Just adding a few points: You are correct that gummurka is not an infinitive
construction but -ka is an accusative suffix not a dative suffix(-kum). For
other attestation of accusative suffix after gummuru like gummuranni or
gummurūšu cf., CAD G, P.29 and CAD Š/III,P.91. Stative in action-verbs gives
a passive-sense this is why -ka is translated as "with you". Heidel -following a
suggestion made by Thorkild Jackobsen – translated this passage in
active-sense: "My heart had pictured thee…"(HEIDEL,1975: 80)
 
Regards
 
Parsa Daneshmand(Tehran)

--- On Thu, 4/1/10, victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...> wrote:


From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Gilgamesh XI:5
To: "Donald R. Vance, Ph.D." <donaldrvance@...>
Cc: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 8:25 AM


George translates "I was fully intent on doing battle with you". The
subject of the sentence is libbi(-), my heart/mind. The verb gummur is a
3rd person D stative, the -ka is a dative suffix. The sentence means "my
mind was made up against/concerning you to do battle". The translations
are essentially paraphrases to make the English sound good.
Victor Hurowitz
BGU



On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. wrote:

> A reading of libbi: (libbī), it seems to me, would produce something 
> like "your dedicating my heart to make war." I can't figure out how 
> CAD gets "my heart is totally given to make the fight with you" out of 
> that. The suffix is on gummur, not epe:sh (epēš). Nor is there a 
> prepositional phrase "with you." What am I failing to see?
>
>
>
>
> Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
> Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
> Oral Roberts University
> dvance@...
> donaldrvance@...
>
>
> On Mar 31, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Parsa D wrote:
>
> > Reading of ana epēš tuqunti/ana epe:sh tuqunti  is correct that is 
> > a typical form of status consrtuctus(yes you can read pesh instead 
> > of pish). But it seems that you should transcript libbi as libbī/
> > libbi:(=my heart) that gives you a meaning like :"my heart is 
> > totally given to make the fight with you, or "my heart is wholly 
> > given to fight with you" as is attested in CAD T, P.482.
> >
> > Parsa Daneshmand(Tehran)
> >
> > --- On Wed, 3/31/10, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. <donaldrvance@...> 
> > wrote:
> >
> > From: Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. <donaldrvance@...>
> > Subject: [ANE-2] Gilgamesh XI:5
> > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 6:25 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm trying to make sense out of Gilgamesh Tablet XI, line 5:
> > UNICODE
> > gummurka libbi ana epēš tuqunti
> > ASCI
> > gummurka libbi ana epe:sh tuqunti
> >
> > The CAD renders this as
> > "your heart is wholly given to fighting"
> > The Context of Scripture as
> > "I imagined you ready for battle"
> >
> > Is gummurka a D infinitive with 2, m, s, gen. suffix, rendering the
> > line "your dedicating the heart to the making of war"?
> >
> > Thompson has epe:sh (epēš) as e-pish (e-piš) which I initially
> > understood to be e:pish (ēpiš), the construct of e:pishu (ēpišu)
> > "maker, actor, doer". The CAD's rendering (s.v. gama:ru [gamāru] 3.h)
> > seems to be reading it as the construct of the G infinitive. I assume
> > that the sign read pish (piš) can also be read pesh (peš). Am I
> > understanding the CAD correctly here?
> >
> > I'd appreciate any comments or corrections.
> >
> > Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
> > Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
> > Oral Roberts University
> > dvance@...
> > donaldrvance@ mac.com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Newly discovered site with new pre-dynastic king.
�
In a recent, unpublished salvage project, archaeologist Harrison Lincoln has
unearthed evidence of a small, previously unknown site in the southern Levant.
It appears to be a small campsite used by Egyptians more than 5000 years ago.
For those interested it is located at 31049'12.59"N� -�� 34007'01.83" (Check it
out on Google Earth) Known as Teleilat (small tells) el Bahri. This 0.3 hectare
site has only begun to be excavated, but it has already yielded evidence of
several generations of encampments, apparently tents of a temporary nature
erected on the same site over several generations. It has also yielded a small
repertoire of Egyptian pottery. Included in the finds is a serekh (i.e., an
early royal Egyptian symbol of a monumental building, a tomb, palace or temple)
in which the name of the ruler is written in a special (name) compartment.
�
The name of this king, who lived sometime early in Dynasty 0 is one previously
unknown. It is written with the hieroglyph of two raised hands, appearing doubly
and should be read as Ka-wy or Ka Ka. This king Ka Ka is otherwise undocumented,
although some archaeologist working in Egypt may soon turn up his tomb as the
news is full of that type of happening virtually daily. King Ka Ka was
presumably one of the early rulers prior to the unification of Egypt. The double
name is a somewhat unusual form, but another king with a dual name is known for
this early period. His name was written with a double falcon above a serekh and
he is known as "Double Falcon".

Eliot Braun, Ph D
Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Fran�ais de J�rusalem
PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With apologies for the cross-posting, but the printers at Winged Bull
Press have been working overtime!

Spring is finally here, and the many avid gardeners among us are turning
over a new leaf - quite literally, in the case of our compost piles.
With that in mind, we bring you four new products from partner Winged
Bull Press on the themes of "green" and "compost." Happy digging!

Download Our New Baroque Cuneiform Fonts FREE!
Perfect for wedding invitations and other occasions that require both
flair and cuneiform. Full Unicode compatibility. Includes roman, italic,
bold, bold italic, and small caps.

Find this, the "Deal of the Decade," and all the latest Winged Bull
Press titles here:
http://www.eisenbrauns.com/pages/04012010

Enjoy the special deals,
James
________________________________
James Spinti
Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
Fax: 574-269-6788

I'm intrigued by the mention of Roman and (more generally) Italic cuneiform on
that page. Is this a form of Ugaritic that might have been brought to the West,
and hence been the inspiration for the Greek alphabet? or hiterto unknown
evidence for Mesopotamian seafarers in the Western Sea -- perhaps Luvians,
Assyrians -- or, even earlier, Mariotes -- seeking a westward route to Dilmun
that avoided the hostile territories farther east?�--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


>
>From: James Spinti <jspinti@...>
>To: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <CLASSICS-L@...>;
biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com; biblicalist@yahoogroups.com;
crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 12:17:43 PM
>Subject: [ANE-2] Special April 1st edition of BookNews
>
>�
>With apologies for the cross-posting, but the printers at Winged Bull
>Press have been working overtime!
>
>Spring is finally here, and the many avid gardeners among us are turning
>over a new leaf - quite literally, in the case of our compost piles.
>With that in mind, we bring you four new products from partner Winged
>Bull Press on the themes of "green" and "compost." Happy digging!
>
>Download Our New Baroque Cuneiform Fonts FREE!
>Perfect for wedding invitations and other occasions that require both
>flair and cuneiform. Full Unicode compatibility. Includes roman, italic,
>bold, bold italic, and small caps.
>
>Find this, the "Deal of the Decade," and all the latest Winged Bull
>Press titles here:
>http://www.eisenbrauns.com/pages/04012010
>
>Enjoy the special deals,
>James

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sam Paley died yesterday in New York.  With permission I rely the following:
[Chuck Jones NY]

>>>>forwarded message<<<<<

Dear Family and Friends,

Sam passed from this world peacefully this afternoon.  He has been surrounded by
all who loved him -
his family, friends and colleagues.  He has been present with us during these
last few days as we
all said goodbye.  It has been a very special time.

