Prophecies of Neferti, Potter's Oracle (written in Greek), and Asclepius
(a Hermetic tractate that's survived to us in Latin).

I've never read Lucan's poem on the civil war in Rome in the late republican
period, but it's my understanding that he, too, speaks of an upheaval in social
norms, including the motif of sons killing their fathers (a violation of the
Roman ideal of "pietas").

I could write something more, but I happen to have pneumonia just now, so my
strength is running far behind my ambition. Perhaps other list members would
care to cite some other instances of the theme of the overturning of social
norms in "degenerate times."

Anyhow, though I'm not an Assyriologist, I'm willing to suggest, on the basis of
the brief context supplied in the posting, that this is yet another instance of
the motif. For my own part, I would feel disinclined to take it as a factual
report on literacy rate.

David Lorton
Baltimore, Maryland

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Spinti <jspinti@...>
>Sent: Sep 15, 2010 3:44 PM
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [ANE-2] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
(antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>
>Since this got lost in the discussion about scribal writing the first time
around, I am reposting.
>
>Thanks for any responses,
>James
>________________________________
>James Spinti
>Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
>Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 35 years
>Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
>jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
>Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
>Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
>Fax: 574-269-6788
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: James Spinti
>Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 4:22 PM
>To: 'ANE-2@yahoogroups.com'
>Subject: FW: [CLASSICS-L] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter
days (antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>
>Forwarded with permission of the author. I will forward your replies to him.
>
>James
>
>________________________________
>James Spinti
>Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
>Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 35 years
>Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
>jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
>Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
>Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
>Fax: 574-269-6788
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group
[mailto:CLASSICS-L@...] On Behalf Of John McChesney-Young
>Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:14 AM
>To: CLASSICS-L@...
>Subject: [CLASSICS-L] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
(antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>
>Research on the origin of this passage might be of interest here and
>seems like the sort of inquiry that will keep the hubcaps of
>Classics-l members' neighbors safe a little longer. --John
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole@...>
>Date: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 8:08 AM
>Subject: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
>(antedating              attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>To: ADS-L@...
>
>
>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L@...>
>Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole@...>
>Subject:      Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
(antedating
>             attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>The reference work "Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations
>(1989)" contains a passage attributed to an "Assyrian stone tablet of
>about 2800 B.C.":
>
>Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that the
>world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common;
>children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book
>and the end of the world is evidently approaching.
>
>A 1953 citation is provided together with a 1949 cite for part of the
>quotation. The companion commentary states "Both of the above
>quotations would seem to be spurious."
>
>http://www.bartleby.com/73/456.html
>
>Were there any cultures in 2800 B.C. with a literacy rate high enough
>that a comment such as "every man wants to write a book" makes sense?
>
>The above quote is quite popular because it furnishes strong evidence
>for a story that is "too good to check" about the time invariant
>preoccupations and trepidations of mankind. Here is an example in 2008
>in The Sunday Times UK:
>
>Predictions of the world's end are nothing new though. We've picked
>out 30 of the most memorable apocalypses that never, for one reason or
>another, quite happened.
>
>1: 2,800BC: The oldest surviving prediction of the world's imminent
>demise was found inscribed upon an Assyrian clay tablet which stated:
>"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that
>the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are
>common." Wherever more than two people over 30 are gathered together,
>expect to hear remarkably similar sentiments.
>
>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4717864.ece
>
>Google Books archive has many instances of this quote and several are
>in publications that are incorrectly dated. Misleading information
>suggests dates of 1914, 1916, and 1917. But the earliest cite I have
>found so far is in 1922:
>
>Cite: 1922, Report of the State Librarian to The Governor, State of
>Connecticut: Public Document No. 13, "Librarian's Report, 1920-22",
>Page 93, "Report Submitted November 18, 1922 by State Librarian George
>S. Godard", Published by the State of Connecticut, Hartford,
>Connecticut. (Google Books full view)
>
>    HUMAN NATURE THE SAME
>
>A tablet (Assyrian) 2800 B.C. says:
> "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that
>the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are
>common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to
>write a book, and the end of the world is evidently approaching."
> Tablet preserved in Constantinople.
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=9bQYAQAAIAAJ&q=degenerate#v=snippet&
>
>Another instance of the quotation appears in 1923.
>
>Cite: 1923, Nineteenth Century Evolution and After by Marshall Dawson,
>Page 76, Macmillan Company, New York. (HathiTrust)
>
>The reading of what these ancient records had to say on this point
>provoked only humor, a decade ago. The expressions used are, indeed,
>quaint. An Assyrian tablet, dating from 2800 B. C., preserved in
>Constantinople, says:
>
>[The target quotation is repeated here.]
>
>http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015001674079
>
>In 1926 the California State Board of Education uses the quote. Note,
>the Google Books archive contains a document with an incorrect 1914
>date. President Lyndon Baines Johnson used the passage in a speech in
>1967.
>
>I would appreciate any help in tracking this quote. Thanks.
>
>Garson
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
>
>--
>John McChesney-Young ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A.
>JMcCYoung~at~gmail.com ** http://twitter.com/jmccyoung **
>http://jmccyoung.blogspot.com/
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

