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Verifying my research is correct on ship type   Message List  
Reply Message #4482 of 7176 |
Re: [75years] Verifying my research is correct on ship type

Hi Diana,

A very good source for information is 'The ship' by Bjorn Landstrom. It
seems early cogs were present around 1250, both in Flanders and the
Hanseatic cities. The British Isles were a bit conservative, still relying
on the nef, a direct descendant of the viking knarr. Compared to the cog,
the nef has less draught, very handy in most Eastanglian ports.
As a rule of thumb, the length/width ratio on a cog is 3:1 and the
width/depth ratio is 2:1. Up to the 1930's, the same ratio was used on
'traditional' fishermen's ships in the Netherlands. Nowadays, it's the basis
for many 'traditional' yachts. Interesting to know, in the Kampen area,
there are still two small shipyards that build the 'punter', actually a
miniaturized cog, which has it roots in the late middle ages.
In the late 90's, the 'Kamper kogge' was built overhere. The hull is quite
interesting; the sides are clinker built, yet the bottom is carvel built. We
were quite lucky to have our spring gathering held on and around the Kamper
kogge; some pictures can be found on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lho/ (go
to <photos> and click either <kogge> or <lentegadering>) Most pictures were
taken on board, so there is plenty detail to see (although I have to
apologize for the presence of women aboard a sea-going ship).
Over the past few years, the Kamper kogge has been tested extensively on the
Ysselmeer (the former Zuiderzee) and it shows excellent sailing abilities.
Under full sail, with 4 to 5 Beaufort wind, it logs 8 to 9 knots.
Maybe important for your story, the sail cannot be reefed; instead, the
'basic' sail is rather small and when wind-conditions allow, bonnets are
sewn to it. The Kamper kogge can sport three bonnets. To ease the sewing,
both the sail and the bonnets have eyelets. Although I'm not sure about the
middle ages, in the 16th C it was not uncommon to have the words of a psalm
embroidered above the eyelets, thus making sure that sail and bonnet would
match.

Regards,

Roel

----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Cosby <wulfe6@...>
To: <75years@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 1:06 AM
Subject: [75years] Verifying my research is correct on ship type


> I'm trying to verify that my research is correct on what type of
> 'cargo' ship would have been used in the year 1296.
> In my story, one of my characters is hauling goods from Scotland to
> Europe. After research, I've found that it's more than reasonable to
> use an early cog. The ship in question can be seen at:
> http://www.abc.se/~m10354/mar/cog.htm
> I realize that clinker type ships were still used, but I was looking
> for a ship with a deck, as that of the early cog. Any comments on this
> or if anyone has more detailed pictures or can recommend a site/book of
> a cog during this time period with a deck, I would sincerely appreciate
> it. Thank you for your time.
> Sincerely,
> Diana Cosby
> --
> wulfe6@...
> http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
> "Do the thing you are afraid to do and the death of fear is certain."
> Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
>
>
> Group Website <http://www.liebaart.yucom.be/75years/>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:59 pm

jarleinarsson
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Message #4482 of 7176 |
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Hi Diana! How are you doing? Try finding yourself a copy of "Cogs, Caravels and Galleons: The Sailing Ship 1000-1650", published by Conway Maritime Press,...
Andy Goddard
andybumply Offline Send Email
Oct 18, 2002
8:07 am

Hi Diana, A very good source for information is 'The ship' by Bjorn Landstrom. It seems early cogs were present around 1250, both in Flanders and the Hanseatic...
Roel Oosterop
jarleinarsson Offline Send Email
Oct 18, 2002
9:10 pm

The picture page Roel mentioned is only accessible for members of the LHO-egroup. A site that is accessible for everybody is http://www.kamper-kogge.nl/ (in...
walram1018 Offline Send Email Oct 19, 2002
8:07 am

... Correct. In case it is of interest to you, I have some information on cogs rigged for warfare for you. In fact, the largest sea battle fought in our ...
liebaart Offline Send Email Oct 19, 2002
7:21 am

Hi , ... Cogs are mentioned much earlier than that. In the 12th c they were already used as a way to decide how many men each district or town had to send to...
Henk 't Jong
scapreel Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2002
10:06 am

Hi Henk and all! ... I think this may be the pre-use of the term as-we-know-it. You know, old word, gone/going out of use, applied to a new object. My reading...
Andy Goddard
andybumply Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2002
11:13 am

I read an Osprey book, and the author mentions an enormous ship carrying the inhabitants of Acre to safety when it fell (In 1271?). He says that ship could...
jaspermay87 Offline Send Email Oct 21, 2002
12:30 pm

Hi Jasper! ... Almost! 1291. ... Thankfully, icebergs in the Eastern Med are rather rare. :-) Andy G (working on your other off-list email)...
Andy Goddard
andybumply Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2002
12:41 pm

... Hhmmmm... Strange... I was also quoting from Verbruggen. His 1991 book "Vlaanderen na de Guldensporenslag". There is 31 years between the book De Graaf...
Joris - De Liebaar...
liebaart Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2002
1:35 pm