I hope you will be able to attend his funeral service at the Central Synagogue
at East 55th St. and
Lexington Avenue, New York City, on Friday, April 2 at 9:30 a.m.  Burial will be
at the Lindwood
Cemetery, 497 North St. Randolph, MA.

There will be a bus to take all who would like to attend the burial and the
reception afterwards at
the Harvard Club, 374 Commonwealth Avenue in Back Bay, Boston. The reception
will begin at 5:30 p.m.
  Please let Ranne Warner know if you would like to join us on the bus.  The bus
will depart from the
Central Synagogue directly after the service and return to the Synagogue Friday
evening.

In lieu of flowers, we are asking people to make contributions in honor of
Samuel M. Paley to
Memorial Sloan-Kettering to support the ongoing brain cancer research of Ingo
Mellinghoff, MD.
Checks should be made payable to Memorial Sloan Kettering, with a notation for
Samuel M. Paley/Ingo
Mellinghoff and mailed to Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, Attn: 
Development Office, 1275
York Avenue, New York, NY 10065.

The family will sit Shiva beginning Tuesday, April 6th at 425 East 58th Street,
Apt. 5E through
Thursday, April 8th. During Passover, the family will be at home and will
receive guests.

If you have any questions, please contact Ranne Warner at 617-680-2888 or
rpwarner@....

Thanks to Victor and Parsa for their comments. They were very helpful.
The normalization of the line as

gummurka libbi ana epēš tuqunti
[gummurka libbi ana epe:$ tuqunti]

is found in CAD (s.v. gamāru 3.h), where CAD renders it as "Your heart
is wholly given to fighting." It seems to me that CAD here is reading
gummur as a D infinitive followed by the genitive of libbu (note the
lack of macron over the final i) "Your dedicating of the heart to the
making of war" = "your heart is wholly given to fighting"

CAD, however, also normalizes the line as

gummurka libbī ana epēš tuqunti
[gummurka libbi: ana epe:$ tuqunti]

s.v. tuqumtu b.1'. This fits Victor's treatment of gummur as a D
stative 3, m, s, with dative sx. -ka, the subject of which is libbī
with 1, c, s, gen. sx. "my heart." (GAG §42j lists -ka as a dative
ending in later forms of the language.) CAD here renders this as "My
heart is wholly given to fight with you."

The later translations (the CAD T volume is copyrighted 2006 and the G
volume is 1956) including the Context of Scripture seem to go with
this second understanding which was found already in Heidel (1949):
"My heart had pictured thee as one as one perfect for the doing of
battle."

Again thanks to Victor and Parsa. It is fun to get back into Akkadian!

Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
Oral Roberts University
dvance@...
donaldrvance@...


On Apr 1, 2010, at 2:07 AM, Parsa D wrote:

>
>
> Just adding a few points: You are correct that gummurka is not an
> infinitive construction but -ka is an accusative suffix not a dative
> suffix(-kum). For other attestation of accusative suffix after
> gummuru like gummuranni or gummurūšu cf., CAD G, P.29 and CAD Š/
> III,P.91. Stative in action-verbs gives a passive-sense this is why -
> ka is translated as "with you". Heidel -following a suggestion made
> by Thorkild Jackobsen – translated this passage in active-sense:
> "My heart had pictured thee…"(HEIDEL,1975: 80)
>
> Regards
>
> Parsa Daneshmand(Tehran)
>
> --- On Thu, 4/1/10, victor avigdor hurowitz
> <victor@...> wrote:
>
> From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Gilgamesh XI:5
> To: "Donald R. Vance, Ph.D." <donaldrvance@...>
> Cc: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 8:25 AM
>
> George translates "I was fully intent on doing battle with you". The
> subject of the sentence is libbi(-), my heart/mind. The verb gummur
> is a
> 3rd person D stative, the -ka is a dative suffix. The sentence means
> "my
> mind was made up against/concerning you to do battle". The
> translations
> are essentially paraphrases to make the English sound good.
> Victor Hurowitz
> BGU
>
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. wrote:
>
> > A reading of libbi: (libbī), it seems to me, would produce
> something
> > like "your dedicating my heart to make war." I can't figure out how
> > CAD gets "my heart is totally given to make the fight with you"
> out of
> > that. The suffix is on gummur, not epe:sh (epēš). Nor is there a
> > prepositional phrase "with you." What am I failing to see?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
> > Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
> > Oral Roberts University
> > dvance@...
> > donaldrvance@...
> >
> >
> > On Mar 31, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Parsa D wrote:
> >
> > > Reading of ana epēš tuqunti/ana epe:sh tuqunti  is correct that
> is
> > > a typical form of status consrtuctus(yes you can read pesh instead
> > > of pish). But it seems that you should transcript libbi as libbī/
> > > libbi:(=my heart) that gives you a meaning like :"my heart is
> > > totally given to make the fight with you, or "my heart is wholly
> > > given to fight with you" as is attested in CAD T, P.482.
> > >
> > > Parsa Daneshmand(Tehran)
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 3/31/10, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. <donaldrvance@...>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. <donaldrvance@...>
> > > Subject: [ANE-2] Gilgamesh XI:5
> > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 6:25 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm trying to make sense out of Gilgamesh Tablet XI, line 5:
> > > UNICODE
> > > gummurka libbi ana epēš tuqunti
> > > ASCI
> > > gummurka libbi ana epe:sh tuqunti
> > >
> > > The CAD renders this as
> > > "your heart is wholly given to fighting"
> > > The Context of Scripture as
> > > "I imagined you ready for battle"
> > >
> > > Is gummurka a D infinitive with 2, m, s, gen. suffix, rendering
> the
> > > line "your dedicating the heart to the making of war"?
> > >
> > > Thompson has epe:sh (epēš) as e-pish (e-piš) which I initially
> > > understood to be e:pish (ēpiš), the construct of e:pishu
> (ēpišu)
> > > "maker, actor, doer". The CAD's rendering (s.v. gama:ru [gamāru]
> 3.h)
> > > seems to be reading it as the construct of the G infinitive. I
> assume
> > > that the sign read pish (piš) can also be read pesh (peš). Am I
> > > understanding the CAD correctly here?
> > >
> > > I'd appreciate any comments or corrections.
> > >
> > > Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
> > > Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
> > > Oral Roberts University
> > > dvance@...
> > > donaldrvance@ mac.com
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

I stand corrected. Sorry.
Victor Hurowitz
BGU



On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Parsa D wrote:

>
>
> Just adding a few points: You are correct that gummurka is not an infinitive
construction but -ka is an accusative suffix not a dative suffix(-kum). For
other attestation of accusative suffix after gummuru like gummuranni or
gummurūšu cf., CAD G, P.29 and CAD Š/III,P.91. Stative in action-verbs gives
a passive-sense this is why -ka is translated as "with you". Heidel -following a
suggestion made by Thorkild Jackobsen – translated this passage in
active-sense: "My heart had pictured thee…"(HEIDEL,1975: 80)
>  
> Regards
>  
> Parsa Daneshmand(Tehran)
>
> --- On Thu, 4/1/10, victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Gilgamesh XI:5
> To: "Donald R. Vance, Ph.D." <donaldrvance@...>
> Cc: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 8:25 AM
>
>
> George translates "I was fully intent on doing battle with you". The
> subject of the sentence is libbi(-), my heart/mind. The verb gummur is a
> 3rd person D stative, the -ka is a dative suffix. The sentence means "my
> mind was made up against/concerning you to do battle". The translations
> are essentially paraphrases to make the English sound good.
> Victor Hurowitz
> BGU
>
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. wrote:
>
> > A reading of libbi: (libbī), it seems to me, would produce something 
> > like "your dedicating my heart to make war." I can't figure out how 
> > CAD gets "my heart is totally given to make the fight with you" out of 
> > that. The suffix is on gummur, not epe:sh (epēš). Nor is there a 
> > prepositional phrase "with you." What am I failing to see?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
> > Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
> > Oral Roberts University
> > dvance@...
> > donaldrvance@...
> >
> >
> > On Mar 31, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Parsa D wrote:
> >
> > > Reading of ana epēš tuqunti/ana epe:sh tuqunti  is correct that is 
> > > a typical form of status consrtuctus(yes you can read pesh instead 
> > > of pish). But it seems that you should transcript libbi as libbī/
> > > libbi:(=my heart) that gives you a meaning like :"my heart is 
> > > totally given to make the fight with you, or "my heart is wholly 
> > > given to fight with you" as is attested in CAD T, P.482.
> > >
> > > Parsa Daneshmand(Tehran)
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 3/31/10, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. <donaldrvance@...> 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. <donaldrvance@...>
> > > Subject: [ANE-2] Gilgamesh XI:5
> > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 6:25 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm trying to make sense out of Gilgamesh Tablet XI, line 5:
> > > UNICODE
> > > gummurka libbi ana epēš tuqunti
> > > ASCI
> > > gummurka libbi ana epe:sh tuqunti
> > >
> > > The CAD renders this as
> > > "your heart is wholly given to fighting"
> > > The Context of Scripture as
> > > "I imagined you ready for battle"
> > >
> > > Is gummurka a D infinitive with 2, m, s, gen. suffix, rendering the
> > > line "your dedicating the heart to the making of war"?
> > >
> > > Thompson has epe:sh (epēš) as e-pish (e-piš) which I initially
> > > understood to be e:pish (ēpiš), the construct of e:pishu (ēpišu)
> > > "maker, actor, doer". The CAD's rendering (s.v. gama:ru [gamāru] 3.h)
> > > seems to be reading it as the construct of the G infinitive. I assume
> > > that the sign read pish (piš) can also be read pesh (peš). Am I
> > > understanding the CAD correctly here?
> > >
> > > I'd appreciate any comments or corrections.
> > >
> > > Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
> > > Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
> > > Oral Roberts University
> > > dvance@...
> > > donaldrvance@ mac.com
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

On 4/1/2010 11:39 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> I'm intrigued by the mention of Roman and (more generally) Italic cuneiform on
that page. Is this a form of Ugaritic that might have been brought to the West,
and hence been the inspiration for the Greek alphabet? or hiterto unknown
evidence for Mesopotamian seafarers in the Western Sea -- perhaps Luvians,
Assyrians -- or, even earlier, Mariotes -- seeking a westward route to Dilmun
that avoided the hostile territories farther east? --
>

Um  ... what day is it?

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. wrote:

> gummurka libbi ana ep?? tuqunti
> [gummurka libbi ana epe:$ tuqunti]
>
> is found in CAD (s.v. gam?ru 3.h), where CAD renders it as "Your heart
> is wholly given to fighting." It seems to me that CAD here is reading
> gummur as a D infinitive followed by the genitive of libbu (note the
> lack of macron over the final i) "Your dedicating of the heart to the
> making of war" = "your heart is wholly given to fighting"
<snip>

This is not a valid parsing because in Akkadian (and Semitic languages in
general) nothing can intervene between a construct and its genitive (and
that includes pronominal suffixes, which themselves normally stand in a
construct-genitive relationship with the noun to which they are attached);
therefore, libbi cannot stand in a genitival relationship to a putative D
infinitive construct gummur.  Hence gummur must be interpreted as a
stative and libbi must be interpreted as nominative plus first person
suffix, libbi:.

Bob Whiting
whiting@...

Peter,

I think that these "Mesopotamian seafarers" might better be termed
Antide-luvians. :-)

Trudy Kawami



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Peter T. Daniels
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:40 PM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Special April 1st edition of BookNews





I'm intrigued by the mention of Roman and (more generally) Italic
cuneiform on that page. Is this a form of Ugaritic that might have been
brought to the West, and hence been the inspiration for the Greek
alphabet? or hiterto unknown evidence for Mesopotamian seafarers in the
Western Sea -- perhaps Luvians, Assyrians -- or, even earlier, Mariotes
-- seeking a westward route to Dilmun that avoided the hostile
territories farther east? --
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's how I parsed it for him although I misparsed the -ka as dative
rather than accusative. His problem is that the stative 3ms is identical
to the infinitive construct and he's confusing them.
Victor Hurowitz
BGU



On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Robert M Whiting wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. wrote:
>
> > gummurka libbi ana ep?? tuqunti
> > [gummurka libbi ana epe:$ tuqunti]
> >
> > is found in CAD (s.v. gam?ru 3.h), where CAD renders it as "Your heart
> > is wholly given to fighting." It seems to me that CAD here is reading
> > gummur as a D infinitive followed by the genitive of libbu (note the
> > lack of macron over the final i) "Your dedicating of the heart to the
> > making of war" = "your heart is wholly given to fighting"
> <snip>
>
> This is not a valid parsing because in Akkadian (and Semitic languages in
> general) nothing can intervene between a construct and its genitive (and
> that includes pronominal suffixes, which themselves normally stand in a
> construct-genitive relationship with the noun to which they are attached);
> therefore, libbi cannot stand in a genitival relationship to a putative D
> infinitive construct gummur.  Hence gummur must be interpreted as a
> stative and libbi must be interpreted as nominative plus first person
> suffix, libbi:.
>
> Bob Whiting
> whiting@...
>

I realize that, Victor.  I'm just trying to clarify that the two parsings
are not equally valid or rather that the first one is actually impossible.
Rather than adopting the "he-said/she-said" style of contemporary
journalism, it's important to point out which one is false instead of just
reporting them as equally valid alternatives.

Bob Whiting
whiting@...

On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:

> That's how I parsed it for him although I misparsed the -ka as dative
> rather than accusative. His problem is that the stative 3ms is identical
> to the infinitive construct and he's confusing them.
> Victor Hurowitz
> BGU
>
>
>
> On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Robert M Whiting wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. wrote:
> >
> > > gummurka libbi ana ep?? tuqunti
> > > [gummurka libbi ana epe:$ tuqunti]
> > >
> > > is found in CAD (s.v. gam?ru 3.h), where CAD renders it as "Your heart
> > > is wholly given to fighting." It seems to me that CAD here is reading
> > > gummur as a D infinitive followed by the genitive of libbu (note the
> > > lack of macron over the final i) "Your dedicating of the heart to the
> > > making of war" = "your heart is wholly given to fighting"
> > <snip>
> >
> > This is not a valid parsing because in Akkadian (and Semitic languages in
> > general) nothing can intervene between a construct and its genitive (and
> > that includes pronominal suffixes, which themselves normally stand in a
> > construct-genitive relationship with the noun to which they are attached);
> > therefore, libbi cannot stand in a genitival relationship to a putative D
> > infinitive construct gummur.  Hence gummur must be interpreted as a
> > stative and libbi must be interpreted as nominative plus first person
> > suffix, libbi:.
> >
> > Bob Whiting
> > whiting@...
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I knew that to be the case for constructs in Hebrew; I was not so sure
for Akkadian. I also recognized that the D inf and the D stative 3 m s
are identical. I was trying to make sense of the apparent genitive
form libbi in the earlier CAD normalization. Is the lack of the macron
in this normalization a typo?

Sent from my iPhone

Donald R. Vance
donaldrvance@...