-----Original Message-----
>From: David Lorton <davidlorton@...>
>Sent: Sep 15, 2010 6:46 PM
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
(antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>
>My response to James Spinti's query regarding the possibility of a high
literacy rate in Mesopotamia would be: almost certainly, no.
>
>In "apocolyptic"-style literature, the motif of a topsy-turvy world would seem
to be a common one among various cultures. It appears, for instance, in an
Egyptian text often called "The Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage" or "The
Admonitions of Ipu-wer," and Jan Assmann cites other examples from Egypt in _The
Search for God in Ancient Egypt_ (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 2001), pp.
72-73): Prophecies of Neferti, Potter's Oracle (written in Greek), and Asclepius
(a Hermetic tractate that's survived to us in Latin).
>
>I've never read Lucan's poem on the civil war in Rome in the late republican
period, but it's my understanding that he, too, speaks of an upheaval in social
norms, including the motif of sons killing their fathers (a violation of the
Roman ideal of "pietas").
>
>I could write something more, but I happen to have pneumonia just now, so my
strength is running far behind my ambition. Perhaps other list members would
care to cite some other instances of the theme of the overturning of social
norms in "degenerate times."
>
>Anyhow, though I'm not an Assyriologist, I'm willing to suggest, on the basis
of the brief context supplied in the posting, that this is yet another instance
of the motif. For my own part, I would feel disinclined to take it as a factual
report on literacy rate.
>
>David Lorton
>Baltimore, Maryland
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: James Spinti <jspinti@...>
>>Sent: Sep 15, 2010 3:44 PM
>>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [ANE-2] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
(antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>>
>>Since this got lost in the discussion about scribal writing the first time
around, I am reposting.
>>
>>Thanks for any responses,
>>James
>>________________________________
>>James Spinti
>>Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
>>Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 35 years
>>Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
>>jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
>>Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
>>Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
>>Fax: 574-269-6788
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: James Spinti
>>Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 4:22 PM
>>To: 'ANE-2@yahoogroups.com'
>>Subject: FW: [CLASSICS-L] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter
days (antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>>
>>Forwarded with permission of the author. I will forward your replies to him.
>>
>>James
>>
>>________________________________
>>James Spinti
>>Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
>>Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 35 years
>>Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
>>jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
>>Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
>>Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
>>Fax: 574-269-6788
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group
[mailto:CLASSICS-L@...] On Behalf Of John McChesney-Young
>>Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:14 AM
>>To: CLASSICS-L@...
>>Subject: [CLASSICS-L] Fwd: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
(antedating attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>>
>>Research on the origin of this passage might be of interest here and
>>seems like the sort of inquiry that will keep the hubcaps of
>>Classics-l members' neighbors safe a little longer. --John
>>
>>
>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>From: Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole@...>
>>Date: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 8:08 AM
>>Subject: Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