Joris: Thanks for the pictures & commentary! What an interesting ship. Living in the high mountain desert region of NV, I have no experience w/ boats &...
Jennifer Hill
welshladygwen Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2002
5:24 pm

... For sure. ... They took these vessels "all the way", meaning just as far as the known world of those days. And yes, Hansa is the same as Hanseatic League....
Joris - De Liebaart...
liebaart Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2002
5:52 pm

Hello, ... already used as a way to decide how many men each district or town had to send to the wars of the counts of Holland. These were called 'riemtalen' ...
Roel Oosterop
jarleinarsson Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2002
9:03 pm

An interesting article is: K. Vlierman De middeleeuwse kogge: scheepsarcheologische vondsten in het Zuiderzeegebied. In: Holland en het Water in de...
walram1018 Offline Send Email Oct 21, 2002
10:13 pm

Hello Jasper, ... The Venetians were known for big ships. However, these ships only performed well in the Mediterrean. Just like their Roman ancestors, the...
Roel Oosterop
jarleinarsson Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2002
9:16 pm

Hello Gwen, ... She would and even beyond! Both the cog replicas I know of (the 'Bremen' and the 'Kampen') are very seaworthy. Joris' pictures show a very...
Roel Oosterop
jarleinarsson Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2002
10:07 pm

Hi Andy, ... word, gone/going out of use, applied to a new object. My reading suggests that the cog, technologically (straight stem, flat bottomed, fully ...
Henk 't Jong
scapreel Offline Send Email
Oct 26, 2002
2:11 pm

Hi Henk! ... Certainly there's a famous Rhinish Roman-era boat of that form: basically a big hollowed-out trunk with built-up sides. <Lack of Archaeology> ... ...
Andy Goddard
andybumply Offline Send Email
Oct 27, 2002
10:53 pm

Iacobus dictus Estonicus salutem omnium in DNO sempiternam As the medieval naval history has not been a particular field of interest for me I was at first...
jacobusestonicus
jacobuseston... Offline Send Email
Oct 28, 2002
8:51 am

... the whole ... way of ... even have ... and ... information for a ... That's an interesting opinion, Andy. It would imply that a corpse is not necessarily...
walram1018 Offline Send Email Oct 28, 2002
9:16 pm

Hi Roel, ... relying on Landstrom, their ships were completely different, being direct descendants of the viking knarr. I know Landstrom takes the ships on the...
Henk 't Jong
scapreel Offline Send Email
Oct 26, 2002
2:11 pm

Hello Henk, ... already appears in the 9th c and is of frisian origin. It seems to be derived from the latin word for 'made out of treetrunk' caudiceus and...
Roel Oosterop
jarleinarsson Offline Send Email
Oct 26, 2002
8:50 pm

Hello Henk, ... as examples for his reconstruction drawings, but all Cinque Ports were regularly visited by Hanse merchants and by the late 13th c might have...
Roel Oosterop
jarleinarsson Offline Send Email
Oct 26, 2002
9:04 pm

Hi Jaak! ... That's all well in line with what I said earlier about cogs in Flanders and the battle of Zierikzee, 80 years later than when this chronicle was ...
Joris - De Liebaar...
liebaart Offline Send Email
Oct 28, 2002
1:02 pm

Hi Kees 'n' Colin! ... Ha! I'll come back to that in a moment. I stand by what I wrote - and I think this /is/ an important point worth re-stressing - the...
Andy Goddard
andybumply Offline Send Email
Oct 29, 2002
2:26 pm

Hi Andy, ... Absolutely right! Sometimes, even smaller flaws can lead to disaster; as a ship, the 'Mary Rose' was quite good, yet her open gunports caused a ...
Roel Oosterop
jarleinarsson Offline Send Email
Nov 2, 2002
1:41 am

Hi Roel, You wrote: ?Now, what do you mean with 'real ships'? Real built up ships as opposed to dug out tree trunks or rafts. ... Then I'm wrong in commission;...
Henk 't Jong
scapreel Offline Send Email
Nov 2, 2002
11:32 am

Hi Roel, ... as examples for his reconstruction drawings, but all Cinque Ports were regularly visited by Hanse merchants and by the late 13th c might have been...
Henk 't Jong
scapreel Offline Send Email
Nov 2, 2002
11:32 am

Hello Henk, ... OK, then we'll agree that the 'Utrecht' ship is NOT a real ship. ... So? I referred to the mediterrean ships, not the atlantic vessels! What ...
Roel Oosterop
jarleinarsson Offline Send Email
Nov 2, 2002
10:41 pm

Hi Henk, ... anchored or moored at the Cinque Ports and that kogges were not known in the English sea ports. I won't deny that, but this doesn't mean the...
Roel Oosterop
jarleinarsson Offline Send Email
Nov 2, 2002
11:22 pm

Hi Roel! ... Well...be careful...all the seals I've seen from English port towns seem to show round stemmed/sterned craft with steer-boards and no rudders till...
Andy Goddard
andybumply Offline Send Email
Nov 2, 2002
11:59 pm
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