On Apr 1, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Robert M Whiting <whiting@...>
wrote:

> I realize that, Victor. I'm just trying to clarify that the two
> parsings
> are not equally valid or rather that the first one is actually
> impossible.
> Rather than adopting the "he-said/she-said" style of contemporary
> journalism, it's important to point out which one is false instead
> of just
> reporting them as equally valid alternatives.
>
> Bob Whiting
> whiting@...
>
> On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:
>
> > That's how I parsed it for him although I misparsed the -ka as
> dative
> > rather than accusative. His problem is that the stative 3ms is
> identical
> > to the infinitive construct and he's confusing them.
> > Victor Hurowitz
> > BGU
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Robert M Whiting wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. wrote:
> > >
> > > > gummurka libbi ana ep?? tuqunti
> > > > [gummurka libbi ana epe:$ tuqunti]
> > > >
> > > > is found in CAD (s.v. gam?ru 3.h), where CAD renders it as
> "Your heart
> > > > is wholly given to fighting." It seems to me that CAD here is
> reading
> > > > gummur as a D infinitive followed by the genitive of libbu
> (note the
> > > > lack of macron over the final i) "Your dedicating of the heart
> to the
> > > > making of war" = "your heart is wholly given to fighting"
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > This is not a valid parsing because in Akkadian (and Semitic
> languages in
> > > general) nothing can intervene between a construct and its
> genitive (and
> > > that includes pronominal suffixes, which themselves normally
> stand in a
> > > construct-genitive relationship with the noun to which they are
> attached);
> > > therefore, libbi cannot stand in a genitival relationship to a
> putative D
> > > infinitive construct gummur. Hence gummur must be interpreted as a
> > > stative and libbi must be interpreted as nominative plus first
> person
> > > suffix, libbi:.
> > >
> > > Bob Whiting
> > > whiting@...
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So the question becomes how Oppenheim and Landsberger were able to translate the
passage as they did. Is there some parsing under which the 1956 translation is
valid?
�--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


>
>From: Robert M Whiting <whiting@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 2:09:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Gilgamesh XI:5
>
>�
>I realize that, Victor. I'm just trying to clarify that the two parsings
>are not equally valid or rather that the first one is actually impossible.
>Rather than adopting the "he-said/she- said" style of contemporary
>journalism, it's important to point out which one is false instead of just
>reporting them as equally valid alternatives.
>
>Bob Whiting
>whiting@... .fi
>
>On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:
>
>> That's how I parsed it for him although I misparsed the -ka as dative
>> rather than accusative. His problem is that the stative 3ms is identical
>> to the infinitive construct and he's confusing them.
>> Victor Hurowitz
>> BGU
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Robert M Whiting wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. wrote:
>> >
>> > > gummurka libbi ana ep?? tuqunti
>> > > [gummurka libbi ana epe:$ tuqunti]
>> > >
>> > > is found in CAD (s.v. gam?ru 3.h), where CAD renders it as "Your heart
>> > > is wholly given to fighting." It seems to me that CAD here is reading
>> > > gummur as a D infinitive followed by the genitive of libbu (note the
>> > > lack of macron over the final i) "Your dedicating of the heart to the
>> > > making of war" = "your heart is wholly given to fighting"
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > This is not a valid parsing because in Akkadian (and Semitic languages in
>> > general) nothing can intervene between a construct and its genitive (and
>> > that includes pronominal suffixes, which themselves normally stand in a
>> > construct-genitive relationship with the noun to which they are attached);
>> > therefore, libbi cannot stand in a genitival relationship to a putative D
>> > infinitive construct gummur. Hence gummur must be interpreted as a
>> > stative and libbi must be interpreted as nominative plus first person
>> > suffix, libbi:.
>> >
>> > Bob Whiting
>> > whiting@... .fi

Peter,

Note the date.  This is an Eisenbraun's tradition.
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




________________________________
From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 9:39:38 AM
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Special April 1st edition of BookNews

 
I'm intrigued by the mention of Roman and (more generally) Italic cuneiform on
that page. Is this a form of Ugaritic that might have been brought to the West,
and hence been the inspiration for the Greek alphabet? or hiterto unknown
evidence for Mesopotamian seafarers in the Western Sea -- perhaps Luvians,
Assyrians -- or, even earlier, Mariotes -- seeking a westward route to Dilmun
that avoided the hostile territories farther east? --
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. net

>
>From: James Spinti <jspinti@eisenbrauns .com>
>To: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <CLASSICS-L@LSV. UKY.EDU>;
biblical-studies@ yahoogroups. com; biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com;
crosstalk2@yahoogro ups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 12:17:43 PM
>Subject: [ANE-2] Special April 1st edition of BookNews
>
> 
>With apologies for the cross-posting, but the printers at Winged Bull
>Press have been working overtime!
>
>Spring is finally here, and the many avid gardeners among us are turning
>over a new leaf - quite literally, in the case of our compost piles.
>With that in mind, we bring you four new products from partner Winged
>Bull Press on the themes of "green" and "compost." Happy digging!
>
>Download Our New Baroque Cuneiform Fonts FREE!
>Perfect for wedding invitations and other occasions that require both
>flair and cuneiform. Full Unicode compatibility. Includes roman, italic,
>bold, bold italic, and small caps.
>
>Find this, the "Deal of the Decade," and all the latest Winged Bull
>Press titles here:
>http://www.eisenbrauns.com/pages/04012010
>
>Enjoy the special deals,
>James

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

George,

I think Peter's question (or observation) was in much the same vein as the
original posting.  I'm surprised how many people fell for it.

Bob Whiting
whiting@...

On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, George F Somsel wrote:

> Peter,
>
> Note the date.  This is an Eisenbraun's tradition.
>  george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> ? search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 9:39:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Special April 1st edition of BookNews
>
>
> I'm intrigued by the mention of Roman and (more generally) Italic cuneiform on
that page. Is this a form of Ugaritic that might have been brought to the West,
and hence been the inspiration for the Greek alphabet? or hiterto unknown
evidence for Mesopotamian seafarers in the Western Sea -- perhaps Luvians,
Assyrians -- or, even earlier, Mariotes -- seeking a westward route to Dilmun
that avoided the hostile territories farther east? --
> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. net
>
> >
> >From: James Spinti <jspinti@eisenbrauns .com>
> >To: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <CLASSICS-L@LSV. UKY.EDU>;
biblical-studies@ yahoogroups. com; biblicalist@ yahoogroups. com;
crosstalk2@yahoogro ups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
> >Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 12:17:43 PM
> >Subject: [ANE-2] Special April 1st edition of BookNews
> >
> >
> >With apologies for the cross-posting, but the printers at Winged Bull
> >Press have been working overtime!
> >
> >Spring is finally here, and the many avid gardeners among us are turning
> >over a new leaf - quite literally, in the case of our compost piles.
> >With that in mind, we bring you four new products from partner Winged
> >Bull Press on the themes of "green" and "compost." Happy digging!
> >
> >Download Our New Baroque Cuneiform Fonts FREE!
> >Perfect for wedding invitations and other occasions that require both
> >flair and cuneiform. Full Unicode compatibility. Includes roman, italic,
> >bold, bold italic, and small caps.
> >
> >Find this, the "Deal of the Decade," and all the latest Winged Bull
> >Press titles here:
> >http://www.eisenbrauns.com/pages/04012010
> >
> >Enjoy the special deals,
> >James
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi Eliot,

This is an interesting discovery. I have studied this particular era for over 40
years and have come to the following conclusions.