>>(antedating              attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>>To: ADS-L@...
>>
>>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L@...>
>>Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole@...>
>>Subject:      Quote: Our earth is degenerate in these latter days
(antedating
>>             attrib Assyrian tablet 1922)
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
-
>>
>>The reference work "Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations
>>(1989)" contains a passage attributed to an "Assyrian stone tablet of
>>about 2800 B.C.":
>>
>>Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that the
>>world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common;
>>children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book
>>and the end of the world is evidently approaching.
>>
>>A 1953 citation is provided together with a 1949 cite for part of the
>>quotation. The companion commentary states "Both of the above
>>quotations would seem to be spurious."
>>
>>http://www.bartleby.com/73/456.html
>>
>>Were there any cultures in 2800 B.C. with a literacy rate high enough
>>that a comment such as "every man wants to write a book" makes sense?
>>
>>The above quote is quite popular because it furnishes strong evidence
>>for a story that is "too good to check" about the time invariant
>>preoccupations and trepidations of mankind. Here is an example in 2008
>>in The Sunday Times UK:
>>
>>Predictions of the world's end are nothing new though. We've picked
>>out 30 of the most memorable apocalypses that never, for one reason or
>>another, quite happened.
>>
>>1: 2,800BC: The oldest surviving prediction of the world's imminent
>>demise was found inscribed upon an Assyrian clay tablet which stated:
>>"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that
>>the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are
>>common." Wherever more than two people over 30 are gathered together,
>>expect to hear remarkably similar sentiments.
>>
>>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4717864.ece
>>
>>Google Books archive has many instances of this quote and several are
>>in publications that are incorrectly dated. Misleading information
>>suggests dates of 1914, 1916, and 1917. But the earliest cite I have
>>found so far is in 1922:
>>
>>Cite: 1922, Report of the State Librarian to The Governor, State of
>>Connecticut: Public Document No. 13, "Librarian's Report, 1920-22",
>>Page 93, "Report Submitted November 18, 1922 by State Librarian George
>>S. Godard", Published by the State of Connecticut, Hartford,
>>Connecticut. (Google Books full view)
>>
>>    HUMAN NATURE THE SAME
>>
>>A tablet (Assyrian) 2800 B.C. says:
>> "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that
>>the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are
>>common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to
>>write a book, and the end of the world is evidently approaching."
>> Tablet preserved in Constantinople.
>>
>>http://books.google.com/books?id=9bQYAQAAIAAJ&q=degenerate#v=snippet&
>>
>>Another instance of the quotation appears in 1923.
>>
>>Cite: 1923, Nineteenth Century Evolution and After by Marshall Dawson,
>>Page 76, Macmillan Company, New York. (HathiTrust)
>>
>>The reading of what these ancient records had to say on this point
>>provoked only humor, a decade ago. The expressions used are, indeed,
>>quaint. An Assyrian tablet, dating from 2800 B. C., preserved in
>>Constantinople, says:
>>
>>[The target quotation is repeated here.]
>>
>>http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015001674079
>>
>>In 1926 the California State Board of Education uses the quote. Note,
>>the Google Books archive contains a document with an incorrect 1914
>>date. President Lyndon Baines Johnson used the passage in a speech in
>>1967.
>>
>>I would appreciate any help in tracking this quote. Thanks.
>>
>>Garson
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>John McChesney-Young ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A.
>>JMcCYoung~at~gmail.com ** http://twitter.com/jmccyoung **
>>http://jmccyoung.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I feel I should finally say something regarding my occasional posting of a blank
message.