The double falcon may not have been a separate king, since the two falcons are
always above an empty serekh. It is more likely a kind of family emblem. There
are only three predynastic kings who were buried in a nearly identical type
double or twin tomb: Ro, Ka and Narmer. These three are the successors of king
Scorpion II. At this time the Egyptian colonies in southern Palestine were
flourishing again, and the earliest king attested in these colonies is king Ka,
at the place called Lod. To my mind Ro, Ka and Narmer are the double falcon
kings themselves. The Lybian Palet, usually regarded as showing a set of seven
'fortresses', is dated to the time of Narmer, but actually seems to show a line
of seven rulers, each portrayed as building some monument or estate. Above the
seventh 'fortress' we are again confronted with two falcons, although each atop
a separate empty serekh, which I take as the two kings Ro and Ka, perhaps
brothers. Above the sixth is a
  scorpion, which I take as king Scorpion. Above the fifth is a lion. Above the
first four there was apparently only a falcon each. Each animal holds a symbol
of 'building', so these animals were most certainly kings. Based on several
other artifacts, I have come to the conclusion that the predecessor of king
Scorpion II may indeed have been a king 'Lion',  probably called Thamr[t].
Additionally I read the square blocks in the 'fortresses' as primitive forms of
the hieroglyph for 'ten' [years]. The last three 'fortresses' contain each three
blocks, and thus suggests to me 30 years each (perhaps celebrating a
Sed-festival?). The fourth contains four blocks, the third probably zero blocks,
the second seven blocks and the first eight blocks. Therefore, I propose that
the Lybian Palet can be read as a primative 'kinglist' encompassing a
predynastic period of 280 years prior to Narmer. If Narmer himself also reigned
circa 30 years, this would be a unique
  artefact suggesting information regarding a period of circa 310 years prior
to the First Dynasty. I have also tentatively associated the Owl, read as
'Em', in the first 'fortress', with the mysterious predynastic king Emkha
mentioned on the Palermo Stone. So perhaps these hieroglyphs in the fortresses
were second names of the building Horus-kings.

In any case, I have the following probable order of six predynastic kings:

Ta (Hat-hor?)
Lion (Thamr or Thamrt?)
Scorpion II (Serkh or Serkh-an)
Ro or Iry-hor (first of the family of the double falcon)
Ka or Ka Ap (second of the family of the double falcon), first king attested in
the Levant
Nar or Narmer (third of the family of the double falcon), second king attested
in the Levant

So my personal view is that Ka-wy or Ka Ka is most likely just a variant form of
Ka, the first attested Egyptian king in the Egyptian colonies in Southern
Palestine. Variant forms of the name of Narmer have also been found, so this is
not unique. Perhaps the double falcon simply meant 'double kingdom', perhaps
alluding to the conquest of not only Upper and Lower Egypt, but of the combined
area of Egypt and Southern Palestine, and this may have been reflected in the
doubling of the name of Ka himself.

Another possibility is that Ka-wy or Kaui was simply the second name of king
Lion. Inside the 'fortress' of the Lion on the Lybian Palet is a hieroglyph read
as Kau, since it is formed by the two upward held hands (forming Ka) which seem
to be bound by a rope or bar. It may in fact be meant as a double Ka, thus
reading more precisely as Kaui or Ka Ka. The problem is that we lack the
attestation of this name in Egypt itself, so this must remain speculative.
However, if true, then king Lion (Thamr?) or Kaui? was perhaps the real first
conquerer of both Egypt and the Levant, a century prior to the First Dynasty.

Regards,
Ian Onvlee




________________________________
From: eliot braun <eliotbraun@...>
To: ANE <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 9:36:21 AM
Subject: [ANE-2] Another pre-dynastic Egyptian king discovered

 
Newly discovered site with new pre-dynastic king.
 
In a recent, unpublished salvage project, archaeologist Harrison Lincoln has
unearthed evidence of a small, previously unknown site in the southern Levant.
It appears to be a small campsite used by Egyptians more than 5000 years ago.
For those interested it is located at 31049'12.59" N  -   34007'01.83" (Check
it out on Google Earth) Known as Teleilat (small tells) el Bahri. This 0.3
hectare site has only begun to be excavated, but it has already yielded evidence
of several generations of encampments, apparently tents of a temporary nature
erected on the same site over several generations. It has also yielded a small
repertoire of Egyptian pottery. Included in the finds is a serekh (i.e., an
early royal Egyptian symbol of a monumental building, a tomb, palace or temple)
in which the name of the ruler is written in a special (name) compartment.
 
The name of this king, who lived sometime early in Dynasty 0 is one previously
unknown. It is written with the hieroglyph of two raised hands, appearing doubly
and should be read as Ka-wy or Ka Ka. This king Ka Ka is otherwise undocumented,
although some archaeologist working in Egypt may soon turn up his tomb as the
news is full of that type of happening virtually daily. King Ka Ka was
presumably one of the early rulers prior to the unification of Egypt. The double
name is a somewhat unusual form, but another king with a dual name is known for
this early period. His name was written with a double falcon above a serekh and
he is known as "Double Falcon".

Eliot Braun, Ph D
Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

Hello -

Please see the new photo that Bob Whiting has
posted for me on the yahoo group page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/photos/album/1811190582/pic/list

I took this picture at a dig site in Israel in 1992.
However, I cannot remember the location or name
of the archaeological site. I have been trying to identify.

Does anyone know where this is from?
Does anyone have information about this object?

I seem to recall that it is from a synagogue site
and thought it was from Susya. However I can't
remember the details, as I visited several sites.

The archaeologist who gave tour of the site said
that it was an anomaly and was uncertain of it's
origins or symbolic significance.

Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jeffrey Trapold, Architect

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's not a mandala, nor from a synagogue, nor actually in Israel by some
lights. It is a window grill from the Umayyad palace of Hisham ibn Abd
al-Malik (724-743) or Caliph al-Walid II (743-744) now called Khirbet
al-Mafjar near Jericho in the West Bank.

See

http://www.gardenvisit.com/assets/madge/khirbat_al-mafjar_2019_jpg/600x/
khirbat_al-mafjar_2019_jpg_600x.jpg



Trudy Kawami



________________________________

From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
jefftrapold@...
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 4:15 PM
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ANE-2] stone mandala somewhere in israel...





Hello -

Please see the new photo that Bob Whiting has
posted for me on the yahoo group page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/photos/album/1811190582/pic/list
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/photos/album/1811190582/pic/list>

I took this picture at a dig site in Israel in 1992.
However, I cannot remember the location or name
of the archaeological site. I have been trying to identify.

Does anyone know where this is from?
Does anyone have information about this object?

I seem to recall that it is from a synagogue site
and thought it was from Susya. However I can't
remember the details, as I visited several sites.

The archaeologist who gave tour of the site said
that it was an anomaly and was uncertain of it's
origins or symbolic significance.

Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jeffrey Trapold, Architect

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for the information.

Cheers,

Jeffrey Trapold

   It is a window grill from the Umayyad palace of Hisham ibn Abd
   al-Malik (724-743) or Caliph al-Walid II (743-744) now called Khirbet
   al-Mafjar near Jericho in the West Bank.

   See

  
http://www.gardenvisit.com/assets/madge/khirbat_al-mafjar_2019_jpg/600x/khirbat_\
al-mafjar_2019_jpg_600x.jpg

   Trudy Kawami

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...>
>Sent: Apr 2, 2010 7:55 AM
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Another pre-dynastic Egyptian king discovered
>
>Hi Eliot,
>
>This is an interesting discovery. I have studied this particular era for over
40 years and have come to the following conclusions.
>
>The double falcon may not have been a separate king, since the two falcons are
always above an empty serekh. It is more likely a kind of family emblem. There
are only three predynastic kings who were buried in a nearly identical type
double or twin tomb: Ro, Ka and Narmer. These three are the successors of king
Scorpion II. At this time the Egyptian colonies in southern Palestine were
flourishing again, and the earliest king attested in these colonies is king Ka,
at the place called Lod. To my mind Ro, Ka and Narmer are the double falcon
kings themselves. The Lybian Palet, usually regarded as showing a set of seven
'fortresses', is dated to the time of Narmer, but actually seems to show a line
of seven rulers, each portrayed as building some monument or estate. Above the
seventh 'fortress' we are again confronted with two falcons, although each atop
a separate empty serekh, which I take as the two kings Ro and Ka, perhaps
brothers. Above the sixth is a
> scorpion, which I take as king Scorpion. Above the fifth is a lion. Above the
first four there was apparently only a falcon each. Each animal holds a symbol
of 'building', so these animals were most certainly kings. Based on several
other artifacts, I have come to the conclusion that the predecessor of king
Scorpion II may indeed have been a king 'Lion',  probably called Thamr[t].
Additionally I read the square blocks in the 'fortresses' as primitive forms of
the hieroglyph for 'ten' [years]. The last three 'fortresses' contain each three
blocks, and thus suggests to me 30 years each (perhaps celebrating a
Sed-festival?). The fourth contains four blocks, the third probably zero blocks,
the second seven blocks and the first eight blocks. Therefore, I propose that
the Lybian Palet can be read as a primative 'kinglist' encompassing a
predynastic period of 280 years prior to Narmer. If Narmer himself also reigned
circa 30 years, this would be a unique
> artefact suggesting information regarding a period of circa 310 years prior
to the First Dynasty. I have also tentatively associated the Owl, read as
'Em', in the first 'fortress', with the mysterious predynastic king Emkha
mentioned on the Palermo Stone. So perhaps these hieroglyphs in the fortresses
were second names of the building Horus-kings.
>
>In any case, I have the following probable order of six predynastic kings:
>
>Ta (Hat-hor?)
>Lion (Thamr or Thamrt?)
>Scorpion II (Serkh or Serkh-an)
>Ro or Iry-hor (first of the family of the double falcon)
>Ka or Ka Ap (second of the family of the double falcon), first king attested in
the Levant
>Nar or Narmer (third of the family of the double falcon), second king attested
in the Levant
>
>So my personal view is that Ka-wy or Ka Ka is most likely just a variant form
of Ka, the first attested Egyptian king in the Egyptian colonies in Southern
Palestine. Variant forms of the name of Narmer have also been found, so this is
not unique. Perhaps the double falcon simply meant 'double kingdom', perhaps
alluding to the conquest of not only Upper and Lower Egypt, but of the combined
area of Egypt and Southern Palestine, and this may have been reflected in the
doubling of the name of Ka himself.
>
>Another possibility is that Ka-wy or Kaui was simply the second name of king
Lion. Inside the 'fortress' of the Lion on the Lybian Palet is a hieroglyph read
as Kau, since it is formed by the two upward held hands (forming Ka) which seem
to be bound by a rope or bar. It may in fact be meant as a double Ka, thus
reading more precisely as Kaui or Ka Ka. The problem is that we lack the
attestation of this name in Egypt itself, so this must remain speculative.
However, if true, then king Lion (Thamr?) or Kaui? was perhaps the real first
conquerer of both Egypt and the Levant, a century prior to the First Dynasty.
>
>Regards,
>Ian Onvlee
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: eliot braun <eliotbraun@...>
>To: ANE <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 9:36:21 AM
>Subject: [ANE-2] Another pre-dynastic Egyptian king discovered
>
> 
>Newly discovered site with new pre-dynastic king.
> 
>In a recent, unpublished salvage project, archaeologist Harrison Lincoln has
unearthed evidence of a small, previously unknown site in the southern Levant.
It appears to be a small campsite used by Egyptians more than 5000 years ago.
For those interested it is located at 31049'12.59" N  -   34007'01.83" (Check
it out on Google Earth) Known as Teleilat (small tells) el Bahri. This 0.3
hectare site has only begun to be excavated, but it has already yielded evidence
of several generations of encampments, apparently tents of a temporary nature
erected on the same site over several generations. It has also yielded a small
repertoire of Egyptian pottery. Included in the finds is a serekh (i.e., an
early royal Egyptian symbol of a monumental building, a tomb, palace or temple)
in which the name of the ruler is written in a special (name) compartment.
> 
>The name of this king, who lived sometime early in Dynasty 0 is one previously
unknown. It is written with the hieroglyph of two raised hands, appearing doubly
and should be read as Ka-wy or Ka Ka. This king Ka Ka is otherwise undocumented,
although some archaeologist working in Egypt may soon turn up his tomb as the
news is full of that type of happening virtually daily. King Ka Ka was
presumably one of the early rulers prior to the unification of Egypt. The double
name is a somewhat unusual form, but another king with a dual name is known for
this early period. His name was written with a double falcon above a serekh and
he is known as "Double Falcon".
>
>Eliot Braun, Ph D
>Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
>Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
>PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
>Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

The broken column behind this window appears at the left and
then at the right of the other photo.  I am quessing that
one of the photos is reversed.

(Well, it is either this, or the ancients discovered quantum
architecture).


_____________________________
Lampros F. Kallenos
Idalion, Lefkosia
Kypros
--

My apologies to one and all; I hope I've not offended any list members.
 
But  it was April 1 and the mood came over me. There is no such king nor any
such serekh, although I admit that in my original posting I added a photo of a
sherd I incised post firing with an image of two pairs of raised hands; the
list administrators removed it. I left a few coarse hints that it was not real;
the name of the photograph file is: fauxserekh.jpg.
 
The non-existent site, meaning the tell of the sea (Bahri is Arabic for sea),
is located, according to the coordinates, somewhere in the Mediterranean off the
coast of the southern Levant. The name has other meanings of an excremental
nature in baby talk. The name of the archaeologist is based on Indiana Jones,
protrayed by Harrison Ford, who became another Ford product; Lincoln Harrison.
  
 
Best wishes to all with the hopes that you had a good April 1.

Eliot Braun, Ph D
Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

--- On Sat, 4/3/10, David Lorton <davidlorton@...> wrote:


From: David Lorton <davidlorton@...>
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Another pre-dynastic Egyptian king discovered
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 2:25 AM


 