Some time last year, a new phenomenon began occurring with regard to messages
from the ANE-2 list. Posting from a few contributors (including my own) are
always opening up with "long lines," and my Safari 1.3.2 browser isn't supplying
me with a horizontal scroll bar. The only way I can read the postings is thus to
press the "reply" button.

I do that somewhat often, since some of our most frequent contributors are among
those whose postings display with "long lines." And occasionally, in moments of
haste or fatigue, my concentration lapses and I hit the "send" button instead of
the "cancel" button.

I'm always duly embarrassed, of course, and I felt it was high time I wrote a
note of explanation and apology to the list moderators and members.

David Lorton

The mailing list "hebraisticum", an open Mailing Forum for information exchange
in the field of Classical Hebrew, i.e. Biblical Hebrew, Hebrew Epigraphy, Hebrew
Sirach and Hebrew Language of the DSS has had some problems with outdated email
addresses.
These addresses had been removed from the server.
List members who had changed their email within the last two years, as well as
those who want to join for the first time, are requested to subscribe anew.
To do so, simply send an email with "subscribe hebraisticum" (without "") in the
subject line
to
ecartis@...

Reinhard G. Lehmann
(list administrator)

¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann
Academic Director
Research Unit on Ancient Hebrew & Epigraphy
FB 01/ Faculty of Protestant Theology
Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz
D-55099 Mainz
Germany
lehmann@...
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de
http://www.ev.theologie.uni-mainz.de/297.php
Subsidia et Instrumenta Linguarum Orientis (SILO):
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/182.php
10th  Mainz International Colloquium on Ancient Hebrew (MICAH):
http://www.micah.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/204.php






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Friends ,
I just star a study on Hitite language at the University in Brazil.
Our professor indicate a several books and information on the subject but non of
them can be found in our libraries in Brasil.
Anybody now if it is possible to find any pdf copy of one of this authors on
internet?
- J. Friedrich - dictionary
- The grammar of hitite language - two volumes
Any other titles our information will be highly appreciated.
Thanks a lot
Olga Maria Dantas
Egiptologia Brasileira
www.egiptologiabrasileira.com.br



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Listers may find this forthcoming volumn to be of interest-

http://www.gorgiaspress.com/BOOKSHOP/pc-56898-10-pfoh-emanuel-david-j-chalcraft-\
anne-katrine-gudme-niels-peter-lemche-philippe-guillaume-anthropology-and-the-bi\
ble.aspx

--
+++++++
Jim West, ThD
Petros, TN

in Izmir:

"The seal is dated back to 6,200 B.C. It is evident that the seal
belonged to an administrator. This bull-shaped seal is one of the
oldest seals ever unearthed in Anatolia. "

The rest can be read here:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=seal-of-8000-years-unearthed-in--2010-0\
9-20

Antonio Lombatti

----------------------------------
http://www.antoniolombatti.it
Dottore in Storia della Chiesa
Deputazione di Storia Patria
Parma, Italia







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Antonio,

I haven't read the article yet, but my initial comment is one of amazement at
the date of 6200, which goes far back into the prehistorical period. I have my
strong doubts on the dating, and I wonder what irrefutable evidence there might
be to confirm this date. Having said that, I will get to the article, though the
burden of proof will be on the writer to convince me.

Douglas Petrovich
Toronto, Canada

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you look at the photo provided, you can see that the "seal" has a
rosette-like pattern & a stumpy handle. It's certainly NOT bull-shaped.
It also look a lot like stamps that may have been used to imprint
patterns on cloth or leather, or even on baked goods. Sometimes pictures
are more informative than words.

Trudy Kawami, NYC



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Antonio Lombatti
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 9:16 AM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ANE-2] 6,200 BC seal found in Turkey





in Izmir:

"The seal is dated back to 6,200 B.C. It is evident that the seal
belonged to an administrator. This bull-shaped seal is one of the
oldest seals ever unearthed in Anatolia. "

The rest can be read here:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=seal-of-8000-years-unearthed-in
--2010-09-20

Antonio Lombatti

----------------------------------
http://www.antoniolombatti.it
Dottore in Storia della Chiesa
Deputazione di Storia Patria
Parma, Italia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]