-----Original Message-----
>From: Ian Onvlee <sambacats@yahoo. com>
>Sent: Apr 2, 2010 7:55 AM
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
>Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Another pre-dynastic Egyptian king discovered
>
>Hi Eliot,
>
>This is an interesting discovery. I have studied this particular era for over
40 years and have come to the following conclusions.
>
>The double falcon may not have been a separate king, since the two falcons are
always above an empty serekh. It is more likely a kind of family emblem. There
are only three predynastic kings who were buried in a nearly identical type
double or twin tomb: Ro, Ka and Narmer. These three are the successors of king
Scorpion II. At this time the Egyptian colonies in southern Palestine were
flourishing again, and the earliest king attested in these colonies is king Ka,
at the place called Lod. To my mind Ro, Ka and Narmer are the double falcon
kings themselves. The Lybian Palet, usually regarded as showing a set of seven
'fortresses' , is dated to the time of Narmer, but actually seems to show a line
of seven rulers, each portrayed as building some monument or estate. Above the
seventh 'fortress' we are again confronted with two falcons, although each atop
a separate empty serekh, which I take as the two kings Ro and Ka, perhaps
brothers. Above the sixth is
  a
> scorpion, which I take as king Scorpion. Above the fifth is a lion. Above the
first four there was apparently  only a falcon each. Each animal holds a
symbol of 'building', so these animals were most certainly kings. Based on
several other artifacts, I have come to the conclusion that the predecessor of
king Scorpion II may indeed have been a king 'Lion',  probably called Thamr[t].
Additionally I read the square blocks in the 'fortresses' as primitive forms of
the hieroglyph for 'ten' [years]. The last three 'fortresses' contain each three
blocks, and thus suggests to me 30 years each (perhaps celebrating a
Sed-festival? ). The fourth contains four blocks, the third probably zero
blocks, the second seven blocks and the first eight blocks. Therefore, I propose
that the Lybian Palet can be read as a primative 'kinglist' encompassing a
predynastic period of 280 years prior to Narmer. If Narmer himself also reigned
circa 30 years, this would be a
  unique
> artefact suggesting information regarding a period of circa 310 years prior
to the First Dynasty. I have also tentatively associated the Owl, read as
'Em', in the first 'fortress', with the mysterious predynastic king Emkha
mentioned on the Palermo Stone. So perhaps these hieroglyphs in the fortresses
were second names of the building Horus-kings.
>
>In any case, I have the following probable order of six predynastic kings:
>
>Ta (Hat-hor?)
>Lion (Thamr or Thamrt?)
>Scorpion II (Serkh or Serkh-an)
>Ro or Iry-hor (first of the family of the double falcon)
>Ka or Ka Ap (second of the family of the double falcon), first king attested in
the Levant
>Nar or Narmer (third of the family of the double falcon), second king attested
in the Levant
>
>So my personal view is that Ka-wy or Ka Ka is most likely just a variant form
of Ka, the first attested Egyptian king in the Egyptian colonies in Southern
Palestine. Variant forms of the name of Narmer have also been found, so this is
not unique. Perhaps the double falcon simply meant 'double kingdom', perhaps
alluding to the conquest of not only Upper and Lower Egypt, but of the combined
area of Egypt and Southern Palestine, and this may have been reflected in the
doubling of the name of Ka himself.
>
>Another possibility is that Ka-wy or Kaui was simply the second name of king
Lion. Inside the 'fortress' of the Lion on the Lybian Palet is a hieroglyph read
as Kau, since it is formed by the two upward held hands (forming Ka) which seem
to be bound by a rope or bar. It may in fact be meant as a double Ka, thus
reading more precisely as Kaui or Ka Ka. The problem is that we lack the
attestation of this name in Egypt itself, so this must remain speculative.
However, if true, then king Lion (Thamr?) or Kaui? was perhaps the real first
conquerer of both Egypt and the Levant, a century prior to the First Dynasty.
>
>Regards,
>Ian Onvlee
>
>
>
>
>___________ _________ _________ ___
>From: eliot braun <eliotbraun@yahoo. com>
>To: ANE <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>
>Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 9:36:21 AM
>Subject: [ANE-2] Another pre-dynastic Egyptian king discovered
>
> 
>Newly discovered site with new pre-dynastic king.
> 
>In a recent, unpublished salvage project, archaeologist Harrison Lincoln has
unearthed evidence of a small, previously unknown site in the southern Levant.
It appears to be a small campsite used by Egyptians more than 5000 years ago.
For those interested it is located at 31049'12.59" N  -   34007'01.83" (Check
it out on Google Earth) Known as Teleilat (small tells) el Bahri. This 0.3
hectare site has only begun to be excavated, but it has already yielded evidence
of several generations of encampments, apparently tents of a temporary nature
erected on the same site over several generations. It has also yielded a small
repertoire of Egyptian pottery. Included in the finds is a serekh (i.e., an
early royal Egyptian symbol of a monumental building, a tomb, palace or temple)
in which the name of the ruler is written in a special (name) compartment.
> 
>The name of this king, who lived sometime early in Dynasty 0 is one previously
unknown. It is written with the hieroglyph of two raised hands, appearing doubly
and should be read as Ka-wy or Ka Ka. This king Ka Ka is otherwise undocumented,
although some archaeologist working in Egypt may soon turn up his tomb as the
news is full of that type of happening virtually daily. King Ka Ka was
presumably one of the early rulers prior to the unification of Egypt. The double
name is a somewhat unusual form, but another king with a dual name is known for
this early period. His name was written with a double falcon above a serekh and
he is known as "Double Falcon".
>
>Eliot Braun, Ph D
>Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
>Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
>PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
>Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096
>
>
>----------- --------- --------- -------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is from the well known site called Hisham's Palace, just outside of
Jericho; not in Israel.  The site was excavated during the British Mandate for
Palestine period, I believe by Hamilton. It's got an extraordinary series of
beautiful mosaic floors; lots of stone and plaster work decorations, including
some unusual iconography. The Palestinians are, so I understand, working on the
site to make it into a tourist venue of special interest; it was open in the
past but from a friend I understand it will be even more special.
 
There is a good overview on it, with bibliography in the New Encyclopedia of
Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land.
 

Eliot Braun, Ph D
Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

--- On Sat, 4/3/10, jefftrapold@... <jefftrapold@...> wrote:


From: jefftrapold@... <jefftrapold@...>
Subject: Re: [ANE-2] stone mandala somewhere in israel...
To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 12:52 AM


 



Thank you for the information.

Cheers,

Jeffrey Trapold

It is a window grill from the Umayyad palace of Hisham ibn Abd
al-Malik (724-743) or Caliph al-Walid II (743-744) now called Khirbet
al-Mafjar near Jericho in the West Bank.

See

http://www.gardenvi sit.com/assets/ madge/khirbat_ al-mafjar_ 2019_jpg/
600x/khirbat_ al-mafjar_ 2019_jpg_ 600x.jpg

Trudy Kawami

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010, eliot braun wrote:

> My apologies to one and all; I hope I've not offended any list members.
>
> But it was April 1 and the mood came over me. There is no such king nor
> any such serekh, although I admit that in my original posting I added a
> photo of a sherd I incised post firing with an image of two pairs of
> raised hands; the list administrators removed it.
<snip>

This is categorically false.  As noted in the list protocols, *all*
attachments are removed by the yahoo groups listserver before a submitted
posting is seen by the moderators.  You may have been puzzled by the
notice "[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]" that
appears at the end of each message.  This is a notice inserted by the
listserver at yahoo groups and indicates that any attachments have been
removed.

New members (and apparently even those who have been members for four
years) should be aware that *any* attempt to post an attachment to a
message will automatically fail.  This is not a matter of the action of
the moderators but is a result of the list configuration.

If you have a file or image that you would like list members to see for
some reason, either post it on a web server that you have access to or
make arrangements with one of the moderators to post it on the group's
"Photos" or "Files" page and then link to it in your message.

Bob Whiting
whiting@...

I am not a mystical believer, though I've no doubt there were many in the
past, and know little of the subject.  But you asked about a connection
with pot burials - a subject I published on in the 1970's.  I found a
relationship between salt making evidence - Briquetage - and evidence of
the distribution of the Urnfielders in Europe during the Hallstatt
period.  They proceeded east to west but bypassed Brittany until the
later Iron Age (La Tene).

Philosophically the  closest association with the 'mysteries' that I can
come is that salt was seen as one of the 'mysteries' - and to this day
mineral processes are kept secret and locked up in bank vaults (Coco Cola
is one of them as we all know) and I know a saltmaker who keeps his
process locked up in a bank, as did his father before him.   I suppose
what I am suggesting is that philosophical ways were found to cope with
things that were not understood in antiquity.   And alhough 'mystical'
has a religious bent, that differentiates it from 'mysteries' - may, in
this way be connected.

I know I will quic kly be corrected by those more informed if I am wrong
:)

Beatrice



Todd Swanson

>What��remains interesting to me as well is if there is a connection to pot
>burials��as evidenced at Eleusis and other areas throughout the
>Mediterranean and ancient world.
>
>Todd Swanson
>www.eleusinianmysteries.org
>
>��
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: "sbudin@..." <sbudin@...>
>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Mon, March 29, 2010 12:58:02 PM
>Subject: [ANE-2] The pot and the womb
>
>��
>Dear All,
>
>On page 63 of his work _Birth in Babylonia and the Bible_ M. Stol
>remarks concerning parturition: "An incantation is to be recited.
>Several images of streaming water clearly evoke the amniotic water and
>the child that should come out, after 'the pot has been broken.'"
>Can anyone on the list offer any bibliography or suggestions for
>further research on the symbolic association between pots/jars and the
>womb/childbirth? I would really appreciate a response this time.
>
>Stephanie Budin
>Rutgers University, Camden
>
>"Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
>enlightenment! " -Tachikoma
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


Beatrice Hopkinson,
Hon. Secretary Los Angeles Branch, Oxford University Society
Board Member, Archaeological Institute of America
President, Droitwich Brine Springs and Archaeological Trust, U.K
Affilliate, Cotsen institute of Archaeology, UCLA
(beahopkinson@...)

818 766 7780

Article and photos:

http://heritage-key.com/blogs/owenjarus/mycenaean-tombs-discovered-near-mycenae-\
could-be-ancient-egalitarian-society

Antonio Lombatti

----------------------------------
http://www.antoniolombatti.it








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here is a link to an interesting story on N. Syrian late prehistory and the work
being done there by the U. of Chicago and Syrian colleagues.
�
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/science/06archeo.html?ref=global-home

Eliot Braun, Ph D
Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Fran�ais de J�rusalem
PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

there's an obituary here-

http://www.rp-online.de/panorama/deutschland/Theologe-Erich-Zenger-gestorben_aid\
_840336.html

it's the best to appear so far.

--
+++++++
Jim West, ThD

International Workshop: Hellenistic Ceramics in Anatolia (4th to 1st Cent.
B.C.)
October 12-15, 2010 / Izmir, TURKEY

First Circular - Call for Papers

Dear Colleagues,

We are glad to inform you that an international workshop on the ceramics
from Anatolia dating to the Hellenistic Period (4th to 1st cent. BC.) will
take place on October 12th-15th, 2010 at the French Cultural Center of
Izmir, Turkey. We warmly invite contributions by scholars and graduate
students from a variety of disciplines related to this subject. Intended
to bring together Turkish, European, Mediterranean, and North American
scholars to discuss a range of issues concerning Hellenistic ceramics in
Anatolia, this conference should be an excellent opportunity to increase
our knowledge of this material. It also aims to encourage dialogue among
Turkish and European scholars in Hellenistic archaeology of the East. Both
the excavated finds as well as museum pieces are the subject of this
workshop that is offering a firm base for the support of future research
in Turkey concerning ancient pottery studies. Therefore pottery experts as
well as museum curators from Turkey and neighboring countries are kindly
welcome. This three-day workshop with a one-day excursion will contain
both lectures of 20 min. as well as poster presentations.

The conference committee kindly requests that you alert any persons within
your research community who would be interested in participating at this
conference, either by forwarding our e-mail, or by printing first circular
and displaying it in your institution.

The aim of this meeting is to report on the state of research concerning
the Hellenistic ceramics from Anatolia between the 4th and 1st centuries
B.C., or thereabouts. The geographical areas concerned are Turkey and its
close environs; the focus is, however, Asia Minor. The quantities of
Hellenistic ceramics which have come to light on numerous sites, as well
as recent research on the various collections from the geographical area
concerned, now permit us to make significant additions to the
archaeological evidence, thanks to progress in Hellenistic pottery
research in Greece in the last two decades. The workshop has the main
intention to present extensively the less well-known Hellenistic ceramics
from Anatolia and other neighboring countries in the east.

Concentrating on unpublished finds or collections from Anatolia and the
Eastern Mediterranean, the colloquium aims to tackle a series of questions
which can be grouped as five principal interlinked and overlapping themes:
production, trade-distribution, function, decoration and chronology.

All approaches and methods likely to enhance our knowledge on these themes
and questions are of course very welcome: archaeology, archaeometry,
history of art, philology, cultural anthropology, industrial history etc.
Most welcome are papers from excavations in Asia Minor and the rest of the
Eastern Mediterranean producing Hellenistic ceramics and other stratified
finds (small finds, coins etc.) that will help us to build up a more
precise chronology.

Papers and oral presentations can be given in English, French, German,
Italian, Greek or Turkish, but English will be the preferred language for
oral presentations. We would be delighted if you could consider
contributing to this workshop. If you wish to participate, please fill out
the form below and send it to one of the organizers. Please submit an
abstract of no more than 300 words together with the attached registration
form before August 31, 2010 by e-mail (if possible) to:
<hellenistic2010@...>, or by fax to: +90.232.453 41 88.

Entry to the workshop is free of charge for all; accommodation and travel
expenses will be paid by the participants, who should also arrange their
own accommodation as necessary. A post-conference excursion on October 15
is planned to three ceramic collections in Izmir. The proceedings of the
workshop is planned to be published in 2012. Along with the workshop an
exhibition of current Turkish and international archaeological literature
from various publishers will be displayed at the French Cultural Center of
Izmir.

We hope that you will be able to join us at the French Cultural Center,
and look forward to seeing you in Izmir!

Contact Addresses for the Workshop

Prof. Dr. Binnur GURLER
Dokuz Eylul Universitesi
Fen-Edebiyat Fakultesi
Arkeoloji Bolumu
Tinaztepe/Kaynaklar Yerleskesi
Buca

TR-35160 Izmir, TURKEY.
Fax: +90.232.453 41 88.
E-mail: <hellenistic2010@...>.


- Organizing Committee: Prof. Dr. Binnur GURLER (DEU), Doc. Dr. Ergun
LAFLI (DEU), Doc. Dr. Gonca CANKARDES-SENOL (EU), Doc. Dr. Ahmet Kaan
SENOL (EU), Dr. Aygun EKIN MERIC (DEU), Mr. Jean-Luc MAESO (FCCI).


International Workshop
HELLENISTIC CERAMICS IN ANATOLIA
(4th to 1st Cent. BC.)
October 12 – 15, 2010 / Izmir, TURKEY

Registration Form

Please fill in the form and send it back before August 31, 2010. Speakers,
please send us an abstract of no more than 300 words by e-mail, fax, or
mail, by the same date to : <hellenistic2010@...> or per fax to the
number: +90.232.453 41 88.


Type of Participation:
Lecturer / Poster presentation:
Observer:
Family Name:
Name:
Academic Title:
Student:
Graduate:
Undergraduate:
Institution:
Complete Professional Address:



Telephone:
Fax:
E-mail:

Title of Your Lecture:
Joint Authors:


Abstract:
NB: one illustration can be included, if necessary; it should be sent by
e-mail in .tif or .jpg format.